Instinct & Confidence With The Blow's Phoebe Simmonds

Josh: The Daily Talk Show. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 697.

Tommy: Happy Friday and welcome to the show, Phoebe Simmons.

Phoebe: Hi guys.

Josh: Hello. Just in your car. You're currently—

Phoebe: Yeah, just in my car, just a casual, yeah, just hanging out. Not very scenic, sorry about that.

Josh: No, it's beautiful. Can you set the scene? Where actually are you right now?

Phoebe: Yeah, I'm out the front of The Blow, which is my blow dry boutique on Little Collins Street, and I couldn't get a park in time for the show, so I'm in a loading zone and just hanging out and just keeping my eye out for any City of Melbourne guys in fluoro jackets who are going to tow me. So it might be a thrilling show for you guys. I might get up on a truck or something.

Tommy: I mean, it's not always that we can get a live traffic update from Collins Street. Can you deliver us one, please? Exactly.

Phoebe: Well, it's It's like high construction zones at the moment, so not much space for shitty little 2014 Volkswagen Polos. It's just truck central.

Josh: Um, first of all, I wanted to— I was going to look it up and sort of impress you with everything I know about hair. Can you explain what it actually means to get a blow dry for, for Gronks playing at home?

Phoebe: Absolutely. And, um, just to set the scene, I am not a hairstylist, so I actually don't know anything about hair either, if that makes you feel any better, Josh.

Josh: Great.

Phoebe: Um, I—

Phoebe: so my background is brand and marketing, and I saw a really big opportunity in Australia that hadn't been seized on in the market, um, versus huge trends that were going on particularly in the States, uh, where women would invest in a weekly or twice weekly blow dry. Blow dries can be a really powerful way to help women conquer their day with confidence. So it involves a wash a blow dry and a style. And it means that you're saving a lot of time on doing your own hair. And you can get— whenever you see anyone with really beautiful polished hair, it means that they've put a lot of effort into it as opposed to doing like, you know, a top knot, which is what a lot of people are rocking at the moment. So women rely on blow dries to feel a lot more powerful and confident. And they— a lot of women get them before any big event, whereas a lot of our guests as well who are in corporate Melbourne will get a blow dry kind of once or twice a week at 7 AM before they start their week of work, and so that they just feel a lot more put together.

Tommy: I love that. I reckon there's not, not many, uh, other things or things that I do in life where I walk out feeling confident after getting a sharp haircut and having that sort of massage during it. I mean, head massages They are the best. Can you— I mean, you said you're not a hairstylist, but can you at least appreciate a great head massage?

Phoebe: Oh, completely. And you know what the thing is, hairstylists don't understand. So when I was originally putting together kind of the product menu, I was— I put in an extra 10 minutes for a head massage and they were like, will anyone actually get that? I'm like, dude, that's the best part of the whole thing. Like where you can just sit there. Have you ever had that thing like a Turkish haircut?

Phoebe: Where the guys do, um, like, uh, burn your nose hairs off.

Phoebe: That's like a legitimate thing.

Josh: I've seen it on like Instagram where they do the whole like the, the like actually like burning hair in general, which seems crazy.

Phoebe: Yeah, they like burn your nose hairs. It's part of like a complete Turkish men's haircut. I think that's being offered more and more. You guys should cheque it out.

Josh: How long does it take to do that?

Tommy: I mean, I've burned my nose hair, just not with, not with flame in the past.

Phoebe: Not professionally.

Josh: So, what's the— like, how is it? Like a 45-minute thing, or what's like— what's—

Phoebe: Yeah, yeah, it's 45 minutes. So, wash takes like 10 minutes, and then the blow dry, which is really just using like a hair dryer and like a big rolling brush, and then that adds a lot of body and movement and obviously dries the hair off. And then a style using tongs, so to create really nice bends or curls or waves.

Josh: When you look at like the— oh, you're going, TJ.

Tommy: I was just going to say, um, we've got a video production company and, and we've come from a video background working for other businesses. And so it's like, I've always thought, you know, it's advantageous to have that experience of being the person behind the service and then, you know, getting people on to help with the service. What, what is that sort of mindset going into a business where you're not the, the, the service provider the professional behind, you know, the, the blow wave or the blow dry and head massage. How do you sort of, um, what are the things to look out for going into a business where you're creating the environment that the business is in and doing all the other things but not the service? What are you looking for as someone? What are the learnings that you've had?

Phoebe: Yeah, um, well, I think the biggest thing for me is because I'm not a hairstylist I actually think it's been quite advantageous because my background is brand and marketing for big cosmetics brands. So in an industry where a lot of salons are owned by hairstylists, hairstylists are approaching it in the way that they know, but which is all excellent and great, but I had to lean into my strengths, which was brand and marketing, um, and really understanding the customer experience and knowing what a professional woman wants. And so I was able to build out a very clear positioning statement and a DNA around a brand that, you know, for me, The Blow was never just about blow dries.

Phoebe: That's obviously a part of it.

Phoebe: That's our product. But I'm more interested in how we make women feel and the physical and emotional transformations that we can make. And we stand for the strength of women. There's a really big feminist piece to the work that we do, the events that we run. So obviously we need to do blow dries. That's our bread and butter. But I'm more interested in creating a space where women can come together to lift each other up. And I think that's how The Blow has been able to carve out a really unique place in the market versus just another hair salon that's offering a service.

Tommy: Hmm. Yeah. Well, I think it's almost like beyond the service, right? Like a personal trainer is not a— just a person instructing you to do exercises. You need to be able to communicate, understand humans, um, read emotions and all those things. It's a— yeah, I love that approach. It's, um, I think maybe people that start businesses usually end up in something they've done because they are connected to the service, but it's the same thing, you're connected to the marketing and the branding, which is, is your love. It makes a lot of sense.

Josh: The business side of things, Phoebe, is it like, what is the actual business of— like, what do you have to consider? Is it the— like, you've got the lease, then you have— like, I'm guessing they're like big things that go on your head. Is that like how— like, is that how it works? Like, what's the— yeah, the business behind it?

Phoebe: Yeah.

Phoebe: Um, well, so it took me 11 months from the time that I had the idea to the time that we opened our doors, which was pretty quick, um, considering I was still working for 10 months of that. But there are big ticket items, like when you would do a timeline, and what I did, I did a timeline of everything that I needed to tackle. Obviously the lease is the most important piece and the piece that can really hold you up. So that was about 3 months of finding the place and negotiating all of the terms. And then my— the way that I approached it was all of the operational stuff that I could— I knew that that would be really heavy, um, in the back end of the pre-launch kind of prep, whereas all of the brand and marketing stuff I could do at the start when things were still quite lumpy. Because you know what it's like, you're waiting on emails and confirmations of certain things. So I tried to control all of the things that I could control and create early on, which meant that as things got a little bit more stressful closer to the date around the build and recruitment and training and, you know, council permits and all that kind of stuff, it meant that marketing was already set and ready to press go on, um, in time for launch.

Josh: So did you have a sense then of, of this is how much it's going to cost? Like, I guess if you've got something that's like a lot of assets up front, like, is that something that you, you lease, or like, what's the actual like sort of the deconstruction of understanding things like margins and making sure that you have like a sustainable business?

Phoebe: Yeah, sure. So, um, because we're a service business, um, the way that I did a cost analysis was it's a productivity matrix. So a service business is really fueled by, um, salary costs and hourly wages. So just say a casual worker earns $30 an hour, um, and our blow dries $60, then you need to put in additional, like, payroll tax and super and all of that additional stuff. Then you— and then you add in your rent, um, as a kind of cut of by hour. You really kind of grind it down into, um, like a very formulaic kind of approach. And that's how we manage our books. So we would say, okay, we— if I put 2 people on in the morning or 5 people on in the morning and they're doing blow dries for 45 minutes at a time, how productive for the whole day do they have to be to be able to make a return? Um, so it's, you know, and that was a lot of guesswork at the start, but I came from Benefit Cosmetics, which they specialise in doing brow waxes, so it's a service model as well. So I used that kind of formula to build out what the blow would be.

Tommy: I mean, in— I'm always curious about businesses that sort of put in that real planning before they've opened, because there's the projections of what you think it will do and what you need to do versus when the doors open, starting to get that feedback. What was the sort of big things you noticed from plan on paper to people experiencing Blowbar?

Phoebe: I think it's just I mean, you—

Phoebe: I'm a very instinctive person, so I always go with my gut. I didn't see it as a big risk despite signing a really scary lease and, you know, having people on payroll because I just knew it was going to work, and it has. Um, the thing that was the most gratifying was starting to see people come through the door and then returning, um, and that was, that was incredibly exciting. And, you know, it was a slow start, but you know, as we kind of got the awareness, but we kind of— the rubber hit the road at about the 6-month mark. And with retail, there is an element of being patient and letting, you know, things take their course. And so I'd try and approach it by, um, like only looking for one daily win. And it could be a really nice customer email, it could be an Instagram post performing well, it could be, um hiring someone great, or could be getting a really good piece of PR, whatever it is. It was like, okay, that was my win for the day, and that's okay. Um, because otherwise, you know, the highs are really high and the lows are really low. And I think particularly when you're, um, a sole business owner, you can feel everything, um, you know, in all its extremities. And so it was, it was definitely a learning curve, um, but there was no such thing as kind of a reality because you never know, or an expectation, because you never actually know what it's going to look like and it changes so much day to day. But yeah, in terms of, in terms of those opening few months and the kind of plan that we had in place, we definitely met kind of where we were expecting to land.

Josh: Is there any tricks on introducing customers to sort of a new category? Because I feel like I've seen things like The Blow in other parts, say like the US, but haven't really seen it much in Australia. How do you get people used to the idea of, okay, 7 AM, I get my coffee, I go into The Blow? Is there any like strategies around that?

Phoebe: Yeah, it's a huge part around education. So in the States, it's just understood that blow dry bars exist and it's, you know, I guess once you've got, you know, a certain level of disposable income, it's what you start to invest in. It's the same with nails. It's the same with brows. It's the same with spray tans and eyelash extensions. Whereas in Australia, I saw that the trend had come through with brows and with nails and eyelash extensions, but it hadn't yet arrived with blow dries. So there's a big piece on educating the— around the benefits of on blow dries and head massages, I guess. But more the point, like, you can educate as much as you want, but it needs to be accessible. And so we really built the business around being on— being as effortless for a professional woman in the CBD as possible. So that's to do with location, but it's also to do with being able to book online and being open from 7 AM. So you can, you can educate, but it needs to be something that they can actually easily make part of their lifestyle on a weekly basis.

Tommy: In terms of geographical location of the store, I mean, you mentioned city and CBD, you know, business women before work. How important was it, location? And why did you land on Collins Street?

Phoebe: Location was everything, and I had looked at a couple of sites and none of them felt quite right. And kind of, as I said, I'm quite an instinctive person. So when I saw this space, I knew that it was our space. In addition, you need a certain amount of floor space. So I needed minimum 50 square metres and this was 50 square meters. So in an ideal world, it would've been even bigger to deal with demand on, you know, big demand on Thursday, Friday, Saturdays. But it is what it is. Nice and cozy. But Little Collins Street felt really right to me because it's that top end of town that people kind of call the Paris end. So it's already seen as quite premium and luxury, and there's a lot of tourist trade as well, which was very important to me because a lot of people who are in town for the weekend or they're here for hens dos or weddings are staying in hotels nearby and come to the Blow almost as a destination now. So it's kind of part of their hit list when they're in Melbourne, they need to go to The Blow, which is incredibly gratifying. And yeah, obviously they're being close to public transport and trams and offices is their bread and butter of the Monday 7 till 7, kind of Monday to Friday 7 till 7 trade. A lot of blow dry bars or or hair salons do exist in suburbs, which is great, but I'm not catering to people who are in the suburbs during the weekday because all of my guests are at work. So I don't see any point being in the suburbs because that's actually not convenient for my guests. It needs to be in a place where they can go before work, during work, or after work.

Josh: What was the most effective sort of marketing tool in the early days to acquire customers?

Phoebe: Um, we did a lot. I mean, there was a lot of friends and family and, um, promos and things like that going on at the start. Um, I had a media launch 4 weeks in, and Urban List came in to experience The Blow and wrote a story, and our business doubled overnight, which was huge for us. Um, and so, you know, having that, that online feature— I mean, PR for me, I mean PR is everything, I think. And I think, um, a lot of people make the— well, not the mistake— a lot of people think that marketing and PR is the same thing. It's not. It's a completely different discipline, and you need to really meet the, um, the experts in that field with their little black book and their way of speaking and their way of making connections and telling storeys to do that. Um, so I invested in PR early on. We also did a really cool activation, um, 6 months in for International Women's Day where we, we didn't charge anything for blow dries and we just invited all of our guests to come in, get a free blow dry, and in return we asked them to make a donation to Share the Dignity, which is our partner charity. Share the Dignity provides tampons and sanitary items to women who are homeless and they help to fight for their safety and in support of domestic violence victims. So we thought that that was really a powerful kind of message for International Women's Day, and we raised almost $6,000 that day. Um, we did over 100 blow dries, and people were just coming in and wanting to be part of that experience and be part of that community. And I felt a really big momentum shift that day going forward. And also, you know, the Herald Sun and Time Out and a tonne of publications covered it because it different. So that was, that was a big energy change for me as well, I think, from an awareness point of view.

Tommy: Businesses these days, you almost need to be a content creator as well as the person behind the business. I mean, you're creating a lot of content. What's your, your thoughts on being a content creator behind a business?

Phoebe: Yeah, it needs to be relevant and meaningful, end of story. I mean, there is so much out there, and I think it needs to once again come back to the DNA of the brand and everything that you stand for, because because at the end of the day, if everyone's posting the same memes just because they're funny, um, and cute, and for, in my mind, you know, pink and red because they're my brand codes, I mean, that doesn't set us apart. And so the DNA of the brand needs to come through all of the content that we create and we put out there, which once again is back to our mission statement of helping women conquer their day with confidence. So as an example, with The Blow, I would never post a meme or something that was like, "Ugh, Monday," or "Fuck my life," or whatever, because we're all about positivity and helping you feel really good and strong. So it's, I think brands need to be very careful about the content that they're posting, that it still maintains the tone of voice and the positioning of the brand. In all of its purest forms. But it's a lot of work, like, they're, you know, including Insta Stories. And I'm seeing a lot more Insta Lives and things for brands as well, which is brilliant. And obviously community, community is key, um, and that's what's, um, really driven the success of The Blow. But it's a lot of work, you know, for, for one person or two people, or for a lot of small brands kind of doing it and, and staying to like a cadence kind of strategy.

Josh: Talking on that whole the people part of business, what have you learned about sort of finding great people, retaining them, training, all that sort of stuff?

Phoebe: Yeah, and it's something that, I mean, I've been managing people for a long time, but I'm used to managing kind of marketing teams and, um, and, you know, more of that professional side of things. So managing hairstylists is different, and it was hard to find the team at the start who really understood everything that we're about. Um, so, but once after, you know, a couple of weeks and months, we really got our groove on. And, you know, hairstylists are so passionate about what they do and have obviously really creative people. And so for me, it's about leaning into those, the strengths of theirs, but also acknowledging that I don't have any authority in hair. So I need to give them enough rope to create and I need to listen to their, their insights in how they see a salon working because, you know, The Blow is going to be expanding. We're going into Sephora as soon as we can open up again across like Melbourne and Sydney and nationally after that. So I'm not going to be around in the salon every day. The goal has always been for them to operate independently, so it's just empowering the team to be able to make their own decisions and manage the business like it's their own.

Tommy: So, um, that's amazing. Going to Sephora, you've got a huge behemoth of a business that has probably its own— definitely its own sort of set of values as a company. And then you've got yours, which has its own. How do you sort of mesh those two together and make sure they're, you know, working, uh, it's, it's the synergy between the values of the, of the brands.

Phoebe: Um, well, I think, I mean, the brand, the brand that you create obviously borrows from the kind of values that you really stand for. And I think for me the biggest thing is communication and openness, and, um, I try and instil that in everything that we do and to always be really straightforward and clear, um, not only with our team but with our guests. And, you know, otherwise it just breeds mistrust. And I know that, you know, I've, I've only worked with women my, my entire career. I've only ever worked with women. And I think that, um, something that I hear often is people say, oh, you know, I was never unsupported by my boss, or, oh, it can be really bitchy, or she was trying to, you know, hold me back. I've never had that experience, luckily, but I do know that it exists. And so it's really important for me to create a culture where we can really walk the walk and talk the talk, because we always speak about being a community and a place where women can feel lifted up. It's important to me that my team also feel that they are really supported in everything that they do as well. Easier said than done though, you know.

Josh: I mean, it's amazing what you've built. Like, where do you get the, the sort of the confidence? I guess like that it requires a level of confidence to say, I'm getting the lease, I'm going to do all that sort of stuff. Over the course of your entire career, has there been any key moments where you feel like you've levelled up from a a confidence perspective?

Phoebe: Yeah, I've been— I'm— I guess I was quite precocious early on. I've been given a lot of, um, really great professional opportunities. So I was working at Mecca, um, when I was at uni, and then I moved to London straight after that, and I worked for a company that was owned by Bono and his wife, which was a skincare company, which is a whole other story. Um, and then 2 years into that, we were acquired by LVMH, which is Louis Vuitton Moët Hennessy. They're the biggest luxury, um, conglomerate in the world, and they own brand— well, they own Sephora, they own Louis Vuitton, Marc Jacobs, Fendi, Celine, Tiffany, Bulgari, amongst a million others. Um, Moët Chandon, Veuve. So it was a really great kind of baptism by fire to be welcomed into that world of how they operate. And so I was spending a lot of time going between London and Paris, um, to, uh, learn how to brand and learn how to market a luxury cosmetics brand. So that was a really exciting time. But definitely, I mean, I was 25, I had no idea what I was doing, but you just kind of have to level up and be really excited for the opportunity and Then after that, I was keen, my partner and I at the time were keen to move to Singapore. So I moved to Singapore and looked after Benefit Cosmetics' expansion in Sephoras across Southeast Asia. So I was having to go to India and Indonesia and Thailand and Malaysia and do business with all of these different people with these different cultures and different ways of communicating. And so that was as well. And you're by yourself, right? So you're representing the brand, but, you know, you need to hold firm, particularly when you're dealing with men like men in different cultures. I learned a lot about how to deal with Frenchmen. I learned a lot about how to deal with Indian men. It's, it's completely different. But for me, it was always about steady hand and making really decisive quick decisions. Like, one thing that I learned early on was when you're a manager, if you show any form of uncertainty, it can really rattle. So it's important just to stick with your guns and give one firm direction.

Josh: And how do you do that? How do you— like, when you're in a moment where you're not really sure, how do you become, you know, make the quick decision rather than sort of falling to being indecisive?

Phoebe: Um, I guess, look, what's the worst thing that's going to happen? Like, you've just got to go with your gut, and it might not be right, but— well, actually, no, it's always going to be right if it's your gut.

Josh: Yeah.

Phoebe: Um, and if it turns out to be wrong, then, you know, um, you can, you can own that. But I think the worst thing is just not acting and So I would just, yeah, always go with instinct. And then you can obviously ask for feedback and ask what people think, but I don't think that it's, um, I don't think it does anyone any favors, lots of umming and ahhing and sitting on something for 2 weeks just because you're not quite sure or you need to cheque your facts.

Josh: Yeah, that's interesting.

Tommy: You've mentioned, um, sort of instincts and gut feel. You mentioned going into the space and Little Collins, and it felt right. I definitely have had those moments. It's even with our office, I kind of had this thing where it's, you know, in hindsight you're like, yeah, I really felt in the moment. What does instinct mean to you and how do you explain it? Because it is almost the unexplainable in some respects. That's a tough question.

Phoebe: Very good question.

Tommy: I'll give you a head massage if you can answer it.

Phoebe: Well, the thing is, there's no right or wrong answer, right? I definitely think— look, I don't think there's instinct without confidence. And I think, you know, Josh, when you said earlier, how do you get your confidence? I mean, I've got experience. So, you know, my instinct is still rooted in, in an understanding of how things could work.

Josh: What about like the early days, like when you were sort of at that early stage, like you're at the assistant marketing level.

Phoebe: Yeah.

Josh: How do you then at that point, because I think that that can sometimes happen, is we start—

Tommy: just sorry, just quickly, Gemma's right outside my window.

Josh: Oh really? She's delivering. Gemma Watts is currently delivering 97 some skin products because he's had—

Phoebe: oh yeah, she's dropped off. Highly valuable.

Josh: Yeah, 97 He's got a new girlfriend and she lives in Perth, so he's been staying up until 4 AM. So he's been coming onto the show looking absolutely horrendous. But, and so—

Phoebe: Gonna give him a glow up.

Josh: Yeah, but in the comments actually, Sharna was asking about your skin. Oh, here we go, Gem K was.

Mason: Even when I'm not here, I'm still here.

Phoebe: That's impossible, no one could ever do that. Pretend that you're not, not here.

Mason: There really is no show without punch, is there? What if you dropped off, Kim, a beautifully branded gift?

Josh: Oh yeah, great.

Mason: Let's do a quick—

Phoebe: what is that?

Mason: There we go.

Phoebe: Do an unboxing.

Josh: Oh, this is beautiful.

Mason: This is my two favorite, um, eye masks. One is Aceology, one is Mecca Cosmetica.

Josh: Great.

Mason: We've got some La Roche-Posay Vitamin C eye cream.

Josh: Beautiful. Goes well with these. His sunscreen in the back.

Mason: He's got thermal water for when you, yeah, also goes with the sunscreen. This will just be nice and hydrating as a little spritz.

Josh: Do you shake it before you spray? Is it a spray?

Mason: I mean, you don't have to, but I do.

Josh: Okay, sure.

Mason: And then some roll-on sleep essential oils.

Josh: Oh, he needs a lot of that.

Mason: When he can't switch off after those late night phone calls.

Josh: Yeah, great.

Tommy: I've just been out the front with your family for the last 10 minutes.

Mason: Okay, bye everyone, see you at drinks.

Josh: Bye, Jen.

Mason: I'm going to First Choice now.

Josh: Okay, great, good luck. Oh, don't go too hard. Um, I know, uh, Shannon was asking about your skincare routine as well, baby. That she was saying you're glowing, so can you give us—

Phoebe: that's the little Collins Street light. I've got to say, I might, um, what's that, east-facing? Um, I, I use a lot of stuff from Sephora, and I am really, really big into— actually, Gem is as well— the Rose Quartz, um, roller and gua sha by Zoeve Beauty, which is really good at massaging the skin and making sure that all of your oils are really well absorbed. And it's really great for circulation and reducing inflammation, so I would get on that. Every night as a nice little routine. Highly recommend.

Josh: They stay nice and cold as well. I like how they are.

Phoebe: Yeah, put them in the fridge.

Josh: Oh, that's a good trick.

Tommy: My son loves it.

Phoebe: He loves it.

Tommy: He loves his rotting daddy. Yeah, it's very cute. Um, back to the intuition stuff. I think it's really fascinating, gut feel. And, and you were, you're right, JJ. It's like it is. And Phoebe, you're mentioning like, uh, it's all rooted in your belief system and your past experience and whether you've been you know, hard done by or not, or things have worked. It's, um, you ask me what I think I— I'm— what I kind of grapple with is the, uh, understanding that it might not be true. It's not a truth. Like, the feeling I have in my gut isn't necessarily true. It is a reaction. It's an emotion. It's triggered by something, and it might not even serve you as well.

Josh: Like, I guess some people, like, your intuition might be really great and serve you. But if you've come from a background that you're being told that you can't do it or to not trust certain things, or then you wish it might be off.

Phoebe: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I think that's particularly true with relationships as well. Like if you're— yeah, from like an emotional point of view. But I think from a business, a business sense, you know, there are— look, the blow is not a novel concept, right? Like Blow dry bars exist everywhere. And so it's not like I was coming at it being like, oh my God, I'm like completely changing the world with, you know, this brand new product. And so in a way, I knew that it existed elsewhere and I just knew that the way I was going to do it felt right for me. And I think a lot of people sit on ideas because they don't have that confidence. And obviously, like, there's, there's the money outlay, there's the risk. But like, I live my life by YOLO, right? Like, you just are never gonna know. I'd much rather live a fucked up, up and down emotional roller coaster of a life than just live one that just, you know, stays inside of the, you know, of the lines.

Tommy: Um, so the worst thing that's going to happen is you're about to say stay inside And then I was gonna say, we're all doing that at the moment. No, I love that because it's like, yeah, I mean, you can also, like the, it's so funny. I could think about the decisions Josh and I have made with our business, with starting something and things come up where you feel like, you know, logic, you know, what's right. Taking out a lease on Little Collins is outrageous. But you said it's like, it's funny what I've realised though is at the moment of doing them, it wasn't as crazy looking back on it now as what I think it should have been. 'Cause it's like, you're constantly levelling up.

Josh: And we're just spinning absolute bullshit as well, right? Like if you look at everything, the COVID-19 stuff, like if you listen to like a podcast we did 2 months ago, it was like, yeah, we wanna have a studio with 100 people in it, we want it like all of this stuff. It's just like, you listen to it now and you realise how actual, like we just don't know, right? Like we can—

Phoebe: It's so nice. It's like I could be so depressed and worried and uncertain at the moment about the blow, the fact, you know, I closed early because I just didn't think it was safe and I wanted to follow social distancing rules before the government kind of enforced everything. The worst thing for me in those, days, basically after the Grand Prix canceled, I was like, oh shit, like, this is, this is the real deal. Like, okay, it's not about money. It's if the Grand Prix are going to shut down, I mean, then everyone needs to start making decisions. But the worst thing for me was that uncertainty and being like, well, when are we going to have to close? And so that was why I was like, nah, that's it. We're closing on March 17th. It's the right thing to do. Yes, it cost me probably a week or two of sales, and yes, it put extra pressure on the team, but it was the right— you know, we talk about our community and we talk about everyone feeling safe and positive in our space, and I didn't think that we were able to, to operate in, you know, and stay true to our values by staying open, um, you know, for one more hour. It just wasn't right. And so I think that's where that instinct comes in. It's coming back to your values. It's coming back to how you actually— how it sits with you. Um, like it was, it was up here, like, you know, the, the Sunday, Monday, Tuesday night, it just didn't feel right. And so I had to listen to that.

Tommy: Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, and there's also the distinction between the feeling up here and then just being nervous and uncomfortable because you're in a hard situation. And, and yeah, I guess it is. It's like you've had, it sounds like you've had a heap of life experience living in different parts of the world, which allow you to become an expert in yourself. Like, what more have we got outside of understanding ourselves? And so, yeah. Do you do any mindfulness practices? How much do you look inwards on yourself?

Phoebe: I have to. And I think, um, how old are you guys?

Josh: I'm, uh, 24. I'm 14.

Phoebe: Yeah.

Josh: That's Mr. 97.

Mason: Cool.

Phoebe: 29.

Tommy: TJ's 31.

Josh: And Mason is, uh, 20, right?

Phoebe: So like when I turned 30, I lost my mind and I found it really, really difficult. And so I had to start— I'm 33 now— and I had to start really working on myself. So, you know, that was kinesiology, it was Reiki, it was journaling, it was yoga, it was, um, some form of mindfulness. I suck at meditation still, but And it was getting a much greater awareness of who I actually was. And it wasn't something that I spent any time on during my 20s. And I think that's why everyone always says, oh, your 30s are your best decade. Like, they're so amazing. You finally know who you are. And I definitely believe that to be the case. But I also had to put that work in. And, and I think that's where you're able to identify clearly what your values actually are, um, and what you're going to stand for and, um, the kind of person that you're going to be. Whereas in your 20s, you're still figuring it out, and that's fun.

Josh: Yeah. Do you think that you have to have that moment, like everything falling apart, to then rebuild? And how much of the stuff that you were experimenting with stayed? And, and are you continuing to find other things, or do you think you almost need to break down at 40 or, you know, have that moment again? I have breakdowns every year. It's a weekly practice, a Sunday night. It'll break down.

Phoebe: You know what it's like owning your own business, like, blimey. Um, but yeah, you definitely need a reset, I think, and you need bad things to happen to you, um, to be shaken a little bit, and, and that's okay. And you need to sit with that, and then you need to, you know, like, I have 3 words a year, so last last year my, my words were resilience, vulnerability, and courage. And then this year, hilariously, my words were fun— or are fun— creativity, and what was my other one? Oh, presence. Um, so I try and kind of really work on those, those things throughout the year, and that's a fun little exercise that I just keep on coming back to whenever I have moments of wobble.

Tommy: Yeah, I love that. I mean, the words, as you kind of hinted to, quite relevant for this year, quite relevant in terms of what you'd want to bring in these times that we're in, right? Some fun, being present, and the other one, courage? No.

Phoebe: Yeah, fun, creativity, and presence this year.

Tommy: Creativity, yeah. Yeah, everyone needs a bit more creativity at these times. I mean, you mentioned you're expanding into Sephora. What does the— what's the future hold for you at this moment?

Phoebe: Well, it's just so hard to know, right? Like, you know how we're like, you can't really make plans at the moment, but I'm actually really, you know, famous last words, but I'm confident that we'll be able to operate relatively soon. You know, hopefully at least by June. And the minute that I start to see consumer confidence back, because it's a different thing. I mean, you can open up and feel safe. Safe, but it's when people are willing to get back into the routines and head to their offices and go to events and feel okay with someone touching them. Um, I think that's, that's when I'll start to feel good about opening up the business in a, um, significant way or, or a more normal way. Um, and then we'll do Sephora after that. So I mean, Sephora is closed at the moment, as well. Um, so originally it was supposed to open end of March, early April. Um, so I don't know, June, July, August, September. What have you learned?

Josh: What have you learned about yourself in iso?

Phoebe: Um, well, growing up, we were never allowed to say that we're bored.

Tommy: We—

Phoebe: because only boring people get bored. So I try to— um, it's like, not even like it's not even— it's not like I can fill my days very, very well. Like, I've still got a lot of work to do. I love reading, love doing exercise, like, good, whatever. It's just the mundaneness of it that I've found really challenging. Like, there's nothing to look forward to really, is there? Apart from like chatting to you guys, which is hands down the highlight of my week. There's, there's nothing that's like really exciting you. And so I think it's just being able to I've found I'm still able to get joy from the things that have always given me joy, which is time to myself, which is socialising with friends on like Zoom and stuff, and staying really fit, which I have to do for my mental health anyway. So I haven't really learned anything new, just that I need to be patient and to not try and force anything because it's completely outside of my control. So it's just like the thing that I've been leaning into over this period has just been like complete surrender to the universe.

Tommy: Just on the boredom thing, I think your parents are bloody spot on. Um, Sam Harris, who I do his meditation every day. Yeah, um, have you heard him talk about boredom?

Phoebe: Yeah, he's brilliant.

Tommy: Put it in perspective. And it made me think about all those people in my life that I had one friend We don't really chat that much anymore, but she used to say, "Oh, always, I'm so bored. I'm so bored." And I just pulled up—

Josh: She was always with you at the time.

Tommy: No, it wasn't with me. Maybe it was a hint to hang out.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I didn't want to hang out with somebody who kept saying, "I'm bored." Holy shit. It was.

Josh: Missed opportunity.

Tommy: No, it wasn't. No. Sam says, "Boredom is often the one barrier between us and full immersion in the present moment." and it's for this reason that we ought to investigate it further when it arises. So it is like boredom, the thought is like an appearance in consciousness in our state, how we're feeling, but it's like it can be used as the trigger to then go, all right, well, am I avoiding sort of being alone with my thinking and all of that? So it's— I love that. Your parents hippies? Mine are. My mum's a yoga meditator. She would say she loved that.

Phoebe: My mum's a massive hippie and my dad's the complete opposite. It. So, um, I can't put it down to that. Um, you guys get so deep. I'm really into this chat.

Josh: Yeah, it's just like, I like the car vibes of the universe.

Phoebe: The—

Josh: on the present, like being present, how do you cheque yourself? Like, is there— do you— and when do you find that you're sort of lacking presence? Or why was that a word that you felt like you needed to, to include?

Phoebe: I I mean, well, pre-ISO, like, my life is scheduled to the hour, um, and I can easily get kind of worked up about, then I have to do this, then I have to do this, and it's always looking ahead and always thinking, okay, I need to remember to manage this situation or call this person, and I need to remember to say this or whatever. So I think, um, I needed, and I still need to do a better job of just focusing on where I'm at in that moment and how I'm feeling and just tapping back into that. Otherwise I can get kind of carried away and I'm a bit whirlwindy.

Josh: So do you catch yourself then? Is it actually like a—

Phoebe: oh, that's what I'm working on. That's what I'm working on. And I think I'm getting better at it. I think it's just even— that's why I have those words. It's even just to be Even by having them, it means that I have to be more aware of it. It's like, um, it's like how journaling— and journaling really helps with presence because I set up my day through journaling and I'm like, this is how I'm feeling. Even if I can do that for like half an hour, it puts me in a good, good mindset.

Tommy: Um, you said you said you're bad at meditation. What did that mean?

Phoebe: I just can't do it. I just can't do it. Can you do it?

Tommy: I mean, I can do a version of it, but yeah, there's—

Phoebe: I can sit for 10 minutes, but I can't— like, you know how people go and do meditation courses? It frustrates me that I can't do it because I feel like I should be able to, but, um, my mind just wanders so much and it's really difficult to— well, this is the presence thing again— it's difficult to be super present and have like a complete moment of, of clarity.

Josh: It's funny, isn't it, with the meditation stuff? I feel like I've got so much resistance to it. Like, I know I can do it. I physically can sit there for 10 minutes. Yeah, but it's almost like this thing of like, I just don't need the— I don't— even though that's not negative, it's like, I just don't need the negativity. I just don't need that bullshit. Like, I've had a big enough day.

Tommy: Let me just chill.

Phoebe: Chill out.

Mason: Fair enough.

Tommy: And what's interesting though, like— sorry, go, go, Phoebe.

Phoebe: Oh no, you go.

Tommy: Uh, no, you go.

Phoebe: I was just gonna make an annoying comment about like how people tell you it's like everyone needs to do a meditation. Like, loud and clear, I understand that. I agree with that. I believe in it. But there's— speaking of resistance, it's kind of like how people tell me to watch Game of Thrones. It's like, I don't want to fucking watch Game of Thrones. I know, I'm not gonna lie. Just leave me alone. Like, and it's almost like it's too cool and popular now. So I'm just like, no.

Josh: Have you seen Tiger King?

Tommy: Pushback queen.

Phoebe: Of course I've seen Tiger King, but I'm a feminist, so I was outraged by the misogyny and all of the memes, like, off the back of it. Like, obviously Carole Baskin is crazy, but I hate how we were all so focused on her and like Joe was just a whole other ballgame. Yeah, yeah, you know.

Josh: Yeah, no, I actually get that. You should get her in at the moment. That could be a good, like, um, fly her out. Could you imagine if you fly? That'd be amazing.

Tommy: Melbourne, come.

Phoebe: Ayoye, flower crown.

Tommy: Um, just before you— just before we kind of wrap up, I will say about the, um, meditation stuff, something I've learned this week is—

Josh: and Phoebe, did you grab both of these? Have we— this is the first time we've ever— I feel like the ability of being able to, when you want to wrap up. You, you— oh my God, why did I do that? I appreciate it.

Tommy: I felt that. I felt that.

Josh: One more question. I think I heard it go in the— please.

Phoebe: That was bad sound. I'm used to like pressing the—

Josh: yeah, no, you're all good.

Phoebe: Sorry, I'm present.

Josh: I'm present.

Tommy: The, the feeling of being distracted during the process of, of mindfulness is in itself something that you can focus on. So, you know, it's like you focus on your breathing, focus on the tickle at the end of your nose when you're breathing, or where your chest is rising, whatever. It could be like picking the point of, you know, acute focus, right? Something I learned today— this week— it was when you get distracted and then you get focused on, fuck, I'm being distracted from this meditation practise that distraction can then be a point of focus, just like the nose. And so because all of these things are appearances in consciousness, our feeling, the, the tickle on the nose, these are just like appearing, right? And so we're then just choosing to focus on those. So it is like, I, I know the pushback that it feels like when you're being pulled away by thought, and then you're like, fuck, I'm annoyed that I'm getting pulled away by thought, and And then you— But that is a thing in itself. That's like an object in consciousness to focus on. So, it's like, give it another stab. It's definitely, you know, it's definitely good. But— And also watch Game of Thrones.

Phoebe: Game of Thrones is what you say.

Tommy: No, no, no. I haven't watched it too long. Too much. Too much.

Phoebe: Yeah.

Josh: Are you watching anything? Like, what's on? What are you watching at the moment?

Phoebe: I'm obsessed with Homeland and have been for like way too long. So, there's like 2 episodes left.

Phoebe: Ever.

Phoebe: I'm going back and watching Mad Men again, which is just a great kind of filler. Um, and have you seen Mindhunter? That's excellent.

Phoebe: I haven't seen any of all those—

Josh: that— those three things I haven't seen. And that's the thing, it feels like there's so much to see now that I just—

Phoebe: You haven't seen Mad Men, Josh?

Josh: No, I haven't. No. Oh, it's good.

Phoebe: I, um, I don't want to get you thrown in deep.

Tommy: What's got too much— what's got more misogyny, uh, Mad Men or Or Joe Exotic.

Phoebe: I mean, Mad Men obviously has all the misogyny, but it's in the 1950s and '60s, so, you know, expected.

Tommy: And he's a hottie, the main guy. What's his name? Uh, what's his name?

Josh: Um, I thought you were talking about Don Draper. I was like, which one?

Phoebe: Uh, Meth Mouth. Yeah, really interesting.

Tommy: Meth Mouth.

Josh: Are you a reader? Do you read books?

Phoebe: Yeah, I'm a big reader. Yeah.

Josh: What are you reading?

Phoebe: Love, love, love books. I'm reading Phosphorescence by Julia Baird at the moment, which is really beautiful. It's about finding light in darkness. I'm reading Untamed by Glennon Doyle. I just heard her on a podcast, on Brené Brown's podcast, and I literally, I was listening to it when I was walking and I stopped and I cried. Quite emotional. Um, that's a— that was excellent. Have you listened to that Brené Brown podcast?

Josh: No, not yet, but our mate Peach said that's awesome.

Tommy: I listened to one of them.

Phoebe: Yeah, yeah, love that. And then I'm reading, um, I'm reading a book called The Mirror and the Light by Hilary Mantel, which is a novel, uh, historical novel. Her first two in the series won the Man Booker Prize. It's about, um, Thomas Cromwell and Henry VIII. Probably not for everyone, but I'm super into it.

Tommy: Yeah, I love it, love it.

Josh: Phoebe, how can people sort of support The Blow or sort of stay connected whilst everything that's happening?

Phoebe: Just join in all the fun and all the content that I'm spending hours creating on Instagram. We've got storeys every, um, every night from, um, women in our community who are sharing how they're helping, how they are conquering their day with confidence. So cheque us out at The Blow Australia, and also have a look at my other business, which is From the Memo, which is our baby e-commerce site, which is all about making that whole experience and a lot more effortless for expectant parents.

Josh: On the blow, very quickly, with like, if I— could you do it with my hair? Like, or is it going to be longer hair to do it?

Phoebe: We, we can totally do it. It just— I don't know if it's worth you paying $60 for it. Sure.

Tommy: Um, but what if we, what if we do 80% of the session a head massage? Yeah, we can make you feel really good.

Josh: Yeah, I don't know, I just feel like it could be nice to do it because it is, it's a, it adds volume, right? Is that what it does?

Phoebe: Yeah, yeah, we'll give you a zhush, we'll give you some volume, and I'll, I'll, um, I might have to set up a, a very short hair rate.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, great. Yeah, we should do the group when you're back open. We can do Work special and we can all go in. We could do a live show while getting our hair done. Massage only, just because of all the hair.

Phoebe: Okay. Yeah, we'll blow dry.

Josh: Awesome. Thanks so much, Phoebe, for coming on.

Phoebe: Thanks for having me.

Josh: Have you had any— you haven't had a parking fine yet? You're at a depot somewhere? They've just—

Tommy: you've been towed.

Phoebe: Oh my God, I can't believe my luck.

Josh: I did see someone with hi-vis and it is quite hard to be present when you're you are worried about getting fined.

Phoebe: But that was why I grabbed my cage. Oh yeah, okay. I can't afford it, like $140 fine.

Josh: I reckon you could talk your way out of it.

Tommy: I think you just definitely—

Phoebe: yeah, wouldn't be much.

Tommy: Don't park in a loading zone. Do not get out. It is so— they're more exp— they double the—

Josh: this is a loading zone.

Phoebe: This is a loading zone.

Tommy: That's what I'm saying. But don't get out of your car. Like, they're not going to find you in your car. They'll just tell you to move on. Yeah, yeah, don't do it.

Josh: Yeah, it's a Daily Talk Show. You can listen to us on all the podcast apps and you can watch us live as well, youtube.com/thedailytalkshow. Thanks, Phoebe, have a good one.

Phoebe: Thanks, guys.