Porn, Sex & Squeegees With Dr. Nikki Goldstein

Josh: The Daily Talk Show. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 613.

Tommy: In the studio, Dr. Nikki Goldstein. I like the claps. Yeah, we clap you in.

Nikki: Thank you, I like that.

Josh: It's a good vibe.

Nikki: I haven't even done anything yet and you're already clapping me.

Tommy: Well, you're our first sexologist on the show.

Nikki: Oh good, and only? Is this a monogamous relationship?

Tommy: Well, we can cease relationships with any other sexologists if you are our in-house sexologist.

Nikki: I'll be your in-house.

Tommy: We're looking for that this year in the house.

Josh: Okay. You have to be on the books. It's paying super as well. Are you with Host Plus?

Nikki: What's the pay like?

Josh: Ask George.

Tommy: What would we have to pay you to be in it? I mean, we'd really have to. I mean, do we have, do people have problems that go to sexologists? Is that like, do we all need problems?

Nikki: Generally, I think you go to a sexologist. So, okay, sexology is the umbrella term, right? So underneath that, then there's different roles. So you can be a sex educator, you can be a sex therapist. I kind of take the role of sex educator, so I actually don't like clients. Can be really annoying being in a private practise where people just come and dump their crap on you.

Josh: You're the Dr. Phil or the Dr. Oz of the sex industry in that way.

Nikki: Yeah, I like that analogy. I like that analogy. I get my hands dirty, so to speak, and I do the research and I go out there speaking about sex when no one else wants to. So you don't have to come to me, I'll come to you.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, it is the ultimate what people are thinking but not really talking about.

Nikki: Yeah, I get to say it.

Tommy: Follow someone, I mean, he's passed now. His name's Ram Dass. He's a spiritual guru. Um, and you sound like you followed him on Instagram, but you mean— Oh no, I just went down this rabbit hole. He passed away last year and I just got heavily into him over the Christmas break and listened to 15 hours straight of him. He's amazing. But one of the things is like unconditional love. And he met this guru who was like, unless you can tell me your deepest, darkest secrets, we can't be working together. And he took that on and taught that teaching, which is like, you need to be able to talk about your stuff. And that happens in group facilitated sessions where they're exploring, you know, the, um, uh, you know, that spiritual path. And one of the things he said was the main thing that people are keeping is sexual thoughts or sexual things going on in their head that they're not talking about. And so it's quite like— and I laughed at that moment because it's like, you know It is so true. There's shit in my head that has never made it out until, you know, verbalized.

Josh: So we can set up a podcast.

Nikki: This is your time.

Tommy: But yeah, so it does, it plays on people's mind, I think.

Nikki: Well, you know, it's amazing being a sexologist and people like to confess things to me and they feel comfortable and safe and I'm very honoured and privileged that I get to be in that position in people's lives. But it's amazing the stuff that I get told and I think if only you could tell that to your partner, or if only you could live your life more honestly. But the problem is that we all have this issue of conformity. You know, we all want to conform into societal norms and standards, and especially when we're in a relationship, you know, often we have gotten into that relationship sexually, things are new and exciting. It's like the fancy new toy that we just can't get enough of. Then we start to cement our life together and we might have kids, we might get married, we're, you know, living together, dealing with the everyday stresses, and we're not exploring our sexuality enough. And we tend to push all that stuff kind of back in our head and in our stomach and go, "No, I don't think my partner's going to be into it," or, "That's not really what you're supposed to do in a relationship." And then we go on for years and years not talking about sex and our desires and our fantasies, and also being confused about them ourselves. We often don't know how to digest them and work out what we want and what's the difference between just something we saw in porn and something that we actually really want to try. So then we get people that, you know, are not connecting sexually and not enjoying sex. And it's kind of to me a no-brainer as to why, you know, like people scratch their head and goes, why are we all struggling? And why do we almost spice things up? Because one of the biggest problems is that we don't communicate about sex. So how do you know how to pleasure your partner if your partner isn't talking to you about that? And maybe they don't even know themselves in the first place.

Josh: Why is there such a high representation of stepmums on the homepage of Pornhub?

Nikki: It's not just stepmums. I mean, you know, one of the most fascinating and honest representation of human sexuality is porn. Because when you have a look at all these crazy things that come out— like, I got sent this, um, this clip. There's a company called Pure Taboo. So if you really want to have a look at the extreme stuff, they do those really taboo topics. So we're talking about incest and all that kind of stuff, and it's done quite creatively. But, you know, the reality of it is, is that You can measure these days what something is being clicked on, how many times people are viewing it. That's what I love Pornhub's, um, Pornhub year in review, the statistics they come out with.

Tommy: We did that. Sev's read that out. Stepmum made in there.

Josh: But before you said, I was about to say the only stuff that George likes is obviously of that one. But then when I found, when it went that severe Wow. So backed off.

Tommy: No, it is. Well, it's— well, and then the stuff around like when the Super Bowl's on and what happens to porn habits at the times. Yes, fascinated.

Nikki: You know, when the elections are on. But you can look at the categories and you look at how many people are actually viewing this stuff. So we're able to go, hang on a second, if we're looking at billions and millions of views on these genres, then someone's being into it or someone's fascinated by it.

Josh: Yeah.

Nikki: But it doesn't necessarily mean that you want to do that thing. And this is where it starts to get complex because you might be searching— I know we keep going to the stepmom thing, but you might be searching that genre of porn, but it excites you, but doesn't mean that you particularly want to go out and have sex in that manner or roleplay with your partner that she's your stepmom. Not necessarily.

Josh: So is it status then? Is it like, is it status roles?

Nikki: Sometimes it's about like, often it's about taboo. So it feels very out of bounds and naughty and not, you know, not like we should be doing it., and that in itself is exciting. Sometimes there can be an element there that you get turned on. It could be something to do with status, it could be something to do with an early sexual experience that you had, and that reminds you of that, or something that happened in your childhood. There are so many different reasons as to why you might be turned on by that specific thing, but that's where sometimes instead of looking at the why, it's about trying to work out how we function with that. Because it's like trying to work out why someone is gay.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Nikki: You know, there used to be so much behind like, well, is it some kind of hormonal thing? Like what happens in the womb? What happens in your upbringing? We finally got to a point where we're like, let's stop trying to explain why we are sometimes the way we are sexually speaking and work out how we work with that in society. So if you're watching a lot of porn and you're finding that it is influencing your personal life, say that you're coming back to your partner and you've got all these crazy demands about what you wanna be doing, then we would have to have a look at how you can have a healthy relationship with porn and not have it negatively impact your relationship, but also discovering what it is that might be giving you ideas that you want to come back to your partner and say, hey, I want to give that a go. Not as to why you're particularly attracted to that thing or where that comes from. It's more about how we can work with it in your everyday life.

Tommy: Well, it's— if porn becomes a problem and you can identify it as the problem, like too much, or it's— you're not stimulated by your partner. It's probably, you know, if you have— but it takes a lot to identify that in yourself. I don't think many people— I don't think a lot of people would be that tuned in necessarily.

Nikki: It, you know, something like a porn addiction or a problem with porn— I don't always like the term addiction, I like the term problematic behaviours because addiction, we think of drugs and alcohol, and I like to take sex and porn out of that category. But what could be a problem for you could be a different level for me. What could be normal for me is a problem for you. So it really comes down to what— how much porn you're looking at, what you're doing, and how it's affecting your own personal life. So it becomes this really difficult point that someone could be consuming a lot of porn, and you know what, they can still go home to their partner, they're having great sex, they might be watching porn together. It's really not playing such a big role for them. You may get somebody that looks at just a little bit of porn porn, but yet all of a sudden then puts the expectation on their partner that they should be doing what's going on in that porn scene, which is not realistic. And this is the hardest thing. I have hidden on many porn sets. The tricks that go on behind the scenes are quite amazing, right? It is sexual acrobatics. It is days and days of preparation. Like an anal scene, I mean, that kind of goes up in terms of pay rank because there is so much prep that goes involved. Into your body. There's a diet, there's enemas, there's butt plugs, there's all sorts of things. So if you were to look at some crazy anal scene and think that women just are supposed to just pop it in like that, which is one of the problems with this overuse of porn in society and younger generations looking at porn, you're not knowing what goes on behind the scenes. You're not knowing all this work. And that's where we're finding this really unhealthy relationship with porn. But is it porn's fault, or is it the fact that we have this lack of adequate sex education at the right age so that we're able to look at that material and go, huh, that's interesting and that's exciting, but I know that's not how it's done? Or, you know, I studied that module on porn when I was in high school, and I know that there is so much behind the scenes. I can appreciate it for what it is, which is sexy entertainment. But I know that if I want to explore anal with my partner, we've got to talk about it and we need to maybe prepare a bit more and engage in foreplay.

Tommy: More pre-prod. But what you're saying, that doesn't actually happen, right? The module in high school of porn, is that not a thing?

Nikki: Depends on the high school.

Tommy: I mean, they are doing that.

Nikki: I just, well, I just got approached recently by somebody and it kind of really ignited in me that maybe I need to be going into these high schools as somebody who not only can communicate about this stuff but has been on porn sets. So there are a lot of organisations out there trying to educate youth around porn. What my concern is though is, is, and how it's done. I haven't been in every high school, so I haven't seen every program, so I can't blanketly say it is effective or it's not. But I do know some educators that are putting programmes together and going to schools, and I worry about teenagers respecting them and thinking what they know is real. Because at the end of the day, I remember being you know, 15, 16, 17-year-old Nikki. And I remember looking at people and being like, why would I take sex advice from you? You don't look like you've had good sex in the last 10 years. Yeah, teenagers can be really harsh.

Tommy: 100%. I, um, last year quit porn. Like, and this is where it's like, when you quit acting in porn, you know, just couldn't, it was too hard. No, I stopped watching porn. Porn altogether. And when you stop something, it seems like it's— you've stopped it because there's a problem. That usually is why people stop shit. They're like, I've had enough, I've done too much.

Josh: You weren't coming into work, that was a problem.

Tommy: No, I just had grown up as a young man watching porn from probably 12, discovering on the internet, like, and then just never thought much about not doing it or not watching it when I felt like it. Hadn't identified as a problem, but I took a year off, and I was like, it took a year off, I haven't gone full time. I, and I wanted to see what it was like to not, um, not, um, succumb to the, the, the desire to watch something that's going to stimulate me and get it externally in. So I didn't take any drugs, you know, so it was like a year of sort of meditating a lot and trying to not look for externals to change my internal state. And it was an interesting thing. What do you think about people who stopping porn, like, are just coming to and going, all right, do you think it's healthy to quit something cold turkey?

Nikki: It depends on your motivation. I mean, you know, what you're saying is with stopping these external factors, you know, I recently did something last year where the idea was that we were to sit with uncomfortable emotions and we were banned from sex porn, alcohol, even exercising, because these are all things that we do that when we're uncomfortable, we kind of want to distract ourselves. So if you're stopping porn in that context, then it might be a very interesting journey, more mentally to do with what you're dealing with and how you're processing things. Some people might find that, you know, porn's just not exciting anymore for them, so they're going to have a break, or it's affecting their relationship. Like, I personally struggle to watch porn these days, but for a very different reason. Sorry, if I could— Yeah, that NVM. I've investigated the porn industry so much that if I look at various porn, you know, scenes, it's like, oh, I know her. Oh, I know him. And it becomes really weird because then I know that it's fake because I know them and I know the difference between porn them and real them. So I look at it, or because I've been on so many sets as well, I can look at it and go, oh, I know that that's a fake. Oh, I know that she's just had her makeup touched up. I know that that's not real. So it kind of spoils it for me, which is, I suppose, the downside to the job, that I've kind of really ruined the excitement of watching porn by investigating what goes on behind the scenes.

Josh: Is that like the Hollywood version? Is there like the more grassroots level of, say, user-generated porn?

Nikki: Yeah, there definitely is. Like, now you've got things like MyFreeCams, um, and they're completely dominating that industry where, you know, you can log online and you can be talking to somebody and you can pay them various things to do all sorts of different acts. And it's that idea that I think we actually crave a connection And that's where we're kind of moving towards within, you know, we— whether you want to call that porn or not, but when it comes to these sexual gratifications, we are looking at a way to connect with something or someone. The same thing with virtual reality porn. We want to feel like we're there. So what's interesting about all of that is it goes to tell you about what turns us on. Sometimes I think it's just people assume it's the crazy, sexy, kinky, all those kind of things. But even within that, We want to connect with something. We want to connect with somebody. It doesn't have to be a romantic connection, but when we can get that feeling of intimacy and connection, that turns us on. So why can't we all just go, huh? We can have that whether it's a one-night stand, whether it's a fling, whether it's in a relationship, but maybe we need it to be sexually satisfied.

Josh: Uh, George, we've got you on Instagram. If anyone has any questions in the live stream, please Feel free to yell. Is there anything, George, so far? Nothing so far.

Tommy: Really? You meant to make it up if that's the case.

Josh: Scooter did say no porn for '97.

Nikki: No porn for '97, like the whole year?

Josh: Mr. 97, that's his nickname. Oh, the baby.

Tommy: No, not born in '97, close, but his ATAR was 97.

Josh: Yeah, you got an ATAR score of 97, which is way better than us. And so we gave him the nickname.

Tommy: We've talked with Mr. 97 about his sex life, lack of sex life. He's a 20-year-old virgin. Uh, no shade thrown, it just is what it is. And it's interesting because we've looked into that thought that, um, I think some people have looked at someone who is choosing to have sex later in life as could be as like, really, like a negative. Like, I think some people throw that, uh, or project that onto—

Josh: or project like questioning sexuality and all that sort of thing.

Nikki: Are you gay if you haven't had sex yet? So it's interesting, there's this research that's come out in the last kind of 6 months. It was broadcast a lot around the ABC that this generation of teenagers are having less sex than their parents' generation.

Josh: The sex recession.

Nikki: Yeah, so, you know, and everyone's kind of trying to speculate why that is. Is it fear? You know, is it because we're talking about STIs? Is it the MeToo era and everyone's kind of too scared to hit on each other? I actually think as well that we're exploring our sexuality in a lot more healthier way. So if you don't want to have sex and you don't feel like you have to conform to losing your virginity as soon as the legal age hits, then we have more acceptance for that. People are exploring how they want to live their lives sexually. That's more up to them than buckling to peer pressure. And I think that's actually a positive because I remember being at school and it was kind of that 14, 15, 16 age where you had to be kissing a boy, then you had to be getting fingered and giving blowjobs. And it was like this wearing this badge of honor. And once everyone started doing it, you kind of had to do it as well.

Josh: Unless you had the fingered badge, you know, piece of shit.

Nikki: Yeah, it was like a pin that we put on our blazers. I got fingered on the weekend. You know, but it was like that. We were conforming. And I think these days we are empowering this next generation to explore what they want and what works for them. Instead of being pushed, especially when it comes to sexually speaking, into doing things that they maybe should be doing. And I think that's healthy, you know. I think that ideally it comes down to what innately you want and you feel comfortable with. And we are living in an over-sexualized society, and, you know, a byproduct of that is that we're all feeling like we have to be sexual, especially women. You know, women now look like porn stars and Kardashians from a young age. And they're so sexualized. And even for a sexologist to say that, like, it scares me sometimes when I see younger girls because I think, oh my God, you're never going to look back at the photos that we now look back on and go, what the hell was I wearing? Like, everybody from, you know, 30 onwards can look back to their teenage years and goes, oh my God, I looked so dorky, or what was I wearing? They all look so cool now. Like, they look so sexual.

Tommy: They look all like, you know, young kids looking adults, 18 to 20, you know.

Nikki: But the irony about that is that the sexy look these days is not even conducive to good sex. So you think about what we idolise as sexy for a woman. You know, long nails, fake tan, eyelash extensions, hair extensions, all done up. Now think about what you would expect good sex to be.

Josh: It's pretty impractical, all that, isn't it?

Nikki: Exactly. And someone pointed this out to me and said what we are worshipping as sexy is not even conducive to what we're trying to be.

Josh: Checking nails like a netball game, making sure that's not too sharp.

Nikki: You gotta have clip extensions so you can take them off and, you know, and then get dirty. But, you know, this is a problem, is that even porn stars, you know, people think that this younger generation are looking like porn stars. Now, I've been to those porn conferences that it's big ballrooms and you've got all these different stands of all the different production companies. Maybe you guys should go.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, our production company. Yeah, are we going to get into porn?

Nikki: You see, you see every different person represented in terms of diversity. You know, even guys, girls, body types, ethnicity, tattoos, not tattoos, flat chested, implants. You know, there is so much diversity that is actually represented in porn, and I can jump online and I could find a woman who I feel I can identify with. But when we have a look at society in general and this oversexualized pressure that teenagers and young women are under especially, They look like what porn stars used to look like, you know, the Jesse Jameson era, you know, where they were all that kind of plumped up and fake and plastic and looking really, you know, like they've been in the makeup chair for 5 hours.

Josh: Yeah. What are some questions that say Mr. 97, who's on his own journey, what questions can he personally ask that doesn't enter into society's norms or pressures?

Nikki: You're talking asking himself?

Josh: Yeah, if he was to ask himself some questions around, so people are saying, oh, you're doing this or what's happening. How can we learn about ourselves and our sexuality, especially in the early stages?

Nikki: I don't know if it's so much about questioning, but being honest with yourself, you know, and actually staying true to that. And the hardest thing is, is that when someone says to you, are you gay? Or like someone says, why don't you just do it? Not buckling to that. And that is the journey, is that you kind of have to develop a bit of a thick skin so that when someone starts prodding you, be like, you know, listen, I think you just gotta go out there. I'll just take you to a local massage parlour and, you know, you know, deal with it. You then need to digest those comments and go, how do I feel about that? Is that something that I want to take on board, or is that a comment because that's how someone else feels about their sexuality? And that's that disconnection of being able to respect that everybody says certain things because it's coming from their own belief system. Now your belief system is different, and if it's different, you need to stay true to that and honest to that. And that may get pushed and pulled sometimes because it might be a weak moment and somebody that, you know, you really trust or you respect is pushing you in a certain direction. And that's where you have to take those comments and think, is that who I am and what I really want? Or is this my insecurity getting the better of me? We all have this insecurity about conforming and not feeling rejected and not feeling, you know, out of the crowd. So if someone gets us at a weak moment, we potentially might buckle because we think, oh, I don't want to be the weird one. I don't want to be the odd one out. It's coming back and going, well, what is it that I want and why do I want it? And staying true to that. But also the difficult part is knowing that that might change.

Josh: Yeah.

Nikki: So you've got to be able to be flexible, but cheque in with yourself and go, okay, is that still what I want or are we on a different path today?

Josh: George, even if there's not a question, I want you to ask one.

Nikki: I have this friend who has this rash.

Tommy: There's a bit of support here for 97. Jasna says, I think it's awesome that you're waiting. I do too, mate. Like, my experience from— I had sex way too young in my head. I don't think I was emotionally—

Nikki: no one's emotionally ready to have sex, especially at 15 or 16.

Tommy: It's like, and I don't think you're doing— I definitely think it affected me. I had a threesome for my first sexual experience.

Josh: Wow.

Tommy: I think it fucked with my head bad, and it wasn't like it was trying to mimic porn. I don't know, it was just something. It was just the situation, right? And I definitely think it—

Josh: 14-year-old Josh cannot relate.

Tommy: But I definitely think it really rattled my thoughts around that whole stuff. And I've only kind of started realising that later in life. I'm like, that's why I like— I'm like, fuck, man, it's— it is great if it's— yeah, you don't have to— what you said, you don't have to do it because everyone around you was doing it. But I was the guy in the middle of that pack. Fucking, that is, that is, you know, like what you're saying, that the generation that I grew up in, it was all of that.

Josh: Who's fingering?

Tommy: You know, like it's a Monday at school.

Nikki: What did you, who did you do on the weekend?

Tommy: It's which, yeah, I don't think that's that positive. So if there is a different approach in young people these days, I think it's for the better.

Nikki: And you have your whole life to have sex as well. Like we, there's this, it feels like when you're a teenager, I know when I was a teenager, there was this rush to do it. You know, you had to do it. And when you think about, you know, mentally being ready to deal with the things that happen and the emotions that can come up and the connections and all of that, no one was ready. No one knew what they were doing or how to digest any of that. And, you know, now as an adult, like, you've got so much time to be bonking your brains out. You know, it's not something that you have to rush into for the sake of doing it. I mean, a lot of people regret their first time, and jury's out for me whether first time should be, you know, roses and candles and all of that, but you should at least feel like you're in a situation where you're trusted and there's respect and that you've got a connection with someone that you can work your way through it. And if something arises or you feel uncomfortable, that there is that level of communication that you could say, you know what, I need to stop, I'm not feeling so good, or say a condom breaks, or you you know, haven't been completely prepared with all of that. That's what's important rather than putting this expectation that it's got to be this ultimate romantic experience because sex is not always romantic.

Josh: What about alcohol? Was alcohol involved in your first time, Tyler?

Tommy: Oh yeah, 100%.

Nikki: How drunk were you?

Tommy: Not like I was aware. That sounds it. I did drink.

Josh: Was it part of it? Like was it premeditated?

Tommy: I did drink every weekend.

Josh: I'm going to have sex tonight and sort of.

Tommy: Yeah, that was, that was there. But then I think that the problem I found was most of my sexual experiences moving forward involved alcohol. And so then having sex off alcohol is a different experience. And so yeah, I mean, that's where it's like the combination of alcohol and being young and having sex is like, it's horrible. Yeah, I think it's like looking back, it's habitual.

Josh: Like there's so much that's like habits that are intertwined. Our mate Jack Post, who's got a band called Release the Sounds, he has this song that he did which was like about the Pavlovian effect. You know, is it the Pavlovian effect? With the dog. With the dog. He talks about his mum's car keys was like the Pavlovian effect because she was— it was when I'm all alone, I get an automatic boner. Like when his mum leaves to go out to the shops or whatever, he would straight away get a boner because he knows that he can have a wank. And so it feels like Like that habit, that's a storey about him actually. Yeah, I know.

Nikki: So when someone asks about Pavlov's dog, right, from now on I'm going to change it to the car keys and the erection.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. So thanks for that one. And so, um, no, but habits obviously play a part.

Nikki: Yeah. But also too, when you look at alcohol and sex, you know, coming back to this idea that we all have these sexual thoughts and ideas that we're maybe not okay with, we haven't voiced them, we haven't communicated, you know, a lot of that goes through our head when we're trying to have sex with somebody. And there's all these questions and these pressures and these expectations. So if you're used to drinking and having sex, alcohol lowers your inhibitions, right? Lets you release, it lets you let go a bit. You're not so much in your head thinking, is this normal? Should I be saying this? Should I be doing this? So once that's a learned response that, oh, okay, I get really nervous, but I know if I have a few to drink, I can just let go and, and enjoy this, then that's where that really cements in. And you do find there are a lot of people out there who if they are suffering from some kind of anxiety or they're nervous about it and they find that alcohol helps, then they get into that habit of knowing that, okay, I should have a few drinks before— especially in the casual scene, like, I should have a few drinks before I go out and try find someone to hook up with. And then it becomes a recipe for disaster because we all know what happens after a few drinks as well. Safer sex goes out the window, consent goes out the window. You know, it's a bigger issue these days because once you start not being completely in your mind, then you have to question what decisions you're making at that point.

Tommy: That's a slippery slope.

Josh: What's the, what's the first step if someone, uh, relates to that and they're like, oh yeah, I have to be on the wines or whatever before having sex? What's the first step, do you think?

Nikki: Well, I think the first step is actually acknowledging, right? That's the biggest thing, is you can't shift unless you actually acknowledge what you're doing is not right., and you might need to take some time to look into that and go, okay, let's think about how this has been working for me. You know, let's have a look at some of the situations that I've been in. You know, did I practise unsafe sex? Did I find I was in a situation in the morning where I had a lot of regrets because that wasn't right, but I was so drunk I wasn't able to make that decision? Because once you're able to see how it has been maybe playing havoc in your life or being a disservice to you, then you can start to connect with what do I do about it. And that might mean, okay, I'm gonna give the whole casual sex thing maybe a bit of a break because that's leading me into this temptation to drink because I get really anxious. Maybe I need to talk to someone, get to know someone a bit better, and go out on a date or have a casual hookup and not drink. So, you know, first of all, you've got to find out what role that has been playing and how it has been impacting you, because just trying to flick a switch and change it is not going to actually make a difference.

Tommy: I remember when I was probably 18, 19, when I started driving, there was a shitload of ads around nasal spray technology.

Nikki: Oh yeah.

Tommy: Which was some thing you'd spray up your nose.

Nikki: There was a tongue one as well.

Tommy: And you'd last longer in bed. And it was really like playing on the emotional heartstrings of men, I think. Like, it's like, are you lasting only, you know, 10 seconds or whatever it was? There was definitely— they definitely went really hard for a while. And I remember feeling like, oh fuck, is that me?

Josh: Like, you start counting, 1, 2, 3, now I've got 15.

Tommy: Well, I think it's perfect, right? It's like something that makes you feel vulnerable and then marketing around the anxieties that men might have.

Nikki: So it's like, which is— I mean, that's advertising in general, but especially when it comes to this idea of premature ejaculation, I think it's really complex because as human beings, we were designed— well, you were designed— I don't ejaculate and run. I mean, I can ejaculate, but not like that.

Tommy: Oh, I don't run.

Nikki: But when you look at how we were designed, right, how you were designed, you were designed— men would have to ejaculate quite quickly, right, and then go off and make sure no one was stealing their herd and protect, you know, protect everyone. And it wasn't like they had hours and hours on end to roll around the hay like we do these days. So this whole notion of lasting longer Where did that all come into play? You know, is it porn? I mean, you have to really question when there is this drive to last longer in the bedroom. If you were to ask a lot of heterosexual women about men lasting longer—

Josh: Absolutely not.

Nikki: For a lot of women, it would be if it was a matter of, okay, would you prefer more foreplay and hitting the right spots, or your partner lasting longer in the bedroom? If there's women out there, chime in. I bet you'd find a lot of women— I bet you'd find a lot of women that say, you know, okay, I might like it to last a bit longer, but you know what, I really want some more foreplay, and I really want some more oral sex, and I really want to use a sex toy. It's not the biggest thing for me to have my partner lasting for 17 minutes, you know, at a time. So, you know, where do we get off putting this pressure on men that you've got to act like porn stars? Because porn stars don't even last that long either. It's start, stop, you know, they've got all those tricks. If you last longer and you go harder and faster, is it necessarily going to be better sex?

Josh: Yeah, it's also, I guess, with the porn culture, as a young person, you're trying to like come quicker. Like the whole thing is fucking get it done.

Nikki: And so you're like, someone's normally knocking on your door, like, you ready for school?

Tommy: Mum didn't, she came home, forgot something.

Nikki: That's why the showers are like—

Josh: This is the problem.

Nikki: Why is he having a long shower?

Josh: Well, think about the kids nowadays with parents with the reusable bags, the wool— like forgetting the green bags at home. You know, like we never had that. They didn't have to worry about bags. So, I can imagine that's a big concern. But actually on the shower thing, that reminds me of the squeegee.

Tommy: Oh yeah. Episode 14, our famous, quite infamous episode where we did a—

Josh: Here we go.

Tommy: Radical Honesty episode. Yeah, early days where we just talked, we brought something to the table, what was being fairly honest.

Josh: And so, um, this— we got these squeegees made. This was— this one says Mr. 97 on it. Oh, um, episode 14, what we spoke about, um, was, you know how you were saying about the education in schools? Uh, an older lady who was my sex ed teacher, she would have been in her 70s, she said to us that about the male G-spot. And so I went home as a 14-year-old and tried to find it with my shower squeegee.

Nikki: Hang on, hang on! That end?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, no, that handle end. This isn't too size—

Tommy: No, this one's much bigger.

Josh: Anyway, and so being really sitting with me, pun intended.

Nikki: Wasn't it rough?

Josh: Nah, because it was like you had the lubrication of the... The shower gel and Mum's like, why are we going through so much shower gel? We got it yesterday. It's like, Mum, do you want me to tear my asshole? And so anyway, I did it once, then I discovered I'm like, I don't want to be that guy. I did some squeegee. Yeah. Like, I just, it felt like it was—

Tommy: I mean, you only need to do it once to be that guy.

Nikki: Apparently we've got a community. You are now, I was just going to say, you really are now.

Josh: I've doubled down.

Nikki: But there's nothing shameful if you get off putting a Squeegee up your ass. Yeah, as long as you're being safe.

Josh: And that was the whole thing is I was like, well, I'd, I'd held— no, I'd held it as like a little bit of a like, I can't believe I did that, it was embarrassing. And so that's what the radical honesty of episode 14 was like, actually.

Nikki: Oh, I've got plenty of those.

Josh: People are doing weird shit. Like, my brother was pissed about the squeegees. I fucking use that thing for what it's meant for. Um, but, uh, it's probably still disinfecting his hands. But every time Tommy, it feels like he's at an Airbnb or anywhere, he sees a squeegee in a shower and takes a photo.

Tommy: What do you reckon?

Josh: Does it turn you on? To be clear, the one that we had was very minimal and it had no edges. It was just, had no edges. It was just, and it sort of, it was almost.

Nikki: Actually, I commend you as a kid because good on you for realising that the squeegee, right? So that is not going to keep going because the biggest problem is with inserting things up the anus is not having a flat base or a handle that it can continue to go in. And that's a massive problem. And this is why, you know, when you talk about sex education, if you would have taken an object, taken the squishy bit out, you could have gotten into big trouble.

Josh: Yeah, get caught.

Tommy: Well, not get caught, but that could have— that could get stuck in. And then what happens is people try going and get it, and they're pushing it up, and there is kind of more of a suction thing. Now you think of the bowel as opposed to the vaginal canal. You've got a cervix, the vaginal canal, that the opening is like super, super tiny, so nothing's getting in there. So if you do find you get something stuck, you know what, it's going to be able to come out. You might need to go to a doctor if it's something really small, but you'll be able to retrieve it. If you have something that goes through the back passage and keeps going in, they may actually have to take it out through like keyhole surgery. So they actually have to— they can't go in through the anus. They may have to take it out. Now, if it's also down— and this becomes a real interesting medical problem. If it damages the bowel, I've known of cases where they actually have to give someone a stoma bag for the bowel to heal and retrieve whatever it is through the stomach. So, you know, it comes back to this idea of why can't we have better sex education so people don't find themselves in that mess?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Why can't we? Why can't we speak to young— because I don't remember sex education.

Josh: Why can't we be in that mess?

Tommy: But why, why isn't it spoke? Why is it something that is taboo?

Nikki: Because it's a taboo subject.

Tommy: But why is it still taboo all these years?

Nikki: Because we still have a society that is influenced heavily by religion, um, you know, sex is always going to be taboo no matter where we are. We're never going to not have sex be a taboo subject. Sex was something that we were controlled with fear. Don't do it, you'll die. Don't do it, you know, this will happen. You know, you think about over the years how many negative messages have been instilled in us about human sexuality. We still carry that around in certain areas of society. We're still taught that it's a private subject, you don't talk about it, you know, all these things. And now we have this generation that is thirsty for the education. They're putting up their hand and going, we want to know this stuff, we want to explore our sexuality. But there are still these massive hurdles to overcome because who's actually teaching them this? You know, there are a lot of teachers that don't feel fully equipped and they feel really uncomfortable teaching teenagers and kids about sex, because maybe they're given a syllabus, maybe they're given bits and pieces, and they just don't feel like this is their area of expertise. I think you also have the problem of whose responsibility is it? Is it schools or is it parents? And that's a debate that's continually going on. Who is actually responsible for giving the right sex education to kids? Because then you have a look at the school syllabus and you have a look at all the things that they're trying to fit in into one week Right. Now sex education is important, but is it more important than teaching kids about finances these days? You know, I wish at school someone would have sat me down and taught me about bank accounts and interest rates. And when I get older, what I might have to do to get a loan and all these kind of things, which I think, you know, they are starting to do more in schools. You're trying to fit all these extra things in.

Josh: Tax returns. Exactly. Like, yeah, we're prioritising squeegees or tax returns.

Nikki: But this is the thing, then where in the syllabus do we put adequate sex education, who's responsible for it, you know.

Josh: And it gets shelved.

Nikki: It does. And if you come— if you're at a school that is backed by a religion, then you're also contending with those religious beliefs.

Tommy: Yeah, nice shelf joke, Josh. Yeah, I just had to bring light to it.

Josh: Thank you, George. What do people say? I feel like people are saying stuff on Instagram.

Tommy: Tiff's just, uh, said something that as a former teacher, I used to have young girls watching porn as instruction.

Josh: Which is just so unrealistic. Yeah, she also said, nothing weird about doing weird shit, Josh. Thanks, Tiff. Thanks for the support.

Tommy: Nice.

Nikki: Yeah, for that little note on that thing, porn should not be an instructional— I don't say DVD because it's all online, you know, but it's not an instructional movie. And this is the problem, is that we actually need to be educating teens around the intent of porn. So porn is like watching a Hollywood movie. Right? But it's sexy entertainment, so it's entertaining, but it's also there to turn us on. In no way, shape, or form should you be learning how to drive a car from watching The Fast and the Furious. So then why is it that we think that we should be having sex like porn stars? And I think part of the problem is, is that most of us know that we can have sex, so we look at those scenes that are going on and think, well, I can do that because it's human beings having sex. But we still need to incorporate this element of there's a lot of trips— tricks, and there's a lot of things that are going on behind the scenes, and it's I mean, it's real, but it's not real. If we're not able to teach teens and kids that concept early on, people are curious about porn. Most people watch porn in the beginning. I mean, not boys, but, you know, a lot of people watch porn in the beginning because they're curious. They want to see what sex looks like. I mean, I remember being so fascinated. Like, you grow up watching those, you know, you get a PG film and you had like a bit of a sex scene. You're like, what does it look like? Like, how does it all work?

Josh: SBS was good for that.

Nikki: Oh yeah. Or anything that's got a caption on it. Yeah. I'm fluent in French. You actually paid attention? But that's the thing, it's people are drawn to it because like they, we want to see what it's about and they go, oh, this feels exciting. I feel turned on. But they think that that's what sex is.

Tommy: Have you listened to Jon Ronson's Butterfly Effect? It's like an audiobook.

Nikki: I have a little bit.

Tommy: Yeah.

Nikki: They go into the porn industry.

Tommy: They're looking down the effects of porn.

Nikki: A little bit porn negative, that one.

Tommy: Definitely. That's the skew. And so how much? How much do you feel that there is— I mean, it's, I guess it's the narrative you're looking to go down. That one paints porn in sort of this negative light of porn stars and the effect it has on the people.

Josh: Movies are movies negative, and you've got movies that are like Hollywood movies that are really bad and like doing negative stuff. But then there's like, there's porn companies that are specifically doing like safe consensual.

Nikki: Yeah, there's some porn companies, I think it's Wicked or Vivid. One of them always uses condoms. There's a lot of porn companies where the female porn stars actually have shares in the company. They're responsible for also what they're doing. They have a say in who they're having sex with, what scenes that they're doing. There's a lot of that empowerment that goes on. And this is the problem with the porn industry in general, is I kind of feel like it needs to be divided up into sectors because at the top of the range, you've got these huge companies that are, you know, empowering their actors. They're keeping them safe. Of, you know, everyone's on board, they're consensual, they're putting up their hand when there's something that they don't like, they're looking at the type of content that they're producing. But these days, thanks to the internet and iPhones, everyone can be a pornographer. So that's not the entire industry, and there is a negative side to the industry. But, you know, once again, going back to that debate of is it always the fault of porn, or is it the problem that we don't have the support and education on how we consume porn in our life? And this is this problem. Is it the most negative thing in the world, or is it because we haven't been able to balance this relationship with it and work out how we counterbalance those negative sides? There will always be a negative to something. I mean, I look at a lot of Hollywood films and the ones with lots of violence, especially in a country like America where you can get a gun, you know, you'll get these movies where someone goes and might be killing 20, 30 people during the whole film. And there's not one consequence to that. And that might be the good guy, you know, but still he's busting into a building and all that, he's breaking people's necks. And he's—

Tommy: you're talking about John Wick? Yeah, John Wick, my favourite movie. A bit more than 20.

Nikki: Yeah, but I often think, you know, there's just no consequence to that. And, you know, I think about kids emulating and looking up to those actors as stars and looking what those characters are doing in movies. And yet people see porn as just this the most evil thing that we have in society. And that really alarms me because I can explain porn to a teenager or a child that has accidentally come across it to be able to put into context. I can't explain that. Like, if someone said to me, well, why is it that there's this guy that goes along and kills everyone in a film? Because it's entertainment. Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me.

Josh: What about, um, sex tutorials? If you think about like YouTube, he's learned Photoshop really well.

Nikki: Yeah, I have to find the name for you because I came across him on a press release. Um, it's not obviously for kids and teenagers, but he's doing a lot of content for, um, couples, men, women. But he's actually— some of them he's fully clothed, some of them he's actually like having sex, but he goes through and shows like different positions and different things that feel good. And I'm thinking, thank God someone's actually doing it. In a really kind of classy way. It's not tacky. He seems to be quite an educated guy, knows his stuff. That's more of the content we actually need.

Josh: Yeah.

Nikki: Because, and then you learn from that content and it is more clinical. Like it isn't made to turn, turn you on. Of course you're gonna find it exciting 'cause maybe there's someone having sex, but it is the kind of video that you look at and go, hmm, okay, maybe I'll try that move. Oh, that's how I make her ejaculate. Or, you know, there's all these different techniques that he's focusing on. And then go and watch porn to turn you on. Don't go and watch porn and go, oh, that's how I should make someone ejaculate. Because in a lot of those scenes, a woman is actually holding water inside of her because they want that kshh, that flushing.

Tommy: Don't ruin it for me, Chantelle.

Nikki: That's what happens. They want the visual effects.

Tommy: What about if someone's listening to this and they're thinking, there is something on my mind that I haven't told my partner. Like something, it's a fantasy or something around there. Is the advice to be honest and tell your partner what you're thinking, or what, how do you hand, how do you approach these?

Nikki: I think it depends your intent, right? If it's just a fantasy and you don't want to act on it, then you have to consider that if you voice that to your partner, are they going to think that it's something that you want to try, right? So it's not to say that you shouldn't share your fantasies necessarily, but you have to think about potential consequences to this. Let's take, for example, a man who identifies as heterosexual but is watching gay porn. It's something taboo because you're not gay, but you're like, oh, I get turned on by this because I wouldn't do it. If you were then to tell your partner that, would your partner go, oh my God, I think my partner, I think my boyfriend's gay.

Tommy: Is this a thing?

Josh: This is a thing.

Nikki: It is, but you don't get a lot of people admitting it for that very reason. I mean, girls, you know, heterosexual girls are always like, oh, gay porn's hot. That, you know, but we're not in a position where someone's going to think that we're going to turn around and be a gay man because we're a woman and, you know, that's okay. But as soon as a man who identifies as being heterosexual has any form of attraction to another man or just touches them, or all of a sudden, boom, we just want to typecast you as being gay, as though that's a bad thing. So, you know, that's just an example of you know, if you were, you know, say you had a partner that was quite maybe closed-minded, a bit more conservative, how are they going to feel if you say that, right? But maybe you're having these fantasies that you might feel like you're bisexual. Now that's something you should talk to your partner about, but obviously you've always got to think about the implications to that. That's going to open up a can of worms because is your partner going to think that you need to be with someone else, you need to be bringing someone else into the bedroom? So I think it's important to talk about all these things, but you've always got to just step ahead a little moment, think about your partner, think about how they're going to react to what you're telling them and why you're telling them. If you're telling them something because you want to incorporate that into your sex life or you want to explore it together, fine. If you're telling them something just because you want to voice it, but it may have consequences for them, that's when you have to question why you feel the need to say that thing to them.

Josh: What about honesty? Because one of the things that Tommy's been working at a lot is around like his past version of himself and being constantly honest and communicating those things. Do you think that partners need to know everything about your sexual history?

Nikki: No, I mean, I'm, I'm a different breed of person because of what I do for a living. I have no problem talking about sex. I have no problem talking about my sex life. Now, one of the most confronting things in my relationship early on is that my partner didn't want to know everything. And I was like, what? You don't want to know everything that I've been up to? But very different for me because I'm so used to talking about it. And not everybody wants to know what you've done in your past. So you actually need to get permission from your partner whether it's something that they want to talk about with you. And there's nothing wrong for if somebody doesn't want to know every single person that you've had sex with and every sexual experience that you've had.

Josh: You think you owe it to them if they do want to know?

Nikki: If they do want to know and you also feel comfortable, then talk about it. But if you don't feel comfortable, then you don't have to talk about it. This is, you know, in a way, this is also consent because both people need to be on the same page and comfortable with that information. I mean, I think the biggest problem is asking how many people you've had sex with. We tend to want to define people with sexuality. Like, if your number— like, say you're having this conversation with your partner. Say your number is really low, right? Which is fine. You might be having a lot of sex with those people, or you just might not have felt comfortable at that point in your life exploring with your sexuality. And maybe your partner perceives you as, oh, what's he been doing wrong? Or, oh, you know, something— what's going on here? Say your number is really high, right? And we don't know where each other's boundaries are, especially when it's new. You don't know how someone's going to react. Say you've got a really high number and you tell that to your partner and they go, oh my God, what am I getting myself into? Or shit, I gotta go and get an STI test. You know, all these negative things that come to mind with someone that has a lot of sex. So I don't always love the idea of keeping a number per se, but I think it's enjoyable sometimes to be able to talk about past sexual experiences, what you've liked. You know, I had this experience, um, I really liked doing that, or I had this horrible sexual experience and you know, this happened and it just made me feel really horrible about myself. And that's a way to also introduce boundaries by being able to say, I know I don't like this because I did it once and it worked out really badly for me. So that when you come to that boundary conversation, instead of someone just thinking, uh, you haven't done it properly so you don't know if you enjoy it or not, you're actually able to connect with that boundary with a storey to be able to say, I had this experience with a partner, maybe it was a threesome, and he said You count that as a 1 or a 2, by the way?

Josh: Like, with the numbers.

Nikki: Oh, the 3 services.

Tommy: That's a very personal question here, mate.

Nikki: That's also an interesting thing with keeping count of numbers. It's like, what is sex?

Josh: Yeah.

Nikki: I mean, that's the funniest thing about this subject.

Josh: 6 people were watching, but they weren't involved.

Nikki: You know, this is the problem is we actually can't even define what sex is. So when we're talking about this subject, it just blows out to be so much bigger than we first think. Because if you are having oral sex and that's how you define what sex is, but then someone else defines sex as penetration, should penetration hold more importance than oral sex just because there's the possibility of procreation? Because that then is a procreation-focused society, that it's penis and vagina, which is not how we are, not how a lot of us have sex. So why should we weight that particular sexual act as being more important than somebody who enjoys oral sex, anal sex, fingering?

Josh: Is that the religious part of the equation potentially?

Nikki: Yeah, because there's this chance of getting pregnant. Now, so many of us are having sex not to get pregnant that way, but we are very much a penetration-focused society that sees a penis and a vagina as the ultimate act. But why?

Tommy: It's real weird, isn't it? Sex, like when you think about it, such a bizarre thing.

Josh: Penetration focus. I can't remember what you said.

Tommy: Imagine if sex didn't feel good for anybody. And then again, sorry, imagine if sex didn't feel good for anybody.

Nikki: Hey, it doesn't feel good for a lot of people.

Tommy: Probably a lot of people. But imagine if you just took out anything, any emotional change in your state, how weird the action is.

Nikki: Like animals.

Tommy: That's just weird.

Josh: Animals don't enjoy it.

Nikki: No. So dolphins, bonobos.

Josh: What are bonobos?

Nikki: It's like an ape.

Josh: You only know about bonobos because of this interesting sexual fact.

Nikki: So they study bonobos with human sexuality because apparently we're very linked, like we're very similar to them in DNA. Dolphins, there's a few other species that have sex for pleasure, but most have sex for procreation. Really it's about maybe the female produces heat and puts out the signal, and the male then does his job and that's it. I don't necessarily think it feels good because they're not having sex for pleasure. But then you get other species where they're having sex not just when they're in heat because it feels good. So we can have sex and it feels good. We don't necessarily have to get pregnant, or even the different ways that we experience sexual pleasure don't even result in a pregnancy. So we need to be moving away from that penetration-focused model because it's not how so many of us have sex and experience pleasure.

Josh: So is, uh, have you heard about the dolphin dude, by the way? A friend of ours had the dolphin dude on his podcast, which he ended up taking, like, they ended up taking that whole podcast down for him.

Tommy: A guy had a relationship with a dolphin.

Josh: He wrote a book about it.

Nikki: I said bestiality.

Tommy: All right, flat out. But he was in a loving relationship, if you ask him.

Nikki: Bestiality is a really interesting topic, and I've spoken about it too much publicly on radio. Um, when I was studying sexology, there was this case in America not so long before I was there where this man had died from having sex with a horse. And the clip was up. It was him and a guy. They'd gone into the stable. The other guy had set it up, was filming it, and the guy died soon after. And I remember obviously being at a school that studies or teaches sex. It's a little bit more different, open-minded and liberal. So I remember asking one of the lecturers, how would he have died? He said, well, there's two ways. Either because if you've ever— have you seen a horse's penis?

Josh: Yeah. So, I remember before iPhones were a thing, there was a clip of a woman having intercourse with a horse that was like in the school grounds. It was a very popular clip.

Nikki: And they're humongous, those things. And they're very— and the horses are very, right? They're muscular. They're very strong. So, he said either way—

Josh: It's like an arm.

Nikki: Oh, it's humongous. And it's an arm with muscles attached to it.

Josh: I just assumed he would have been trampled on.

Nikki: No. So, he died from penetration. And either ways that that could have happened. Was that his organs were literally pushed straight in. Or you can get like an E. coli poisoning in your system from all of that. Now, this guy, I was doing some research about it, just was interested. He was a dad, right? He died. Like, it's so sad. One of the problems is, is that we don't talk about this subject. Now, I later found out is that most bestiality porn, and for some reason it came from Spain, and I found this out because we had this at the school, they actually tranquilize— not tranquilize, but they give the animals, especially if it's a horse, something to make it a bit more docile. Because if you get the wrong end of the horse and it can buckle you or something like that, it's quite dangerous. So, you know, there's an interesting thing with bestiality around consent because animals can't give consent. So therefore, is that sexual act okay? But just in general, like, we actually should be having more open conversations around safety because if you saw something to do with a horse and you thought, oh, I want to give that a go, can be very dangerous and you can lose your life. And we can laugh about it, but we go, oh, that's really sad. So why are we not having more discussions around— I know it's a very philosophical thing about can you fall in love with an animal, but there's a lot of cases out there of people that do. So do we say that that's wrong?

Josh: For someone who was like, I don't know if I want to get into it, you went into it. Um, no, it brings out— no, it does bring up some issues. Yeah, definitely.

Nikki: George, ethical issues to do with you.

Josh: Is there anything happening on Instagram? I feel like, um, 97's more across it potentially. Tiff says animal cruelty, full stop. Yeah, I'll just say I, I found, um, the dolphin book. Yeah, so it's Dolly the Dolphin. Dolly the the bloke who fell in love with it, um, said Dolly the Dolphin announced her intentions to me by positioning herself so I was rubbing against her. Okay, and what's the book called? I don't know what the book— it's just a Daily Mail article. Okay, I've got Daily Mail.

Nikki: Yeah, flick that one to me if you can, George.

Tommy: Um, earlier on, uh, I don't know if I should say the name.

Josh: Should I say no? No, you can.

Tommy: Is it very incriminating?

Josh: George just read out— tell us what they said and then we can tell you if I'm repulsed by porn. I have the best sex with and connection with my husband. Yeah. Who is it? That's great. Jasnah.

Tommy: That's great.

Nikki: That's great. Like, you don't, you're not, everybody has to watch porn. I mean, like I said, I don't watch porn anymore because I know the tricks, but it's not something that you, like going back to this idea of exploring your own sexuality and being true to yourself. If you don't like watching porn, don't watch porn.

Tommy: Let's completely avoid it. Also, it's like challenging whether it's just a habit you formed. Over the years.

Josh: We definitely lost Jasnah on the horse chat.

Tommy: Yeah, definitely.

Nikki: Well, if you didn't like porn, you're not gonna like bestiary.

Tommy: What about, do you experience, I mean, we've talked a lot about porn, but I think it plays a part in a lot of people's lives that you've probably even had a thought about it or feeling towards it. People and their partners keeping the fact that they watch porn from their partners, I think would be very high amongst a lot of couples.

Nikki: I feel like This borders into the conversation around infidelity. I was watching Bad Moms that was on this week on TV, and she— there's that scene where Mila Kunis comes in and her husband's jerking off to the laptop, and she's like, are you— where are you masturbating over porn? And it turns out that he's actually masturbating with this woman that he's been having this online affair with for 10 months. And, you know, my partner and I were talking about, like, is that an affair? I was like, well, it's deceitful. If you're having to hide something like that from your partner, then it's deceitful. And there's definitely—

Josh: it could be micro-cheating, you mean, or the Google Hangout with the woman?

Nikki: The Google Hangout.

Josh: Surely that's infidelity. Like, that's a pretty clear case, no?

Nikki: Well, for some people it wouldn't necessarily be.

Josh: Was she on the other— if it's both sides and they can see, could he see, could she see him?

Nikki: They could see each other. So it was like a Skype call. But if you have a look at hiding porn usage, well, isn't that being deceitful? You know what, you've got to question why do you have to hide it. And this is kind of the problem as well, that when you have a look at the messages that are given to teenagers around porn, yeah, don't look at it, it's wrong. We've got all these different programmes and services that block it off everything, right? We're really drumming in those messages that this is an evil Okay. Now, at what point does anyone tap you on the shoulder and say, you can watch it now, it's all okay. So a lot of people develop this stigma around porn and this belief that they have to hide it because as teenagers they probably have, they've probably found a way to get around the net nannies and they've probably found a way to, you know, go to a friend's place and look it up or hook up to someone's WiFi. Yes.

Josh: That was a thing.

Nikki: It does happen.

Tommy: Was a fucking thing.

Josh: I did it.

Nikki: As a young man, everyone stand around and masturbate. Soggy seio. Did you ever do soggy seio?

Josh: Geez. Sounds like a Mexican restaurant.

Tommy: I at least had a cover on me.

Nikki: It's a game. But there's this idea that it's something to hide. It's because it stems from this belief that it's wrong. And never do you get to a point where anyone's actually saying it's okay. And hey, why don't you talk to your partner about it? Instead, you've got this instilled idea of I have to hide it from them.. Now that's the same with the person on the other end, the person that you're hiding it from. They might have the same belief system that's been drummed into them as a teenager that porn is wrong. So therefore, when they do find out that you're secretly watching porn, then they may react quite negatively because they've been taught that it's a negative.

Josh: And so you were talking before about you've got to ask yourself, why are you telling your partner about X or Y. So in regards to the sexual history stuff or about kinks, is there a case in regards to the porn stuff around like, oh, this is a personal— like, this is an individual thing and it doesn't involve my partner?

Nikki: There's a debate for both sides, but if you're hiding it, the question is also why are you hiding it? I mean, somebody could say like, this is just something I like doing on my own. Now it might not be just this, you know, big word dump of like, hey, I watch porn and this is how much I watch it. It might be that they come in and you're watching porn in your bed and they're like, hey, what are you doing? Like, oh, well, sometimes I like to watch porn and masturbate. It's just something I like to do.

Josh: So you can not do it on the bed.

Nikki: Not on those sheets, buddy. But if you're having to like wait till your partner's asleep and then you're creeping off into a spare room or you're creeping into the study and locking the door, then that's what a study is for. It's a study something else. But why are you having to hide it? So it's finding that balance between, well, you have a right to some privacy in a relationship and masturbation and what feels good for you. But if you're going out of your way to hide it, then what are you ashamed of? Are you ashamed of the type of porn that you're watching? How much? You know, that might be masking a bit of a problem that you and yourself are ashamed of how much you're using porn or the type of porn that you're looking at.

Josh: Could that be the kink? Could that be the— could the doing it and it being naughty.

Tommy: Naughty off in the bathroom.

Nikki: It can be as well. And that's, this is the whole thing when it comes to normalising sex is that if we were to normalise everything and take away the taboo element that controls our sexuality, there's a downside to that as well because a lot of things would then not be exciting because they're no longer taboo.

Josh: All of a sudden it takes the guy 10 minutes to come because he told his partner, he's lost all interest.

Tommy: It is fascinating, isn't it?

Josh: I mean, the, the idea of, um, uh, watching porn more openly— I've got a mate who would sort of just put it on a TV, like his wife, and like they've just got that sort of thing where he could just put it on and it wouldn't be a problem. Do you think that there is a case for— do you think that that could potentially be porn parodies?

Nikki: I love porn parodies, right? Because mainly Chris Lilly do one.

Josh: I'd love to see Chris.

Nikki: I would love to see Chris just write one. So it's the funniest thing in the porn world that they try to rip off everything.

Tommy: Right.

Nikki: And there's this, they must have great legal teams. There's some percentage of like where it's inspiration, but it's not copying.

Josh: Well, parodying, like the parodying lore is great because you can get away with it completely.

Nikki: You get away with a lot. So I think it was Lena, is it Lena Dunham? She tried to get the Girls, Girls, Girls one pulled down. I've been given like Snow White, like they— and the production value on these is actually quite clever as well.

Josh: So is John Wick— does John Wick have one?

Nikki: Because it probably does.

Josh: So it's probably—

Nikki: Google search that.

Tommy: Can you actually Google the John Wick?

Nikki: The Fifty Shades of Grey one isn't that great.

Josh: Um, well, it's because it's so obvious, isn't it?

Nikki: Well, that's it. How do you make a porn parody of Fifty Shades of Grey?

Josh: But Shrek would be hilarious.

Nikki: There are some really fun— they probably— there probably is a Shrek one.

Josh: Yeah, um, using your green prosthetic vagina, probably.

Nikki: But the funniest thing is that we didn't— hang on, rewind. Who has a green prosthetic vagina?

Josh: Well, yeah, you were talking about that, the one you took through.

Nikki: Oh, you mean mine? It's not green, it was bronze. Like, it looked green.

Tommy: He gave no context. That was quite—

Nikki: it was, yes, that was my vagina. It was my vagina. Now let's jump. The funniest thing is these names, right? Every year, every year at the AVNs, which is like the porn, like the Oscars of the porn world, there is an award category for porn parodies. And I just love, like, I've been there a few times and they read out these names and I'm like nearly in stitches because it's just, it's so funny. And they are meant to be a bit of fun, but they're still porn. So I always think like if you, if you're a couple and you want to have a bit of fun with your porn usage, grab the porn parodies and put them on like a movie because you know, it's not like like something to emulate, but often it's quite entertaining, but you've still got the sex scenes. There used to be, um, did you ever get into Pirates?

Tommy: Pirates? As in Pirates in general?

Nikki: No, no, there was a, there was a, well, it's a porn, it's a takeoff of Pirates of the Caribbean, and I think Jesse, Jesse Jameson, may have been it, Jenna Jameson, one of those names was in it, and it came with, I remember, this is going back to, this is going back to the days of FHM, right? I was asked to review porn, like to write a little thing about it. And this one came with 2 DVDs and one side was like the movie and it's quite entertaining too with some porn star. Some porn stars are great actors and some porn stars are terrible actors. So it was like the sexy version of Pirates. And then the other DVD was like the cutout hardcore scenes. So I was like, what a great way that if you wanted to introduce porn into a relationship, you weren't sure if your partner was really down with it, you could watch like the first DVD and kind of, they're like, hot scenes and they start kind of hooking up and start having sex. And it's that cutaway angle from afar. So you can't see that, but you can see that.

Josh: Oh, great.

Nikki: You know, that's—

Josh: yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nikki: And then the other DVD. So then if they like it and they're like, oh yeah, it's turning me on, like, well, I got a treat for you. And you've got the other DVD that really shows.

Josh: So we need to get a DVD player.

Tommy: Yes. 7-Eleven.

Nikki: Sorry, they're collectibles. You still got to get them.

Tommy: Can you get some funny names just for us to finish on?

Josh: Well, so what movies? Because I'm already thinking I'm thinking about kid— like movies I loved as a kid that would be really— like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

Nikki: Oh, that would have to be a porn parody.

Josh: Dennis the Menace.

Nikki: That would definitely.

Josh: What's— what, George, what's your favourite movies?

Tommy: Oh, I remember there was one called, um, Shaving Ryan's Privates.

Nikki: See, who comes up with these titles? Because that is like sheer brilliance right there, right? This is what I love about it, is it— could you imagine Imagine the meeting, like everyone's around a table, right? And they come up with like the latest list of like Netflix shows and, you know, movies. How can we make this into something sexual and opt out a word and put it into the percentage of parodies?

Tommy: It's creative.

Josh: Go on in 60 seconds.

Tommy: Amen. What about, what about the, we were talking about young girls being sexualized and looking like the Kardashians and And I think there's probably a—

Josh: Free Willy is a good one.

Tommy: Free Willy. Looking at Instagram. Instagram is almost a porn site.

Nikki: It's worse than porn.

Tommy: You can just—

Nikki: Especially trans people. The problem is Instagram is promoted as reality.

Tommy: Yeah.

Nikki: 100%. Porn is not promoted as reality. Porn stars do not promote themselves as this is who I am in my everyday life. And that's why often they have a stage name. And there's a trend now. There are a few porn stars that use their own name, but they do take on a bit of a character. Now, no one in that world is going, this is all real. They're like, this is entertainment. This is fake. Instagram, everyone's out there going, oh yeah, this is what I always look like. I wake up like this. And everything's edited and it's all about angles. And you take about 50 photos to find the one with the right lighting and the right angles that makes you look a certain way.

Tommy: And you forget that. Facetune, babe. You've seen that? Oh my God. Add some hair. Add some—

Nikki: this is the thing. You can do, you can do anything.

Josh: What about revenge porn?

Nikki: Well, it's illegal.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But that feels like that's of our times as things are becoming— we're creating content in general across our whole lives. More people are filming themselves in those situations, which obviously means the content's available.

Nikki: It is a really scary area to go in because it starts to become— and I was researching this recently. Revenge porn is actually considered a type of abuse because it's exactly what it is. You know, you're attacking somebody, you're trying to, you know, take something, you're ruining their life. Whether you're ruining their life or not, I mean, these days I think if you've got a porn tape out there, it's not that someone's— or, you know, a revenge porn tape, it's not that someone's not going to hire you or anything like that, but you are taking someone's emotional state and you are trying to shit on it. Am I allowed to say shit?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Nikki: Okay, good. Yeah, we're podcasting, that's right. You know, and it is considered a form of abuse. Someone is going out of their way to attack somebody. So they're depending on what's done and what country you're in. There are now a lot of laws around it. I was just recently in New Zealand. They've got a company over there called Netsafe, which is a bit different to us where you can call straight in and go, hang on a second, someone's just posted this photo online of me and they will work with the various companies to work with you to get that taken down. In Australia, it's a little bit different that I think you have to There's a government department, GovSafe, I think it's called, or something along those lines. So, you know, we are creating more systems in place to protect people that when these images do pop up, there is a way to pull them down. It's not always easy.

Tommy: Oh man, when you got people screenshotting instantly, like, yeah.

Josh: Any tips on that stuff? Like, do you think young people should be making porn?

Nikki: I think it's, listen, it's a common day form of courtship these days to send a sexy photo, to send something naked. I think what you always have to understand, that if you are going to be sending dick pics, photos of yourself naked, photo of yourself doing something sexual, you always have to think of how would I feel if that was publicized, if that was out there publicly. If you're not okay with that, don't send it. But if you're okay with that, like, there's a lot of people who, they don't really mind. Like, maybe they're sitting there with their legs open and they're in something sexy and they're like, yeah, I wouldn't be happy if it got sent around, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. You know, don't put it out there if you're not okay with the idea of other people seeing it. And that's the filter that you've got to have, because how can you truly trust someone? I mean, even when you're just dating and in your relationship, things can happen as well.

Josh: It's like that shit can happen.

Nikki: What happens if in the cloud, yeah, what happens if someone takes your phone, finds your laptop?

Tommy: You look at all— what about, um, I mean, the murky area of when people have been hacked and then it's online? And then the people, like, it almost being frowned upon. So if people are sending around a link to someone's phone that has been hacked, like a celebrity, Jennifer Lawrence had her cloud hacked, but she came out, I think, and was saying this is like, basically saying it's like you looking at it is adding to the negativity around this, like how bad it is. You're contributing. You're as bad as the people who stole this shit.

Josh: By looking at it, there's one of us, uh, one celebrity posted, uh, a nude photo because they were— someone was basically, um, threatening to release— they'd hacked. And they're like, here, here it is.

Nikki: Great, good.

Josh: Like, that's a kudos to them. I mean, that's— that really only works if you're taking nudes based on the filter that one day it could potentially be made public. Yeah, but I don't know if most—

Nikki: I don't think— I don't think that—

Josh: yeah, I don't think most people are doing that.

Nikki: I think just, just make sure you look nice and don't put your head in it.

Josh: Well, that's the idea. Who's taking sort of sloppy— if you're taking sloppy nudes.

Nikki: Some of the dick pics that I've been sent, right? Seriously, some of those photos I've been sent. And, you know, having different social media accounts out there, they do come my way. Please don't send them.

Tommy: Are people sending you, hey, look at what I got sent?

Nikki: It's like a shock value thing. I think they get off on the idea of like, it's like the modern version of flashing. I have had a flasher once, and I've got to tell this storey because it's hilarious. I was in San Francisco at Pride Festival, and I had a girlfriend with me from Australia. I was studying over there at school. So part of our school, we always participated in Pride. I was trying to find an outfit to kind of come up with. You just put things together. I had like fairy rings and all this stuff. I don't know why I had a harness on, but I had bought a harness. I had found a stuffer, so like a flaccid penis. So if you are maybe a trans woman and you're in the process of transitioning or you just want to feel more masculine, you can wear a stuffer to feel like what it feels like.

Josh: Does it really do it? So it's inside but pointing out?

Nikki: So it's like the harness I'd be wearing and then there's a thing to hold it in place and then it would just flaccid.

Josh: Were you wearing it exterior?

Nikki: I was wearing it underneath my dress because I was like lifting up and shaking up. That was a cool outfit. So there we are lined up for these Portaloos. So I'm with my girlfriend on one side, and then there was a line over there, and I saw this guy out of the corner of my eye, and he had a jacket on, and I'd seen him do that to someone. And I was like, okay. So he turns to me, he looks at me, opens up his thing, and I said to my girlfriend next to me, do not react. I looked him in the eye and lifted up my dress. And I was like, oh my God, this is fantastic. Because what they want to do is they want to get the reaction out of you. And I was like, you know what? You are not going to get the reaction out of me. He got the best reaction out of me.

Josh: He laughed. He laughed.

Nikki: He laughed.

Josh: That's human connection.

Tommy: How do people find this stuff? Like, why does flashing turn somebody on? What is that part of the brain? What's going on?

Nikki: It's taboo. It's, you know, catching someone out. You know, it's that thrill of doing something illegal as well. The problem is, is that it is illegal. So it's a really tricky fantasy to have because depending on how you do it and where you do it, you could end up in a lot of trouble. Same things with voyeurism. You know, there are a lot of people who get off on this idea of watching people, but sometimes part of that thrill is watching someone who doesn't know that they're being watched. It's very taboo. It's very exciting because you're, you know, on that line of doing something that's illegal. But the problem is it's illegal and it's also too impeding on someone's personal space. So this is a lot of the problems with some fantasies out there, that there is a legal element to them. And we kind of have to work in with that, you know, but sometimes desire is so strong that it gets the better of someone. They know that it's illegal. They know that it's the risk, but they just can't hold it in any longer.

Josh: What's your take on, you know, at my apartment, I look out and I can see other apartments.

Nikki: I had a place like this.

Josh: And I do sort of like, I do look over. I never like stare.

Nikki: Hey, if they have their curtain open and they're bonking and you can see them, then that's kind of an invitation to at least look.

Josh: Is that— Do you think that that's the standard? Because I feel like I'm definitely, I'd spend maybe 10 seconds just scanning, seeing what's going on. Like all the people across the road love the tennis. So, I was watching a lot of screens of tennis.

Nikki: Don't have to turn it on yourself.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. You can just see it all happening.

Tommy: Screens are big enough.

Josh: But what do you think about? About that? Is that something that you think about?

Nikki: I think we're curious as to what people get up to. I used to live in an apartment block like that, right in the middle of King's Cross with a very small road between my block and the block across. And I saw all sorts of things and I loved it. It was so fascinating. And I had this one neighbour who just always used to pick up chicks all the time and he'd be, you know, really going at it. And he would— I remember once sitting watching TV.

Josh: Would you turn the lights off or is that going too far?

Nikki: We actually started off a bit of a game because we had a very brief fling, which you should never do. And then I decided it probably wasn't a good idea to have a fling with my neighbour so close. He didn't like that, so he wanted to get back at me. So he kept bringing these girls like back and he'd have the doors open. So if you're watching TV and I do this, ah, ah, and I'm like, oh, come on. So me being the brat that I was, just got two of my male friends. I was like, can you just come over and like pretend to have a three-way with me? And we had the blinds up and we're like, you know, like like, no, we didn't. We were all mates.

Josh: But yeah, yeah, wait, you didn't—

Nikki: I didn't have a threesome with these two guys. I was just like, can we all get naked and like look like we're about to and then pull the blinds down? And as I pull the blinds down, I just did this. It's very close. I just, I just don't like losing, so I was like, you know what? But the moral of the storey is like, it was so fascinating to sometimes see what other people were getting up to. And I think we're all curious by nature, and we are curious about you know, the people in our lives and their sex lives. Like, I've often walked around and I've met people, and I mean, I suppose it's part of the job, I think. I wonder how you have sex, or I wonder what your sex life is like. So as long as you're not impeding on someone's personal space, that you've installed a camera somewhere, but if someone has left their blinds open and you happen to look in, then he said, well, maybe. I mean, the law might have something to say to it, but I think that if you're I mean, I leave my blinds open all the time and my partner's always getting angry. He's like, yeah, you walk around naked.

Josh: Yeah, I always say to Bree, I'm like, so people can see you right now. I can see someone because she just walks around. Whereas I'm just like, I get changed in the bathroom and I get in bed.

Nikki: Oh, you're one of those, are you?

Tommy: Yeah.

Nikki: But I think I've lived there long enough. The chances are they have seen me naked once. So really, does it matter if they see me again and again?

Tommy: And it was at primary school.

Nikki: But that was another place.

Tommy: In primary school, I remember hearing about like kids' parents that were nudists.

Nikki: I'm a bit of a nudist.

Tommy: You are a nudist?

Nikki: Yeah, I still to this day, like when I go home to my parents' place, I mean, I don't walk around naked, but I will sleep in the nudd and like sometimes run to the bathroom. I don't know if I've ever seen my brother naked. Not that I want to, but I'm just saying I'm the nudist. Like he's the prude and I'm the nudist. My mum knows that, like it's, you know, that's fine.

Josh: A mate was having a shower and was walking to his room. Didn't know— he thought his housemate wasn't home, and the housemate, um, walked in, and my mate was at the top of the stairs, slipped, and fell down the stairs naked. And he had the worst bruise. Absolutely not. Like, could you imagine how you'd look at the bottom of the stairs naked? Is there anything worse?

Nikki: No, that's not gonna be attractive.

Josh: Anything, guys, before we go?

Tommy: Uh, the livestream finished, but I found a few other parodies.

Josh: Oh yeah, great.

Tommy: This Ain't Star Trek, Big Bang Theory, Aladdin and the Anal Princesses, Dirty Sex in the City, Star Wars: The Last Temptation, and The Office: An XXX Parody.

Josh: Oh, great. I didn't find that productive.

Nikki: Now let's have a movie night. I feel like maybe—

Tommy: Steve's at your place?

Josh: The Office, is it a parody on the English or the US version? Let me just say. Is it sort of Ricky Gervais or Steve Carell? I think I'd prefer to say Steve Carell fuck then. Ricky Gervais, to be honest. Is that fair?

Nikki: I'm sure he has a sex tape.

Josh: Which one?

Nikki: Oh, both of them.

Josh: Steve Carell was in one.

Nikki: I don't have the sex tape, but I have what's classified as a sex tape. It's the Marilyn Monroe one.

Josh: Oh yeah.

Nikki: Before she was Marilyn Monroe, when she was Norma Jean. And I don't know how Coca-Cola have never gotten their hands on this because it's called the Apple on the Coke, I think it is. And she's in her, like, it's in a brief. And she's got this apple and she rolls it around her boobs and she's got a can of Coke and she like drinks it and dribbles all over it. Um, I got my hands on it. I don't know if it's legal or illegal, so whoops, maybe I don't have it. I won't tell you how I got it, but I got, I got given a copy and I just think, wow, this would be so good advertising for Coca-Cola.

Tommy: I'm sure, I mean, people leak these things. Look at the Kardashian and look at Kim and her sex tape, what it did for her.

Nikki: I'll tell you a good storey about the sex tape thing because I have met the Mr. Sex Tape, right? So what happens is a celebrity, someone releases the sex tape. Okay, so the Kim Kardashian one was a real one. This was not put out there. So it's coming out, right? So then this guy who's the sex tape broker, he did, um, Pammy and Tommy Lee, Tommy Lee, um, Prince Harry.

Tommy: It's just the same name, isn't it?

Josh: You just say there's so much pride.

Nikki: The Prince Harry, uh, photos as well. So if you find yourself in possession of a celebrity sex tape, you go to this guy and this guy brokers all the deals. So he'll go back to the celebrity and go, okay, it's coming out. We can either manage this to your advantage. So I know that Kim Kardashian one, and I don't think this is a secret, but there is a golden shower scene in that.

Josh: Oh really?

Nikki: Yeah. Really? Yeah. So that's been cut out. So what you see of what's been out there is them brokering this deal of like, okay, well, it's going to come out. 'What can we do to protect me as much as possible?' Same with the Paris Hilton one. And that's kind of what they do. It's not necessarily— I'm sure there's celebrities out there that have extortion put there. Well, it's not extortion. It's like if your sex tape is going to come out and someone gives you the opportunity to either profit from it or alter it so that something is hidden, a lot of people would take it. Because I think that we would be looking at a very different situation with the Kardashians if she was peed on, like if there was a shower scene versus just this kind of sex scene.

Josh: It'd be a nickname for sure.

Nikki: Oh yeah, she'd be the golden shower girl. Yeah, the golden girl. Do you reckon the Kardashians would have had their success if she was the golden girl?

Josh: I don't know. Donald Trump was into that, wasn't he?

Tommy: Yeah.

Nikki: Allegedly. Allegedly.

Josh: No, he's not coming after us.

Tommy: No, no, I'm just saying allegedly.

Josh: I'd love to.

Nikki: I'll find that tape for you too.

Tommy: I'd love to watch that.

Nikki: Oh yeah. You know what? It would probably take off his socks. Spray tan.

Josh: Explains a lot, actually.

Nikki: Thank you for having me.

Josh: It's a Daily Talk Show. If you've got any sex questions, don't ask us, ask Mr.

Tommy: 97.

Josh: Um, hi@thedailytalkshow.com is our email address. And are you, are you doing a podcast at all? Can you talk about the new project?

Nikki: I can. I don't have a release date yet, but, um, I have finished a podcast called The Connection. It's a lot of fun to record because it's all dating, but I've got a lot of people, contestants or daters, I think we refer to them. So that should be dropping very soon.

Josh: Great.

Tommy: We'll have to come back on after that. After it's—

Nikki: Yeah, I'll dish the dirt on the dating side of things.

Josh: Perfect. Yeah, great. All right, today's talk show. Have a good one, guys.

Nikki: See you tomorrow.