Internalising Vs. Sharing

Tommy: It's a very low barrier to get into the Gronk Squad.

Josh: That's crazy. We've committed to do The Daily Talk Show for 10 years.

Tommy: Hi guys. Hi guys.

Josh: Put it in the calendar. I'd just like to cheque the temperature in the room. I told you my squeegee story.

Tommy: It is outrageous.

Josh: Come on, let's go. It's The Daily Talk Show episode 965.

Tommy: Happy Chewy Tuesday. How are we, everybody?

Josh: I'm really glad that you've, um, Really gotten on board.

Tommy: Should we do Chewy Tuesday now or save it to the end? What do you feel like?

Josh: No, let's do it now.

Tommy: I mean, that is the stupidest question. It is like bringing out a cake to a child and saying, would you like to wait till after dinner? It's your choice. Would you like Chewy now? Would you like cake now or after dinner?

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: You know, the answer's always after dinner.

Josh: Can I also say that we're currently drinking out of Wendy's cups? Yeah. You're drinking out of your Camcorder Club mug as well.

Tommy: Yeah, I go both.

Josh: But Larry, From Kentucky hooked us up with a bunch of these cups. Now, I can confirm that Tommy is the superior water drinker in the office.

Tommy: We did a— There was 4 of us and we did a sculling competition of water and I won.

Josh: Congrats.

Tommy: Thanks, bro.

Josh: But we— But we— The Daily Talk Show cups, which will go beautifully Alongside the Wendy's cups.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: If you are in Kentucky, please go to any Wendy's. Not sure which ones Larry looks after, but just go to any of them. Say Larry sent you.

Tommy: As we've always said, support big business and also support bigcutcompany.com, which is where you can, yeah, put your sort of, put the feelers out there to get one of these big cups that we have coming in about 17 weeks. Because you sent a message, you've been saying they could be here like every day, and then all of a sudden you send a Shipping notification. Our fucking cups are in Compton, California. They're by the docks.

Josh: Well, yeah, I didn't realise you chose shipping.

Tommy: It's funny, people say shipping, it's air freight half the time.

Josh: Yeah. Well, I think that that's how we got such a good cost on them. They, um, uh, and, and because they weren't giving many details as well, it just kept saying en route, en route, en route. Like every hour it would give me a notification, en route. And so I was like, this has got like Like, how many places is this, are these cups going to? And then I got a proper one through DHL, which said going into container. And so, it's leaving Compton. I then looked up, have you ever looked up how far something takes via ship to Japan?

Tommy: I would say from California, 2 weeks.

Josh: Yeah, they said that like the, what I could find was it like a bunch of random like courier companies or whatever. And it's like, oh. Expect to wait up to 45 days. Oh, wow. Essentially. So, but we will have—

Tommy: Hopefully before episode 1000.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: Wow.

Josh: We'll be fine.

Tommy: Anyway, so I got a text message from Ben Fordham last week. It was a—

Josh: Always a good thing.

Tommy: Yeah, it was a photo of some goodies and it's— And it was just Chewy galore, like on a desk. And he said, coming from Hazem. And Hazem is the owner of Redfern, the greatest convenience store in the world, Redfern Convenience Store. He's an entrepreneur like no others, no other. He's a, he's a, he's a Quickie Mart entrepreneur. Like he has the best convenience store.

Josh: It's more than it's. Yeah, it feels like it's more than a Quickie Mart. Well, I mean, it feels, it's actually a brand, Quickie Mart.

Tommy: Yeah, the E-Mart.

Josh: Well, this is like, it's, it's more convenient than it is quick.

Tommy: Definitely. I feel like he's gone rogue on a— He's got some sort of franchise and then gone so rogue and it's now just become its own thing. I don't think that's what happened. We had him on the show.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: It's a convenience store on the corner in Sydney, in Redfern, a suburb called Redfern. And it has everything. Imported Cheetos, cereal.

Josh: Lacroix.

Tommy: Lacroix. All different types of drinks, proteins. Like, it's full on. It's the place you want to go and you wouldn't think it would be there, like in a place like that. But mate. Josh, can you film?

Josh: Yeah, sure. We also did a— Yeah, we did an episode from the convenience store. So, if you just type in The Daily Talk Show convenience store into Google, you will find it.

Tommy: It's called SEO. Anyway, Ben Fordham has sent that through and he's— And I said, mate, this is the best. Thank you. Got the tracking number. Josh said, thanks, mate, so pumped. Ben said, I know Chewy Tuesday is on life support, so I wanted to send some oxygen. So anyways, here we go. I'm, I'm going to unbox it. I actually don't have any, um, any, uh— oh, he's really done a good packing job. He knows what he's doing. No knife. I've got my keys here. Oh, perfect. So today what we're doing, because I actually own this segment now, You're renting it.

Josh: You own it as much as the media owns their Facebook pages. Could be taken by big business, mate.

Tommy: All right, I can already smell it. Oh yeah, there you go. Redfern Convenience Store. That's it. 152A Redfern Street. Okay, we're opening this up. Oh, he packs well, and he packs in some nice, um, you know, it's just this paper. Next Australian census to count non-binary sex. This is good. You get your chewy and you get informed.

Josh: Yeah, great.

Tommy: Okay, so I'm opening up. Oh, it's— yeah, it's just under a kilo. It smells like I'm at—

Josh: oh, oh, there it is. Oh my goodness, it smells like—

Tommy: smells like I'm at the Melbourne Show.

Josh: Can I pick a color?

Tommy: Yeah, pick a color.

Josh: Purple.

Tommy: Purple. Okay, um, so I'm gonna first come out and say, are we counting these, which aren't necessarily chewing gums, as part of Chewy Tuesday.

Josh: It's called—

Tommy: it's— they're called Hi-Chews. And I, I've eaten these before versus something like this where it's a— it's called Drive Gum, energy gum with caffeine and guarana. I mean, you don't— do you want to get fired up on this?

Josh: Yeah, I could have that before bed. It's not getting fired up. Yeah. What one do you want to go?

Tommy: Uh, oh mate, we're doing this.

Josh: So it's Jelly Belly Very Cherry gum. Has it got sugar in it? Just out of curiosity.

Tommy: Very Cherry, naturally and artificially flavoured, sugar-free gum. Dude, I'm all about this.

Josh: Right, let's do that.

Tommy: And they're in like a, um, I feel like a Mon nicotine gum.

Josh: Yeah, they're in those sort of like little, uh, aluminium sort of things. Here we go.

Tommy: Okay. Yeah.

Josh: Oh, okay.

Tommy: Here we go.

Josh: Yeah, you can. Thank you.

Tommy: Oh, it's gone to the ground. But this is, mate, all right, Hazem Benfordham, thank you. There is so many good flavors.

Josh: So it smells like a, um, a pharmacy in the US. Yeah, don't you think?

Tommy: Or as we say, it smells like asthma, which they're all for.

Josh: Oh, fuck, it smells good, doesn't it? Oh, oh, it's got a real cherry, like it's, um Cherry flavor. Asthma.

Tommy: Okay, I'm about that. Mmm, dude, like Dr Pepper. It is, it's like Dr Pepper gum form. Mmm, this Ben Fordham, we've got oxygen, baby.

Josh: Yeah, I'm feeling it. And we've got asthma.

Tommy: Well, I need a Ventolin puffer.

Josh: 12 pieces. Yeah, very good. Thank you, Hazem, from the world's greatest convenience store, Redfern.

Tommy: We literally have a year's worth of Chewy Tuesday segments. And the problem will be, I think the fair thing is it's free game, whatever you say. When one's opened, we finish them. It's done. But we can't open any that haven't been done on the show. So it starts on the show, then if you want to be a pig and smash 6 after this, can't stop you.

Josh: Thank you. Got some lovely messages from yesterday's episode.

Tommy: So where do we start?

Josh: All right. Yeah. So we did a whole episode about the changes of the show, what's been happening behind the scenes. We tried to be as honest as we could be.

Tommy: Yeah. And it's not because we're not honest usually. But one thing we didn't say on that show was the start of this year, before we started back doing this show, we were sitting in the studio before it was put back together because we finished the year doing some client work and we had to pull out all of our gear because we needed to put it all into a production that we had on for our business, Full Stack Films. Big media company, whichever one you want to go for. And we were—

Josh: you were lying on the ground because, I don't know, I actually don't really remember this.

Tommy: And we— so it started upstairs and then it just sort of came downstairs.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: And, and then we were chatting about what we want to talk about this year. And I think in, in— yeah, I think we were looking at— you were definitely thinking about how how much do you want to share of your personal life? Like, you'll always— you have to share. Yeah, anything you talk about is personal to you because it's your experience, first person. But it's about some of the private things. I think they're all like the cockering you got over Christmas, but we haven't talked about it.

Josh: Can we quickly, before we go on, can we talk about the client shoot that we had yesterday? Yeah. And the clients had a monitor, and so they've got your iMac Yeah, we used my iMac, whatever it is, 27 inches, a client monitor to see the video being pushed through so the client could watch, uh, the video that we're filming. Anyway, did you know Jess came up to me during the shoot and she said, hey, just so you know, Tommy's iMessages are appearing, uh, on his computer so the clients can see the messages. And so I like, because Jess had just messaged you, because they're sort of, you know, 15 metres away behind the curtain or whatever. And, uh, and Jess had messaged you about, oh, can we get a pickup here or whatever?

Tommy: Yes, yes.

Josh: Did she tell you at that point that that happened?

Tommy: I'm just looking at my messages, um, I can't see, but I know she did tell me that. I think she whispered in my ear, your messages that are coming through your phone are showing up on the client monitor. And so I was like, yeah, sure, I forgot about it. I was like, yeah, I'll get to that, like hectic day shooting, so I was gonna go fix it.

Josh: And anyway, uh, Amy, your wife, sends you a message.

Tommy: Yeah, that says— she said to me, um, love you, darling, you smelled so sexy this morning, which is an unusual message for her. Like, it was true, it was true, I smell good. I walked in and I had just My mum bought me this, this aftershave, this cologne, and she's like, oh my God, I got a fucking— I got an amazing deal on it. Turned out she'd bought me the aftershave, not the— not really spray.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: So there's a difference. One's like more watery and you rub it on your neck.

Josh: I didn't realise that.

Tommy: But it was half the price and I hadn't used it. And now I'm all about it every morning.

Josh: Oh, really?

Tommy: Anyway, so I did do that and I walked in, I kissed her goodbye. It was 5:30 AM, about to get an Uber to come to the shoot.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And, um, and she did even say, you smell lovely. And so, you know, I got it going, I got it going first things. And so it was nice that she'd followed up. Maybe when I start putting in effort, I will get more messages like that. But then the client said after, it was like, nice to know that your wife thinks you smell nice. I'm just glad it wasn't anything else. Yeah, I've got nothing to hide, I'm not trying to hide anything.

Josh: And so anyway, uh, on sharing I need to take my chewy out, otherwise I'm going to be like—

Tommy: I did it. Yeah, I've got it because I'm going to pick that up. I'm going to pick it up.

Josh: Oh, it goes white. Yeah. On the different sharing stuff, I think just even the design of the show, if you think about it, we've had sort of different types and formats of the show. Some of them have been deep dives with guests. Others have been just you and I chatting.

Tommy: Yeah, well, we went and did it. We did a month of this show where we did like, well, how many guests? I mean, the times where we did go away and we did 20 guests in a month. But like there was a time where we like—

Josh: 5 days there would be guests, you know, every single day.

Tommy: We ramped that up. And the internal workings of a show, if you didn't like the sound of that, we think that that does— I don't even know, like we're thinking that will be more interesting to people.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And then you find out based on numbers that it's not more interesting, like it's not. Connecting or engaging more than when you and I have just been, you know, shooting the breeze.

Josh: But the thing is, I think that not everyone will say whether they like something or don't like something. So, we won't even realise, like half the changes that we've made, we haven't even realised that we've made them. They've just happened slowly over, you know, a long period of time that it can, you can sort of, I don't even think that we were actively saying outside of the Mason thing, which the reason when you're dealing with individuals and your work, like, it's a different kettle of fish. So I can be as honest as I want about things, you can be as honest as you want about things, but we have a responsibility with the people around us around what we share of them. And so that's like with Amy and Bree, what we share. Sometimes we go over the line with that. But that's what you get to do, you know, in a relationship. But so I think that that was like, I don't think we've actively ever been saying, oh, like, we'll sort of be dodgy fucks about something. But we got a few emails, some lovely emails. We got one from Nellie. She said, hi guys, I just wanted to thank you for today's episode. I'll be honest in my below remarks and hope I convey them in the right way. Recently, following the changes you have made, I was feeling really disconnected and did not understand how you could make changes that were clear to us gronks, but seemed you were just trying to ignore the changes you had made. I guess that is a con of previously sharing so much with everyone. I was thinking over the weekend, I wouldn't expect Woolies to explain why they changed their shop setup. So why do I expect you to explain yours?

Tommy: I will say on that point, Nelly, I've walked around Woolworths after they've changed it thinking these fucking dogs. Yeah, I can't find shit.

Josh: And then also shop to shop. Let's just have some consistency, you know.

Tommy: Come on, please.

Josh: I think I needed to look at things more as a business than as a friend— a friendly— a friend relationship. Because let's be honest, even if you don't know me, you kept me sane during COVID and became my friends. Anyway, with all that aside, I truly appreciate your honesty in today's podcast. Even though you didn't owe anyone an explanation, I think it, it was great to remind us all You are in fact a business and need to do what is best for you guys anyway. Unsure if my email's rambling, ramblings make sense. All the best, Nelly. Thank you, Nelly.

Tommy: Thanks, Nelly. That's nice.

Josh: And so, yeah, I think that this was, yeah, across the board, it's hard, like decisions. Yass sent us an email and she said, when are you guys going to do live again? And the interesting thing is it hasn't, it's never been a big decision like we're not doing live anymore. It just ends up being a bit of a practical thing. So, as we started to do more things and had more projects on, we couldn't be as consistent with our timing. We weren't— It was actually really easy when we were doing it remotely to say, oh, we'll just chuck it live at the same time because we had to sort of— We had all the tech set up anyway, whereas in studio it's a little bit different.

Tommy: Yeah. And Ian Gronkijn also emailed through. He said, I think it's amongst other lovely stuff, he's, he, um, he said, I think it's probably one of the most important episodes you've released. I know I was quite sad and confused with the news that Mason was no longer around, which the first time he heard— this is me speaking now— um, that it was on Instagram and we'd written something that you could, you know, gave someone the time to sort of read through the decision-making. But then the episode yesterday was really talking about that in detail. And he said he was such a, such a big part of TDS. Love watching him grow and the crazy stuff you used to put him through that he, you know, said yes to. That was the best thing. That's why Ian loves him, because he, he was the guy that would say yes but probably not that comfortable about it and would lean into it. Exactly. That's where you grow. He said he'd like to thank us for yesterday's episode and explaining what life has been like for BMC. It's easy to forget that the main priority for you guys is running the big media company and making the business a success. So it's easy to forget that there's next to no money in podcasting. Um, yeah, it's, it's interesting because it's— yeah, like, I mean, the thought of— I definitely felt the sense of we weren't talking about it, but that was That was the reason for not talking about it because we needed to make sense and actually talk about it properly. How much have we talked about just off the cuff and it probably hasn't— We're forming thoughts as we speak about many topics. That's the beauty of the podcast.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It's also the downfall if you're wanting to have clear communication about a specific area.

Josh: Well, I think that the other thing too is So, we used to do, I think there was a time where we were doing heaps more in regards to sort of, what would you call it, storey arcs or things within the show, had more things going. But I think for me, what I realised, like, I would create a, like, make a lot of promises. Many of them wouldn't happen. And so, I think that the other thing that happens is you get a little bit, not worn down, but you call your own bullshit around promises and say, you know what, like, what people say is unless you're gonna fucking do this thing, don't mention it. Which is a hard position to be in because then, so if this was, you know, uh, uh, young Gronk, uh, Harry, Happy Harry, uh, texted and said, oh hey, if you, um, are you going to fly a virtual plane on episode 1000 like you spoke about a while ago? I'd forgotten.

Tommy: It sounds like a dumb idea.

Josh: What for? It'd be fun. And so anyway, yeah, there was a bunch of those where I was like, if you think about it, there were the clubs, the book club, the adventure club, the life hack club. They were heaps of fun. We didn't necessarily have the momentum, the energy, the time, the interest to do the things all the time.

Tommy: I did one book bike ride. You did one book club. And I think Mace dealt up a bunch of, uh, life hacks.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Um, that's it. That's a fulfilled promise.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. Uh, but yeah, but I think that like everyone during 2020, everyone's starting to reflect, you know, what do I want to share? What do— like, um, you know, what's the, the point of all of this?

Tommy: Um, and, um, I mean, for you, what is the— what has the response of Having the insight into a few people's minds. You've got some lovely comments on YouTube. This was, um, we got one on, um, Instagram. Appreciate the talk today, guys. Trust the process. A bunch more similar to that. What did Ryan say?

Josh: Yeah, Ryan on YouTube said thanks for the episode, appreciate the honesty and transparency, really impressed that you guys are having this sort of chat publicly. Giuseppe said 100% understand keeping certain things to yourself, but the transparency in this episode is really appreciated. Rooting for you guys even more.

Tommy: Yeah, it's a funny one because, so I go, what? So I think it was even last week, and it was probably like, at what point do you take into account the context that you're in? So last week, I reckon I was fucking feeling like, mate, I'm done. Not that I— so this is why I don't say it then, because I don't feel like that this moment.

Josh: I'm done.

Tommy: I could fucking easily go and get some job where I'm I'm not having stress and not worrying about staff and not worrying about my getting business for my, you know, for the business, worrying about what Josh, you know, like all of that.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But then what degree do you need to stop and go, context, we're in a fucking pandemic. It was a lockdown. There's potential stresses on the horizon that aren't yet come to fruition, but all real.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Money's real. You know, the business is real. Things need to happen. And it can all be taken away. And so, and that's why I don't verbalise necessarily everything in those moments of darkness, because I'm like, and here's what I don't know, is it not like if I came to you and said that, you and I would just probably, you know, talk dark for a bit and not without other than going, yeah, well, we're gonna do that tomorrow, we're gonna get back to it tomorrow. And so it's hard because at what point do you hold back on addressing these things? Because there is a version of working out. So, you feel down knowing going to the gym— Literally, that's exactly what happened last week. I went to the gym at like 5:30 AM. I was on fire that day. Like, I felt fucking like 150% better than the day before. I was like, how's that work?

Josh: But it's also like the whole idea that thoughts aren't facts. Yeah. And so the idea that you have, I guess you want to be around people that can understand. And if you can't even reconcile it, if you can't understand, I think that, um, I think there is a generational thing to this as well. Like, um, having many conversations after the episode went live, my older friends tended to be nervous about the transparency, or not even really nervous is probably not the right word, but it's just I think that, uh, the older generation would tend to say, you know, like, you don't need to tell people everything. Like, it was a really, like, you know, saving face a little bit, or, you know, what is this going to do? Like, is it, you know, is it setting up you know, your clients, like, are they going to think, oh, like, these guys, you know, are they okay? That type of thing. But I don't think, um, I don't think that that's a, uh, something that we worry about.

Tommy: It's hard to be in that state and then ask for help if you are fucked.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So I just, I feel like it's too far of a leap if you've just kept everything in. And so I don't know the— I don't know where it is, and and what the line is or where you should. I think it's personal about what, what your ability is to, you know, cope with these things and what coping mechanisms you do use that alleviate some of those stresses. But I just imagine if you— there's heaps of stuff we haven't talked about with our business and the struggles. But here's a good thought. If you've thought that the times where we have been sharing a lot have been good times, probably the hardest times. If you think about that, like the hardest times of our business have been the times we've probably shared a bunch in terms of our personal life and Mason. But we haven't been talking about the, the anxiety-producing mission that can be a business.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And not being where you want to be.

Josh: Yeah. Also, I think we're going back to the format of the show. I think that we are still figuring out what we want the show to be, which is fine. Like, I think that we understood that there's a process of showing up, but this is going to evolve. This is going to become what it needs to become, and it's not going to stay the same. Like, we're not staying the same. And so if the individuals within—

Tommy: I'm wearing Crocs.

Josh: You're not the same. I'm feeling great. Um, and so that's what I like. What I like is that the daily talk show can be whatever we want it to be. I do think about the consistency. So what, what I feel that we bring, uh, for Gronkhs is that consistency, that you know that you've got something that you can put on, you can listen to, you can sort of, um, detach from whatever your reality is and listen, listen to us, you know, whether it's talking about serious stuff or, or having fun. And I think that, that, that is the key, the key thing that will always stay the same.

Tommy: Um, which, yeah, I think it has. And so if I was to understand why, without— so you can always look back and think, what was the strategy that you didn't even talk about that actually ended up happening? And if you don't think you have a strategy, that is the strategy. No strategy.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It's, um, the, the reason we don't bring stuff up or have talked about it, like, one of the reasons is trying to work it out and articulate it properly and wanting to give it the best version of delivery or whatever. But it's also like the last couple of months have actually been like fun, the show, for you and I. Yeah. And that's important.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And that's at the cost of not necessarily talking about everything that's going on, but just enjoying what we're doing.

Josh: So, we spoke a bunch over the weekend. We spoke a bunch on the weekend about social media.

Tommy: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm fucking stilted.

Josh: I mean, so the thought is that, you know, we go through, you know, I was reading a book, you know, there was a guy in the documentary, The Social Dilemma. Is the one that was sort of the, um, one of the OGs of virtual reality. I think he's got the big long dreadlocks, real arty looking dude. He's got a book, dude.

Tommy: That guy telling you that virtual reality is going to be a thing 15 years ago?

Josh: Shut up. It was even like this longer. Yeah, yeah, it was like a long, long time ago. Wow. Um, he, uh, he has a book, uh, 10 Reasons to Delete Your Social Media Accounts Now.

Tommy: Um, short or long, or just like a one-page audiobook?

Josh: So I'm not sure, not sure. I'm just sort of going with the flow, listening to it. Oh, you are listening to it while I was vacuuming? Yeah.

Tommy: Oh yeah, no, nice.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: What was that? What was the takeaway? Is he, is he dropping anything that— I mean, is he— clearly it's in the title, he's not on, he's deleted them all.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. So I think that, um, a lot of it is around we are being manipulated every day with, with these tools. And so the— we've spoken about this many times before, but I think that the feeling that we have, the questions that we have around, do we need to be on these platforms? What do they do? Like, what happens if we don't engage on these platforms? What can we do instead?

Tommy: Is there a book called, uh, 10 Reasons to Stay On? Well, is there a book called, um, surviving as a business without social media in the 21st century?

Josh: I mean, I think that there's heaps of businesses that do. Like, yeah, this is the thing, like, how, how many actual clients do businesses get through social media? Some of them a lot, but if it's a relationships game, if it's all those other things, maybe, maybe we're overbaking how much we need it.

Tommy: Yeah, that's definitely true too.

Josh: But we also don't do a good job. Like, I don't— I've never done a good job of responding to comments. Like, it's always—

Tommy: Yeah, one thing I was just going to say is, do you think you need to do a good job? Like, if you were to reframe what it means for success on those things and what it means— Because what it automatically does for a guy like you is you're thinking of the optics of what people are thinking about, what— how you're doing it, how you're being perceived, which is a version of What needs to be thought about.

Josh: If you're building relationships. So, the thing that's always annoyed me about our social media or all of that sort of thing is we've never been good. I've never been good at responding back to people. And so, if people are going to spend the time to comment and then we don't write back, it sort of sends a conscious-unconscious message that it's like, are we not listening?

Tommy: But I mean, think about anyone who you like, and no comparison to how big we are, but like the bigger people.

Josh: But they still, like a lot of them do, like look at Dave Vela, like spends, you know, 15 minutes after. The thing is, in 15 minutes he could have a bunch of comments.

Tommy: Well, you've got the, yeah, you've got a pool of comments.

Josh: But I don't think like he was at the beginning, like just responding back. I think that people who do social media well are wired that way that they can— like, I'll just sit on comments for ages and think and like, really? Yeah, like, but I never write back, but I'm like thinking about, oh, what can I write here?

Tommy: Or like, and so you see the people that get back to people with emoji, they just go through, it's just shakas, fuck, yeah, fire symbol, like it's clearly just Ticking a box. Ticking the box, getting back. And so, yeah, who's— what is that all for? Like, does that suffice? You pay someone to do that. And so then what's that like?

Josh: Yeah, what is the point of all of this?

Tommy: Um, or if you can— if you could de-escalate— or not de-escalate, de— um, if you could take away some of the meaning of it that you apply to it, maybe then it is like zero fucks given, but not in a zero fucks like, I don't care about you people. Because there's a— I think there's a difference between the arrogant chance.

Josh: So, but the thing is, do people notice the difference? I think that part of it is that for a lot of people, social media is their reality.

Tommy: Well, yeah, I mean, so Facebook have shut down all the news publications on their platform. And I was reading an article of this woman, had to go to the website, you know, had to go to the actual fucking news site to find this. But of course, it's a woman who's a single mum of a couple of kids that she said how disconnected to the world she feels because her window to reality was through Facebook. I was like, oh fuck, that's a problem for you. Because if that's that's your window, it's manipulated, it's distorted. Look at your actual window and you'll probably see a fucking other house or a, you know, apartment or a park, whatever it be, or bars if you're in jail. But like, that's the real reality.

Josh: And so what's stopping you from getting off social?

Tommy: Um, uh, yeah, the unsure and, and Maybe the unsure— unsurety, unsure, being unsure about what that even does, what that even means, what we're doing, what the impact will be. There's a difference if it's an experiment for a month because I don't think—

Josh: How does social media make you feel?

Tommy: Um, I mean, other than just a fucking little tickle in my, um, gooch when I get, you know, a bunch of comments back about something that I've posted. But I mean, it's— there's a— there's an in-touch, uh, vibe, you know. I saw Bri posted a lovely photo of the sunset—

Josh: of the, um, rainbow—

Tommy: rainbow this morning. So Jess Lucas, yeah, I was like, oh well, they did, I should do it. I took a nice photo and so I'll post that up. But it's, it's funny because it's so obvious. Anything that, anything that you think is probably go-to, there's everyone— there's so many people, their patterning is, yeah, sunset, you know, sunset or rainbow.

Josh: Photo, Instagram, rainbow photo, Instagram. But this is exactly— this is what we're all doing.

Tommy: And so there's a—

Josh: we're robots.

Tommy: But that's a connection in some respects that you're, that you're making. Bree got back to me about mine. I think I should do— I'll get back to her about hers. Yeah, I love it. Love it. Good perspective of where she is and where I was for the, for the rainbow, the size of it. Interesting that rainbow, depending on where you are, still the arch is the arch no matter which way you're looking from. Well, because you guys were in a different suburb.

Josh: Northside. She was.

Tommy: Oh, she was northside. Ah, okay. Yeah, because then— But Jess, yeah, it's interesting. Interesting. I wonder what, you know, people on the outskirts— This isn't— I mean, I've— I might probably do a full investigation into is a rainbow— Does it look like the same rainbow from every angle? And so it probably doesn't. I'm being a fuckhead.

Josh: Well, so The thought on the social media thing, I feel that there is— it's too easy just to keep them.

Tommy: Yeah, because it's rewarding. You post— like, I was looking at something, mine, 3,000 views on Instagram, like, that I put up. Like, it's— this is the problem. You get a little tickle, you land a viral video, yummy, you know.

Josh: What for?

Tommy: I don't know. See, here's the thing. We talk about keeping it or we talk about what it's done for us. You can't, unless you have a store, a shop set up through Instagram.

Josh: Unless you're Hazem.

Tommy: Unless you Hazem. Why?

Josh: With his convenience store.

Tommy: No, no, no, e-store. Quickie.

Josh: No, no, no. But you know how many people, like Hazem has a great Instagram account that brings heaps of like.

Tommy: So yes.

Josh: And he's active and he's engaged.

Tommy: So he has a product that is sold based on the content. So, but if you were to look at—

Josh: He sells online as well.

Tommy: Yeah. So if you were to look at, uh, a Country Road, you can go into their page, you can click on a photo, it has little dots on it, click on that, shows you the dress, how much it is, you click through, buy it. Very clear reason and very clear to be able to track the success. And so if your— their metric is sales because they're a business, The hard bit is content. What's your metric for success?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so that's where I think the trap can be. Numbers, uh, more and more and more equals more and more success. And so if you were to reframe the success being more specific to the creation and, and sending, shipping, Seth says— Seth Godin— maybe that dumbs down, dulls down the noise that comes from the lack of understanding of what success looks like.

Josh: Yeah, there's a, there's a documentary, a short documentary that we watched, um, over the weekend, Leaving the Internet.

Tommy: Leaving the Internet, yeah. When was that made?

Josh: So that was, that would have been 2013.

Tommy: Yeah, 2013.

Josh: Yeah, uh, and so, uh, it was, um, made by The Verge. Paul, what's Paul's last name? I'm trying to remember. He, um, He basically decided, I'm going to get— Paul Miller decided he's been on the internet his whole life. Don't want to do it anymore.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So, he leaves the internet, spends a year off the internet.

Tommy: Wait, just to break it down quickly. Laundry list. Going off the internet means no phone, like no iMessage, no like GPS, no maps on your phone. So, you have to go burner vibe. And then do you even still use your burner? No email.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Like, like, no.

Josh: How appealing, how appealing is—

Tommy: No NetBank.

Josh: Okay. So, all of those things, like there's a bunch of, and in the 10 Reasons to Delete Your Social Media Account, the author talks about the internet, smartphones, they're not bad. Social media is specifically doing a thing with algorithms and all that sort of stuff, which changes the experience that we all have, we become the product.

Tommy: Yes. Um, if you don't pay for the product, you are the product.

Josh: Yeah. And so, are we Chewy?

Tommy: Because we didn't pay for this.

Josh: No, we're a vehicle for Ben Fordham to get his name out and, and read Convenience Store.

Tommy: I mean, we're just holding two guys who don't need it, anything.

Josh: This is costing them.

Tommy: This is a charity case on their behalf.

Josh: Um, you know what they say, put on your oxygen mask first before you put it on before you help others.

Tommy: Yes, they're good, they're in good condition, they're trying to help a few fellow strugglers out.

Josh: Um, yeah, so I, I don't know, I feel like it, um, that's a conversation that I would love to act upon soon around social media and just bye-bye, like, just going. Yeah, I did it a bunch of times. Obviously I have done it a bunch of times.

Tommy: I— But did you do it then?

Josh: Well, I remember, I guess you've quit smoking if you had just quit it and got back on.

Tommy: No, no, probably not.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, um, in 2009 I deleted Twitter and Facebook and all that sort of thing. Actually, I didn't delete Facebook, I deactivated Facebook, but deleted Twitter. I actually put a profile pickup when I was going for 2 weeks. That was text.

Tommy: 2 weeks?

Josh: Yeah, I said I'm going to be off social media until this date. Like, it's pretty obnoxious, but I think, but I think there is something nice. So on the weekend, I sort of hacked together a day where I wasn't doing social media stuff.

Tommy: Hacked together?

Josh: Well, just like, you mean like didn't, didn't really like create, like I just—

Tommy: What day?

Josh: Sunday. No, it was Sunday or Saturday. I can't remember which day it was. I saw you said, uh, Sunday. Uh, just like not— like he didn't even delete the apps or whatever, but just kept my phone somewhere else, was doing a bunch of writing. It felt so good. It's— I think it's time. Do you want to do it or no?

Tommy: Uh, yeah, I mean, I, I don't feel, um, yeah, I don't— yeah, I mean, I mean both camps because I could have it and just give it the worst effort and, and be okay with that and not be that beat up about how shit a job I do, you know, how fucking whack it is.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, so the one thing is Visit Vic, we did stuff with them. Yeah, you know, we, um, were on MTV's Instagram account talking about things that were happening in Victoria. They gave us some tickets to the tennis.

Tommy: Oh yeah, yeah. And that was only through social media.

Josh: Through social media.

Tommy: So you were irrelevant to them if you weren't exactly on that.

Josh: But maybe that's okay. Maybe.

Tommy: Yeah, but if you do something else, just means you don't go to the tennis.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, you're not a guy who would buy tickets to the tennis anyhow. Nor am I. I haven't, if we're talking about the last 10 years.

Josh: Oh, I have. Yeah, I think one of my first Instagram photos was me at the tennis.

Tommy: Um, you can't— you got paid to go and shoot for Lululemon at the tennis.

Josh: That does not— no, no, no, no, this was way before, like I think 10 years. 2012. Great year. It would have been 2013. No, I think it must have been 2013.

Tommy: Anyway.

Josh: Yeah, social media, fuck it. I feel like there's— I don't have that much to lose, but a lot to gain. But you need to replace it. So, Paul Miller does a year without the internet and then says, you know what, I'm still depressed.

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, it's not funny that he's depressed, but he didn't go outside much. It's interesting because it's— you stop drinking, which I had, I did for a whole year. I think that's taking a break. I can say I have not— I didn't drink. 2 weeks, mate. So you didn't quit the internet? No, you didn't quit Facebook. But I remember thinking, I don't— so there's the person you become when you stop something. You stop drinking, people around you might say you're a better version of yourself. Do you feel in— when they've articulated that, do you feel that you are more content, happier, like you are a better version? Like there's a bunch of things in this struggle I had from a year off was I don't know if I was any happier or sadder.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, the funny thing was that the week that you're talking about that you said was really hard for you, you have externally great—

Tommy: It's called toxic masculinity.

Josh: Do you think it is? Like, so what? No, because I'm just— The Venn diagram of toxic masculinity, don't speak about your emotions, and then being so aware, or like being aware enough that you, um, you're not going to respond and react, where do they cross over? Um, you're trying to imagine a Venn diagram?

Tommy: Yeah. No, I'm just trying to find out where they crossover.

Josh: Like that? Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: But I'm just looking for the crossover point.

Josh: And so, that people would be aware when those actions result in people thinking, "Fuck that." No, the question is, what's the difference between holding your emotions in and understanding your emotional state and not responding negatively to them?

Tommy: Well, I think if I, I 100% understood my emotional state, meaning acknowledging that I'm feeling a certain way internally, so I'm not just— I wasn't caught up in it thinking I'm like not having that awareness.

Josh: So the toxic bit is not acknowledging it?

Tommy: So what if it kept going and next minute you've just ignored 3 years of feeling like shit based on something, a situation? That's— I think there's a, there's a— like, even when I say 3 years, it had to stop at some point. Or I think emotion and, you know, feelings of up and down, that's the constant. Up and down is the constant. But there's— so the stopping point, I think there's just a, the realisation that it, that I will go back to a darker place at some point. But you're— but what, yeah, the thing I don't know, and the question that you're asking is, when do you actually talk about it? When do you share or consult? Because the hard bit is that usually the deeper you go, the less you want to. And so I don't. And so Yeah, so one of the— because if Bodhi asked me, if I— if Bodhi said that to me, you know, it's like you said, you can talk this, uh, if I knew Bodhi was in the dark place like that, I'd be— or Amy, I was like, I want you to talk to me, I want you to tell me about this, which is easier said than done because, you know, I'm a bit inept. I can't— I struggle to talk to Amy sometimes, and she— and I almost get it to the position where she's like, you want to talk about something? Like, she knows I want to, but I'm just a bit fucked that I don't know how to initiate the convo. Which is like, that's just a pattern she can recognise in me where it's like, so you want to talk? You know, it's like, I think a lot of people would have a version with their partners where they want to be prompted. They actually want to be.

Josh: But don't you— I think that your prompter has changed because yours would just be being a grumpy fuck or just reacting. But if you remove that, that was like always like a big prompter. Like if you're getting easily frustrated, but if you remove the easily frustrated bit, it's harder to, to pick. Does that make sense?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: So it's almost like a people cracking or whatever, or like it's an unconscious whether you say it or not, you are projecting, this is how I'm feeling.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you're trying to throw a signal out there, or even try—

Josh: like, it's unconscious.

Tommy: Yeah, unconsciously wanting someone to acknowledge that you're not doing well. And so, yeah, I mean, we've talked about that, like, in a workplace, should you, should you be vocal about it? It's like, it's this is the hard, tricky bit about navigating life. There's culture and there's, you know, um, other people to consider. I think, I think I'm, uh, under— of the understanding that we're all swimming in our own thoughts and feelings and emotions. And so there's a— there's empathy there that I then have for other people, also for myself, about being in those places and then being able to acknowledge that it will change because you do see it change. And, um, yeah, it's a fucking tricky one because there's people who are going through serious shit that are quite happy, like a business fucking imploding. This is the best, they have to do this shit anymore.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so that's a weird one because that for somebody else is the end of the world, the end of their world.

Josh: I think that part of it, like what I'm feeling at the moment and have felt for the last like 3 years— dehydrated, but not anymore thanks to Big Cups.

Tommy: BigCupCompany.com. No, but what is it, mate? Tell me. Um, sorry, I just need to do a bit.

Josh: Uh, I'll do the bit before you.

Tommy: No, I'm just gonna say it. If you don't know if your cup's big enough, there's one way to find out. If you're in a conversation and you go to sip your cup and your eyes disappear from this other person like this, the cup's big enough. You want to be— You want a shadow cast over your eyes. You want to feel like you could be asleep.

Josh: I've nearly had a couple of car accidents drinking. With these cars because they're huge. So I have to actually use the lip like this, off to the side.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I'm not talking about that. Yeah, you drive, drive.

Josh: Don't do that. 3 years you've been feeling a transitional period, like you're just transitioning to, to a nut. Like the— yeah, there's, there's a, um, I think the path that we've picked has, has lacked comfortability in some ways. I don't know, like there's always like a bit of a— and I wonder You know, like I've been thinking around the podcast. The podcast is such a big part of our lives. Think about, you know, what would it look like? This is something that we sort of spoke about briefly, making the podcast private. What would it look like, you know, in a few years' time for it to be a private feed that you have to sign up for? We do email only. It's not on the social, like it's not on social networks. That to me sounds really appealing.

Tommy: Hmm.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, there's a bunch of people that already do a version of that. It can sound quite complex if you're listening and haven't signed up to somebody's podcast that does that. It, um, yeah, I mean, it's who's it for? What's it for?

Josh: Yeah, I think like The— Yeah, like one thing that I realised was we're doing the podcast for us. Like it sounds way more sort of sexy and nice when you say we do it for people, we do it because we want to connect with people, we want to do this and that. But we do it because we like doing it.

Tommy: Which I think for most things that people do, that then have a reward for other people. It starts with them because we've been in a room talking.

Josh: When no one was listening.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so, for all the time that no one was listening, if we did it just for people to listen, we wouldn't do it.

Tommy: You wouldn't. No one would do it.

Josh: And so, but then you can get tricked into thinking, no, no, no, you're going to care about the numbers. You need to. What can you do? And this is the thing. This is what happens. You end up having guests on every single day because you'll get more numbers that way or, you know, those types of things. Yeah. Um, yeah, the private, the private thing's interesting though.

Tommy: I don't know, you driving with a cup is probably more interesting at this point than a private RSS feed. Yeah, it's for people listening. Like, the sight of you getting out of your car holding a big cup wearing Crocs, it's a good look.

Josh: Anyway, uh, hi@thedailytalkshow.com, what do you think? Are you, uh, do you feel like you're just constantly in a state of transition, feeling a little sort of unsettled, let us know. The other thing is, do you have any suggestions on things that you love within the podcast that you would love to hear more? Yeah. So I'm thinking format, like what about, uh, some of the things that I liked growing up? Dig Nation, I loved that podcast, and that was taking the top stories.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: On the social news website digg.com, it's digg.com.

Tommy: So they invented Digg, which was a good—

Josh: so it was like Reddit before Reddit.

Tommy: And so it'd be like if we created Reddit and then we did a segment.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: And so what's on Reddit? That'd be a fucking—

Josh: that was cool though. So they would, they would take the best storeys and they'll just talk about them. So you'd go like, if I get— let's go to digg.com.

Tommy: Does it still exist?

Josh: Digg.com does. Yeah.

Tommy: Does it?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: They sold it?

Josh: Yeah, they sold it. What'd they make?

Tommy: Um, 20?

Josh: I'm not sure. Okay, here we go.

Tommy: Uh, which is not an original format, to be honest. What the most original bit about them doing it is that was their website, whereas now you listen to The Fighter and the Kid or a bunch of podcasts, they've got a producer. All right, hit us, bunch of top stories.

Josh: Okay, so let's try it. Um, With 840 digs submitted by John Michael Poff, the most likely timeline. The next 4 seasons of pandemic life. Daily life should get better soon, then maybe a little worse, then almost surely much better. Though the next 3 months remain a mystery. The summer could be somewhat normal. Improvements could continue into fall and winter, although there is also the chance of modest relapse. And so then we would read the story. I would have an idea of it. Key details: for most of the next 3 months will look like the preceding 12. I'm boring myself. Summer '21 could resemble summer 2019. The following colder months will likely see cases rise.

Tommy: Is this just people I mean, that was 2020, people talking about the future, what the future looks like when no one had an idea. I mean, the States, there's someone who is a scientist at Johns Hopkins University, and they've come out and said that coronavirus could be gone by like April in the States, which is fucking pretty crazy. Herd immunity based on how many people have got it. It's a bit Flexing that everyone got COVID. Oh, yeah. So, it's herd immunity now because we fucked it and everyone got it. Plus the vaccine.

Josh: Yeah. Here we go. I ditched texting and picked up the phone. Submitted. Hang on.

Tommy: I don't get the dig thing either. Is it likes?

Josh: 475 digs. Yeah. So, you just dig a storey and then it would appear on the front page like a Reddit.

Tommy: Upvote. Fuck, it shows you how far gone that term digging is. I was literally thinking about a hole.

Josh: Oh no, dig, dig. Uh, 475 digs submitted. Uh, it doesn't even have a submission, so sometimes it looks like, um, it's, um, outsideonline.com, and they say, uh, they're going to say that they, uh, text message fragment. I'm fucking boring myself. Yeah, anyway, it could be something interesting. I get it, I get an article maybe.

Tommy: Yeah, I get it. I get it.

Josh: I'm boring myself. Okay. Right.

Tommy: So, the question, the how you got to that was—

Josh: Format. What should we do?

Tommy: Have you got an idea? Do you want to hear something? Take your feedback. It's probably worth hearing the feedback coming through email before it's too late and everybody's given feedback on podcast reviews in Apple. There's a bunch of podcasts that are getting absolutely slammed. And it's a bit late because you don't want your— the message board, you know, coming through on podcast reviews.

Josh: Yeah, because they don't—

Tommy: you can't just edit them or delete them.

Josh: Hi@thedailytalks.com.

Tommy: Yeah, we will take your feedback on board, and we love you.

Josh: Yeah. All right, have a good one, guys. See you. Bye.