Going Remote With Peter Shepherd

Josh: The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 638, and we got Pete Shepherd who's not in the building, but he's in a building, and that is his, uh, his, um, his map studio.

Peter: I mean, this is my map studio. It's actually my house.

Tommy: Yeah, you're in your house, but you have a map the size of, uh, our podcast desk behind you, which is kind of nice. How much you pay for that?

Peter: I had no idea. It was a gift. I got it as a gift for my 30th birthday, TJ. So, I'm pretty happy with it.

Josh: It looks great. And so, we've—

Peter: It's nice, isn't it, JJ? You've seen it.

Josh: Yeah, it's very nice. Yeah, it's great. It's— I don't know how accurate it is.

Peter: What do you mean? In what sense?

Josh: Well, it's got— It's Milligram brand, which Milligram is great, but they're a company known for their aesthetic. They're not really sort of a medical company.

Peter: Not known for their maths.

Josh: No.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: I wouldn't think so. And so, it's sort of like a high-class typo. And so, I think like it's beautiful and I think it does exactly what you want it to do, which is sort of signal that you're a traveller.

Tommy: Well, you're not a traveller because, I mean, who's a traveller at the moment?

Josh: Well, that's right.

Peter: This coronavirus. I'm not even allowed into the studio in Collingwood, apparently. I've been told to stay in Elwood, you said.

Josh: Well, this was the test. We thought like, okay, shit's happening, things are changing. We laughed at it at the start. All of a sudden client jobs are changing, events are shutting down.

Tommy: What else is there to do other than laugh at it? Otherwise you're just one of the others. But then what I'm finding, like one of the, one of the dummies that seem to be making a fuss out of nothing.

Josh: Well, it feels like there's an in-between, right?

Tommy: What's the in-between?

Josh: Well, I think the in-between, like ignoring it.

George: No, no, no.

Josh: So if you've got like, um, really worrying about it on one side of the spectrum and then you've got buying toilet paper in bulk on the other, There's probably just like—

Tommy: But there aren't either people really worrying about it. So, it's not the other side of the spectrum.

Josh: Oh, wait. No. So, you've got not caring.

Peter: No, no. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Same end. So, really worrying and toilet paper or laughing about it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And then there's probably something in between, which is like, ah, like it's sort of the toilet paper shit's funny, but the— But I still will wash my hands.

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, that is a good thing. If you've just started washing your hands now because of this, you should look at yourself.

Josh: I love that you say that, but you're speaking to yourself.

Peter: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: I'm looking at myself right now. Um, how are you feeling about it all, Pete? The coronavirus.

Peter: It's been a weird week. I was a bit like you guys. I was a bit dismissive of it, I think, in the past. And then this week in particular, I had a trip to Sydney get cancelled by a client, and I'm meant to be in New York for a month in April, but that's looking pretty dicey.

Tommy: Have you bought your flight anymore?

Peter: Not yet. No, I have flexible flights that I can buy at the last minute, but wow. Accommodation and all of that. So, logistically, I don't think I'm going to be going to New York in April. So, I'm just sort of like, what do I do with that month that I was planning on not being here?

Josh: Well, George, you're meant to go to Japan.

George: Yeah. Going to go to Japan in 3 weeks, but I probably can't.

Tommy: Probably can't?

Josh: You might still go?

George: No, I'm not going.

Peter: Okay.

Tommy: So, now that was confirmation. Probably can't? No, you aren't.

George: I booked my flights through Jetstar last year in October. And so, I was like talking to them, I was like, oh, can I change my flights? Because on their website it says change without a fee, for free. And she's like, yeah, but you've got to pay a fee. I was like, why? It's like, because you can only change for free if you book between the 10th of March and the 31st of March.

Josh: So, idiots who book now get rewarded and they can change for free. It's the dumb fee. That is annoying. Well, I guess what they're trying to do is promote. They want to give a safeguard for people to be like, hey mate, it's like, there's no, there's no risk. Yeah, I was seeing flights for, um, $700 return to LA, and I, and I said to Bree last weekend, I get very antsy when it comes to booking because Bree likes to really double-check with her work and do all this, like, where I'm like, no, you don't, like, don't give people options. You say like, this is when it is, this is when I'm going away.

Tommy: Like, how many jobs have you finished up based on travel planning?

Josh: Only one.

Peter: One's more.

Josh: It's true. But, and so, but the funny thing was I said to Bree, I was like, no, we're definitely going away.

Tommy: And, um, yeah, my mum's booked flights for LA in January, March, April, May, I think May or June.

Josh: And she's doing the whole, um, it's a yoga retreat. Like, it's not a great place, like a yoga retreat, I'd say up there in regards to getting—

Tommy: I mean, here's the thing, right? I was talking to Dodge It's more the fact, like, if you get sick in Japan, what are you doing? Who's paying for that? You're traveling, like, the hospital support over there. It's not— it's like, it's like thinking about Dyl who cut his finger here in the studio. If I did that while in LA with you gronks, like, you don't even think about those little things, let alone the shit like getting a serious, you know, a serious, you know, do something serious.

George: Obviously, if they change the travel ban rules and I'm stuck. Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: To be honest, I don't feel like I bought— I haven't bought into a bunch of this, but I am— I'm not worrying in terms of feeling panic because I'm like, I know that whatever happens, if our business shits itself based on this, we will be fine.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: We're pretty privileged to live in a place like Melbourne, you know. And so we'll be fine. I fucking move home with my parents. Sorry, guys. You know, but if that is in LA, you think we're— yeah, sorry, Mum, taking your room.

Josh: Oh no, she's been quarantined for 6 months.

Tommy: But I'm definitely—

Josh: Can I have what's in the fridge?

Tommy: I'm definitely concerned. I've never felt like this.

George: Oh really?

Josh: 97. We're trialling all different types of tech. I reckon with the new mics, you need to just bring your mic level a little bit down because I think because it's louder than 90, TJ's voice is hitting your noise gate.

Peter: Really?

Josh: So you can hear a little bit more room. It's a little bit roomier. But we're dialling everything in.

George: Just quickly, that map is $369.

Peter: Wow.

Josh: How do you know that? You just looked it up, didn't you?

Peter: Dodge, Dodge, Dodge.

Tommy: No, he looked up milligramme or whatever it is.

Josh: What's the size of it?

George: Well, 1.7 times 1.2 metre.

Peter: Yeah, that sounds about right.

Tommy: Yeah, you could probably get one cheap at Kiki K because they're going out of business.

Josh: Have you heard this? Yeah, yeah, they've just gone into— is it receivership? What's the difference between receivership and administration? Administration.

Tommy: Administrators come in to do something.

George: Look at that.

Josh: Maybe the receivership is the bit where like someone else has taken over. Do you know, Dodge?

George: No.

Tommy: Do you know, Pete Shepherd?

Peter: No, I have no idea.

Tommy: No, I mean, I'm glad that we're not savvy on this because none of us have been into receivership or administration.

Josh: I'm in one of those moods where when I say, like, I'm expecting everyone to think exactly the way that I think. So when I said to George, do you know, and he said no, he was just looking at me, had his computer there, he Googled how much the milligramme map cost, but it was too much to be like able to work out the difference.

Tommy: Yeah, whenever we ask you guys behind the desk, if you don't know, all I would do, I just say I don't know because I don't have my computer yet.

Josh: We, we don't think that when we ask you, George, it's not because we think you're the smartest guy in the room.

George: To be honest, I kind of zoned out. Honest, I like that.

Mason: Administration works to protect companies from their creditors, whereas receivership is initiated by the creditors or banks that believe the business can't pay off its debts.

Josh: So one is voluntary administration or whatever, and the other one is just like, hey, we've been trying to get this paid. And so the voluntary administration, I think that's what KKK has done where they're like, oh guys, we're fucked, we can't pay all this sort of stuff.

Tommy: Someone needs to come in and shuffle shit around.

Josh: Well, yeah, because like when you start a company, you sign that whole thing like every year. The accountant sends us an email being like that we have to sign where it's like, um, you're currently not insolvent. Like, you need to make sure that like as a director, uh, if you are operating a business that's insolvent, so it can't pay its bills, uh, you need like operating insolvent, like when you're insolvent is the bad bit as a director. If you say, hey guys, we're fucked, straight away as soon as you can't pay them, then you're a little bit more protected.

Tommy: Pete Shepherd, what do you— when something like this happens, where does your mind go? Are you thinking about the future? Are you thinking about—

Josh: this is for coronavirus, not KKK.

Tommy: No, but just like when something— I mean, this is new for all of us. We grew up hearing about SARS and all these other ones that they didn't affect us. Like, you think about being a kid, I didn't think about my dad and his business and the impact on that and me staying home from school. It's like only until I'm older. And I spoke to how daycare manager, the person that manages the daycare center, I said, if someone gets sick here, does the whole centre shut? Yeah. And then the logical thing is everyone's kid who's there, their parents should stay home and quarantine too. If they want to sort of stop this, that makes sense, right? And that's like, that is so much pressure on parents. And so it's when I think about my parents back in the day, I was like, fucking stay off.

Peter: Yes.

Tommy: It's like, no, it actually has impact. So what's the thought for you, Pete, and the 7 kids you've got?

Josh: Well, I mean, the 1, 2 different mums, so it's like, it's like that's easier to quarantine, I think.

Peter: No, I think the flow-on effects are interesting in a number of ways. Like, there's the, the logistical stuff, like you mentioned, TJ, around who's going to stay at home and look after the kids if and when they get sent home from school or daycare, or when people get sent home from university, which I suspect is probably going to happen at some point. But then it's like the flip side I've been thinking about a lot is the, in some ways, the benefits of forced working from home and forced people figuring out how to use Zoom and other technologies in order to keep business running but not have everyone in the same room. So I'm like curious that basically a bunch of stuff is about to change and is already changing.. And I think there'll be some good and some bad. And I'm curious how it might play out in the context of like big business, for example, who are always doing meetings, always in the same room, always going to the same central office. I'm like, does this change that now? Does this open the door to people realising that, you know, I've been working remotely for almost 3 years and like, I wonder if now that's going to become more common.

Josh: With the thing around travel, Do you like it? At what point would you be comfortable travelling versus not? Like, what's your filter at the moment?

Peter: My, my filter changed, I think, in the last 24 hours, in that at the start of the week I was like, oh, if they let me on a plane, I'll go to New York because I'm not necessarily going to a conference where there's people coming from all around the world. I'm just one guy who's coming from somewhere around the world.

Tommy: So you're the actual guy.

Peter: Yeah, but the, my understanding of most of those international conferences is you've got like 300 people coming from around the world. Yeah. And I'm one guy. But in the last 24 hours, I've started to think more about— and there's been quite a bit of panic and change in New York especially. They just shut down all Broadway shows and the NBA, and all of that's just shut down in the last 24 hours.

Tommy: Madison Square Garden, they've like shut their area.

Peter: Yeah, yeah. And so now I'm probably not going to go, and I think it's not out of fear of getting sick. It's probably more out of like the logistical nightmare of going over there is just too great now, and the probable like negligence now in catching up with clients or trying to catch up with people over there. It almost seems negligent now to be the guy that just flew over from Australia when basically no one's really travelling anymore.

Tommy: So, um, I saw Ryan John Our mate was on a plane this week. Fuck all people on the plane.

Josh: Yeah, so little people.

Peter: I got a message. You go. Sorry, I got a message from a mate this morning. He flew to Sydney to go to work at this, the cricket game, and he said the plane was a third full, and then he landed to discover that they're not letting crowds in, and so he doesn't even need to be there anyway.

Josh: He probably should have checked, but he did.

Mason: He got the all—

Peter: he got approval this morning to go, and in the hour and a half flight, it was like Actually, no, there's no crowds.

Josh: Well, I saw, so Missy Higgins, who in Australia is an iconic singer. Her dad is a doctor and was on the news because he had coronavirus, didn't know at the time, saw 70 patients. Missy has come out for the first time. Did you see this on Instagram? And she was basically, I can read the exact thing that she said.

Tommy: What did you just take from it, though?

Josh: Well, I took like, Because it got me thinking about people's perception of other people. So, say, Pete, if you were to go to New York, you're the traveller, you're the foreign person, you're the— I think in the eyes of the media, the person who could be the infector, right?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so—

Tommy: I mean, you think about last night, I think people— So, Amy is always like, been hypersensitive to how other people around her are feeling, and it could be based on something that she's done, but then sort of really, really feels the other person and how they might be seeing her and that kind of stuff. Like, I think a lot of people experience that, right? And so if you're the person that gets it at a— your child at a daycare centre that puts everyone, you know, like, I think that is a real feeling that a lot of people are going to experience of like I'm kind of like, fuck, if I get, I'm like, whatever. Yeah, but I think a lot of people be like, fuck, I've hurt so many people.

Josh: I've put so many people down. But then from a business perspective, like, then like how long? Just think about if it's all good, like us saying, ah, we don't mind or whatever, but then no clients want to see us. I mean, it puts it in perspective, like 97 fucking sneezing 8 times earlier in the week. Oh, no wonder I was upset.

Tommy: Last weekend I sneezed, my eyes were watering. I was sneezing shitloads. I felt a bit off.

Mason: Did you have a drink?

Tommy: No, no, no, no, I didn't. I had allergies. I read this like allergies, the flu, coronavirus symptoms, and dude, I didn't know I had allergies. I was fucked with allergies.

Josh: Just needed the Demazin.

Tommy: I probably did.

Josh: So this is what Missy Higgins says on Instagram. Hey everyone, w-o-a-h, wow or whoa?

George: Whoa. Whoa.

Peter: Whoa.

George: Whoa.

Peter: Whoa.

Josh: Hey, everyone. Crazy, crazy times. Given the amount of misinformation out there at the moment, I just want to let you all know that our little family is completely healthy and fine. We've been told none of us are at risk of having caught it, but we're laying low anyway just because people seem to be freaking out around us nonetheless. There is a lot of fear around. Feels a little like the world is going bonkers. And the media isn't helping with that. And she goes on. The media not helping with that. Yeah, I mean, what is the job of the media in a time like a pandemic? What do you think, Pete?

Peter: My first response is to report the facts. And I think the danger in the media at the moment just in general in society is that they're businesses, so they're trying to make money. So the fact that they can use storeys like this to make money is, to me, concerning because there's almost no duty of care on what they put out because what they're putting out is just seeking to create more demand for more news because they're a business. But it's probably too utopian to say that the media should be reporting the facts because the reality is they're all businesses, so they're all pushing different storeys and headlines and information.

Tommy: I mean, the reality is the information they're pushing is, whether it's right or wrong or hyperbolic or not, is— could be reducing spend that advertisers are putting into businesses like theirs. Like, you're just going to cut spending if you can't pay for anything or you can't pay your staff? It seems weird. It's like, if not—

Josh: yeah, well, it feels like that they— like, the media would be thriving in this time in regard— when bad shit happens, everyone, you know, turns on the telly or they read the news. Interestingly, on the business side of things, uh, a bunch of the newspapers where coronavirus has— where people have been affected or infected with it, uh, they're opening up the paywall for content related to coronavirus.

Tommy: You are New York Times? No.

Josh: Well, I already— I, I pay for New York Times. But so you're getting— well, I'm not hoping you get to see it.

Tommy: Absolutely not.

Josh: It's not everything.

Tommy: It's, it's there's literally a coronavirus section. Sure. So, they've said information around coronavirus is free of charge, not behind the paywall.

Josh: And so, I think Jeff Bezos, he owns Washington Post. And so, people have been tweeting him. It's funny.

Tommy: It's like, open it up, dog.

George: Yeah.

Josh: It seems like every single thing that happens in the world now, people's first response is to go to Jeff.

George: You know what I mean?

Peter: What's Jeff doing about the bushfires? Yeah. What's Jeff doing about the coronavirus?

Josh: Wake up, Jeff. What are you doing, mate? It's just like, it does feel pretty, um, yeah. And when he gave a million bucks to the, the bushfires, people were saying, man, only a million. It is, it is an interesting time when you think about, like, don't you think we'll look back at 2020 and be like, man, can you believe that we like lived through 2020? Like, how fucked would— like, you had the bushfires, like, yeah. Isn't it interesting how I haven't heard a single conversation of late about climate change.

Tommy: No, well, it's brushed over based on the fires stopping and this new thing happening.

Josh: And so I think that there's something interesting around that, which is like how perspective shifts and everyone's like, you're a chip off the old block, aren't you? No, but I think like it's the, um, you're referring to my dad.

Tommy: Yeah, he doesn't fall too far from the, uh, the tree, the sunburnt tree.

Josh: Um, no, but it's like all of a sudden uh, it seems less important about this thing.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: Um, but I think that the— if you look at it from a perspective of as a whole, it's all a bit negative. It's like, we're fucked. We said, like, whether it's— if it's not going to be the climate that fucks us, it's going to be, you know, some virus.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: What do you— what are you laughing at?

Tommy: Give us some words, words of wisdom.

Mason: That was me laughing.

George: Okay.

Mason: You know, the tech companies have actually done doing a pretty decent job in the spreading of information and stuff. Like YouTube has a little Australian government pop-up that'll give you like latest information from the government. And I think Google's manipulating a bunch of their search results to prioritise like World Health Organisation and all that sort of stuff.

Tommy: I've got a question for you, Pete. When you— say a time like this, it's very fresh, but how do you go about developing new business when your mind is thinking, like, it's almost like if you're—

Josh: leverage it.

Tommy: No, no, no.

Josh: If you're too, like, face masks, I think it's like a face mask that—

Tommy: sure, there's the how, what are the opportunities within this for businesses like ours that everybody could think about. But then there's being empathetic. If you are a— I mean, I'm a cold-hearted asshole, but if you're— I, for me, I even feel like I'm empathetic for the person I would be reaching out to. And it feels like if you say, hey, how would you like to, you know, engage in some business? Not that you say it like that.

Peter: That's maybe why you use your good accent.

Josh: That's why it's not my form. The sales script is fucking dialled in.

Tommy: Okay, let's put it on you. How do you land a new client in this time? Is it on your mind thinking, what's their position? How are they affected? Do they have money? Do they want to spend cash? Is my service to them required in this time? Will it— will they drop this?

Peter: Or, you know, Yeah, I, I tend to— I've thought about this even in the last couple of days. I've actually tended to back off and just be like, you know what, I got to respect the fact that there's a bunch of people struggling with a bunch of stuff around the world right now. So I've got proposals out there with certain people that usually I would just cheque in and go, hey, how you feeling about that? Do you want to have a chat? And I've just decided not to, just to give everyone—

Josh: Do you reckon that's part of the— is there a problem with that though, where it's like say people stopping marketing, stopping all that sort of thing is like, even if so, whether the coronavirus ends up being a really big thing or like it ends up sort of tapering off.

Tommy: 60% infection rate around the pop— for the population.

Josh: So are we going to potentially fuck ourselves just by changing our normal behavior?

Tommy: And then it's, oh, can you call out? Because I know it can be an excuse, right? Like if sales isn't your thing, but you need to follow up prospective clients and you're going, ah, you're hiding. I feel that inside and I'm— and it's a hiding mechanism. And so I don't— I can't under— I don't know how to read this feeling I'm having.

Peter: Like, yeah, I totally agree with that because I usually hate— I usually don't like the sales and the reaching out. It's like my least favourite part.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. But I think working from home too, like, I— like, for me, I'm just like— because I said to you, I'm like, hey, like, maybe we should do this. Maybe we should just like all start working remote for a bit and just—

Tommy: and I think we're gonna work out a few other things before that bit.

Josh: But I did say also, just quickly, I saw a tweet that said, what's the chance that you ate all of your snacks on the first day of quarantine?

Tommy: Rations on a boat, you fucked it.

Josh: Yeah, I reckon that would— I could imagine that happening in a big way.

Tommy: Yeah, especially when you don't like tuna and most things that are in a can.

Josh: I actually don't. I like tuna if it's, um, in pasta. No, I like it. The interesting— I've, I've talked about on the show one of the first times I ever ate tuna And I said to the— it was a catering thing. I said, man, this is the best chicken sandwich I've ever had. Like, what's the dressing? And they said, well, that's tuna. And they like, they put it in this mayonnaisey thing. I think it had dill.

Peter: Oh, yeah.

Tommy: Chop up some dill, bit of mayo, mix it together.

Josh: My problem, I think, is it's something Pete Sheppard would do. I can't connect. I find that like putting it into the sandwich, it's almost the equivalent of me of like slaughtering a cow and then eating the beef. Like, it's too— I'm using it too much in its raw material.

Tommy: Thinking too hard.

Josh: Imagine, like, what about, like, vegans that are, like, only eating fresh produce? They need Delishu. Imagine if they had plants.

Tommy: No, no, I'm talking about people that don't like the— they want box, a box of veggies. Like, that's, that's their go-to.

Josh: Yeah, they're whole food, they're in trouble.

George: Far out.

Josh: Unless you're on a farm.

George: Yeah.

Tommy: Anyway, I want some positiveness in your life, Pete.

Josh: Yeah. What are you happy about? Keeping in mind it's pretty insensitive to say anything happy right now.

Peter: Yeah. So, based on that, nothing. Business is going well.

George: Yeah.

Tommy: No, I think I'm not feeling horribly about it. But worried about it is a weird thing because it's like if it was just you and no one else experiencing this, maybe you'd feel that like, oh my God. But I think everybody is. So that's where I take a bit of solace in like, no, we're all in this position, so we got to fucking work through it.

Josh: I'm vibing it. I just vibe that we're all together. We're all like experiencing that. Like, it's actually like a bit of a community thing.

Tommy: It's real doomsday seeing President Trump, you know, from the White House or wherever it is. That's like, looks like a set, right?

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: And he's doing his address to the world. It's like, it's what you see in films.

George: Well, ScoMo's address was the first address to the nation since the GFC.

Peter: Yeah. Oh, really?

Tommy: Since 2008.

George: Yeah.

Josh: And so what's it? So, an address to the nation is different than just streaming on Facebook. Yeah.

George: It's just like when all channels are on you for this time.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: Oh, so they are all radio.

Tommy: Wow. That's—

Josh: We should have had ScoMo. We could have put him on the Daily Talk Show. We could have been one of those channels.

George: Yeah.

Peter: It's like as a purely intellectual exercise, it's pretty fascinating, like just observing and witnessing on a global scale the things that are happening intellectually. But then, like emotionally, it's fairly traumatic for obviously thousands and thousands of people.

Tommy: George, can you pull up like a Spanish Times or, you know, the equivalent of a New York Times in Spain. Mason, you pull up one in like Russia. I wonder if you can access it. I'll go, I'll go, um, California. California. Yeah, California. Now Italy is a fucked— they're fucked. So I want to find— but I'm just trying to go like the snapshot at a, you know, the George trying to pick a holiday destination at the moment. It would be good like the Californian Times. Like, so if you just go to any of these websites, how, how obnoxious are they being?

Josh: In regards to reporting. Keep in mind this is a pre-record, so this is, um, we're recording this on Friday. So if by Sunday someone big has died, we're not covering it due to—

George: yeah, coronavirus lockdown, first 4 towns quarantined.

Josh: Did you say Columbaris? Coronavirus. Okay, they're still on. It's not well for George.

Tommy: Yeah, so LA Times, like, you just jump on, like, the whole page is filled.

Mason: Same with Russia.

Tommy: Same. Yeah, so this is the world And this is why it's spreading so hard, as in the media, the news and people's fear and the thought, just attention to it. Think about if you had access to see vibrations of thoughts relating to this and this whole saga. Imagine what that would look like on some kind of like heat map.

Josh: So, I'm just looking at the Jakarta Post. I thought that would be interesting because I went down this rabbit hole, or should I say a bat hole, last week around like bats in general. I was trying to understand, like, I was just getting a bit sick about bats.

Tommy: Bats are fucking disgusting.

George: Yeah.

Josh: And so I was looking at, do you know why? I don't know that much info, but the little bits I took from it.

Tommy: Did you know they're blind?

George: No.

Josh: I do that. Yeah, they are.

Tommy: They use sonar.

Mason: So, there's a bloke who trained himself to use sonar.

Josh: Yeah, it's crazy.

Tommy: And he bushwalks in the nighttime, bushwalks in the nighttime, climbs trees in the bush.

Mason: There's videos of him mountain biking.

Tommy: Oh, that's right. It's called, um, Superman. I think it's Superman. They did a, like, a one of those— not NPR, the one of those beautiful podcast storeys where it's just like—

Josh: anyway, well, the, um, the interesting thing I found out about bats is one of the reasons why they're so good at holding on to these diseases or like viruses that spread for— to humans is because when they're flying, their body temperature is around 40 degrees. And so, the viruses that can hold— I feel like 97's looking at me like, mate, you're way out of school talking about science.

Tommy: No, this is good. Keep going.

Peter: So, Mitch.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: So, 40 degrees.

Josh: Yeah, 40 degrees. And so, because— So, the viruses that are within the bats end up being very sort of immune to things like temperature because the human body is like, what, 38°C?

Tommy: It's like an incubator.

Josh: Yeah, it's like—

Tommy: They're loving it in the bat.

Josh: It works really well. And the other thing, too, is bats congregate. So, bats all fly together, they fuck around. It's like the MCG, right? It's like the Grand Prix. Not now. Not this year. And so, yeah, I thought that that was interesting. And so then I ended up— So, I went from watching the most disgusting— So, this is an interesting thing. This is getting controversial. This is getting into Richard Jansen land.

Tommy: Is it?

Josh: Right. So, when people talk about, they connect racism with the coronavirus, right?

Tommy: Xenophobia.

Josh: Yeah, xenophobia, all that sort of thing. One of the things I was thinking is like, okay, I was watching these videos of the wet markets. Yeah. Right. And then I just started watching videos on what the wet markets in China are.

George: Oh.

Josh: Do you know what they are, George?

George: They did a 60 Minutes on last Sunday. Crazy. Like all these, those turtles in there, raccoons. Bats, cats, dogs.

Tommy: And they sell them for food.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: And so, the reason why it's a wet market is because the fucking blood, pus, all of that stuff is like— So, what happens is it's like chickens are fucking shitting on just turtles and then turtles are cumming on bats. Like, it's fucking just— It's all just—

Tommy: If we know something, turtles fuck.

George: Yeah.

Josh: And so, that's the thing. It's just like— like you just have pus, blood, cum, just fucking everything everywhere in this wet market.

Tommy: Anything wet, they'll take it.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so, wet willy, they love them.

Josh: And so, the thing is that like it all came about, everyone should like, the reason I'm bringing this up is so that people can then go and find out their own information. Don't use me as the source. But the things that I took out of it was basically China had a food problem.. And so, when they had the food problem, residents started to have to work out ways of making money. And so, they took animals that were typically wild and were starting to farm them. And so, that's why they have all these fucked up animals that are in these markets. Interestingly, also, they like— It's a high— It's an upper-class thing to do, like eating these big wild animals. Is seen as like a status symbol. And so, what I find interesting is in regards to all of this and when race becomes a part of it, if this is the practise that is causing, that created this virus, then things like, okay, region and where someone's come from and where they've spent their time should play a factor, I would think. And so, 100%. And so, I think that there is like a little bit of rationality. Like, I sort of understand that the Chinatown stuff that happened, I can understand the context of what people are thinking, which is like, you've got chefs, you've got people who are amongst people who have come from this region. And so, this isn't about racism or xenophobia. We're at a point of just like, 'How do we fucking stop?' Like, yeah, you see how it did start there.

Tommy: You see people clearing out of Chinatown, the very early stages. Like, 2 weeks ago, the conversation— we were filming at a hospital— the conversation was nothing like it would be today at that same hospital.

Josh: And that hospital was like extremely multicultural. They're having people from all around.

Tommy: And so it shifts in 2 weeks. And so, yeah, I mean, the only time I heard this week of it being sort of race-related was when President Trump said something around it's like their disease. Like he referred to it being China's problem or like that's where it came from. So, it is their problem, but it's just framing that he's trying to, you know, put them up as a superior nation.

Josh: But they also, I think that it'll be interesting. I mean, this is the most sort of political and sort of all this sort of stuff that we've ever gotten. But I think there is definitely like it really shows where the Trump stuff is lacking in a massive way, where it's like when you're talking about— when it's media relations and all that sort of stuff, you can sort of bullshit and do all this sort of stuff. When it's just a virus, you can't actually just say it's fake news. Like, it just keeps— like, it just spreads. And so, him being like— there was an article where he was— where I think it was the Argentinian, or I think it was somewhere in South America, one of the diplomats ended up having coronavirus. Can you have a look at that? '97. But, um, there's a photo of President Trump next to the guy like 3 or 4 days ago.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: And the quote was something along the lines of like, I'm not concerned because there was nothing un— sort of unusual about our interaction. I'm like, does he think you have to fuck to get this thing? Like, if you shook his— if you shook his hand, yeah, then it's a potential.

Mason: So Brazilian official.

Josh: Yeah, Brazilian official. And what did he say? Can you read the exact quotes from Trump? Because I thought they were pretty outrageous.

Tommy: I mean, Pete, I asked you earlier off the show where you get your news and you said you don't get it. I mean, this is— Josh obviously gets his news from, you know, a bunch of these places because I've seen all these. And so a lot of the news are— have you— are you seeing any of this? Is it coming into your filter? Do you know about turtles rooting?

Josh: The turtle fucking thing was me sort of being hyperbolic potentially. I don't know if there's I just assume that it's all liquids.

Peter: Yeah, I'd say I don't— I try not to digest news as a like general rule for Pete. And I think in times like this, you can't help but hear through other people like friends and conversations like this what's happening, what people are saying. So thanks for ruining my day. No, but I think in times like this, it's the gov— like, you've got to go to the World Health Organization, you've got to go to the experts. That aren't trying to push information as a way to put themselves in, you know, a status place or push business, push media because it makes them money. They're just trying to put out like information and facts. So, I've looked at government websites and, you know, the World Health Organisation website. That's generally where I look at my information.

Josh: Do we think that the government's too slow, though?

Tommy: Very slow.

Josh: So, if we look at the media stuff, we actually saw, like, so, uh, we were listening to the radio in the car a couple of days ago and they were doing these like, um, ads where the government's working on all these like precautions, blah blah blah. And Bree said, it's like, man, they're doing a lot, aren't they? I was like, well, it's been fucking like 50-something days, uh, and this isn't them actually doing all these things, this is them communicating. This is, this is the equivalent of What is it? Scotty from marketing or whatever, like putting out an ad around this is what's happening. And so, yeah, I think that if we look at when we actually started talking about it and even within the hospitals and us like communicating and talking about all of these things, then you see people wearing face masks and like in Australian culture, we just don't. Could be the worst air quality or whatever, and we're still not doing it. It feels like, Pete, if you're relying on the, the government stuff, I don't know, like maybe that makes it— maybe we only need to know about this stuff now. Like maybe if everyone just did the government stuff, then, uh, things like the economy would be in a better position. But then that's like that siloed thing of not considering that everyone's going to news.com.au and making big business decisions that are people like your clients or your clients' clients that, you know, that they're consuming that content.

Tommy: What's the site, Pete, that you go to?

Peter: I can't remember off the top of my head.

Josh: It's a little cute Google. What were some of the— did you find some of the quotes that Trump—

Mason: yeah, so he said, um, we did nothing unusual, um, he's doing a terrific job in Brazil, we'll find out what happens, I guess they're being tested now, let's put it this way, I'm not concerned.

Josh: Yeah, say like, yeah. Yeah, it just seems—

Mason: I mean, he accidentally— he said that trade would be affected between Europe and the US and that they wouldn't be importing and exporting. And then like half an hour later, he got on Twitter and said, no, no, it's actually— it's just, um, like immigration or travel that's being banned and not— oh, sure, not all the imports and exports.

Tommy: Can you actually look up, Sev or Dodge, who, uh, what stocks have shot up over the last few weeks?

Peter: Like Zoom.

Josh: Yeah, Zoom.

Tommy: Zoom have, yeah.

Peter: Through the roof, yeah.

Tommy: What about Tesla? Has that gone up in the last couple of weeks? I mean, that's not really, I mean—

Josh: Well, I think that could have been related to the oil stuff and a bunch of other things. But if you're looking at like the S&P 500 index, like that's—

Tommy: Why not? What's going on?

Josh: Well, we recorded this, this is Friday and it was the, what did they say, Seb? It was the worst day since 1987 or something.

Mason: I think that's what you said, yeah.

Josh: Yeah. Can you look it up just so I'm not talking shit? Um, yeah, you can see, you can see the drop. The funny thing about all of this shit, just like when the MH-15 or MH-350, whatever it was, the fucking planes that went out of there. Thank you.

Mason: Um, 1987.

Josh: 1987.

Tommy: Wow.

Josh: Yeah, like we all become fucking experts in whatever it is. Like all of a sudden we're experts on infectious disease. I, to be honest, like we're just, we're just regurgitating the shit that we've read or listened to, which contributes to the problem.

Peter: Not to, not to just dismiss the whole podcast that we just recorded, but essentially, we're essentially, we are committing to potentially perpetuating the problem. So I think, like, I, I get uncomfortable and anxious in moments like this, not on this call, but like in moments like this on the globe, because it divides people and makes more fear, more hate, more division, which is just not helpful in any context. Like the more divisive we get about we should have acted sooner, we shouldn't have acted sooner, we're doing all we can, we're not doing enough. None of that helps. Yeah, it's just we've got to accept where we are, look at what the information is based on actual facts, and then decide to work together, to collaborate together, to co-create a new version of the future through empathy, generosity, compassion. Because fear-mongering and hate and division, it's just like, it just gets me annoyed and frustrated because none of it helps. None of it helps.

Josh: That sounded a lot like, you know, Jerry Springer would do his sort of at the end of his show. It'd be like, look after each other.

Tommy: And so it's true. Yeah, I agree. And then what about if you, like, I've said to myself, how do I like turn off from that? So if you, the opposite is like just turning off and nah, I'm not going to engage, which is a friend of mine has said that. I think it's almost next to impossible at the moment to disengage.

Josh: What does it mean to listen? What does it mean? Like, so taking that approach around the empathy and stuff, Pete, not, not engaging in that type of stuff, or purposefully deciding to avoid certain bits of how society is feeling, how much do you think that is the, the pro— it being problematic in regards to not listening to what the world is saying.

Peter: No, I think it's a good call out. I think we have to listen, I think, but we have to listen in that we have to observe and be curious. So, it's like observe what's happening, get curious about why that might be happening or why that person might be telling you that storey as opposed to this story. But not to just like be so swept away by the storeys that people are telling that we forget to observe and be curious. I mean, it's a bit like the, it's a bit like the The show that was on Netflix, I'm not going to call it a documentary, the show that was about going vegan, and all of a sudden a bunch of people change their behaviour because of one show without like pausing.

Josh: Sorry, that's all right.

Peter: Without like, like, I love Black Panther. Here's some information, let me pause, let me be curious, let me observe. And then like, to your point, let me empathise with where they might be coming from, what they might be doing, and develop my own opinion on it. Rather than just like consume and just get swept away in that.

Tommy: I mean, they could be saying like, people, people in the hysteria, like, say if it gets so fucking bad and we were looking at the, the boy that cried wolf, the people that are getting the toilet paper, it's like, at what point do we go, there was the fucking wolf?

Josh: Yeah, well, but also like, this is that, uh, meta-modernism stuff that Dr. Jason Fox talks about around like, we can— can't we sort of play in this way of entering into some of this hysteria to serve and to learn and to understand? So, um, uh, say with the vegan example, Pete, is it's like to be curious requires you to be able to have your own unique experience. And so if you have all of this information, it feels potentially like the best thing to do is it's like, what happens if I do it? Like, it's hard because it's framed in, in what could be described as propaganda or a highly sort of, um, filtered look at something. But it feels like we're constantly in different versions of realities. And so that is entering— it seems so extreme because it is not the everyday reality that what we live in. But when we go out and we add cheese to everything and we do all these sorts of things, we don't necessarily see that as propaganda. We see that as just our culture and everyday living. So, it feels like potentially, and that's the same thing around the bat stuff, right? Like, I look at the— When I was looking at the bat stuff, I was like, fuck, look, like you're seeing them with their mouths open and they're cutting off, cutting them up and stuff. I was like, you know what? I'd probably have the same response if I was watching a cow be fucking slaughtered and all that sort of thing. It's just because, like, but because I eat beef and because I've had this experience, I don't feel that way. So I guess part of it is, it's like, within co-creation, how much of co-creation requires you to actually enter and be like, actually act within that space?

Tommy: What are some coaching questions?

Josh: Okay, did I freeze?

Tommy: Oh my God, the bad dad. Um, have we— what are some questions? Like, because it's— so the people that aren't being observant on how they're reacting, so they're purely in it, right? Oh my God, this, that. But they're not ever going, do you think it's actually that? Like, uh, is this right to feel this way? Like, it is productive in any circumstance to observe what, you know, be the observer of the observer. And so, that's, I guess—

Josh: What's the toilet paper thing? Is it like, I guess you got to make the call. I'm like, you know what, if I had to fucking— If you have to rinse with water, like, if you actually make that— Well, like, it's very fucking easy. Like, there's a lot of places around the world that does that. And so, I mean, that I feel like is an example of are you listening to the internal reality around this stuff? Like, I find it interesting around like doomsday stuff. They talk about, you know, having water and doing all that sort of thing. And I find that interesting.

Tommy: But, yeah, we've got 6 rolls left. How's your house? What's your count?

Peter: Well, this is the awkward part is I'm now getting to the point where I actually genuinely need some toilet paper. But I've still got like—

Josh: That's what everyone's saying.

Peter: Ridiculous. So I think I've got 4 or 5 left.

Josh: I'm just gonna have to start. I mean, it's interesting.

Tommy: I feel like I've definitely— How many days? How many days? Can we work that out? How long Pete's got?

Peter: What do you think? Is that— It lasts a while.

Josh: 2-ply. What is it?

Peter: 3-ply.

Tommy: Yeah, I reckon, I reckon there's 2-ply.

Josh: So there's 1-ply, 2-ply, 3-ply.

Mason: I reckon there's 3-ply minimum.

Tommy: Safely 20 to 30 poos per roll.

Josh: Say it again.

Mason: Did you say 30 poos per roll?

Josh: Nah, you're—

Tommy: Per roll?

Josh: Too little? Too much. I think that's probably too many. Yeah, 20.

Mason: So 20, I think you think it would last like, I think it's almost a month.

Josh: I think it's like 8 shits a roll. I'm not joking. Yeah, I think—

Tommy: oh no, you're diet, bro.

Josh: No, no, no, I think that like Bree and I would change the roll every 2 days.

Mason: 2 days?

Josh: Yeah, 2 to 3 days.

George: 4 shits a day.

Josh: I'm only doing 1, so I'm clearly using— either Bree's just lost it or I use more than I think. No, I have a feeling that it's around— yeah, maybe 12.

George: 12 poos?

Mason: Yeah, 12 shits.

Tommy: So then we've got 12.

Josh: Is there any sort of guide online, an infographic? That should be an infographic. This should be sort of like— we could get— we could definitely get Rory on the case with that, uh, Rain Man Rory, our, uh, data analyst. Uh, all right, well, I think, uh, thanks, Pete. You've got to go to your next meeting. It's been good though, the Zoom call. So, um, how do you feel about it?

Tommy: Oh, it could be the future for us, Pete. It could be the future for a lot of people. It's the future. You're living in the future.

Josh: But it's like, it hasn't been— the internet connection has been solid.

Tommy: Yeah, it's solid.

Josh: It is like, you look crisp. There's no delay.

Peter: You're sceptical too. You're like, are you sure you should do this from your house? You don't want to go to the commons?

Josh: Well, I was just worried about you because you don't plug into Ethernet, do you?

Peter: No, no, I'm running Wi-Fi, but I've got a podcast with someone in New York and we— this is how we run it. So, I think it's worked all right.

Josh: It's worked fine.

Tommy: Pete, thanks for coming on the show, buddy.

Josh: George, anything else you want to ask? Anything you want to end on, George?

George: No, not really. I was talking to my dad last night because I wasn't— I've been a bit naive about the whole thing, but he's starting to freak me out a bit. It's more about just what's going to happen in the next 2 weeks.

Josh: What is happening? What do you know?

George: We just don't know.

Josh: But that's the scary bit.

George: We could be in lockdown in 2 weeks.

Josh: Just for something a little bit less of an issue, but something that was an issue that, Pete, I feel like you would have an opinion on. I didn't get to bring it up, uh, yesterday. I went to the— my coffee shop, uh, what's it called? Pavlov's Duck. I mean, I'm fine saying it because I'm not going there anymore.

Tommy: Yeah, okay.

Josh: So, Pavlov's Duck, across the road from my house, right? I asked for a large strong almond mocha. What do you— what would you pay for a large strong almond mocha on a weekday?

Peter: You could pay $6.

George: $5.50.

Josh: He said, uh, $7. Oh, and I said, sorry, what? Because I'm used to like— because I've never ordered a large strong almond mocha on a weekday. It's on the weekend. And when it's on the weekend, I'm normally like adding a little almond croissant and Breeze coffee. Not something sort of goes in. Yeah, yeah, we've got it real dark.

George: Yeah.

Josh: And so When I found out it was $7, I was like, oh, that's a mistake. And so I said, because normally it's like $6, and I was like, oh, what's the— no, I think that's wrong. I said, like, what am I paying for? He said, oh, the chocolate. And I was just like, I said, that's ridiculous. And the thing was that Bree had always been trolling me for spending $6 because across the road at the place, I think it's called The Office, café, they already— they're cheaper anyway. And so I've started going there, but it was, it was a big moment because think about it, I've been going there every morning for nearly a year, and to just to have the guy that goes in every single day for a year being like, that's ridiculous, I'm walking out.

Peter: They're pretty bold order too. You got the double strength coffee with a lot of almond milk. Yeah, a little cheeky bit of chocolate as well.

Josh: Well, Goldie Guts, um, uh, who's, uh, a Gronkh, she, uh, she does like, uh, all this stuff around body and movement and all that sort of thing. And what she was saying is that with caffeine, there's a bunch of research to say that having a little bit of sugar with the caffeine can help from a metabolism point of view. And so I've never added coffee.

Peter: Really bought into that.

Tommy: So I was looking for an excuse for many years, and now I drink hot chocolates with a drop of coffee.

Josh: No, and so when I say metabolism, I don't mean like, um, losing weight. I mean like caffeine, like the way that we absorb the caffeine. And so because of that, I was like, oh look, I'm not ready to add sugar, like that's outrageous. But adding a little bit of chocolate, there's probably a bit of sugar in there. So that was—

Peter: that's going to happen on our walks now. You're going to get that order when we walk.

Tommy: He might as well get a thick shake.

Josh: I think it's cheaper to get a thick shake.

Tommy: Definitely cheaper.

Josh: But Pete's, he's been great. We actually just switched from almond flat whites to, he's happy to go with the latte. So when we go for our walks, so we can have the same.

Tommy: You know what? I'm so glad I know that now. You know, just really glad.

Mason: Just before we wrap up, we got an email from Ian. Gronks, I just wanted to say great work on the eps with Nikki and Tom Harkin. These conversations were fantastic. Please tell Tall Gronkh that he did an awesome job at the YouProject conference.

George: Oh, there you go.

Josh: That's nice.

Peter: Thanks, Ian.

Tommy: There you go, Tall Gronkh.

Peter: What a legend. That's lovely. I think I saw him there wearing his hoodie. I sent you guys a photo.

Tommy: Yeah, I didn't get it.

Josh: Yeah, I got it. I was like, yeah, that's Ian.

Peter: I just sort of sent this from the other side of the room. I spotted someone wearing the Daily Talk Show hoodie.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they infiltrate. Gronkhs infiltrate everyone's conferences.

Josh: Uh, thedailytalkshow.com/gronkhs. Uh, we're not giving out stickers, but interestingly, like, not getting stickers is probably a good thing because Mason licks the stamps, uh, when he sends them out. With everything, with everything that's been happening, um, that's not ideal.

Tommy: Yeah, licking stamps.

Mason: No, yeah, well, not my problem.

Tommy: All right, see you tomorrow, guys.

George: Bye.

Peter: See you guys.