A Blow Up About Advice

Josh: It's a very low barrier to get into the Gronkh Squad.

Tommy: That's crazy! We've committed to do The Daily Talk Show for 10 years.

Josh: Say hi, guys. Hi, guys.

Tommy: Put it in the calendar. I just like to cheque the temperature in the room. I told you my squeegee story.

Josh: It is outrageous.

Tommy: Come on, let's go. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 987.

Josh: What is happening? What is going on, everybody?

Tommy: It's nice and early for us.

Josh: It's 2021. It's pretty crazy, isn't it?

Tommy: Yeah. Why do you say that?

Josh: I don't know. Just thinking about the year that it is. Sometimes I'm blown away that, like, you know, I'm old.

Tommy: I'm getting old.

Josh: Just thinking about, like, 2010. Long time ago.

Tommy: Don't you think 3 years feels like an eternity? If you think about how long— this is how long we've been doing the show for.

Josh: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it's a time perception. Changes based on what you're doing. So, there are some things in life that just feel like they take a long time when you're doing them, but they don't. But 3, like 3 years over the scheme of our life, our life is tiny. So tiny. It's 10% of our lifetime.

Tommy: Is it? No. If we're living to 30. No, as in right now. Right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Not our lifetime.

Tommy: It'll be small. It's probably like 2% or something.

Josh: A small slice. But, you know, as Craig Harper says, You know, you wake up tomorrow, you're 45, you haven't changed shit.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: It's true. It's like you're talking about it for a long time, a lot of things. But yeah, what else makes it like travelling because you're enjoying it can go really fast, which is annoying because you'd like it to slow.

Tommy: Well, I feel like having done a little bit of like longer travel, like 3+ months, the first 2.5 months Very slow.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: The final bit, very fast. So, it's like, oh my gosh, we've got so much time and then it speeds up right at the end.

Josh: Which we know nothing speeds. Nothing speeds up.

Tommy: So, it's perception.

Josh: 100%. There's, I guess if you're enjoying something and you're in the moment, maybe it's like, is it a reflection? So, it's a lot of thinking going on when you're thinking about how much, how has this felt? And then you retrospectively Assessing, because if you're in the moment, then that's not even a thought, right? Yeah, this is great. So it's when things go up and down, when you feel every gamut of emotion, maybe that's when it's like, that's the exhaustion that could feel like this is dragging on, which is the last 3 years.

Tommy: Uh, I was, uh, you know Philip DeFranco?

Josh: Um, as in day— no, I don't know him.

Tommy: Who's that? He's a YouTuber. He's like, sup, you beautiful bastards, today in news.

Josh: No, never heard of him. I've heard of his name, but I don't know.

Tommy: Yeah, so he is a YouTuber based in Los Angeles and does like, um, you beautiful bastards.

Josh: Is that easy?

Tommy: You beautiful bastards, today in Philip DeFranco.

Josh: Is that what he said? His catchphrase?

Tommy: Yeah, sup, you beautiful bastards. I think he may have stopped saying it.

Josh: Um, he got threatened.

Tommy: No, I can imagine.

Josh: No, I think I'm a bastard.

Tommy: No, I think it's got something to do with demonetisation, maybe. Okay. So, it's like, you know, you want to— like, I've noticed that people won't say the C word, as in see you next Tuesday. No, as in they say the illness that we've been going through.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: They won't talk about the P word.

Josh: Peh. Peh.

Tommy: What? The thing that's, uh, no, no, no, the thing that's, uh, pandemic.

Josh: Oh, you've just fucked it.

Tommy: So now we're gonna get demonetized.

Josh: That is crazy, man, that people are.

Tommy: And so yeah, they'll say, yeah, so they, uh, but anyway, Philip DeFranco, at the start of his video I was watching, he's like, before I get started, started, yeah, if you're feeling unhealthy, if you're feeling like, uh, you know, you've put on weight in the last year, give yourself a break. He said, like, 2020, the only thing that you had to do was survive, which I thought was a nice sentiment. But surviving is such a low barrier, isn't it?

Josh: I mean, you don't have to do shit to survive, as in you need what you need, some basics, right?

Tommy: But when people are feeling, I guess, how they're feeling, it can be a nice Like, it did make me feel good in the moment where I was like, oh, you know what, he's like— and then he— because he was doing all these stats around how many people— 63%, uh, of people say that they have, um, gone against their weight goals, whether it's they've put on weight when they wanted to lose weight or they've lost weight when they've been trying to gain weight.

Josh: It's a real challenge. Um, When I was out filming yesterday, the dude who was helping me out on the shoot, he's looking great. And we're talking about this, like COVID.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: He couldn't be— no one could be out on set filming. So he went and worked in a factory running box, you know, back and forth, you know, 10K a day or something, just like crazy amount of steps. Lost a heap of weight.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And he's like, mate, it was wonders for me. Got to work and lost weight, which is like, there's a few of those people out there that, yeah, it changed their normal. And so for a lot of people's normal, the fucking gym, tan, laundry, it's like that became a gym tan laundry, GTL. It was, uh, off, um, it was off, uh, what's that, Jersey Shore? And it was about they, they every day it was gym and they go tan and they get their laundry there. Wash and fold.

Tommy: Oh, they do that?

Josh: They get it done.

Tommy: Oh, that's great.

Josh: Pick it up, like they're getting their stuff washed and folded.

Tommy: I could get around gym tan laundry, seriously.

Josh: But they used tanning beds.

Tommy: Oh, did you? Well, I, um, I only just realised this. So do you know, um, I think it's, uh, is it Brody Jenner from, um, he's on The Hills? Yeah, you know. Yeah. He doesn't talk like that. No. But, oh no. Yeah.

Josh: Brodie's the good looking cat.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: He comes to Melbourne a bunch for the events.

Tommy: Yeah, exactly. But he has—

Josh: Hasn't worked a day in his life.

Tommy: So, no, but see how like I was watching like a recap of The Hills where Whitney Port and her partner Timmy, they do the whole thing where they talk through a show.

Josh: I reckon it's the most boring content, you talking about reality TV shows, especially the US. It's like, it's so fucking cringe, dude.

Tommy: But you just told, you just told me what Jim Tan— I didn't fucking—

Josh: I just dropped it in. It's just really fun. I think it's a funny thing. You like— I kind of like it, you talking about like replaying reality TV to me. The most soft fucking shows.

Tommy: No, but so can you— Yeah, but I want to hear it now.

Josh: I just had I had to preface this so people are like, oh, Josh is talking about fucking reality TV.

Tommy: Bags under your eyes, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. Brody Jenner has the opposite of that.

Josh: What's the opposite of bags?

Tommy: So, like, rather than dark, like, under the eyes.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fuck, you're totally right. I've noticed that.

Tommy: It's like a whiter sort of thing, right? So, it's almost like, is it called concealer or like whatever people put underneath? To sort of like make their eyes pop. But anyway, do you know what it is?

Josh: What is it? He's got a problem?

Tommy: No. Whitney Port, who I was watching the reaction video, she was hosting it. She said tanning beds. It's the goggles. And so, you're getting tanned everywhere except there.

Josh: Oh.

Tommy: Isn't that interesting?

Josh: The scoopla. Bring the fucking goss, Josh.

Tommy: Yeah. It's good, though, isn't it?

Josh: I've had that before because you get it from sunnies. Yeah. Okay, I'm surprised you haven't had it traveling, like, because you're always wearing glasses and in the summer you're wearing the shaded ones.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Where are the shaded ones? They were fucking cool, dude. Oh, you changed your glasses today? Is it because yesterday I said your eyes look huge?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Is that why you changed?

Tommy: Impact? Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Well, I just said— I just— because I was editing yesterday's episode like a fucking hero. She's got it up.

Tommy: It's your third time doing it.

Josh: Yeah. And I just hadn't noticed that your glasses make your eyes look big, which is what glasses do. Like, your eyes are a little bit bigger than normal right now.

Tommy: But with these ones, but I think that the, for whatever reason, the dark-rimmed glasses are 100 times zoom on your eyeballs. No, no, they're more polarising.

Josh: Are they? So you don't— Can we get a comparison side by side? George right now in this snippet.

Tommy: And so, for people who are just listening.

Josh: Side by side from yesterday's episode to today.

Tommy: I'm wearing the Steve Jobs glasses.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: Today. Whereas yesterday I was wearing sort of the black-rimmed ones. But I think.

Josh: Where are your other ones?

Tommy: Yeah. So, they're just in a drawer. But the problem is, so, they are clip-ons. So, I have, they're sort of like the Pete Shepherd style glasses, which is the clear sort of plasticky glasses, which they look really cool. The problem is if you wear them every day, our skin has oils. And so, you can actually, like, you get a bit of discoloration that I don't like. I took it to the glasses shop. They wanted to charge like over $100 of polishing them.

Josh: To clean it.

Tommy: To clean the, like, I was like, you know what? I'm just going to buy new glasses.

Josh: Well, you could, surely you could just clean them a little bit.

Tommy: So I put them in dishwashing stuff and did all that sort of thing. But the thing is, so what you're referring to is the sunnies part.

Josh: The sunnies part.

Tommy: They look sick. Yeah, they clip on.

Josh: Because they actually look like a good pair of sunnies.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Not, you know, not some aviator shit or like too big for your face.

Tommy: Which the thing is, you, I was listening to Craig Harper. He had an episode called Friends and Frenemies.

Josh: Yeah, I did see that.

Tommy: I was like, oh, someone's spilling the tea.

Josh: Craig Harper spilling the tea. I'd fucking watch that. Yeah, I would watch that. And he has to just bring gossip to the table.

Tommy: Yeah, it was a little bit, which I liked. I like Harper being like, what if there was a point where he said Not to sound like a jilted partner, but he wasn't writing back as much as I liked.

Josh: He was talking about a friend.

Tommy: Yes. And so, he— Remember a couple of years ago he did a big audio series, like a course thing that you could buy? Yeah. So, it was a section from that.

Josh: Okay, great.

Tommy: But yeah, what was the— What was my point about that?

Josh: What's the takeaway for you? About just friends.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, friends. So he was talking about friends that give advice.

Josh: Oh yeah, mate, here's what you need to do. Yes, you need to buy Bitcoin. You should have fucking listened to them, you idiots.

Tommy: And so, but what he was saying is that some like are just like obviously projecting or whatever, but then other people are doing it from a place of love. And so it's trying to work out which is which. From an advice perspective, you you do give a bit of advice.

Josh: Which was the advice? Because that wasn't advice about your glasses. Not one, not whatsoever. Like, I literally, my thinking was, oh my God, I haven't noticed this because I haven't been looking at you.

Tommy: No, no, no, no. As in, I love those glasses, or why don't you wear those clothes, or you should shave your neck.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Which I think it's coming from a place of love.

Josh: Definitely. Because you, I think you interpret it like you're, it's coming from some sort of like disgust at what the current situation is.

Tommy: Well, I think there's a level of judgement because the thing is that when someone says, oh, why don't you, um, why don't you wear any of your nice clothes that you've got?

Josh: That's fair.

Tommy: So when you say, oh, you might—

Josh: because I said that to you, I said wear it because I saw you in a different jump—

Tommy: I saw an old video.

Josh: I'm like, fuck, that's a sick jumper. Where do you— it'd be like your mate who's got a good sports car and he doesn't fucking drive it, and you're like, dude, where's your fucking Maserati?

Tommy: Which is completely fine But if he was too fat to fit in the Maserati, it's a bit sad, right?

Josh: That's a reality for some people.

Tommy: And so this is the thing.

Josh: Well, that's too hard to fit in the Maserati.

Tommy: My mate Shane Jacobson lost, like, his whole Light 'n' Easy storey was he couldn't fit into a racing car. And so they did a whole Light 'n' Easy campaign where he then fit into the racing car and drove around.

Josh: But I mean, I'm talking about a $70 jumper over a $700,000 supercar.

Tommy: Yeah, but see, but isn't it interesting? Because the thing is, you say that thing, which one, you know, like, oh, why don't you wear that jumper? Which is such a small— doesn't mean anything. But when you're me and you see the jumpers every day, you're like, fuck, I wish I could wear them.

Josh: Do you have them up around your room?

Tommy: No, no, they're, they're all fold— they're folded ready for when I fucking lose my way.

Josh: Okay, which, which is obviously— yeah, there's, uh, there's a very uncontrolling nature to what I'm saying, which I can't— like, for what you're doing, mate, left, right, left, right, drink, drink. If I can go and—

Tommy: well, I've got, I've got this, the throat issue again. It's con— like, it's, it's fucked. I don't want to talk about it because I feel like it's a psychological thing. Yeah, it's this feeling like I feel like I'm swallowing my tongue. It's scary.

Josh: And it can't happen.

Tommy: Like, it's— No, but it's like a feeling of you're losing your breath. And so, then I've taken one of Jess's anti-anxiety pills.

Josh: Which isn't Xanax. It sounds like you're—

Tommy: No, it's a natural thing. But it's this constant thing of like, maybe it's like, it feels like there's saliva that you need to swallow or whatever. And so, it feels like, oh, drinking some water helps it. Opens it up a little bit.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get that.

Tommy: But maybe there's a little bit of that because, you know how you always said that when I was stressed?

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: No, so maybe this has been an ongoing thing, but now it's more conscious.

Josh: Well, it's like, yeah, you, you sip back. It's amazing how many sips you've had. I want to do a sip counter for the show.

Tommy: Yeah, we can.

Josh: Doing, doing. Um, no, but I mean, I can't. Yeah, I guess. I mean, for me to, I would have to go through this thinking where I'm judging why you're not wearing those jumpers, which is silly. It's like, that's almost negative. Where I, if I was to say, I just see that photo and I then think, why wouldn't Josh be wearing those? It's like, that's, I think, silly to go down there because it's like, who am I trying to, who am I trying to protect. Like, I don't see— this is where I would— in that moment, people who say that's not advice, like, where's that great jumper that you own? Or something like that, nice piece of jewellery that someone has. It's like, fuck, I love that t-shirt. It's actually a compliment that you have these great things. I was like, I'm mainly looking for a handout.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: Where are they? Do you want them anymore?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Can I start wearing your Saturday's jumpers?

Tommy: So It has a feel. I know this isn't what it is, but it has the feel, especially have the feeling. Yeah, yeah. I have the feeling that it, it comes across as it feels like the equivalent of you're at my funeral and, and I'm, I'm lying in the casket and it's an open casket and you're like, mate, surely you're not putting the watch in with him. Can I have to kind of the watch?

Josh: You can definitely want your Apple Watch. See, like, you don't need to find friends when I'm, when I'm in there. Check on him.

Tommy: Yeah. Um, no, I mean, that's—

Josh: I understand. So the— what—

Tommy: but then when you're feeling—

Josh: someone who, yeah, considers their weight like you, what's the sensitivity level that other— if you were to look at somebody else and say they had a mate that thought about that stuff as much as you do, what sensitivity does the mate need to have? And where is it productive? Like, where do you actually, uh, where is it Is it productive for me to be tiptoeing around that stuff for you? Not that I am even flagging anything with you. I haven't. I never do.

Tommy: I don't know. I'll give you an ex— I'll give you an example of like where I think, like, so this is obviously with me, like this one sits with me, uh, or it's like a me issue. But I was thinking like, um, with when it comes to food, you've gotten a lot better. Back in the day, if I would be ordering stuff, you'd be like, why are you getting that? Or like you'd be a little bit more sort of Uh, there'd be a bit of commentation around food. Um, but I do even notice it with Jess where, say, if we were on it, we're on a shoot and she's like had been eating healthy and then she's like, oh, should we get Macca's? Or like we're like driving to get Macca's and you're like, aren't you eating healthy? Those types of things, from my perspective, I'm like, if someone It rarely works in that moment. What you're wanting to get out of it normally—

Josh: What am I wanting to get out of it?

Tommy: I think you're trying to help. Like you're saying, hey, you're saying you want to eat healthy, but you're about to have Maccas. But I think what it does is it goes into a shame area for a lot of people.

Josh: Yeah. It's interesting when people are 80-90% noisy about the thing that they want to do. And then they're changing in front of you or you're seeing them. It's like, and so, that's where—

Tommy: But external intervention rarely works in that way, right? Where it's like in that moment.

Josh: Oh, but sometimes it does.

Tommy: Sometimes it does. But I think that I personally think that it can be, it can be triggering for people where I think that you end up Like, so for instance, the whole like, can I have your jumpers? Or even like sort of suggesting, if you're not wearing them, can I have them?

Josh: That's a joke, by the way.

Tommy: You wouldn't know. We've spoken about it before, which like, I guess, hey man, if you're not wearing the Saturdays, like, I'm happy to have any of them.

Josh: I don't think I said that, though.

Tommy: Yeah, you've done. Yeah, like, back, like, this is going back, like.

Josh: But I wouldn't have even connected that because you, it's like you weren't minimal, right? Like, you ended up wearing the same fucking t-shirt. But then you got all these great clothes. It's like, are you a— see, I literally don't connect it to the weight thing. Yeah, I hadn't like until this moment.

Tommy: I think that from a personal perspective where I land on it is it's like TJ saying, hey, can I have your old tops? Is cementing that like, hey, this is the weight that you are, you're not going to get back to where you were.

Josh: And that's totally on you, dude, because that's not what I think.

Tommy: But I do— sorry, I think that that language is wrong. It's not on like, my feelings are real. And so, but are they?

Josh: Yeah, so it's real that I think that. So it's not truth.

Tommy: It's not truth. Yeah, it's not saying—

Josh: Oh, you can acknowledge that feelings are there, they're happening.

Tommy: But if we don't, if we just go around being like, hey man, it's not my responsibility what people's feelings are, um, because you have chat— like, you have changed a bunch in your approach, which has then helped. So, it is a consideration.

Josh: Yeah, but it's pretty heavy to say that, like, to that storey you just said about me saying that that's cementing you at this thing that you can't get back from. Like, that's not healthy for you in terms of, like, that, that's like anchoring it for you because it's not actually what was said or it's not actually what I think.

Tommy: So, if I'm at the office and you say Uh, man, uh, won't you shave your neck? What— how am I meant to feel in that moment?

Josh: So there's a bunch of different ways you could react.

Tommy: How should I feel?

Josh: How should you feel?

Tommy: Or how— or how— like, what's the natural response that anyone would feel?

Josh: Yeah, fuck yeah, I know, dude.

Tommy: So that's not— so Is it a—

Josh: I've got to do it.

Tommy: So, does it feel good?

Josh: Well, I don't know. That's up for what's going to— I don't know. It could be varied. It's not— I don't think it's to say— I don't think it's meant to feel bad. So, you're sensitive across the board like that? No, because I don't think—

Tommy: I think that if I— So, for instance, if I— Like, I think about it in regards to like stuff on your top. If you have stuff on your top, I'm like, TJ knows he's got something on his fucking top. Do I?

Josh: This is the thing. This is— I think we're coming from two different places. You're so sensitive to other people's feelings.

Tommy: I'm empathetic of like, have I got something on my fucking top?

Josh: No, I'd want to know, dude. No, but the thing is, because most of the time I don't fucking know.

Tommy: I got shit on my shoulder from Bodhi the other day.

Josh: I had chocolate and Texta. 2 different spots. Didn't know. Didn't know for a while.

Tommy: Yeah, but I think that, so, like using the neckbeard part.

Josh: Most of the things, I'm not sensitive in that respect, not negative or positive. I just, I'm not.

Tommy: So, you don't criticise?

Josh: I don't get triggered in that respect.

Tommy: So, you get triggered in a different way though, right?

Josh: Yeah. And so, what I'm saying is that's obviously a reason why I might say things.

Tommy: But so, your version though, so you don't have an issue when it comes to your looks. But you have issues in regards to complex— like a complexity around, uh, me thinking you're dumb. Or like, do I? Yeah, like you've— like we've spoken about it before, like you've— where you're like, Josh, you're trying— like, you're— I feel dumb in this moment, right? Which is probably a good version, which is like that feeling that I don't think I'm dumb.

Josh: So it's like, I don't— that feeling, that feeling, believe what you're saying. Like, the storey for me isn't like—

Tommy: But this is my point. So if I don't— if I decide to have, like, to not shave, and you've said, hey, like, man, why don't you, like, shave your neck up? Like, in that moment, I'm like, I'm actually— I'm good. Like, I'm good. Like, I shave my neck when I, like, want to shave my neck. And so when you say that, it's like, what, uh, it— the only thing it feels like is a place of judgment.

Josh: And I don't even think I said it as like, you should shave it. I was referencing it in like, fuck, it feels good, feels good. Which it's not like it's sounding like a come in, fucking— like the way it sounds, yeah, but I think the way it happens is such— is, is so convoluted in the feeling, yeah, that you're having.

Tommy: But then I think that if you tie that up with safe where it sounds like you're like, I'm painting you in the picture.

Josh: You know, that's what I'm saying. You sound like you're painting me like—

Tommy: But listen, but it's worthwhile mentioning. Like, if you, if you catch— like, you've caught up with people and be like, fuck, they got fat. And so for me, who has gotten fat, when you're saying, hey, the neckbeard thing, and then you're saying, oh fuck, person's gone a bit fat, like, for me, you said that, you did.

Josh: But so Who said that?

Tommy: You did, about like one of our mates.

Josh: I can't remember it, but the— and so that— but that's how you're tying it back to you.

Tommy: So what I'm saying is that is you saying, oh, that person's gotten fat, and then, hey, you shave your—

Josh: like, see, no, no connection. Absolutely. So if you're saying that person's fat, but I, I see where you're connecting the dots in your mind, but that's where it's not. It's literally not, dude. I hand on heart is not why I say any of that stuff.

Tommy: No, but so the thing— But so if you're judging someone else, but everyone—

Josh: We all judge other people, but that's— We're all trying to— You're doing the fucking detective work Sherlock Holmes style to try and connect everything I say to some sort of subtle cues to tell you that something.

Tommy: No, but I think that they're, they're not subtle cues. I think it's an unconscious So if you were saying you can't, you can't—

Josh: this is the problem with saying people's unconscious is that it's, uh, it's un-fucking-conscious. You don't know, I don't know. And so you can't say that because it's— there's no connection.

Tommy: So why can't I?

Josh: It's like when you said that you, you think that I— something about not wanting a fat business partner, which I laughed because it's like I'd never even thought that sentence in my fucking head. I don't know who's thought that. You're a monster if you think that.

Tommy: But I think So, what I'm saying is I'm not saying this is how you feel. What I'm saying is this is how what you do makes me feel, which I think is all that I can do, right? Yeah. And so, it's like when—

Josh: But at which point do you listen to people's words for what they are? Or when are you— And so, because I think you listen to your feelings and what you think about what people say more than what they say. And so, it's like words do matter.

Tommy: And so, then do you just become...

Josh: Honesty matters.

Tommy: So, do you just then become numb to what people say?

Josh: I think there's an... I think there is a positivity in being a level of numb to what people say.

Tommy: Do you care how I think about you?

Josh: Not really. Not a great deal.

Tommy: Like, I think that from close people, I care what people think, like the close people that I work with, the close people that, you know, like—

Josh: I'm sure there'd be something that you could say that would affect me, but I don't think I'm— I'm not hyper-triggered by emotionally, and I don't then dive into that. Like, if I get heightened, I'm like, I'm getting heightened about something, like the feeling.

Tommy: But it's not even a heightened thing. So, it's just a disappointing thing, right? Which is like, If—

Josh: But I think it's actually disrespectful for somebody to hold the weight in the emotional response that you have when it's— when— if it's a friend and they haven't fucking said that thing.

Tommy: But you have said all the things I'm saying is the neckbeard thing.

Josh: But it's not because I think you're fat and it would make you look less fat. That's how— what you just said.

Tommy: So if you say this person's gotten fat—

Josh: No, but it's not the same. That was never the same conversation.

Tommy: But so that— so the thing is, if I'm just walking around And so, these are the things that happen in a single— If things happen, if this happens in a single day, if it's like, hey, would you like—

Josh: It wasn't a single day.

Tommy: Yeah, it was within like a 24-hour— Like, it was literally back to back. Because the thing is that the reason why I bring it up is because—

Josh: I want to see that photo.

Tommy: Because—

Josh: So, the chances it was not the same day.

Tommy: That's why it feels—

Josh: It was another week. I literally got pushed a photo of you in this, you and me.

Tommy: Do you think that you're listening to what I'm saying right now?

Josh: I think I'm listening, but I'm trying to tell you that what you're saying, the dots you're connecting aren't there. There's no case to be brought around.

Tommy: So, but this is— So, this is— You can either listen to me, you can either say, okay, this isn't about listening to you. What I'm saying is this is how it feels.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so, this is even worse. How you're responding makes me feel worse because what you're saying is, mate, you're fucking crazy.

Josh: Well, okay.

Tommy: You're connecting dots like this isn't here. The thing is, you did say the stuff about a friend being fat. You did say that—

Josh: I don't know who you're talking about.

Tommy: The thing with the neck, like, the neckbeard stuff. You did say, why don't you wear the nice clothes? Like, you've got so many good clothes, why don't you wear any of them? So when you say, why don't you wear any of your good clothes, what's the implication there? That I— the clothes I wear aren't nice?

Josh: No, I didn't say good clothes. I said, where are you Saturday?

Tommy: You've got so much great stuff, why don't you wear any of it?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so the react— the reason is, is because I don't fit into it because I put on too much weight. And so But can you understand? Can you understand though?

Josh: Yeah, I understand that that feeling is shit based on dots you're connecting that aren't true. And so I don't understand how that— I think that identifying that feeling is like, what's, what's more positive? What am I meant to do?

Tommy: So what am I— So what you're—

Josh: People are loving this, by the way.

Tommy: But what are you—

Josh: This is a day-to-day.

Tommy: What are you describing? What you're describing is Josh, you need— which I agree with, right? I agree. I'm not saying control your controllables.

Josh: I'm not saying you should not feel that way. I'm saying how are you viewing the way you are feeling and what weight are you putting on that feeling? I'm not saying don't feel that way. I'm saying observe the feeling, observe the emotional response to these things, observe the dot connecting that's happening when your mate is telling you that's not what I was feeling. If I literally thought that you need to shave your beard because you're fat, I wouldn't fucking say that. I would never say that.

Tommy: But this is the thing. So, but this is why it feels more unconscious. Or like, so that's not your intent.

Josh: You can't point out unconscious because it's not there to point out. You don't know. So you can't say— you're not the guy who can spot unconscious. I don't think that's how it works. No.

Tommy: So, but what I can do is I can communicate how something makes me feel, which is back to what I'm saying.

Josh: How are you then viewing that feeling, because that feeling makes you feel no good. And that's— and, and I can, I can apologise for making you feel that way, and I'm sorry, and I didn't mean for it to come across like that whatsoever. And I didn't actually mean that, but I think that way.

Tommy: So from a sensitivity perspective, like, what I think is interesting though is like, so, but there is benefits in like the sensitivity of stuff, right? So for instance I think about, um, like, I think about the sensitivity of, like, say with the clothes thing, like, I'd never bring, like, I would never bring up, uh, someone's clothes, or I would never bring up your, like, so for instance, I would never say, oh mate, your shoes are looking a little ratty, or whatever it is, because the thing is, like, you might not want to be spending money on your shoes.

Josh: But that's a different— me, you say, oh, so where are your awesome shoes that you had? I'd be like, I fucking I've used them, they're, they're like done.

Tommy: And so the thing is, but what, how, but so it's not the same.

Josh: You, you can't compare saying, so maybe your clothes are fucking ratty, buy new ones, so versus, hey, those, I just saw this photo, where are you Saturday? Like, you got those fucking awesome shit, where is that?

Tommy: And so the thing is, from an Awesome Shoes, but like using that example, if I was like, man, where are those awesome shoes? If The problem, the problem with that is it's like, okay, well, why aren't you wearing the shoes? If it's a clear thing of this, like, oh, like the problem I guess I have with it when it's why aren't you like— So, using the clothes example, why don't you wear your awesome jumpers or whatever? I can see how without all of the stuff that I'm dealing with personally, it would have no effect.

Josh: And so, how do you expect to Like, it's a hard journey. And I empathise with the journey of travelling through the world where someone can set you off by saying, where's your nice jumper? When like— But so, everything's different.

Tommy: So, for instance, like, so, if I was to say from a place that is so innocuous, is that the word? But like something that's like not at all Uh, uh, that does— has no intent. If I was to say, man, why don't you go like, um, man, there's so many good restaurants, why, why don't you go to more restaurants? Or why don't you like— well, like, man, don't eat— eating— fuck it, Bulleen has some fucking great places, why don't you? If you're like strapped for cash or if it's like, fuck, Bodhi needs to be in bed or that sort of thing, it's not a great feeling because like, why would it be not a great feeling?

Josh: Well, because the thing is, it's like, yeah, I think we're in a world that is People are so fucking sensitive, and it's very, very negative for their life.

Tommy: If you're triggered by that, so you're like—

Josh: so I'm not, I don't— I'm not on the same fucking field as it. Not at all, dude.

Tommy: So the thing, yeah, I think about—

Josh: because that's not— the person that's saying there's some great restaurants around just fucking means there's great restaurants around. Why buy into things that aren't being said?

Tommy: So if I said— so what's it for?

Josh: It's actually—

Tommy: no, not, man, why don't you go man, why don't you go to more great restaurants?

Josh: So if I said that to you, it's actually not—

Tommy: if I said that, it's like, man, Bulleen, it's got so many great places, like, why don't you go out to more restaurants? Hard. What would you say? It's fucking useless for restaurants. But do you like—

Josh: I don't see it. It's like, no, not at all.

Tommy: You don't say it?

Josh: Not at all.

Tommy: That's interesting because I feel like there's so many things that from a—

Josh: I just, I, I don't want to live a sin that I'm not saying you can't be sensitive. It's the weight you're putting on the things that you were emotionally responding to is the thing to observe there. And I feel for you when, when it is your mate saying it's the jumper thing. And I think— and I don't like— I don't want—

Tommy: like, I think the hard bit—

Josh: I think at what point does your— where does the sensitivity go? You just stop fucking saying anything because you're like, will I trigger him? And so it is a hard one because I think the answer there—

Tommy: but I think the thing is that what gets missed here is as if you do, you don't have any of those sensitivities, which I think you do.

Josh: No, I do, but I also acknowledge that if I am triggered from somebody about something, it is me internally having an emotional response that is energy. And where is it coming from? It's not the other person, it's me. I can't fucking control— I can't control what this person said. If it was malicious and nasty and the intent was to cause an emotional response, I think that's slightly different. But when someone says something and you're triggered, I mean, I do a lot of work at trying to feel, uh, trying to observe my state and what I'm feeling. And so, and I just— and the weight shouldn't be put there.

Tommy: But I just think like, yeah, there's so many— because the thing is, I don't want this to be like a thing where it's like just listing examples, right? But I think that—

Josh: but it's not even worth it. Don't go there. That's what you've even said.

Tommy: But no, but my point being is I think that you're not even conscious to your sensitivities that every day I am considerate of, right? Like thinking, like, I think that what you're describing is this idea that like it's not my job to, uh, to make people—

Josh: So, so this isn't me, I never point out anything. And so at the point of— this would be a whole different conversation if you had a mate that was fucking, mate, you got to get back in the gym, mate, you doing that?

Tommy: No, but so the thing is what I'm saying, having D's— No, but so what I'm saying is that the talk around it can actually be just as impactful than saying you're fat. Rather than saying, hey man, you're fat, you need to lose weight. If you say this person's fat, you should shave your neck, why don't you wear those nice clothes anymore? All of those things, can you see how that can be just as destructive as saying you're fat, you need to lose weight?

Josh: No, because I can see how—

Tommy: I don't think I judge you in that.

Josh: There's a destructiveness nature in the dot connecting that's happening over on your side that you're doing the same thing. But, you know, the problem is you don't want to— because you've— I'm the same, at the same point, if you're saying it's destructive, it's the same as me coming to you and pointing out something.

Tommy: So, it's your responsibility.

Josh: Which is, you don't want to make your mates into the point you put your mates into that area when they didn't do that.

Tommy: So, with me telling you how that made me feel, Because I think that the thing is that you've come from a place of defending your position.

Josh: I'm not defending my position. All I'm saying is that the observing the— I don't think the dot connecting is productive. I don't think any of it's productive.

Tommy: I don't think— I think the dot connecting is— Saying dot connecting implies that I am generating a story, uh, that isn't serving, right?

Josh: Which is true.

Tommy: So there's— there can be an element which is, uh, always think the best intent for someone, which I do.

Josh: And so it's— and it's not to say that you shouldn't connect or feel that way. It's then what do you do with that?

Tommy: And so the thing is, if, if I say, hey, this is how this is— because the thing is, it's— I'm not coming with it. I'm not coming with the energy of, I need to speak to Tommy about this. I'm just saying that, like, it makes me feel bad, and we talk about stuff on the show, and this has just so happened to, to be the thing. I— to your point, in the show notes before we started, it was, yeah, but the thing is, the—

Josh: have some back and forth.

Tommy: Yeah, the If you think about it, I like, to your point, in that moment, I don't like, I don't say, hey, that doesn't make me feel good.

Josh: Or only because I think you go away and think about it and the dot connecting starts.

Tommy: So, the thing is it hurt, it hurts my feelings in the moment. And so, the thing is with the neckbeard thing, but if I said in that moment, oh, is it because you don't like the way that I look?

Josh: I would say, oh, dude, fuck, I'm sorry if you feel that way. That's not actually.

Tommy: So, the thing is that Like, so their elevation of toot, like, like, no. Like, so the thing is that I know that that's like, uh, it's very easy that if I bring anything to you, like, that's not my intent, and but if it's hurt my feelings, and does it matter what your intent was? If, if it makes me feel not great, isn't the answer of like, oh, you know what, like, I probably shouldn't comment on the way 'Josh looks,' um, because maybe that doesn't make sense.

Josh: Topic for you, it's a sensitive area. And so, because you have to identify it as being a sensitive area, otherwise you won't.

Tommy: Yeah, I think that everyone— I think most people are sensitive about the way they, they look. Um, or like, you could say things that would be— and this is the problem with advice So, it's going back to the Harps podcast. It's like that—

Josh: Harps would have a lot to say on this, too.

Tommy: Yeah. The advice that you're giving—

Josh: A lot of advice. Yeah.

Tommy: So, the thing is you don't think that you're giving advice. You're just—

Josh: So, shaving the neckbeard is more advice than saying, "Wear your awesome jumpers." And so, then I get that and it's like, It could, but it literally, it could. So it, I think it's not even like, it's so fucking light. It's like, dude, I have neckbeards. I'm not coming from a place that I don't fuck it. It'd be like a chick saying fucking shave your neckbeard, which, you know, probably is it, but I just think out there, yeah, that would say that.

Tommy: Yeah, I don't know. I just think that there's a, um, so from this conversation Uh, like, it's hard because I don't want to bring it up because this is the response that I get. So, this response I got is not the response that I want because the response that I've gotten from you is—

Josh: What would you like in this?

Tommy: So, the response. So, this is the response that I feel like I've gotten. It's like—

Josh: No, but what's the response that you want?

Tommy: Man, from going into your shoes and like, this is you saying this to me. That makes a lot of sense. Uh, I'm sorry, whereas what you have—

Josh: it doesn't make for good podcast content. Yeah, no, it actually doesn't if we dissect it.

Tommy: Yeah, but what you've— but what you have said is you connect dots, not everything that you think in your mind is real, and society is crazy and oversensitive.

Josh: Yeah, and but that's in a podcast where we are breaking down.

Tommy: No, but I think that this is the reaction that I would expect off the podcast too. Yeah, I think that if anything, a podcast, we probably bring a 3%, 5% better version of ourselves thinking that there's other people who are here judging what we're saying. Um, and so I don't, I don't think if the microphones were off you become fucking Mr. Sensitive.

Josh: If you came to me and said like in that state of the— when it's threaded into conversation, then all of a sudden you're just dropping in and then bringing up all this. That's where it's like, if you actually said, man, I'm pretty fucking upset. Like, if you— if I don't think I would match, I don't think I would necessarily try and dissect it like this if you'd come to me upset. Because why would I— wouldn't—

Tommy: and so the thing is, but so I wouldn't want to—

Josh: but that's the point.

Tommy: The point is that like The hard bit is I'm wary of the sensitivity, or wary of like being— So what you've described, what you've outlined in regards to people are too sensitive and all that sort of thing, coming to you upset sort of plays into that snowflake, oversensitive, just get over it type of thing.

Josh: And so the thing is, or is it honesty? Is it truth? Like, why do you need to be that guy? So the snowflake—

Tommy: But so the thing is that I've been honest with you. And the response has only made me feel worse.

Josh: Well, that sucks. I didn't— I don't—

Tommy: Do you understand why?

Josh: I think, yeah, yes, in respects to understanding that you were—

Tommy: Because the problem sits with— So, the thing is that I shared it with an idea that we could, as mates, say, oh, you know what, like, this actually makes there's some sense here. Your feelings are real, Josh. My— but what I can say is like, that wasn't my intent. Um, and so the thing is, the problem, I guess, where it lands, and this is what's hard, is it's like I don't want to have to— like, so where I feel like it lands is this justification thing where I need to— like the, the whole like restaurant example and all that sort of thing. It pains me to be like, the only way that you're going to get perspective is if I find an example that you can relate to, which I understand. But I think that it's like, yeah, it doesn't—

Josh: It's not that I can't understand that you're not feeling great about it.

Tommy: You just don't care.

Josh: No, it's not that.

Tommy: But do you understand, though, that like if you say, I understand and this is the response, can you not see that what you bring out is, man, connecting the— Like the answer here is you're oversensitive and you're connecting too many dots. Like, I don't know what the coping mechanism— So, like, one is, and this is why I do for the— When you talk about stuff or when you say stuff, what I normally say to myself is, this is— This— There's no malicious intent here in regards to this. But the thing is that the dot connecting is a thing where it's like, if, if something makes me feel a certain way. So it's like, oh, TJ, uh, for some reason doesn't like the way that I look. Um, and because that's, that's what I'm seeing in my head, right? Like, I'm watching old videos and being disappointed in the way I look. And so if, if I'm feeling that way and I'm like looking at video, I'm like, oh man, I can't believe how much weight I've put on. And then having those things said.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a dark place.

Tommy: It's not—

Josh: I don't lie. I feel for you in a dark— that you're in a dark place about that stuff. And so, and that you're struggling there. And so, that's what I get. I do, I do, I do get that.

Tommy: But I guess the thing is that the question is, does As a, as friends, is there any, not even responsibility, any thought in—

Josh: No, of course. So you're— I guess the question is, what, where do I go from here? I have, I have to be considerate about any, anything relating to your appearance.

Tommy: If I say whatever I think, is there a zoom out, is there a zoom out version? Because I think that part of it is like the feedback of, oh, just like, don't mention the weight. The thing is like, it's never going to change.

Josh: And it's not a joke. I didn't say, I wouldn't say it like that.

Tommy: I think that the thing, the hard part for me is why it never is fully reconciled is because where it lands is your feelings remain the same way in regards to how you feel. Like, I know that you can't, you can't control your feelings about how I look. Or what you think about how I look. And so the hard bit is it's always— all I know that you've done is not talk about it now, if that makes sense. So like, I— which, which— but that's it. But that's, that's the annoying thing about it is it's like— and that's not, that's not a criticism of you and saying like, oh, you fucked it forever. But what I'm saying is like, for me and where it all is, like it does sit. And just because you're not saying those things anymore doesn't mean that— like, I— you've just gotten better at filtering and triggering. And hopefully over a period of time, I can build up the self-confidence to not have to have that as an impact.

Josh: Um, anyway, yeah, yeah, I mean, people have walked away thinking that I've yelled at you, fat cunt. No, no, it's like, that's literally how it sounds. But it's not. And I don't think about that stuff. Like, I—

Tommy: And so, this is the uncon— But there's the unconscious element, right? Which is like—

Josh: Yeah, I think we're too quick to fucking judge people's unconscious nature to things when—

Tommy: But isn't it interesting, though, that like your frustration in this whole thing is that you've been judged? And that's the exact same feeling that I feel. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it's like, I think that like that's like the—

Josh: It's very fucking complex. And that's why we've dived into little bits of it. Yeah, I feel for you, dude. I feel for you. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Tommy: That's okay. All right. Uh, The Daily Talk Show, hypethedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email. See you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Josh: See you guys.