Around $97,500 In Debt

Tommy: Wait a minute! Frostface!

Matt: The Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show episode 247.

Matt: Matt DiVella back again.

Josh: It's Sydney.

Tommy: How long are you in Sydney for?

Matt: I'm in Sydney until January 4th and then we're out. Yeah, it's nice.

Josh: How many times have you been to Australia?

Matt: You know, this is my 4th time. I've been here for 3 weddings. Really? Yeah. And then one was just for a holiday visit. Yeah, all Natalie's friends. I don't have any Australian friends besides you guys.

Tommy: Flies over to crash weddings.

Matt: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: That's a big commitment to come back. Like, do you see the LA to Sydney flight as something— it's like super laborsome because I know a lot of Americans are like, bro, that's so far away where you live.

Matt: Yeah, it's— the LA is not as bad as the—

Josh: you've got a bit of bamboo, a little bit of bamboo on my mic. It's all good.

Matt: Um, uh, the, the New York trip was tough because that's like 23 hours, 2 flights, and the entire like— you're getting your sleep schedule back is really tough, but Now, having been in Sydney for a couple of days, I feel like I'm already on my schedule. I feel like I'm like into my routine and I don't get too tired at night. So I think like the LA difference is not as bad.

Josh: Daylight savings and stuff. I think it all lines up pretty nicely.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's only 5-hour time difference, although it is a day and a half ahead. It's 5 hours in terms of your circadian rhythm.

Tommy: Yeah, but I also think people who say I didn't get jet lag, they're assholes. Yeah, because like, who doesn't?

Matt: Yeah.

Josh: People who say circadian rhythm are also assholes.

Matt: Nat calls me a shithead for saying circadian rhythm. She's like, what do you always call that again? And I'm like, is that what it's called? Is that— I don't know, I guess. Yeah, it is like you're just your natural rhythm of sleep. Yeah.

Josh: Have you ever done like melatonin?

Matt: Yeah, we do. I mean, you guys, the melatonin, it's like hard to come by here, or you have to get a prescription, I think, melatonin. But yeah, because Nat makes her, uh, or Nat's mom makes her bring like bottles in. That actually might be illegal. Is this live?

Tommy: Yeah.

Matt: No, but we don't edit.

Tommy: We asked you earlier, did you, uh, declare— have to declare anything? When you came to the country?

Matt: No, no, no. Yeah, just the melatonin, but we didn't declare it. Um, yeah, it's also expensive as fuck.

Josh: Does it actually work?

Matt: Yeah, you know, it works. It— not the melatonin, it's not expensive. I meant mostly just travelling here. Melatonin, it's pretty damn affordable. But the, uh, if you know a guy, the melatonin is good, but it— there's a tolerance that goes away, and it's typically only good for travel. Like, if you're trying to implement it every single day, it's, it's not going to make much of a difference in the long run.

Tommy: All right, um, Just describe what you're seeing right there.

Matt: Oh my God, it's amazing. We have like local fauna. Is that birds?

Josh: Yeah, I don't know. It's up there with cicadas.

Matt: So these birds— I run a nature channel.

Tommy: We're on the Sydney Harbour near the Opera House. This is like the Botanical Gardens of Sydney. Those birds are also known as sky rats.

Josh: And bin chicken bins?

Tommy: Chicken. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: They're bin—

Tommy: garbage. Bin rats.

Matt: I actually the other day when I was in Sydney, I was filming them from like for a part of my video and then Somebody came by me and said, "Ugly fucking bird." I was like, I don't know, I thought it looked kind of cool.

Tommy: But yeah, no, they're— what would you— what would the same be? Maybe it's like a pigeon.

Josh: So what's something in America?

Matt: No, not in looks, but in terms of gross.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, it's so annoying but kind of cute.

Matt: Crows are scary as hell. I don't know, I would say like— yeah, no, maybe you don't even have any of these things.

Tommy: Do you guys have crows?

Matt: Uh, yeah, well, we have crows in LA, like creepy as hell.

Josh: The black—

Matt: ah, yeah, like they're big. And there were a few of them that I think that they were following me around, like from street to street, and it was sketchy.

Tommy: They're, um, YouTube followers that are stalking you, just like in a crow outfit.

Josh: Do you know, I, um, when I was growing up, my mum told me that Santa had birds and the birds were always watching. As a way of making sure that I was keep being good. And crows, for whatever reason, there was heaps of crows in my primary school, and I would always think that they were watching to make sure I was good.

Tommy: The lie runs deep.

Matt: Yeah, that's rough, dude.

Josh: Do you know any family members that are like Elf on the Shelfing? Have you heard of Elf on the Shelf?

Tommy: No, what is that?

Josh: Elf on the Shelf is this magical elf around Christmas time. Yeah, and he's doing all these crazy things. You guys don't know. Glad that we're doing a bit of elf banter. It isn't even Christmas anymore, guys.

Matt: It's not. It's well past.

Josh: It's Boxing Day.

Tommy: Yeah, it's Boxing Day. So do you have Boxing Day in the States?

Matt: Uh, we don't celebrate Boxing Day. What do you guys— do you guys celebrate Boxing Day?

Tommy: We celebrate it with buying a whole bunch of shit.

Josh: I don't think we celebrate. We don't really celebrate.

Tommy: There's no celebration. A Boxing Day Test is a cricket match in here that's like epic.

Josh: MCG in Melbourne happening.

Tommy: So in terms of, right, I guess that's a ritual that is every year. But then there's the sales, the Boxing Day sales, which opens at like— would have opened this morning like 5 AM some places.

Josh: Just like, well, over Christmas, deals, deals, deals. Over Christmas, Chadstone was doing like 30-something hour non-stop, like a shopping centre was doing like non-stop trading.

Tommy: That's just New York.

Josh: Yeah, is that every night? Yeah, but the— I feel like Australia has a way of taking Americanisms or American holidays, but doesn't necessarily go the other way. We've gotten into Black Friday.

Tommy: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Josh: And then Cyber Monday.

Tommy: Yep. It's the equivalent, I think, of Black Friday. I'd never heard of Black Friday until I was a grown adult.

Matt: Yeah. It's probably more recent that it's come over here.

Josh: Is Boxing Day an actual thing in the States though?

Matt: It's on all of our calendars and nobody knows what it means.

Josh: Oh, interesting.

Matt: What is Boxing Day? Is that like for boxing fighting or what?

Josh: People have no idea.

Matt: Yeah. I don't think most people have no idea what it is. I don't know. What is— like, do you know?

Josh: I think it's like boxing up presents or something to return. I don't know what the deal.

Tommy: I could have something to do with the Elf on the Shelf.

Josh: No, I think as little knowledge on what Boxing Day is.

Matt: This is an expert podcast for experts.

Josh: No, I think it's, um, maybe a British thing. I feel like it's got the British vibe.

Tommy: Either way, it's centred around buying shit in Australia.

Matt: Yeah, we do that very well in America.

Josh: What's a weird thing that you're discovering around Australia? What's some weird shit that we do?

Matt: You know, I feel like people try to point out the differences because it's fun between Australia and America. Yeah, as in like, oh, you know, like the waiters, the waiters in America, like they just, they don't get it like Australians. Or like, but then I hear it from both sides where some people are like, the Australian, uh, or American waiters are so quick, they're so happy, they're so cheerful, so nice because they're getting tips, they're getting tips. But then I've also heard the opposite, that it's like, you know what, just the Australians, they just, they just care more when they're waiting on people.

Josh: Really?

Matt: Yeah, that's what I've heard. But then I'm also like, I just don't know who to believe anymore. And then it's also like, I just— the work culture is definitely a big, I guess, point of debate.

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: But I think the spectrum's wide, so— are so varied in that like you will have the corporate culture of America. Yeah. Which can be kind of challenging to navigate. There's a lot of politics involved. It can be very stressful and demanding. And then you have— and strict. And then you have the startup culture and world, which is a little bit more laid back. You drink on Friday night, happy hour. Yeah.

Tommy: What is that?

Josh: You wear hoodies.

Matt: You wear hoodies. Yeah. It's like the same kind of things that people complain about in the corporate structure of like being like, well, women could never get away with wearing a hoodie. You can do that in a startup. And I think anybody could get away with wearing a hoodie. So it's like, it's very hard to make a blanket statement. Between even American culture in general versus another culture. So I just gave you the shittiest answer.

Josh: I want to know, like, when do you—

Tommy: I was still thinking about Elf on the Shelf personally.

Josh: When do you feel most out of place though? What feels like culturally— there's got to be things where it's like, for me, going to Starbucks.

Tommy: He looked at me when you said takeout. You said you were getting coffee before and you— I don't know if you were just looking at me because you were like, you want one? But you said, um, to go, to go.

Matt: To go.

Tommy: Where we say, do you want that takeaway?

Josh: Takeaway. Yeah.

Matt: We don't say to go. Yeah. Or even you would say bill, I think, instead of check.

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: Like, what do you mean check? What do you mean check? I think that's mainly the big difference is just like subtle language cues. And it takes a while to kind of pick up on it. Like the avos and avos, avocado, avo toast, or the next avo.

Josh: Next avo.

Matt: Afternoon. Afternoon.

Tommy: Yeah.

Matt: Did I pronounce it wrong? Natalie and I were in—

Tommy: You pronounced it right if you're from America. You said avo.

Josh: An avo, like I couldn't tell the first time. Were you trying to say avo?

Matt: And I corrected you. I was trying to say afternoon. I was trying to say afternoon the whole time. It was afternoon. But I remember Nat and I were in IKEA and IKEA is just, you guys don't have IKEA here.

Josh: Yeah, you do.

Matt: Very tough store to get through.

Tommy: Absolutely.

Matt: It's like, it's stressful on your relationship. We always said that they should have like, you know, they have a section for each thing in your home and they should just have like family therapy at the end of it to get through all your problems that you had that came up while through the store. But at one point We were going through and she's like, oh, we need to go to the dresses next. I was like, the dresses? They don't sell dresses here. And why would you ever buy a dress at IKEA? She's like, no, we need to get the dresses. Let's go to the dresses. And then it was legit like a good minute, a solid minute of me being like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. And then she said, no, the dressers. And she was trying to say, and I said, okay, say dressers and then say dresses. And it was the same. It was identical. There was absolutely no difference. So it's been tough. It's been tough on our relationship.

Josh: The minimalism stuff, given that we're a day after Christmas and Boxing Day is all about buying shit.

Tommy: Everyone's got crap they don't need right now.

Josh: What year was it that you decided that you were a #minimalist?

Matt: #minimalist. It was, I want to say, 2010. I just graduated from college with $97,000 in debt.

Tommy: Congratulations.

Matt: Yeah, thank you. Maybe that's something that we do a little bit different.

Josh: Yeah, it sounds like the perfect lie though, because it really does. $100,000 would sound bullshit, like, yeah, full bullshit. But $97,000, you're like, ah, it's a very specific number. What was the breakdown of that cost? That was literally just your school?

Matt: That was all student loan debt. Yeah, it was, and it was categorised into different places that I had gotten borrowed loans from. But it also, it's funny that you mentioned that because my brother has made one of those soundboards where you click a different thing and it has a different sound on it of me. And it has, I have said over the years, $95,000, $96,000, $97,000, and $100,000. And I never said 99.

Tommy: What is it?

Matt: Uh, I'm almost certain it's 97. It comes from my memory of just being like, I'm pretty sure the highest I remember it being was like 97,500-something.

Tommy: The crazy thing is you actually, if you're not sure and it's that much money, regardless of 5, 6, or 7, well, at that point it doesn't matter.

Josh: Like, it feels like, I guess, the difference between 97 and 102. Like, when you're talking about that, such a high number.

Matt: Yeah, it was over $95,000, and that's all that matters, really.

Josh: And you bought a car?

Matt: Oh yeah, then I bought a brand new car, which was a Kia. Wasn't a nice car, but it was still a new car. And then I ended up being like $118,000 in debt.

Josh: So how much was the car?

Matt: So the car was about $22,000.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so what was it? Because I feel like the States have a different model in the way they do car financing. Did you— yeah, what was the deal?

Tommy: Anyone can get it?

Josh: Yeah. Well, I feel like it's normally like also there's a bunch of Uber drivers where it's like, yeah, I just bought like 6 Priuses and I've got my cousins all driving.

Matt: Yeah, that's crazy.

Tommy: Uh, it's got an entrepreneur, Josh.

Matt: That is one thing I've heard, like maybe dumb. Yeah, well, I think Australians don't— you guys don't lease cars, right? Or like you don't finance cars, you generally will buy a used car.

Josh: I feel like in the States, finance car. Yeah, like I feel like normally we don't really talk about like the the monthly payment as the advertise— like from an advertising point of view, where it seems like in the States they'll be like, you can get a Camry for $199 a month. Is that sort of the— is that how you bought your car? Were you seeing the monthly repayments?

Matt: No, I think I was a little bit more practical in that I just figured, okay, this is how much money it's going to cost, and it's going to take 5 years until I'm able to pay it off. Yeah. So, but, you know, I kind of looking back on it, I definitely would not have bought a new car right out of college with that amount of debt.

Josh: Who do you blame for financial stupidity?

Matt: Parents.

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: Now, I mean, my parents weren't great with money and I don't blame them for my lack of knowledge.

Josh: Which of them had the bad habits?

Matt: I just don't know if I was ever taught good habits.

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: And I think that's the thing for most people is they just don't know what to do. And maybe we do see commercials for buying a new car, or mostly it's probably social peer pressure of seeing people maybe that have more money or don't buying or getting the leased car. Uh, everybody's going to college, so you feel that peer pressure to go to college as well, to pay that debt, uh, to get all those student loans. And then it wasn't until I got out of college that I realised how trapped I was, having moved home, having all this debt, not being able to like live on my own. That I realised I needed to make a change and I had to start looking at my finances. And that was when I found minimalism, which helped me to just reprioritize where I was focusing my time and where I was spending my money.

Tommy: Is it a moment of looking and finding some information going, I'm fucked? Or, I mean, because when you're in a situation, you're in debt, it's kind of— there's a lot of justification going on. There's— it is your— it's, it's your reality. So Is there a moment where you kind of have this penny drop moment, which is like, I need to get out, this is the solution?

Matt: Yeah, I think there has to become a moment where you actually face it. Because I think for most people, especially with people in consumer credit card debt, they just don't even look at their bank accounts. They're afraid to even look to see what their next statement balance is.

Josh: Did you think about the debt much when you were going into college? Because I think I just feel like in Australia we have like HECS and stuff like that where it's like Bree's paying back a small like HELP loan or whatever, which was like from when she was— did a course. Well, I remember—

Tommy: Well, it only kicks in when you earn over a certain amount of money.

Josh: Well, she wasn't even really thinking about it, but now like money is going out of her pay each month to be able to pay it. Is it the same in the States or do you feel like you're more attached with know this is how much it is and you're going to have to pay it.

Matt: You think, oh, that's just a problem for future Matt, you know what I mean? Like, you don't think— and you think, oh, well, I'm gonna be making good money when I graduate, so, uh, but really, like, if you don't— or if you aren't proactive with it and you have the kind of debt that I had, you'd be paying that off until you're 40-plus years old. And that's kind of insane.

Josh: Do people get mortgages whilst still having—

Matt: oh, all the time.

Josh: Yeah, that debt. Yeah.

Tommy: Does it contribute to your Although, like, so we have like a credit score here and you can see how much debt you've got and you'd have to declare that. You have to declare your student debt in America when going for a mortgage.

Matt: Uh, you do have to do it. Like, I think it factors into your credit score and actually in a fucked up way it probably makes your credit score better to have debt.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: Uh, which is the screwed up part where—

Tommy: I'm sure that you can pay it back so they can pay it back and it's like borrow more.

Matt: Yeah, yeah. And there's like a kind of credit card utilisation score which is like the percentage of debt you have versus what you're paying off.

Josh: Australia has something really different because I know, I remember I read, I think it was Ramit Sethi's I'll Teach You How to Be Rich, and his sort of advice around getting credit cards doesn't necessarily translate to the Australian credit score system.

Tommy: Well, if you look at what you've done, I think, and I've had some friends push back on those people who say don't go, don't like a blanket No credit cards. Do not ever get yourself into serious debt. It's like you have learned a lot from being in it. It's not to say you'd ever encourage people to actually go and do it.

Josh: Serious debts isn't that bad.

Matt: I mean, I see where you're going. It's actually a good point. It's very hard to say that it was a good thing even though I got so much out of it. It actually changed my relationship with money, which was the best thing ever, is that when I was paying off my debt, I didn't see any money that was coming in as mine. I was making money as a freelance filmmaker. I was building up my business, and I was able to— like, I had a crazy goal in the beginning to pay off all my debt in 2 years, which is just absurd, especially because at the time I had like only had $20 in my bank account. That's not a made-up number because it's round. It was like, it was like, I think I overdrew my account and I had to borrow money from my mom, and I had no money, and I didn't have a lot of prospects coming in. And then just over the next 2 years I really grew my business quickly. Not enough to pay off all of that, but I ended up paying off all my debt in 4 and a half years. And it was like this mentality of this money that I'm making isn't mine, and so I'm not going to be spending it on myself. I'm not going to be buying myself too much shit that I don't need. Minimalism helped in that regard too, but it was like, I just need to get out of this. And then when I got out of debt, I still kind of had that same relationship with money where I still am a little bit more frugal. I don't like spend excess money, and I'm a little bit a little bit more mindful with where my money goes.

Tommy: Otherwise known as a tight-ass.

Matt: Tight-ass, yeah, exactly.

Josh: Do you budget when it comes to like how much you spend on food?

Matt: No, no, and like I really am not that—

Josh: Like a tuna guy? I feel like you'd be like a can of tuna.

Matt: Yeah, I like tuna. Like a good can of tuna. It's a good salad meal, a lot of protein.

Josh: I feel like you are a can of tuna.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. A can of tuna for the money or for the protein?

Matt: Protein, for sure. Yeah. Well, and the taste, I like the taste too. And it's an easy meal. You got to worry about the mercury. Got to worry about the mercury. So I used to—

Tommy: All right, Tony Robbins.

Josh: No, I think it was, uh, I used to have one a day. Like, Josh got like, uh, it was either Josh or Ryan, one of the Josh did got done from The Minimalists.

Matt: Yeah, he's had a lot of health problems and like just mercury was just kind of like, and might as well throw that in there. Why not throw it on top? And, uh, but Yeah, no, I've been mindful of the mercury, but it's a solid meal.

Josh: Do you get like plain or do you get like chilli oil?

Matt: No, I just get the plain with— in olive oil though.

Josh: Okay, this is a foodie Dari segment. Yeah, I love talking about food, especially like what people eat. The, um, when you were paying back that money, that would have been the time where one of your clients was a company called Vidler.

Matt: Oh, for sure.

Josh: Um, I remember Gary Vee being like on Vidler, even like, like Gary Vee, who you're gonna have on your, um, YouTube channel pretty soon in January, he, um, he talks a lot about like being on YouTube in the early days, but I reckon he put all of his money initially and energy into Vidler.

Tommy: So he was a— so what is Vidler?

Matt: Vidler was like an early— Vidler was a video hosting site early on. That was actually a competitor with YouTube, and it was pretty on par in the beginning, and then YouTube just took off, and Vidler ended up becoming more niche. They provided a little bit different services, so like they had annotations. Annotations. You could click on a point in the timeline, and it helped for adding chapters and letting people know where it is in the video, and you could do custom branding, which you couldn't do on YouTube. And Gary Vee was an early investor in the company, as well as he used it for his Wine Library show early on. And I actually did an interview with Gary, probably a year or two, maybe 2012, I guess. And did like a sit-down interview with him just about content and stuff. And he kind of talked about that. But it's funny because—

Tommy: Is that out?

Matt: Is that out? The interview?

Tommy: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, but that was with Vidler. Like, Vidler was paying me to do that as a client testimonial type piece. Because he was an investor but also used it as a client.

Josh: Because I remember it, like, Vidler back in maybe '06, '07. '07, would that have been the year that you're working on it?

Matt: 2010 is when I worked with them, but they were around for 4 years.

Josh: And what's the learning of having a client that's a startup? What did you actually learn working with these businesses?

Matt: Now, that was one of the best clients that I had up front because they were my first retained client, really, where they paid me money, a couple thousand bucks a month. To make videos for them. And it was the first amount of consistency that I had. And then it is so important to have that kind of consistent money coming in, or at least having a good amount of money come in, because then I could say no to the projects that I didn't really care about. Although, like, for the most part, I was just saying yes to everything because I was like, I need to make money to pay off my debt so I can move the hell out of my parents' house. But it was like, you know, I think you learn so much from experience in those early years that you can't learn from a book. Yeah, you have to actually get the experience dealing with a client, screwing up on a deadline, uh, you know, figuring out managing expectations.

Tommy: I have to learn the hard way. Like, it's one of the only ways that it really cements in my head, my thick skull of don't do it like that again.

Josh: Yeah, you need to burn your finger on the stove.

Tommy: 100%. I've burnt my hands so many times. Sometimes I don't learn and I go, yeah, fuck, that's hot.

Matt: Yeah, I did that again.

Tommy: Again.

Matt: Yeah.

Josh: And so the finance stuff that you learned within business, has that just translated to everyday life, the personal stuff, or do you see running a business versus running personal finances different things?

Matt: Well, I think it's very similar because they're so like intertwined in my life and my work life is very much my personal life because I love what I do. And I think that becomes difficult in like separating, period. It's like, when do you shut off?

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: When do you stop thinking about your work? When you stop thinking about what you're gonna say on the next podcast or what video you're gonna make next week?

Tommy: Um, I think that's the beauty.

Matt: Yeah. You think about what you make. Um, but it— so that is the difficult part, I think, about being in a creative field is having time where you truly shut down and shut off. But then again, it's like, it's, it's, I mean, we're very lucky to be in a place where we get to do what we love.

Tommy: You know that for me, that place, I haven't been there because I'm not a kid anymore, but it was when I was a kid and you'd be sick and you'd be in bed and you'd stay home from school and you just watch movies. I just remember that as like, what else was I thinking about? Not school. What else did I have going on? Fuck all. And as you get older and you've got responsibilities and business and, you know, social life and family, kids, it's like, wow, there's, there's not much time that you truly can have to yourself where you're removing— look, because you can't— you could, you could disconnect from the responsibilities for a moment, but you need to re-engage and get back to reality. I think it's, it's, it sounds hard, it sounds like a bad existence when I say it like that, but if you can find a life that you actually love. And I think freelance and having your own business for me is like that place where it's hard as it is. And as much as I think about it, you wouldn't— if it was a job and I was thinking about it like this, I'd get out.

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: And you wouldn't want it to be easy.

Tommy: No.

Matt: Because if it was easy, then you wouldn't be challenged. You wouldn't have difficult problems to solve. Uh, I think it's just to make sure that the stress doesn't become too much, that it negatively impacts your life. And that you bring it home or you bring it into your relationships. But overall, it's like, yeah, you kind of want it to be a little bit difficult and you want to push yourself, right, to do shit that maybe you don't think, or at one point you never thought you could do.

Tommy: One of your last videos, Slow Down, was it Slow the Fuck Down?

Matt: It was Slow Down, but in the video I say slow. I don't curse in my titles, but I do curse in my videos.

Tommy: Okay, no, I was wondering, um, what— I've watched it, but explain to us what what the thinking of that, because it seems like it came at a time where from the outside looked like it could be a breakdown.

Matt: I didn't want it to make it look like that.

Josh: No, but yeah, yeah, right, right, right, right.

Matt: That's why I was worried it was going to come across like that, because— and I tried to clear— clarify that in the video.

Josh: That's great, I love it.

Tommy: Build some, uh, some hype around the breakdown that's happening. Shaves his head, chases paparazzi.

Matt: Yeah, but I think She gets married in Vegas, literally.

Tommy: Lots of shit's happening.

Josh: She becomes a travelling minimalist blogger.

Tommy: Well, lots of shit's happening.

Matt: Gives it up.

Tommy: And so what's going on? Tell us about that.

Matt: Oh, yeah. So, OK. That was— when we talked about this previously, it's like this idea of consistency. That was the thing that got me here. But then it's maybe not— I mean, consistency, I think, will always be important. But also, we set these unrealistic pressures on ourselves sometimes that I have to do this, I have to make a video every week, I gotta make a podcast every week, and I could never take a break, I could never take off. And I was putting a lot of work into my videos, and I was also travelling a lot, so it was difficult to manage both. And I felt like I was working every weekend, and like, it's not like— so I would take like 2 weeks to be in Sydney, and I would work a little bit but not a lot, and So there, it wasn't like I was just nonstop grinding, working every single day, but it just felt like a lot travelling and then working and trying to make enough videos and keep my content going that I was like making these 8 to 10 minute documentaries basically every week, the same amount of energy I would into an 8 minute documentary. And I was like, all right, I need to like just relax. I need to pump the brakes a little bit. And I actually, so I released this video, it's like, it's time to slow down., and it was just kind of talking about this, of feeling like you have to keep going. And then I was like, let me just like, I just want to take a little bit of a break. And the idea was, I think I was going to take, it was just about slowing down, but like I didn't, I wasn't going to take a break. I wasn't actually planning on taking a week off, but then everybody in the comments was like, Matt, enjoy the time off. We'll see you when you get back. And I was like, oh, I could take a week off. I was maybe going to take like, uh, the next video off, but then I was going to keep the podcast going and all this other stuff. And I was like, maybe what if I just the next week, I just I just take completely off and I don't upload a video and I don't upload a podcast, which I had done 16 months straight.

Tommy: What were the things that you came up with as to why you shouldn't do that?

Josh: Uh, why you shouldn't have a break?

Tommy: Why you shouldn't take that week off?

Matt: If I don't take that week off, then likely the next video I post is gonna— it's gonna be hurt. Maybe the YouTube algorithm will punish me because I haven't remained consistent. Maybe people will forget about me because it's been 2 weeks since they've seen a video from me. I think it's a lot of things that obviously, like, it's laughable. It sounds like nonsense, but those are the things that you kind of think about. And also the fact that I'm like, I could manage it, like it wouldn't burn me out. But I'm like, maybe I do need a couple of days where I can just maybe work a couple of hours and not like work 10 hours a day.

Josh: Do you think it's slightly hypocritical that you put out that but also at the same time you've had this huge amount of success over the last few, 3 or 4 months of doing that, right?

Matt: Yeah, I guess how would that be hypocritical?

Josh: Well, just like the— you putting in that time, putting in the effort, putting in that work to then say, I want to take a break, or that you don't need to work this hard. Do you sort of feel like you struggle to take your own advice in that regard?

Tommy: Yeah.

Matt: And I think, I mean, that's like what happens in a lot of my videos is that this is advice that I'm trying to keep up with myself and I'm not perfect.

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: Like I've talked about before, like productivity and minimalism and scheduling time to cheque emails. That's my ideal version of my life. That's what I try to do.

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: And like oftentimes, and then when I made the video, that's what I was doing. Yeah. And then 3 weeks later I'm checking emails every fucking 10 minutes because I'm a human.

Tommy: Yeah. We slip into bad habits. The book, Josh, from the guys that made Basecamp. Yeah, Rework.

Josh: Yeah, you don't have to work so hard.

Tommy: Work doesn't have to be crazy. Yeah, I started reading that and that's just fascinating. Their turnover, I sort of did some diving into how much their company's worth with the staff that they have. It's like 50 staff. Yeah, they turn over as much as Atlassian.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: That has 1,100 staff. And those guys, so fascinating about the culture that they've built at their workplace around not having to sort of be crazy at work. And it's so funny because it's— you could, you could look at going the opposite way of working your ass off, and it will probably work as well as this. Maybe it's harder to go down the approach that they've taken of like like, let's have some strict rules, no working on the weekends, no— what do you think about relating that to what you've done?

Matt: Yeah, I mean, well, it's a great point, and I think that, like, uh, Josh, the point that you brought up is very good too, is like, just like, is that a little hypocritical? But I think that you actually do need to sprint. Yeah, you need to work really fucking hard in the beginning.

Josh: I think the point is that it's a paradox, right? That I think people take one thing and they say, well, like I, the, the people who don't need to hear it end up hearing it and they end up doing less work. The people who aren't fucking working hard enough are like, oh, Matt's saying that I don't need to work as hard. But the fact is that they actually need to be hearing the opposite advice.

Matt: I think I, I don't know if I cut this out of the video, but I think that I said maybe this advice isn't for you. Maybe right now you need to work. The advice for you is to what I followed 2 months ago, which was to bust my ass to get to a point where I can finally slow down. Yeah, but it's like we have a limited amount of runway if you're trying to pursue, uh, like an unconventional path as a freelance filmmaker, creative. Like, you have a runway and you have to make money. And if you take your time and if you have— try to have a balanced life and you're waking up in the morning and doing yoga, and then you're maybe working for 2 hours in the day, like, you haven't earned that yet.

Josh: It feels like we, we can as a society get a bit soft where it's like we want it all, where it's like We want to be able to quit our 9-to-5 jobs to replace it with a 9-to-5 job that's on our terms and expect to make the same amount, if not more money. Whereas like the way that I started making my money outside of 9-to-5 was working really hard. And at the beginning you need to like correct the other way, I feel like if this is what you want, like I'm more comfortable, I feel like, to put in more time than I would be before. Because rather than working for the man, it's like I'd prefer to spend 12 or 14 hours doing stuff that's gonna push me forward.

Tommy: Here's the other paradox. What about the person who's listening that has worked their fucking ass off and has for years, but they actually haven't got the success that they thought they'd get out of it? Because then they're like, if I stop working this hard I don't know what's gonna happen.

Josh: There's people who put out probably 5 videos every single week on YouTube who have less than 1,000 subscribers. So it's—

Matt: do something different. Stop doing the same thing. Yeah, like if I kept doing the same thing that I did on week 1 of starting my YouTube channel as to now, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have the channel I have.

Josh: But that's the paradox again, which is like, be consistent but stop doing the same thing. Yeah, I mean, you have to experiment.

Matt: You got to experiment and you got to mix things up. And it is like That's where your personal experience and your gut comes into play, where you have to be like, am I— is it just that my audience hasn't found me, or is it that I'm making shitty content?

Josh: And if you find there's a way to work that out—

Matt: no, I think it just takes your gut. I think you, like, you have to have intuition as a creator and a creative, and you have to know. I think it comes from, like, we have personal experience with content. We all watch videos, or we will all listen to podcasts, and we know what we like.

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: And if we say, hey, like, objectively, I think what I'm making is very good, it's just maybe I need to like keep at it a little bit longer, then that's going to be something that you have to decide for yourself.

Josh: You've got a great YouTube channel because it's, as you described it, it's like self-development for people who aren't necessarily into self-development. So it's like the non-wanky version of that, would you say?

Matt: Yeah, where I'm trying to make it like entertaining. Yeah, I'm trying to make it interesting. I don't like have a stick up my ass. I, I'm not an expert. Yeah, at any of this stuff. And I think that there is just like, I don't know, a lot of people are turned off by self-help and embarrassed about buying a self-help book. Yeah, but I think it's like we should all be experimenting in our lives and trying different things and trying to like, if we want to be happy and you aren't, then I think you have to try different things.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely. It's The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email. And D-Val's got a couple of new videos out too. One's on the whole resolution, 2019.

Matt: Yeah.

Josh: New Year's resolutions. Should you fucking have one? Should you maybe focus on a habit?

Matt: I don't know. Find out.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show. Have a good one.