Silly Good Vanilla Slice

Tommy: It's a very low barrier to get into the Gronk Squad.

Josh: That's crazy. We've committed to do the Daily Talk Show for 10 years.

Tommy: Hi guys. Hi guys.

Josh: Put it in the calendar. I just like to cheque the temperature in the room. I told you my squeegee story.

Tommy: It is outrageous.

Josh: Come on, let's go. It's the Daily Talk Show episode 988. You're getting awkward because you don't want to say it's Fat Friday. Named by Tommy Jack himself.

Tommy: Who did come up with that name?

Josh: I don't know.

Tommy: We were at a— We're doing a great project for a great school called NCAT, and we get access to the canteen.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Which I think I saw the other teachers—

Josh: We're not the teachers.

Tommy: I saw the teachers going in to get a few things. Mate, they've got a tab going, like—

Josh: Oh, really? Did you find out the name on the tab?

Tommy: No. So, they just know the people. So, there's like— We lined up with the school kids yesterday. God, that's an experience in itself. Just like sort of seeing the sort of young people, what they're up to, what they wear, the phones, the banter. One kid was rapping at another kid. It was great. I loved it. I loved it.

Josh: The on the bar tab thing. When I worked in radio, Jules Lund had a tab for a café across the road.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And Byron Cook was using it for many months without Jules knowing. Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: What a dog.

Josh: Byron. I know.

Tommy: But I feel like Jules is the kind of guy you want to do that shit to. Yeah, just because he'd be like, ah, fair play. Like, he loves a good story. He loves a good story.

Josh: That cost me 10 grand, but it's fucking— Love that. Yeah, I mean, the Canteen, they have some great food there.

Tommy: Anyway, my point of it was, um, it was last Friday or the other Friday, a couple of Fridays ago, we went in there, just said Fat Friday. I was like I'm a narcissist. Do you listen to our show? Tell me. No, no, no, she doesn't. It's a real thing.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So, I don't think we came up with it.

Josh: Definitely not like this. On Friday, people get looser, potentially.

Tommy: I'll tell you what, someone else. So, I wonder who came up with the first signage that said Melbourne's best vanilla slice or award-winning vinolasla. So, you know, when you go to the country, there's like—

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it says, well, the world's best hot chocolate is near my place. I haven't had it yet, but, um, you are having hot chocolate right now. Yeah, well, I haven't had hot chocolates for a while, but I thought, uh, given the, the stress that I've been talking about, it seems that maybe caffeine through intravenous is not right for you. Exactly. Well, like, I'm somehow became the strong coffee guy.

Tommy: That's probably my fault.

Josh: Yeah, maybe. But I don't think that maybe I need it. So, I'm trying to start the day on something because yesterday also when filming, forgot to drink water all day.

Tommy: Yeah, I did too. That was a mistake. We can, we need to pull over and get just a bottle. Anyway, I've got the world's best vanilla slice.

Josh: Oh, great.

Tommy: And no, this is from a great place. Oh my God. Oh, the icing's gone.

Josh: What do you mean?

Tommy: The dust of icing is gone. That's problematic.

Josh: I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it's not too problematic. There's more.

Tommy: Yeah, there's a lot more problematic things.

Josh: Can I just say the annoying bit is that the— It's not sticky icing.

Tommy: Yeah, but that's— Is that— Maybe that's not the world's best. This is a— There's a place in Brunswick, French Lattes. And a place in Bulleen. Anyway, I don't want to fucking really eat the whole thing. I just want a bite.

Josh: Do you want to have a bite?

Tommy: Just have a little bite.

Josh: Do you want?

Tommy: Okay. Just, it's going to become, it's going to be destroyed. But you got to, I mean, this has got us. The marketing has got us.

Josh: So, yeah, normally I'm used to, I'm used to a sticky top.

Tommy: Which is like the Bulleen special. It's a bogan. Well, there is a Bulleen, there's a place that's a bit boge.

Josh: And so, the other thing too, this does remind me. In, I think, Slovenia, there's something called the cream cake.

Tommy: Which, that's not the same thing. That's not the same thing.

Josh: But it reminded me a lot, like there's a place in Lake Bled where you sort of go and sit and eat cream cakes. Yeah. Here we go.

Tommy: Have a little, just tell, I just want to know, is it good? Oh, it's staying together. So, I appreciate that it doesn't just explode and go everywhere. Is it good?

Josh: Really good.

Tommy: French lettuce. You've nailed it. That was perfect. I've nailed it.

Josh: Yeah, it's really good. Yeah. Yum. The powder's gonna— the powder is making me sneeze. First sneeze on the show.

Tommy: Wow.

Josh: First sneeze on the show.

Tommy: Did you sniff it?

Josh: From the powder, I think, like, it got into me.

Tommy: Man, that's good. That's deceptively good. To be honest, seeing that with the icing that fell off, I was like, this could be average.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: The ingredients are phenomenal.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I had some real banter with the, with the lady at the French lettuce place yesterday. And we were talking because I— it's interesting, you know, if you ever want to have banter with somebody, just look at them and think about what is it that they do, like what's your in? And of course, at a café, it makes sense. It's like barista, they're into coffee. So, talk to them about coffee.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: If you've got like, don't make it about you. And so, this lady who was working there was the chef. And these people are up, chefs are up very early. So, that's my in. Oh, mate, how long you, when you've been up since? 1:00 AM.

Josh: That's crazy. And at that time it was about 5:30.

Tommy: Yeah. And so the cafe, the bakery was just opening and she was making a coffee for us. And we started talking about their croissants, which I bought today.

Josh: So, is this because we had one of their chocolate filled?

Tommy: Which are phenomenal.

Josh: Yeah. Ridiculous.

Tommy: Outrageous.

Josh: Silly even. Silly, silly good.

Tommy: It should be, that's, yes. Melbourne's Most Silly Good.

Josh: Silly Good is a good name for a cafe.

Tommy: Silly Good. Anyway, so, I've got their croissant, which I've bought. Yes. But we were talking about it and I felt like I could be quite open. And you can only be open if you— you can only sort of give them some kind of negative feedback if you're then coming back with a positive. So, I said to them, yeah, I wasn't sure about your croissants at first, you know.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: Where's this going? But I was like, now I love them. I'm really into them. She said, oh, that's so nice. Thank you. Because a lot of people aren't, like they sort of have a bit of pushback.

Josh: What's the pushback on them?

Tommy: So a croissant, uh, I said, this is what I said, I said, yeah, I'm so used to those just soft croissants, like they just, they just squash.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Whereas these are a little bit harder. Um, but, and, and so they're, if you take, if you have this croissant, like these are, they do hundreds and hundreds of these a day selling these across their stores and they are a different vibe. And so They're being— they're different. Like, you can see you— Josh has just pulled the end off, but the middle hasn't sunk at all. It's almost like, um, and they're quite, quite crunchy. Quite crunchy. And it's a different experience. But I was able to sort of thread in that I didn't at the start. I was like a bit unsure, but now I'm into them. And it was nice because it actually was like, that's what people— that's actually what happens. People are like so used to getting the softest croissant you've ever seen. And then—

Josh: So this is more authentic?

Tommy: Well, I couldn't tell you that. I reckon they were softer in Paris when I had them. So that's my— that's all I can bring to the table in terms of what it is. But I did— Have you ever seen on like maybe TikTok or a video like it? Think about TikTok where they've like a real piece of— Yeah, like a reel. They've got a piece of pastry And they drop a dollop of butter and then roll it, put it in the oven and then it just cooks. Because I was curious about that. I was like, is that how it happens?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Is that how it happens? And no, it's not how it happens for how they do this.

Josh: How do they do it?

Tommy: She said that a lot of people who do home baking would do that. But these, they're doing this at mass. So, they've got like a kilo of dough or, you know, whatever they're making there. And then they put the butter into that. So, it's like all combined.

Josh: A kilo is not much.

Tommy: Well, maybe it was 2 kilos that they— It was a kilo of butter. It was whatever they— Whatever their portion is that they do a huge thing and then roll it out and do whatever they do to get to that. But it was interesting that they— That it's not— It's not your feta. What's that pasta that you were watching?

Josh: Oh, yeah, the feta pasta.

Tommy: But it's not always like that. You see it. You see their methods on— Instagram. It's not how it is.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Anyway, yeah, I said it's good to be different.

Josh: It's good to be different. Have you ever done— I guess you did, um, breakfast radio. Any other times in your life where you've woken up consistently early and sort of been— because it feels like, because we've been doing it a bit lately with the shoots, because we'll come in early, do the show, you know, be out the door by 7 type of thing. Like finishing the show, everything's done by 7. I feel like it's a different vibe. Like just the roads are quieter. Like those interactions at the café, it feels different. It feels like you're getting one up on everyone because everyone's asleep.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, interacting with people, everyone's sort of, we're in this together, you know. We're up early.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It'd be night shift workers. I think there'd probably be some camaraderie.

Josh: Did you do that side, like with landscaping when you were doing landscape?

Tommy: Yeah, that was very early. I used to get up and watch, um, Aerobic Oz Style. Girls in leotards stretching on the foreshore, but it was like a legit thing. Remember that show?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: My brother and I would sit there just eating porridge, watching. I wish I had a camera just pointing at me and him, just like we didn't talk. This is when I lived with my brother and we were watching Aerobic Oz Style before we headed off.

Josh: So this was like you were over 18?

Tommy: No, I was 17 at that point.

Josh: Yeah. And you lived with your brother? Yeah. Yeah. And he, like, without your parents?

Tommy: Without my parents.

Josh: What did that, what did that look like? How did you end up living at your brother's?

Tommy: It was because I was working for Dad. And so it, yeah, I think it only lasted 6 months or something. But it was, it was cool.

Josh: And was the idea, did your bro say, hey, do you want to come stay? I can't remember.

Tommy: It's funny how those little things slip, like who said what. I couldn't imagine him saying that. I could imagine me saying, bro, you got a spare room? Book us up.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. What suburb was it in?

Tommy: Windsor. It was great. But I— Yeah, it was sick being able to— It was the first taste, but then I went back home and then it was because I was— It was, I think, because I was not wanting to do the thing I was doing, not wanting to do landscaping. Like it was just— That was a ploy to get out of school.

Josh: Was it digging? What were you actually doing?

Tommy: Oh, dude. Shovel work. Fuck it. And that's an honest living. Or a fucking annoying one.

Josh: Digging holes and stuff.

Tommy: It's— I actually quite like it. So, there's— That would be a nightmare for somebody. Yeah. I actually enjoy being in the garden digging, you know, planting. It's actually nice. Like, I enjoy the outdoors aspect of it, which is why if I was ever to do something like— I couldn't do bricklaying. Too soft for that. But I could do landscaping.

Josh: Roofing?

Tommy: Nah, too soft.

Josh: Rendering?

Tommy: Too repetitive. As much as digging is though, but I feel like, think about what changes, the colour.

Josh: Plumbing?

Tommy: If I had to pick a trade right now. Oh God, that's a tough one.

Josh: Could you be a chippy? Like a full-blown, like, build a house vibe?

Tommy: Nah, nah. I don't think I have the patience. I don't think I'd want to study. I just know in life that I can't do something I really don't want to do. In respects to something as big as, like, go down the path of being chippy, going to trade school, you have to go through that process.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I have an idea of what that process looks like. I did VCal as a kid and I went to, had to go to Frankston every Wednesday or every second Wednesday in my overalls. Oh, that was dumb. That was dumb. Just dumb. I just felt dumb. Like, I felt dumb. I was in these big overalls, these, these boots, um, you know, I look like a stripper from Manpower or something, but, or, or or a chippy. But I just didn't like it. I didn't like the— I just didn't like that vibe. And so, I mean, I'd much rather come in on the ground level, just working and then in the industry. Like, I'd rather— Like, my brother didn't do landscaping as a trade or an apprenticeship, but he did years of it. And, you know, and he can do everything. So, there's a difference. He's now an electrician, but he learnt a lot of stuff. Being very handy and knowing how to do things. But yeah, it requires that. I— God, if you had to go back to uni right now, you've said journalism before, but that's dead. No, no, that's not dead. But if you can't pick journalism, but something just outside of journalism.

Josh: Something like social science or something like it. Maybe.

Tommy: So, academic. You'd go academic?

Josh: No, like more psychology, but like, yeah, like the Like, not necessarily academic, but maybe not sort of like a practising psych where you're sitting and, you know, you have people coming in, you've got your own practice. But something like, like what Adam Grant, I mean, that's a PhD, like he's thinking about the amount of time.

Tommy: What's he, a social?

Josh: No, a, um, yeah, organisational psychologist maybe.

Tommy: So, the hard bit for me Which, which I like the, I like the trades because you know that it's what the, the outcome is and then what you do moving forward to make the money or to start, you can start a business, you know, you get clients. And so that's it. Yeah, the psychology ones are hard because I think you think, I'm a, if I become a psychologist, I work in a practise or I start a practise or I get clients.

Josh: But then you've got people like, um, Dan Ariely. Who wrote the book Predictably Irrational, and that is very much like research. Research is sort of fun. The problem with research, having not done any of it, is that—

Tommy: Have you researched this?

Josh: Yeah. The time that it takes. Like, there's just a lot of, like, I don't like red tape. And even hearing Craig Harper talk about, yeah, him trying to submit work and it just getting rejected and having to go back, it's a pain in the arse.

Tommy: And I mean, yeah, it takes a, it takes a certain mindset to do it because in my mind, what's it for? Like, for me, what's it for for yourself? So think about all the people that have degrees and don't use them. It's fine. It might actually be the reason you are who you are. Like, you've— it's a part of your— it is a part of your existence whether you use it or not. Sam Kavanaugh has a criminology degree, I'm pretty sure.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And he's a radio producer.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: One of the best. And so, does that, does his mind, you know, have a bunch of these sort of upgrades based on that course that help him in the producing? Probably.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Probably.

Josh: Well, someone yesterday told us the stat that 45% of students who finish Year 12 and go on to university will quit after the, will leave uni in the first year.

Tommy: Yeah, man.

Josh: 45%. That's huge.

Tommy: Dude, it's, um, it's— I'd say I could— I couldn't imagine it going down.

Josh: And I don't—

Tommy: and I couldn't— and I don't think it's because people are useless. I think it's what's the future of work. If you look at what it means to go and sit a law degree and how long you have to do it for and then realise it, like, it's a lot of time to think about what you're going to be doing. Yeah, that's the problem for me. I can't— that would that would fuck me.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Thinking about how I'm then going to become a lawyer in an office.

Josh: Well, I think that even with video production, I've been able to move around enough that it never felt like it was one-dimensional. Like, I didn't feel— so I did— there was a stint where I'm like, I do photography, and then there was a stint where I'm like, I'm a community manager. Like, I've done all of that sort of stuff and then have always come back to Like video specifically.

Tommy: So, I mean, what has to— I mean, the thing is how much change will actually happen when these are private education systems that make a lot of money. And so, as, you know, Seth Godin says, we're all cogs. Like some of us are still in that mindset of, which is only just natural. Like I have to go to school. It's school, right?

Josh: It's the industrial age where it's like, okay, you, we need to produce consistent people that can then take these predictable jobs. Yeah. But then as that changes, it's like, okay, well, what now? But I feel like in the ambiguity, there's something about me that loves the idea of the old days. Where you don't have—

Tommy: It was toxic. You did, you know, worked on the line.

Josh: But like, it like, I guess like there was less ambiguity.

Tommy: You knew what your future looked like.

Josh: Yeah. So, you knew that like, but I think there's a lot of uncertainty for everyone now, for a lot of people, especially going out of school where it's like, okay, what now?

Tommy: Yeah. I didn't even know what I wanted to do in school. And so, and because I was—

Josh: Do you wish that you did something else or do you think that you used your time differently at school?

Tommy: Nah, my game plan was to get out of it because it was, it felt, I felt like I was being held back by it, which I think if that's your feeling, I don't know how finding a spot in the system is going to work. Like it would, I would have needed a heap of convincing. And so, certain Northern College of the Arts and Technology, the school we're filming at, has these young passionate kids that know almost— So, they have like a hobby or a love for something like music or arts or, you know. And so, if you've identified or at least an interest in something and then you are able to flex that muscle daily, you feel like you're free, which some of these kids are saying, "I'm fucking— I feel free. I don't feel like I go to school. I don't feel like—" Which is amazing. But I didn't have any of those. And so, it was like something—

Josh: Is it because VCAL was very much like a trade? So, you would do it— I had no interest in—

Tommy: I had no interest. I used to say to my mum from grade 1, I don't want to go to school. Like, I hate school. And so, I hated school from the beginning. And so, it's literally the day I left school, as in dropped out, just left in— It was year 11 or something. I felt like, oh, like the day that I decided. It's a big, big decision. There's a lot wrapped up in it because you can feel pretty inadequate if you're, you know, you're breaking out of a system. And so, you're feeling like an outlier in a bad way.

Josh: Couldn't there have been a better system that you would have stuck to?

Tommy: I don't know if there would be based on, say, my understanding of some of these kids that we're seeing that are passionate about something. So, you would have thrived at a place like NCAT because you knew that you loved video and they could offer that for you. But I didn't know any of this shit, so I went along.

Josh: So is that like—

Tommy: I didn't know I wanted to do— I started video production very late in my life compared to you.

Josh: And so then experimentation though, the hard part, but like think about from a video perspective or like from a creative perspective there's still structures in things like NCAP where it's like, oh, you need to show up at a certain time, you have to do these things. So, there's a certain amount of structure, which is good. I wonder—

Tommy: Which is, it's like discipline. It's, you need to learn these things. I always knew I'd be fine. I did. And I just knew it wasn't school that was going to be a part of that. And so, I never thought that I wouldn't I never thought, I don't know what I want to do. Like, I found out that you could study. I called the personal training course and said, how old do you have to be? They said 17. I was like, fuck, I'm 17. I can do this. I, you know, ended up doing the 8-week course, got the thing, got my first job. Like, I felt like I was free as soon as I was out of that system. And I was like, I can do whatever I want now. And so I—

Josh: And the thing is, struggle at doing the PT course?

Tommy: Not at all. No, loved it. Loved it. Loved it. I mean, it's fucking ticking the box. I don't think many people fail. They want you to pass because they probably then get a kickback from the gov. But it was not that environment. It was— that came out of me doing kickboxing and getting discipline in Muay Thai. I was training a lot and loving that and going to the gym. Like, I was young. I was young and saw that and then was able to— there was some discipline there. And it was confronting to do the 8-week course because I, you know, hadn't fucking really passed any year. Like, you just— what's passing in year 7, 8, 9? It's just like you got to get through it. And they passed me in year 10 somehow.

Josh: Is there a skill that you wish that you'd focused on?

Tommy: The foundational skills? Foundational skills? Nah, because I think in hindsight it's like not ready. You're not ready. Yes. So, you could say, oh, would be good to understand more about fucking, I don't know. This is the thing. I don't, I can't. Like writing. Yeah, but I think it's part of someone's journey. Anyone, you could, you could, you could say a year ago when I had all that time, it's like when we didn't have the responsibilities of this business. I wish I spent more time doing this before, you know, it's like before kids, I wish I did more of this. It's such an easier thing to look at, but it is part of the journey. It's like, when are you ready to actually do the work? And it wasn't back then, but it was—

Josh: Do you think that there's— So is there any— Like, I feel like regret can be a powerful motivator for future, but not for many, not for everybody.

Tommy: It's like, um, George said to me, ah, a bit of fire under your belly. It's like some people react he was just referencing something. It's like, that is a common saying, that put a bit of fire under somebody's belly, just fire under their belly, fire under their belly, and they get moving. I was like, yeah, and they also fucking burn sometimes. It's like that, that flame doesn't always, um, get people going. Pressure doesn't always make people optimised or work their best because it's, it's a bit too much. And so that's the reality. It's like You can easily say, ah, pressure makes diamonds. It's like, yeah, I'm not a fucking diamond.

Josh: Yeah, but it can. So for instance, like, think about the, um, uh, older people doing some of the courses, like, um, uh, people in their 50s or 60s that will take on like an art course and learn how to do art. And they've, you know, they regret not doing it when they're younger, and then they finally do it. So that regret then translates into them actually making a change.

Tommy: If you've got regret. I don't have regret about that stuff. I just— Because the person who has regret can also reframe it or actually do some work to see it a different way.

Josh: So, that's the thing, though. It's not about— So, it's not a negative thing.

Tommy: But I can think people, a lot of people say regret is negative.

Josh: So, if you—

Tommy: Like, it's I made the decisions that weren't what I would now want with my now thinking about my past.

Josh: And so, so if you become— if you have a certain amount of awareness and then you move towards having more self-awareness, could you be unlocking things about your past that you didn't realize? So the storey is actually expanding. The story— it's not— the static isn't, uh, sorry, the storey isn't static. It actually, your history is changing as well based on whatever your new perspective is.

Tommy: History doesn't change. History stays the same because you can't change the past. You can't do the— There's no future. There's no— All it is is perception or thought around what it is and how, what it means to you.

Josh: No, but so, your perception can change on— So, if history, if what we describe as what the past was, is, um, if that's, if that's in our mind and we are, um, constantly changing, it's not too hard to believe that, okay, all of a sudden the thing that I believed— you could look back at something 15 years ago and say, oh, you know what, like, that was thinking based on culture or based on, you know, the way that you're brought up, but then you have a new perspective. And so then if that has changed your life, if that one decision or that one thing was a critical factor of what you then went on to do, reconsidering things and saying, oh, you know, I don't have to think— Like, you can actually, like, course correct as well.

Tommy: In the current time. Now. Exactly.

Josh: Well, you can't change the past. Yeah. But you can learn from the past.

Tommy: And the learning— You're saying learning from the past could come up years later. Yeah. And you did. Yeah, of course. Well, it's like, with, with newfound information. Yeah, in the present. Yeah.

Josh: And so the thing, there's like dogma in, oh, you know what, like no regrets, everything I've done was the right thing that I should have done, which I get that, like, I guess a lot of people are like that, like, um, but then, and I'm sort of like that, but at the same time it's like if you can see opportunities that you can then relate to your future and say, oh, you know what, during that time I felt that this was true, and then I actually identified that it wasn't. Maybe this present moment, X, Y, and Z isn't true. And so you can adapt.

Tommy: But then where do you land?

Josh: I think you, you land on allowing yourself to change. I think that the— like, I think that's my main point, is it's like if you are in a place of like no regrets, everything I've done was like with the information I had, whatever, um, potentially you are reducing the ability to grow versus saying new information. It's like, uh, sunk cost. Like, you know, um, do you need— if you decided to do a uni course and now all of a sudden you're doing a job based on that uni course if there was flawed thinking on why you were doing the uni course because your parents told you to, or whatever it was, is that the right decision for now? And so if we're using flawed thinking from our past and it's affecting our future, we can reconsider what we've— what we're doing.

Tommy: But then it's like, it's a real skill to be able to identify flawed thinking from your past because it has to be something that is actually being felt and understood in the moment.

Josh: I think it's like you've got to listen, you've got to listen to yourself and say, okay, well, yeah, this is, this is how I'm feeling now. Just because I've— if you've done, uh, 3 years of medicine and you've got to do 6 or whatever, you're 3 years in, but you know you don't want to do anything relating to medicine after it. There'd be a bunch of people who stay the course because they made a decision 3 years ago.

Tommy: 100%. And then it, it is tricky. That is life. It's like when it, when it gets hard, that it— you feel like you don't want to keep going. And when you've committed to something, you feel like you— and then so the signals might be, like you're saying, the feelings might be, I want to I don't want to do this anymore. But there is, there is the— I mean, you've got to weigh that up, right? Should I keep going? There is something worth getting through it is one thought.

Josh: There is something.

Tommy: Yeah, but so that's a fucking hard bit to work out when you cut it based on— yeah, if you're the person that's always pulled out halfway through, maybe that's something to look at. There's so—

Josh: that's what it's about, the But then there's also like the ability. Yeah. So there's the, I guess, being steadfast and being able to see something through. Resilient. Yeah. But then there's— it's also a real skill. Like, I feel like there's a lot of people in the world that just feel stuck and like stuck on the decision that you made when you were 18 or, you know, when you just finished school. Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, you can fucking turn your life upside down In a second.

Josh: And also external stuff can do it too. People dying, things happening. Yeah, people getting sick. And so that's the other thing too, is it's like if we learnt anything from last year, it's that we're not necessarily in that much control of those external factors.

Tommy: What does it all mean? Lots of good questions to ask yourself there. And there's no, there's no— It's the weirdest bit is that why do you, why does at one moment you connect with something? And another, you know, like there's a slight bit of out-of-controlness, which is not a word, but out-of-control nature to our minds that I can't— I don't know why I could— why I like that, like necessarily why I'm into certain things. Like why— Like you can try and reverse engineer them, but like the, the, the sea of our minds, shit just coming up. Like, think about if you try and be still for a moment and thinking about shit that happened 10 years ago, thinking about the random nature to it. There's like, you can't— that we can't necessarily— like, you can say, I control my thoughts, dude. There's going to be a thought that rolls in like a cloud that you, you didn't control. So then at that point, what control do we have But then there's, isn't it cognitive dissonance?

Josh: That's like you can just start to, like, you believe your own thing and you actually become more— So the more you tell the story, the more you need to be like, yeah, this is, this is the right decision, just to try and like make yourself feel better as well.

Tommy: But then why do you feel like it's hard to tell yourself the storey if you don't actually believe it? There's a, you know, the difference between saying it and actually feeling that it inside. Like, what do you think?

Josh: That's, I think that's the, That's that bit, which is you actually feel like you're in the moment. You can convince yourself that it's the right decision. Buy Bitcoin. Yeah, it's down. Hi, thedailychoke.com. Uh, have a good weekend, guys. We'll see you tomorrow.

Tommy: Have a good one. See you guys.