Cyan Ta'eed On Purpose & People Pleasing

Josh: The Daily Talk Show, episode 308.

Tommy: How are we?

Josh: Sayantayidh is in the building. How are you? Good, how are you? Yeah, very good. Welcome to the show.

Cyan: Thank you. It's funny to finally be on here after so much time of listening.

Tommy: So, so you have you watched? Because it's a different— it looks like a different thing, like it's a different world.

Cyan: I've listened, I've listened on Apple Podcasts.

Tommy: Okay, now you've transported into our set here.

Cyan: I have, I have. It's very professional.

Josh: Have you given us 5 stars yet or no? I haven't.

Cyan: I'm sorry, I'll do that when I get home. You're like an Uber driver, Josh, always wanting the 5 stars.

Josh: That's okay, it is a little bit needy, isn't it? I feel like I can be needy with you.

Cyan: Yeah, you can be. We know each other well.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. Uh, TJ, Cyan Ta'eed, what do you know of Cyan?

Tommy: Well, um, other than how you speak so highly of Envato and the times I've spent in Nevada, which I've never seen you there, but you are one of the founders alongside your husband and a friend. And I went down a rabbit hole last night of watching some of your old videos, the moments of when you first started this. And it's interesting to sort of understand where you guys are at now. I used Envato before I even knew Josh. I was—

Cyan: Thank you for listening.

Tommy: —downloading some music and all that stuff. But then sort of to see the journey you've gone on, you wouldn't know, I mean, you're seeing this online business, but you're not sort of getting engaged with that. And I really did, and I hope today we can explore a bunch of that stuff. Which it's so crazy where you've come from the garage of starting Invada. I mean, Josh and I were speaking yesterday about where we're at on our journey, which is the very start. And there's a time where we're like, we're a bit embarrassed about where we're at, but we know where we wanna go.

Josh: I made TJ light a candle before you came into the office because I just said, the office fucking stinks. The air con doesn't work very well. We're having Cyan over.

Tommy: It was either light the candle or blame it on Mr. 97. Exactly. So yeah. It doesn't smell at all.

Cyan: In here, to be clear. And I actually came in and I was like, wow, this is a cool space. Oh great, it's got—

Josh: it leans towards grunge Collingwood, but that's what we— that's all we can hope for, I guess.

Cyan: See, the interesting thing in watching Josh's journey is I just feel like he's gotten cooler and cooler as he's gotten older. He's found his personal style. He's just— yeah, like, what?

Josh: It's very basic, the style though. It's just like keeping it very minimal, I guess.

Cyan: You're just super cool these days, whereas I feel like you were cool when I when I met you personality-wise, but your personal style, you weren't as like comfortable in your own skin.

Josh: Yeah, I think comfort, definitely. How much have you felt that you've developed from a style point of view and just a comfort of being yourself? Me? Yeah.

Cyan: Um, I think I felt like for a long time, because Envato was growing really quickly and you needed to manage all these people and you need to seem like you knew what you were doing, that I often felt like I had to kind of play a role as opposed to just being me. Yeah. And so I'm, as I get older, I'm trying to just be me more. And Collis always said to me, like, I'd get super stressed out before I'd go do like hard panels or speaking engagements with intimidating people.

Tommy: You're on a hard panel today, by the way.

Cyan: I am on a hard panel. Yeah.

Josh: The hardest panel.

Cyan: It's got the panel vibe, doesn't it? And Collis has always said to me, it's okay if you don't know anything. You can only be you. It's okay if you don't know everything. Probably if I didn't know anything, it would be a problem. But it's okay if you don't know everything. You can only be you and it's all right to have strengths and it's all right to have weaknesses. So I feel like I've gotten more comfortable with that as time's gone on.

Tommy: I heard a great line recently, hindsight is crystal clear. And so, you know, where you're at now, looking back to that time of in the garage, it's like we're in the garage essentially, but how much difference in where your thinking is at now versus then? Then? Has there been a heap of shifting or is it, you know, that still same person from the garage with your hubby and a best mate?

Cyan: No, no, I feel like I'm a completely different person. And to be clear, our garage was a lot less impressive than this is. This is way more, way more impressive. Look, I think you really evolve a lot over time. And I think what's interesting about entrepreneurship or about what, you know, about in its broader sense. So I would count what the two of you are doing as entrepreneurship. What's interesting about it is that you grow and you change and you evolve very quickly. It's like accelerated learning. And it is kind of like, all right, well, really the exercise is I'm trying to solve these really meaty, difficult problems to solve. I'm gonna stretch myself to my absolute limit in order to see if I can actually do it or not. Along the way, you learn a lot about yourself.

Tommy: I mean, you've lost the hat, Josh. I saw in some of the videos that you made when you worked in Vado with Sai. Yeah, you had your backwards cap on.

Josh: Yeah, I think I was going through a stage of— well, I think my hair, like we were mentioning before the show about my hair.

Tommy: Is this going to be a hair segment?

Josh: It's got that vibe, but you know, like we've got insecurities. For me, my insecurities in my hair, in my scalp. I think I've got a very sort of D-grade scalp. D-grade scalp? Yeah.

Tommy: What's an A-grade scalp? Just to be clear.

Josh: I think Tommy, you've got a very good amount of hair. I think that if you cut it more— because Tommy's got a mullet at the moment.

Tommy: Well, I'm growing a full man bun, so it's just at a point where it's just, it's very annoying. Can you show what it's looking like at the moment?

Josh: Show the back. Yeah, it's horrible.

Tommy: Yeah, so the back, it's a real party up the back there. I can nearly put it back.

Josh: Could be worse is what Si has said. There's a—

Tommy: it can always be worse.

Cyan: Yeah, no, it's time to stop.

Josh: It could be worse. Look at this. And so, so I think that definitely I was self-conscious about my scalp and my— and so I would wear a hat. Yeah, the problem is that it feels like it's even— a hat is even worse because then it doesn't have time to breathe and it just gets—

Cyan: are you worried about your scalp or are you worried about the fact you're balding?

Josh: Maybe a bit of both. No, actually the balding doesn't bother me at all. Okay, I'd prefer to completely shave. At the end of the Envato trip that I did, I shaved all my hair and Bree was like not happy about it.

Cyan: Oh really? Because I love it. Yeah, Love a shaved head.

Tommy: Well, your hubby has a shaved head. Colas has got a shaved head.

Cyan: Love it. Yeah. And you know, like kind of all the shaved head men. Jeff Bezos.

Josh: You're a big Jeff Bezos fan?

Cyan: Is that what you're saying? No, like Bruce Willis and The Rock.

Josh: Oh yeah.

Cyan: And you know, like shaved heads. I like a shaved head. Yeah, sure. And I have a theory, men with shaved heads really like me because I have a lot of hair. So I have a theory, it's like this subconscious trying to kind of even out the, like gene pool.

Josh: Yeah, well, maybe that even plays into like— I lack— I was saying how I lack eyebrows.

Cyan: Do you like women with big eyebrows?

Josh: Yeah, exactly. So maybe that's part of it too, is like, yeah, someone who doesn't have much of a brow. That's what even like Mr. 97, who we've had, uh, he's been on the dating scene and all that sort of thing. I've been, uh, picking people where I'm like, oh, I think she'd be great for you and all that sort of thing. But in some cases, maybe I think that maybe Mason looks too much like that. Like he'll be like not as into one person or another person. And maybe we're attracted to like the opposites.

Cyan: Yeah, I think so. We all have our types. Yeah. What do you think, 97?

Josh: I wanted to spring his dating session early.

Tommy: Mason's, Mr. 97, he's got bamboo hair. That's not going anywhere.

Josh: Yeah, it's good. It's a thick bamboo.

Tommy: Like you should see it. Like we've realised it could perm that and it could go up into just Afro. Yeah, yeah, that's what he's got. That's what he's equipped with over there.

Josh: Anyway, moving on from the hair stuff, because I know we could spend a lot of time on it. Sydney versus Melbourne. You, you were living— like, when it all started, you went to— you were living in Sydney. Yep. Why did you decide to go to Melbourne? And do you ever have— I feel like friends who did the move from Sydney to Melbourne they sort of spend a lot of their life, especially in winter, complaining about, I should be in Sydney right now. Do you have that relationship?

Cyan: I miss the weather and the beaches, I really do. Everything else, and obviously my family and my good friends, but everything else I love about— I think Melbourne's a far superior city. I think it's a friendlier city, I really do. People in Melbourne are friendlier than they are in Sydney. Um, people in Sydney are lovely, but there's just a warmth that you get from strangers in Melbourne that I've just noticed you don't get in Sydney. And I think in Melbourne, what I really love about it is that it's cool to care. It's cool to be obsessive about what you do, which I don't think is cool in Sydney. I think in Sydney it's a bit less about— you don't wanna try too hard in Sydney.

Josh: I would definitely not go well in Sydney then.

Tommy: Me neither. My wife's from Sydney. I grew up here. I moved up to Sydney. And I just, I mean, that's a place that like Atlassian, the founder lives there. It has a feel about it like New York or London, like big city. From a business point of view, Melbourne, what's the advantages of having the company run out of Melbourne?

Cyan: Well, look, I think, you know, we ended up in Melbourne by accident. So we had this amazing dev we were working with at the beginning of Envato to build it. And then he moved back to Melbourne while we were travelling overseas. Overseas. So after Envato kind of turned into kind of, kind of being able to pay our salary, we travelled for 18 months and worked on it while we traveled, which was really fun. But in the meantime, this dev, he moved back to Melbourne to be closer to his family. And then he was like, oh, I kind of need some help. And we're like, well, hire, you know, why don't you just hire one of your friends? Kind of need a bit more help, hire another one of your friends. And then we got a phone call going, look, you've got an office in Melbourne. 'Can you come back? You probably should be here to run this thing.' So we came back and we thought, well, we'll settle here for now. It'll be a fun adventure. And now we've got two businesses here and our kids are in school and we're here. It was just, we didn't think it through. I'm glad it worked out, but we really did not think through the gravity of that decision.

Josh: Yeah. Did the first employee, the actual jump of paying someone's salary, super, all of that sort of stuff. Was that a big decision? Did it feel like one at the time? Uh, no, we just needed help.

Cyan: We, we couldn't build, we couldn't build, um, you know, back then it was that our first product was Flash Den, which I was a terrible name.

Josh: Um, but did Adobe actually send a cease and desist, or what was the— because it changed from Flash Den to Active Den, so you sold flash assets. What was the act— what was the catalyst for changing the name?

Cyan: Adobe sent a cease and desist. Yeah, but even look, it was a terrible brand name. It was a shocking brand name. And I remember I have this memory of, you know, having this cheque to Flash Den and going into the bank and the teller going, Flash Den, what is it you do? And I said, oh, we have an online business. And she thought it was a porn site. She go, Flash Den?

Josh: And he said, Flash Den, yeah, it's got a den as well. Yeah. A den just sounds filthy.

Cyan: Den, it sounds so dodgy. She looked at me like she was appalled by me. And I didn't quite know how to explain it. Explain it, and it was super awkward. But, you know, I've gotten a bit better at branding over time. But yeah, it was not a great, not a great brand name.

Josh: It feels like, uh, you and Collis are very understated with, you know, the amount of success you've had versus how you walk in the world. You're not super flashy.

Tommy: Has it— from a brand level, like, that's when I went on that rabbit hole. That's where I was like, seeing the scale of how many people you've, you know, shared money with, you know, that your business has allowed people to flourish in their worlds or in their lives around the world. Like, that's the understated part that— I mean, I don't know how much you're wanting to just shout that around.

Josh: I think you probably would. I would, absolutely. Like, as soon as, as soon as that happens. But the thing is, I, but I feel like I've changed perspectives based on— I just remember once, uh, we were hanging out and then I'm like, okay, I'm off. And I was like waiting for my Uber and you were like going off to the tram. It just gave like a real perspective into what maybe I should be.

Tommy: Dude, when was the last time you were on a tram?

Josh: Trams just give me anxiety, so I just sort of avoid them. I like the sound of trams. I like being outside of like, at where we live now near Smith Street, you can hear the trams drive, like going past at night. It sounds awesome. And I hear like the beep beep beep, like all the closing doors and stuff. But the idea of being in it, And just like understanding the routes. I think if I understood the routes— Do you still use the tram?

Cyan: Yeah, I take the train to and from work every day. Oh really?

Josh: Yeah. So yeah, I think that's great.

Tommy: I sometimes get the bus up to where we are. It's just one route, one bus.

Josh: When have you taken the bus to here? When? You drive every day.

Tommy: I did the other week. No, the other week. I legit got on the other week. And then I was doing it quite a bit before we started our business.

Josh: Mr. 97 catches the bus every day. So if anyone's getting the praise that should be Mr. 97. But have you ever had, I feel like one of the benefits of being understated is when you wanna flex it counts. So someone just like in a situation where people care about that thing, like they care about status, they care about success, entrepreneurship. Have there been any moments where someone's treated you like a bit of shit or whatever? And then even though it's uncomfortable to do because you don't wanna have your value in that, but you've been able to flex it and made them like, be like, haha, don't think about that shit. Cause like, have you ever, have you had moments like that?

Cyan: You need to pay attention to me now. Yeah. Like, you know, you do have situations where people maybe aren't being that nice. I mean, you and I had a situation once where we were trying to hire an advertising agency and they kept on talking. You were sitting at the head of the table just randomly and they kept on pitching to you.

Tommy: —It was not random. He did it on purpose.

Josh: It was a power play from Josh. It was a power move by me. Just a real presence. Maybe it was the snapback hat that got them. Yeah. Maybe.

Cyan: Throughout the whole meeting, the guy who's working for the lead guy is going like, you know, fuck you. Talk to her.

Josh: She's the boss of this project. I've got no money.

Cyan: And he just couldn't stop pitching to you because you were a guy. At the table, even though you're so much younger than me, and he knew logically that I was the person who was the decision maker, just emotionally he was like, do you think it's unconscious to him?

Josh: No, totally unconscious.

Cyan: I don't think he intentionally did it at all.

Josh: Yeah, but, um, I think he was wearing it. I think what I remember of him, he was wearing one of those hats like that my pa used to wear, which I really respect, you know, those. Yes. Was he wearing one of those?

Cyan: He was wearing one of those hats. Yes, he was. He was a cool guy. Yeah. Um, No, but to answer your question, you know, I did a— there's this thing, lifestyles inventory. Colas is always teasing me. I say inventory and I just can't stop doing it. Yeah, inventory, inventory. It's just one of those words in my mind, I think, because I learned to spell it that way when I was like young. Inventory.

Tommy: Anyway, I say bassiness.

Josh: Do you really? No, I don't.

Cyan: So yeah, it's basically this thing and it kind of has a spectrum of 8 different qualities you might have and in what percentage in terms of your leadership style. I'm in fact extremely competitive.

Josh: Oh really?

Cyan: I'm an extremely competitive human. And I think that because I don't like that about myself, I try very hard not to appear competitive. So I don't tell people about my work stuff because I feel like it kind of, would be competitive, which I think is a really unappealing and unpleasant quality.

Josh: But is it more an unpleasant quality to hide it all? Because I do remember— you need to tell me what it is.

Tommy: Well, because you've got to have a tell.

Josh: Well, how about this? My, uh, one of my best friends in school, we sort of drifted apart in year 9, but he would say to me, he's like, oh yeah, man, I haven't studied for the test at all. Haven't studied. Yeah, man, it's gonna be so hard, right? And so I would be like, yeah, I haven't studied either, and I wouldn't study. And then he would end up getting an A and I would get like a C because he secretly— because he was secretly studying. And not only that, but he also had— him and I were both, uh, fat kids and we both had weight issues. And when we would go— when I'd go to his house and stay over, he would give me soft drink and then he wouldn't drink any.

Cyan: Well, that's just frenemy territory.

Josh: Yeah, that's not like that vibe.

Cyan: I don't feel like that's the same. I would never do that to someone.

Josh: So how, what is, what's, how do you—

Cyan: I do send a lot of chocolate home for you. It's all coming up.

Josh: Yeah, well, people don't understand the chocolate thing if you're new to Sian. Hey, well, they probably know the brand Hey Tiger if you're in Melbourne, but, uh, how did you go from, uh, having Envato, one of the biggest online digital marketplaces, to deciding to be a chocolate pusher?

Cyan: Um, so I've been doing Envato for 14 years, and while it was still really interesting, um, and I still, you know, enjoyed it a great deal and feel very attached to it, what you do day to day in a company of, you know, 500 people plus is very different to what you do in a startup. So I was, you know, doing a lot of things which were interesting from a point of view of, can I do this, it's challenging and it's, you know, useful for the business, but it wasn't stuff that I was like, oh, I love this. I love early stage startup. I find that really interesting. I love things which are visually creative and exciting.

Josh: Um, what feels like early stage for you? Like, when I came into the business, that would have been, what, 2013 or something around that time? How did that— you were— I think there were— you were hiring 70 new roles. It was the— you had just moved into the new King Street office. Where did that feel like to you in regards to startup phase?

Cyan: I still felt like that was a bit scrappy, which I think I find— I find a bit scrappy interesting that you've just got to kind of figure that out. You can't hire specialists for everything. So the stuff you and I did together, we did heaps of stuff together at Envato, which was really— I'd be like, all right, we just got to figure this out.

Josh: Yeah. And I enjoyed that too, because it's also— it's also treating— well, I think it treats employees like they're, like I felt like it was my business. Like I was able to like hustle with things and make things happen and make decisions and move quickly. And I think that it was all of a sudden you have so much more of a vested interest when you're doing it that way.

Cyan: You're very entrepreneurial though. You're very entrepreneurial. So people I found either really like working for me because they're very entrepreneurial and I give them a space to be really like that, or they wanna know exactly what they have to do every day and then they hate working for me.

Josh: Yeah, so how'd you get to Hey Tiger? Oh, sorry. That was me.

Cyan: We go everywhere. So, what I, you know, so in Vato, the core value is when the community succeeds, we succeed. There's a really heavy focus on impact. So, the focus in the business is less on revenue for the business itself. And although, you know, you need to pay attention to that. But in terms of what our focus is, it's how can we get to $1 billion of community earnings on our marketplace. And we're getting, you know, that should be fairly soon that we get there, which is really exciting. So the focus really is around the community, impacting the community, which I find really exciting. I also think that there's a, you know, a lot of people say don't talk about luck with, you know, business success and yada yada. And I agree with that. You've got to make your own luck. But also I've seen so many startup founders now where the market just hasn't gone their way, a big competitor came to get them, whatever it might be. The fact that we were able to bootstrap Envato, get it to the point where it was large enough that it was first to market in a variety of different areas, and that still to this day no big competitors come after us, is like a one in a billion type of thing that occurred.

Josh: Yeah, what does bootstrapped mean to you in regard, what did that actually look like? Is it like pulling your own savings? Is it asking friends, like parents for cash using credit cards? What is the reality of bootstrap?

Cyan: We did all those things. So we used all of our savings and we worked doing freelance every day during business hours and the evenings and on the weekends we worked on developing this business. And we borrowed $15K from Collis's parents. We maxed out our credit cards and we ended up living in my parents' basement.

Tommy: How much has the startup culture in today, 2019, changed from that? Getting venture capital seems popular right now. And, you know, taking someone— taking a risk with someone else's money versus doing it yourself. How much has it actually changed from, you know, 14 years?

Josh: And that seems more glamorous too than what— like, yeah, borrowing money off mum and dad and using credit card, like, that sounds way less sexy than, oh, we've got some, you know, AC series.

Tommy: But the thing is, that's social proof.

Cyan: Like, you know, you— it's great social proof if you get that funding. On the other hand, you are, not to put all VCs in one basket, but you're dealing with people who want a return on investment very quickly, and a commercial return generally is the only focus as opposed to anything else.

Tommy: 14 years ago, was it actually a thing, like a popular thing? 'Cause I'm sure there's people like Mr. 97, 19, coming out of school going, I need funding, I need VC funding, because they're hearing these people preach about it.

Cyan: There were a couple of VCs in the US that showed a bit of interest once we were kind of, you know, probably, you know, like kind of getting a little bit bigger, but it really wasn't the same culturally at all. There really wasn't a startup culture. There wasn't a startup community that we were aware of anyway. We wouldn't even know, have known how to get funding or where to get it if we, you know, like if we'd wanted it. And I think you do feel like you are, you can't control everything you're doing once you sort of take someone else's money money and they expect to get that money and more back. So we just decided just to sort of keep investing in it. We didn't take a salary for a couple of years. We just kind of really decided just to build it organically, which now, oh, I'm so happy we did that. But I have to say, there's no way, like it was like the Wild West at that point. There was such a huge amount of land to grab. It isn't that way anymore. Anything you wanna launch, you're probably dealing with a couple of competitors and you need some more money to do that.

Tommy: I heard you talk a lot in some of the videos about holes in the market. Yeah. Is it just less holes now, or do we need to be more creative to find the holes? Find the holes.

Cyan: Yeah, I think, um, yeah, look, I think that, you know, there was just the fact that we were able to be first to market in so many different areas, um, is, you know, it's really saying something in that period of time. There's still plenty— there's always going to be plenty of opportunity for somebody who's entrepreneurial. There's, you know, new technology coming along. There's you know, innovation, when it comes down to it, you're effectively just solving a problem. And generally it's a good idea, you know, to do something which is solving a problem you yourself has experienced, 'cause you're gonna be really good at solving that problem because you feel it. But, you know, like I think there's still stuff around, but I do think it's very different in that there's just a lot more players potentially very, you know, very close to you.

Josh: Do you think that, behind every problem there is financial reward? So say for us with the Daily Talk Show, we're trying to build this show up, we're trying to provide something unique. Could we be itching a problem, like itching a problem, providing a solution to that problem, but maybe no one's willing to actually like pay for the problem to be fixed?

Cyan: I think if you're doing really great work and the doing it every day brings you some sort of joy and fulfilment and you can earn a living doing that, then I think that that's an amazing thing. Nothing, you know, different things are gonna scale to a different degree. You might find even that it doesn't have a financial reward, but it really, you know, you are, it is an, this sounds really like serious, but almost like an act of service to some degree. Like you're serving, the people around you by providing this thing which entertains them, makes them feel connected, whatever it might be. So I, yeah, I don't think you can go, great, well, anything I do which I really like and do really well is going to make me millions of dollars. But, you know, I think you can, I hope, and I'd love to, I love the concept that you can have a work life which you're passionate about.

Josh: And do you think that with the direction that you're going and with where Envato was, is that a re— is that you restructuring your life?

Tommy: So, or is it the competitive side coming out saying, I need to do this again, like we did it, we've done it all before, and now it's like, I want to go out and do it again?

Cyan: I do think it was intimidating because you do think, well, Envato's nice and comfortable.

Tommy: I have, you know, Josh at the head of the table. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Cyan: Um, I have you know, like lack of a better way of putting it, a degree of status from Envato. And if I do something new and it's a flop, boy, that's gonna be a bit embarrassing. Especially as Collis, you know, first time round, my husband, is my co-founder. If Hey Tiger had really like been a bit of an embarrassing disaster, it would have been like, well, you know, we know who the brains of the operation was in that family, even though Collis is, you know, as you know, crazy bright.

Josh: That's a lot of pressure. It's almost like that second album territory. It feels like. You're Freddie Mercury. You've got Queen.

Cyan: That is how I think of myself.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. Queen and then, yeah, you've gone off and doing your solo thing. But unlike Queen, Collis was more supportive of your solo venture as well, I'm guessing. And living a more pure life.

Tommy: I don't know.

Josh: Well, Freddie don't know what I get up to in my downtime.

Cyan: Exactly. Yeah, I think that I look back and even like, I love Hey Tiger, I love making something for women, I love food. I think it's like art, but it is, you know, you can experience with every one of your senses. I love, I just, I love everything about it. Love the team, love Bree. But I do think looking back that I subconsciously chose something which was as far from Envato as I could make it. So it's a social enterprise, it's not-for-profit.

Josh: Which is in sort of, there's an alignment there with Envato, which is like helping people live their lives, being able to support them. What was the distinct, was there a clear distinction where you're like, it's great that Envato does that. What was the social enterprise bit? Why was that important to you, do you think?

Cyan: So I think that I find the concept that business can serve community and make things better to be a very exciting and important thing. Important concept, and I think this focus we have, which is that business success is purely about revenue, is responsible for a huge amount of the crap that's going on in the world. So social enterprise to me seems like the logical next step where you bring people together to do incredible work, they get paid fairly for the work that they do, so they get to earn a livelihood doing work that they are passionate about, and it serves a real need and social purpose within the world. So Hey Tiger funds cocoa farmer community development in an area of Ghana, which has a very high percentage of cocoa farming communities. And these cocoa farmers earn $0.78 per day. Most of these kids in these communities are growing up stunted, no access to education. Very poor nutrition. And back in 2010, the cocoa industry committed to getting the number of children in child labour in West Africa on cocoa plantations down from 2 million children in 2010 to 200,000 by 2020. It's currently sitting at 2.2 million. So it's, you know, there's 2.2 million kids who are my kids' age who are working and some of them in, you know, don't wanna be a Debbie Downer, but appalling circumstances. And something that gives us such great pleasure over here is responsible for just so much crap over there. It's just terrible.

Josh: So if it's 70-odd cents or whatever a day, what then if that's their benchmark they're working to, what's the reframing of it? Is it 5, 10, 50, like 20? $100 a day, like how do you go from such a low point and understand and reframe the whole situation?

Cyan: I don't have a, like it is a complex problem to solve and I don't have a totally elegant answer to it. The World Cocoa Barometer, which is kind of a, you know, industry body, which brings a whole bunch of different experts together to analyse how, Cocoa's going on an impact level, believes that it's going to take much more holistic community development work, which is why we do what we do. Because it's not just about the cocoa itself, it's about the fact that cocoa farmers don't have any education. There's a lack of nutrition. It's really, it's tough going. Everything from farming practises are really inefficient 'cause they're farming the way their grandfathers farmed. And you know, there's potentially much more efficient things they could be doing, to the fact that, you know, physically they're in very remote locations and these cocoa traders will come and say, look, this is how much I'm offering, you take it or leave it.

Tommy: Crazy. What comes first for you? You've got, you know, your next album, you're doing a new business. Was that finding a problem? Was that hearing about something like what was happening in Ghana? Think about what can I do, the idea of the business, which one is it for you or is it a blend?

Cyan: I knew I wanted to do a social enterprise next 'cause I think that's a really interesting thing to do, but I didn't know what it looked like yet. And then, Collis and I and the kids actually took a holiday in Hong Kong and we went to Hong Kong and I was looking at all the chocolate that they have there and I was like, there's so much more in terms of flavour profiles than there is in Australia. It's so interesting and so so fun and we're just not seeing it. At the same time, I was looking at trends coming out of the States, food trends, 'cause I kind of, I'm quite passionate about food and I knew I wanted to do some, I thought I'd kind of like to do something in food next. Also it's tangible and you can tell people what you do and they understand. Like if I try and talk about Envato, people's eyes just kind of glaze over. So, you know, we were away and I was looking at trends in the States and I was like, there are brands that are starting to focus on women. Women are the largest demographic of, you know, people who purchase chocolate in Australia, and yet most every other brand that we see is targeted either at your kids or your parents-in-law. Like, there's— nobody's kind of making an aspirational chocolate brand that resonates with women. So that's— so I was like, this is a totally impractical plan, but I think that there's something in this. But let's just say I started making chocolate in my kitchen. And at the same time, I got involved with the Hunger Project, which is this amazing charity that we work with now, in a project in Burkina Faso, which is the third poorest country in the world, bordered by Ghana and the Ivory Coast. And I was talking to the CEO of the Hunger Project, Melanie Noden, one day. And she said, well, you know, a big problem in Burkina Faso is forced child trafficking. So these children go work in cocoa plantations in Ghana and the Ivory Coast, taken away from their families, never see them again. And I thought, oh, that's like, it was so jarring that that was the impact of this passion that I have for chocolate. And I thought, well, I could, I don't know anything about making food products, but I could smoosh these things together, hole in the market, impact kind of issue that needs to be solved. That was me clapping. And I'll continue.

Josh: Between then and now, what has been the biggest change in your thoughts on things and the way that you approach Hey Tiger?

Cyan: Food products are really hard. Things with physical stock, physical product is so much harder than I thought. I think I was kind of a bit cocky in the beginning and thought, oh, you know, I've done something of Envato scale, this should be fine.

Tommy: Fine.

Cyan: And I was like, wow, this is really hard. Like infrastructure costs for making something like a physical food product is like a massive investment. So I think I have a lot more respect for the people who've done it.

Tommy: Well, most people are trying to go the other way. They're going, how can I create something that's not a tangible product? It's an online product. I can sell it while I sleep. You know, I don't have to worry about returns. It's like, it's fascinating. I mean, it's, that's the, That's where I see you, the competitive nature in you. It's like tackling that is no small feat.

Josh: Yeah, well, that's the— I think there's something appealing in the tangible as well. Even our podcast, we're like, we need merch, let's do merch.

Cyan: There's a great pleasure in giving somebody something. Yeah. And there's that Greek mama in me comes out and goes, feed, I want to feed you, I love you, I want to feed you. And I get to feed everyone, it's great.

Tommy: It helps that the chocolate's good.

Josh: Yeah, thanks. Do you think that we're actually going to have to pay more for chocolate in the future? Do you think it's going to— like, for all these things, if all— like, who's taking the money? Is there a— are we doing a disservice by only spending a few bucks at the supermarket on chocolate?

Cyan: I think if you are buying chocolate which doesn't have some sort of certification attached to it, then you really need to consider the impact that your decisions are making.

Josh: Yeah. Do you think about, like, from an issues point of view, you have that as one issue, you have environmental impact on things. There's so many different lenses that you can look at, you know. For instance, like, uh, cosmetics— if you want to be in the, in the market in China, you have to be testing on animals, like, as part of the process. These things happen, which then ends up— it seems like two steps forward, one step back, two Two steps forward, one step back. How do you look at all the different issues? Are you singularly focused or do you look at sort of a holistic approach of Hey Tiger?

Cyan: I think that, so you know, a business can become a B Corp. I don't know if you know what a B Corp is, but it's a really holistic kind of analysis of how your business is performing on every ethical level.

Josh: It's like a certification, like a standard.

Cyan: It's like a certification, yeah. You can go through that process. Process, even if you don't necessarily want to become a B Corp, just to see how you're tracking as a business. So I, I kind of feel like our job is to get iteratively better because, you know, there's plenty of stuff we do which I'm like, oh well, that's not good enough yet. Yeah. But, you know, you go, all right, well, we're, we're just trying, we're trying to tackle this problem, we're trying to put impact first. And just, we hope that every, you know, every few months we just, you know, take one step forward in terms of being a good all-rounder.

Tommy: Has there been a magnifying glass on you, do you think, from coming from Invado to now doing this?

Cyan: I certainly think that, you know, generally speaking, if you would launch a chocolate brand, you'd go, well, maybe I can kind of, you know, do some basic packaging and I'll start selling it in markets and I'll sort of, you know, um, ease into it in a traditional bootstrappy way. And I couldn't do like that, that, you know, I— it just wouldn't have made any sense for me to do that because it would have been a real mind trip.

Josh: It would feel pretty irresponsible, but it would also feel irresponsible in regards if you feel like you know the next 5 steps, do you use the resources that you have or do you, you know, like it's—

Cyan: I know, I figure, you know, like I kind of, it's a bit of a calculated gamble, but I think any startup is, whatever you're investing your sort of, you know, your hard-earned cash into to make work, you know, you've got to back yourself to some degree. So I think that, you know, I, I, but I did feel like there was a lot of people who were watching to see how it would go and that, you know, I took quite a strong position on the brand and the flavour profiles and it was so different and so other. Before I launched it, I thought there's a pretty good possibility people are going to go, what's she been smoking?

Josh: Well, this was off the back as well of, uh, winning the Telstra Business Women's— Women's Business Award. Yes. And so what did you feel? Because I feel like through Envato there was so much time where you were just sort of behind the scenes and there was sort of an active effort to go out and about and to start actually celebrating Envato. What did that teach you about the whole process? Because in some regards it's— it isn't that mind trip of we're sitting, we're doing our day-to-day stuff, nothing really changes. Like you're still, you know, grinding away And then all of a sudden with this slight slant of a PR perspective on things, people all of a sudden care. And part of it's like frustrating. It's like, these guys have been doing this for, you know, at the time, you know, 12 years or whatever. What's going on? Was that a mind trip for you?

Cyan: Yeah, it was a massive mind trip. And interestingly enough, most women who go through winning the Telstra Business Women's Awards by the end of the year are burnt out, freaked out in some way, it's just such an escalation of your personal brand. Like it really is, like we've gone through a few awards programmes now, it is the most effective in terms of getting your personal brand out by a country mile, it really is. But that also means, you know, you go from being like, well, I've only ever spoken to my team internally before to, oh, okay, I'm now, I've been invited to, you know, be on a panel with the CEO of CSIRO and you know, like these other people who I find deeply intimidating, and I'm supposed to hold my own here and act like I know what's going on. So you either go, no, or you lean into it and you go, all right, I'm gonna see if I can hold my own here.

Tommy: I saw that one of your slogans, and this was quite a while ago, so it might have changed, excitement and terror means you're on the right track.

Cyan: I think so, yeah.

Tommy: It sounds a bit exciting and also, a level of terror winning those things and then having to do that. 'Cause if it's not your day-to-day, then I could imagine.

Cyan: It took a lot of kind of energy and it pushed me way out of my comfort zone. But again, I always think, you know, like if life's about having big experiences, which I think it kind of is, then, you know, if you get the opportunity, go do it.

Josh: How do you actually cope? 'Cause I feel like for a lot of people doing what you've done at like 1/10 of the scale would scare them and all that sort of thing. And then so to think of where you've gone, was there, is there a level of trauma that you go through? I just wanted to like, because the thing is like there's people who are dealing with white, like I feel like I deal way less and I get stressed and all that sort of thing. And you know, like what's your take on mental health how you, even when you get to the level that you're at, do you all of a sudden, like, I feel like if I got to that level, it's like, okay, at that point I need to see a psychologist. Like, I feel like now I need to deal with all my shit because otherwise—

Cyan: I have seen a psychologist. I have seen a psychologist. I did for probably about 9 months just before Hey Tiger launched to the sort of, you know, like just like a few months in.

Tommy: Are these breaking points? Because is that you saying, Josh, I'd get to that and I'd— it'd be a breaking point, so I need to?

Josh: It feels like, say, if something bad happens now, I don't have enough moving parts in my life for anything to really fuck up. Like, the worst thing is that Tommy and I have a blow-up or something like that, but it's temporary.

Tommy: Mr. 97 takes my spot. Yeah, Mr.

Josh: 97 has it, cries or whatever.

Tommy: I'll be sad and happy. I love it.

Josh: Yeah, but so yeah, I guess part of is it's like when you're moving at the faster pace, it feels like when you hit a wall, there's more fatalities potentially. So what was that experience like?

Cyan: I think I've sometimes hit a wall in terms of just how much I feel I can cope with growing really fast. So being out of my comfort zone most of the time, which I am, like most of the time I'm like, ooh, I don't quite know if I know what I'm doing here. But I'm gonna like give it a good crack. And generally I think you're always a bit more capable than you think you are. But I have had times when I've just gone, oh, it's just too much now. And what I generally find is that something in my body gives out when that happens.

Josh: So something will happen physically. Yeah, well, I feel like maybe even like with my back issues, like that flares up or whatever when I'm like stressed. Do you feel that, is there a level of— because I feel like so much of my stress is self-imposed. And so part of, like, when you're building something— because the thing is, you could probably, like, you could live a great life right now and just, like, do whatever and be pretty chill. And you don't have to be doing all the amazing things that you're doing. You could, like, reduce stress. How— what is it? What do you think it is internally, your mindset, to be like rather than cashing in and being on a yacht somewhere, which doesn't feel like you anyway, but what your version of that— why is, why is it this, you know, this approach, which is starting another business, going through all the things that happens when you start one?

Cyan: You've got to do something useful with yourself, don't you? If you feel like you can do something that's interesting and is going to help you grow and is going to kind of help in some way, in no matter what way, and you wanna contribute. Like, I mean, I feel like you just stop as a human if you just decide, well, now I'm just gonna chill out. Like what's the purpose? You've gotta have a purpose which is beyond your enjoyment. What's your purpose, do you think? I think that, you know, on a personal level, it's— We have a motorcycle shop.

Josh: Yeah, that's really loud. They very rarely actually start the car. They're really revving the engine.

Tommy: They're testing the engine. It's fine, that's okay.

Cyan: So I've come to the conclusion that for me, the purpose of life is to have, you know, as many big interesting experiences as I can have, see where I can take things, see how far I can push myself. And the other side of it is to try and leave the world just a tiny weeny bit of a better place, which sounds really cheesy, but I honestly believe it's true. I believe that, you know, there's a quote, I think it's Maya Angelou, which is, you know, service is the rent that we pay for living, which I think, you know, I believe is true. And I also believe that, you know, the greater the sort of, the more things that you are given, the more responsibility you have to do useful stuff with it.

Tommy: I'm gonna tell my landlord that and stop paying rent ASAP. No, my landlord actually, is one of your employees. Yeah, well, I was always wondering, what the hell is this guy always home and not— what does he do? Turns out that he's, uh, really utilising the work at home, work remotely. Oh, interesting. He doesn't move to Perth, he moved over there now. Yeah, but it was funny. I'm just trying to think.

Josh: Yes, is it Mark? Yes, yeah, one of the Marks.

Cyan: I know, don't worry, we'll talk about it later.

Josh: Yeah, um, the The view, like, no, which Mark?

Tommy: I want to know which Mark.

Josh: I temporarily forgot what we were doing here.

Tommy: We're playing Guess Who.

Josh: Brown hair, uh, taekwondo, I think. Oh really?

Cyan: Yeah. Oh wow, that guy.

Josh: Okay, Tommy was living above in another apartment. Yeah. And then they saw him moving out and classic Tommy style. Yeah.

Tommy: What are you guys doing? Amy down for that one? Oh really? Actually, no, she, she was like, I'm going down. I was like, yes, thank you. I didn't want to— and then we said, can we take your place? And now we have it. But I always saw him wearing the t-shirts, and so it all made sense. He's one of my fa—

Cyan: he's a good guy. He's great. Your landlord's great.

Tommy: Starting the business, the vision that you have, like, now I love how I, you know, I hear you articulate this vision you have and why you do it. How different is it from the early stages?

Cyan: The early stages of Hey Tiger or the early stages of Invato?

Tommy: I guess of you. As a person and the business and the partnership you've got socially.

Josh: Do you feel like I've changed a lot, Josh? No, but I feel like, I think that like in some regard, like I think that you, there's the core values that you have and then it's amplified. The thing is I feel like part of it is my, I feel like you've got more, you feel more socially responsible or like you are more of a public figure now. When we were working, it feels like it was a lot more sort of— people wouldn't know invado. It was like pretty chill, like, um, yeah. And so I guess that's probably— I mean, I just wrote like, I feel like you are, uh, very kind. You, uh, like, I just remember like, like always feeling calm at work. I remember it got to a point though where it was like too calm because of when I was doing the social media stuff and I was like a little bit stressed. And I said to Sai, I was like, I can't work out like a po— like my one job was social media, right? Like that's at the time, that's my one job. I said to Sai, I was like, I can't think of like a post today. And Sai just like went over and she said, it's okay if you can't think of a post today, just don't post. And that was my one job with social media. But I feel that you've gotten— I think you've, you've also developed in regards to people as well, where it's like having empathy or having that tone, you can't actually do that with so many, you can't do that with people and expect like great results. So I feel like you've developed this great empathy versus expectations and all this sort of stuff.

Cyan: The thing is, is that I won't actually work with people who I don't think are eminently capable. Yeah. So if I don't think you're eminently capable, you're gone really quickly. Like in total honesty, you just, you are.

Josh: Yeah, how long were you there for, Josh? 2 and a half years. And he left, he left.

Cyan: I'm sorry, I keep on kicking in. Yeah, so that's the honest truth of it. And because I'm not good at having, I'm not good at riding people's tails 'cause I don't want to. And I'm always like, well, if you feel you can't today, then I'm sure you're thinking about how you're gonna do it better tomorrow. So I better just leave you to it. It's 'cause I respected you that I was like, well, there's no point me having that conversation with you. If you're there, 'Cause if you'd said to me, hey, Sai, can you help me figure out how to do this? I would've gone, all right, let's sit down together and let's figure it out together. But you're so capable and you're so smart. I was just like, well, clearly he's on it. Like a post today isn't gonna make any difference and it's gonna lead to something better afterwards anyway.

Josh: It was a strategy thing too, right? So I was like thinking, I was probably like over-engineering everything, trying to work out exactly that point. Post felt like it was an important thing. Do you think that people, there's some people that freak out with that autonomy or that respect that they're just not used to experiencing?

Cyan: I did have, there's a guy at work at Hey Tiger who once said to me, "Si, I wish you'd just scream at me. It'd be so much easier." There was a big stuff up and he was like, "I wish you'd just have a go at me. It would make me feel better." And I was like, look, you know, you are beating yourself up more than I would ever be able to beat you up externally. And the fact of the matter is, is that if I'm dealing with somebody who is going to pass the buck or not beat themself up when something goes that wrong, then I'm not working with the right person anyway.

Tommy: The new model of work or business of working for somebody, I think has a lot more autonomy in there. And I found that, and I'd love to know what you think, can you teach someone to be autonomous? Or do you think it's like initiative? Can you teach someone to have initiative?

Cyan: I think it all comes down from the person's intention and what they want. No, I don't think that if somebody's like, I just wanna do my job and go home, that I can sit them down and go, hey, you should be ambitious and you should be thinking outside the box and you should be doing all these things. 'cause that comes from, you know, that comes internally. If somebody's asking me, if somebody wants to be that way, if they're like, I, you know, I wanna get big stuff done and I wanna be effective and I, you know, that to me counts for like 80% of it. And then you can sit them down and you can talk to them about how and coach them through it. But generally people have got that in them. They just need some tools to think in the right, way. But if the intention's not there, if they don't want to do it, then there's, you know, and it's also okay if they don't want to do it. Different people go through different phases. Sometimes you're all gung-ho in your career, like I think probably the three of us are all the time, but you know, and I like you as well.

Josh: I like that you've aligned us with you. We'll take it. We'll use that as a graph.

Cyan: You know, and some people are just in a phase of their life where I'm like, well, there's other stuff that interests me, or I'm in a new relationship, or I want to have children, or whatever it might be. And right now I just want a career which is a bit more set and forget, bring in the money. There's—

Tommy: and that's okay too. Is it— are they in existence? Like, is that a thing now? Like, moving forward, I could imagine it's becoming more about being autonomous and flexibility, but you need to get your stuff done. We can't be micromanaging you. Like, think about your kids, and I think about my son. What's it going to look like for him. What do you think?

Cyan: So when I did this panel with the CEO of CSIRO, um, and, uh, and Australia's chief scientist—

Tommy: they're the blokes that made Wi-Fi, right?

Josh: CSIRO, maybe GPS as well, somewhere over in Adelaide.

Cyan: Um, yeah, yeah, great, look it up. I don't know. Um, is this one of the early panels that you did?

Josh: This was, this was one of the trauma panels.

Cyan: Yeah, this was like full-on trauma panel.

Josh: I was so scared. Was it those things?

Tommy: Sorry guys, I'm just getting a nod from Mr. 97. That was the actual number, right? Yeah, yeah, they figured out Wi-Fi along with Aeroguard.

Josh: Aeroguard? Yeah, it's also useful. Aeroguard gives me a bit of asthma.

Cyan: But very useful for malaria, I'm sure, in developing countries.

Josh: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so it is. But yeah, so maybe I'm not the only target market. I get it, I get it.

Tommy: It's not all about you, Josh. It's almost the, you know, online marketplace and Tiger and chocolate. It's like, well, yeah, very, two very different things.

Josh: And so, yeah, what happened in the panel? What did they ask?

Cyan: Oh, so the discussion was that basically, you know, there's going to be, I can't remember the exact stat now, but something like 40% of job loss from automation in the next 15 years. And that a huge amount of, you know, you know, jobs which are considered those kind of, well, like, I clock in and I clock out and during the day I do my thing, are just going to disappear very, very quickly. And the conversation was, is this something we should be concerned about in Australia, is it not? And of course I'm sitting there saying, well, I think we should be deeply concerned and we should be starting to think about this in school and we should even be starting to look at how we would implement a universal basic income because that might become necessary. Necessary, given that so many jobs are going to be, you know, like going away. And of course these two guys were saying, 'No, no, no, everything's fine. She's wrong. You don't need to worry. The government has it in hand.' And I was thinking, I've read this, like, you know, and me, imposter syndrome, I've read this research. I feel like, you know, this is coming and it's a real like imminent danger. It's really strange they're taking this taking this position. Then I realized, oh my goodness, they're on the government payroll. Of course they're taking this position. They don't want to go, yes, everyone panic, we don't know what we're doing.

Josh: Sniff and error guard.

Tommy: They also got free Wi-Fi. Exactly. Wow. And in that moment, what do you do? Like, you go, no, I'm— did you back yourself?

Cyan: Yeah, I just kept on arguing my point. Yeah, I just, I decided, well, all I can— I, I came to the conclusion they got me on here for my opinion And so all I can do is give my opinion.

Josh: It feels like a shift though in how you've developed as a person. Do you think that you have developed confidence? And where has that come from?

Cyan: Practice, time and practice. And a couple of times where I tried to pretend, I think I've had to get a lot better at kind of knowing where I'm confident and what I can speak to with authority and what I don't know what I'm actually talking about. Because I think I used to think that I needed to be this all-rounder who knew everything. So if I, you know, like, so I was on a Fin Review panel in front of like 300 journalists and again stressed, like, you know, way out of my comfort zone type stuff. 'Cause you're like, if I say something stupid, every single journalist could write about it in this room. But during that discussion, the journalist who was interviewing me said, you know, and what do you think about this new law that's gonna be put in around listed companies? And I just had no idea, like Envato is not listed. It's not something that interests me. I have no idea. And in the past I would've gone, oh my goodness, panic stations. I don't know, everyone's gonna think I'm stupid.

Tommy: Yeah, start saying words, start saying words.

Josh: Yes. We talked about this literally yesterday where it was like a client's come to us and said, you know, given Tommy a big sort of offer in regards to what we can do and they're like, we need an answer now. And I guess that part of the growth is being like, oh, it's okay to say, I don't, I'm gonna have to think about this. We'll come back to you on that. And it's perfectly fine.

Cyan: And I realised I'd heard sort of a woman in another panel that I'd been on who'd gone, Oh, I'm not sure. You know, and it was a power move though as well.

Josh: It's such a good power move because the thing is, it's like, it's a confidence in that's not the area that I play in. I don't really know that. Exactly. Which is like super powerful.

Cyan: It strengthens you. It's just like being fully aware of what your own strengths and weaknesses are, which I think is also very, very important. You know, you've gotta know what you're really good at in order to know what you're weak at. And once you know those things, you can go, well, I thought, no, actually I am damn strong here. So yeah, it was to be able to feel that I developed enough to say, you know what? I really, we're not listed. I have no interest in this. You know, I'm sorry. You're gonna need to ask someone else. And then she was like, oh, okay. We moved on to the next topic. I was like, that was okay. It was good. Doesn't mean I'm dumb. Just means that I'm not actually interested or know about this specific area.

Josh: And you're sure on what you do know, which I think is super powerful. Powerful. I'm going to bring up the psychologist stuff again because I feel like I'm using people as an in to try and eventually get comfortable to do it. Because it's not that there's a stigma, but I just feel that just— I don't like going on the tram, let alone having to talk to like—

Cyan: understand, very comfortable talking to an Uber driver. Exactly.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. But the troll— are you trolling me on my own show? No, just— it's just an interesting Interesting distinction.

Cyan: I see the tram as more anonymous in a way.

Josh: No, well, I see that— I see the thing with the tram stuff is I'll always stand up because I just can't deal with trying to pick who deserves the seat more than me.

Tommy: Do you know what I mean?

Cyan: I thought you were going to say who deserves to sit next to me, and I was like, whoa, Josh. No, it's the opposite.

Josh: It's like, it's like, okay, so it's like pregnant women, older women. Why would you say all women? I'll give my seat up to all women. And it's like, okay.

Tommy: And so I've just created this list.

Josh: The list is so big. Yeah. And I'm like, you know what, like I'll just stand up and then there'll be heaps of seats and then I'm standing up and then I'm feeling self-conscious about standing up. Everyone else is sitting down. Anyway, that's not the point. The point was around the psychology stuff. Okay. So what are the actual, with a psychologist, what's the actual thing that you take away and do they get into the specifics because the thing is these psychologists, they haven't done this panel tour. They don't have the experiences that you have. So how do you then, if they say, no, you just need to do this, Sian, how do you take that in and be like, actually, no, they're probably—

Cyan: No, they don't do that. That's more a coach you're talking about. What do you say? Because they'll do like, so for me, it's more getting down into the crux of the issue. So for me, I've always been really bad at self-care and I've always been really bad at being kind to myself. And I have an intense need to be liked. So I will, you know, almost play a role with people when I don't know them that well so that they will like me, which I mean, has a lot of payoffs. It really does. But it also means that sometimes I get super tired. 'Cause I'm like, are they okay? I overthink everything. I'm like, did I offend them when I said that? Really intense in my mind. And so it's more like, okay, you know, when you find a good psychologist, it's more like a conversation around, well, why do you think you feel that way? And you know how, you know, what, why would somebody really want to be your friend when they get to know you? Can you think of the reasons? It's uncomfortable as anything. It's like anytime I've gone to see a psychologist, I've come back wrecked, just exhausted. But it filters in.

Tommy: Is it, is this something you knew before you started with the psychologist?

Cyan: No, not really. I, you know, it's very hard to be self-aware and it's not like she even sat me down and went, this is my diagnosis. She was just, you know, very good at kind of coaching me through coming to that conclusion myself and asking why, like why would you say that about yourself? Why do you think it's so important that you, you know, that every single person that you meet likes you. Yeah. And then— 'Cause they do. Thanks. I try, I try really hard.

Josh: That's the problem. It's an intervention. Stop being so likable.

Tommy: It's hard, it's hard working on yourself. Like I feel like you're trying to work out every answer that they'll ask you. You're trying to work out what they'll ask you and what the answer will then be.

Josh: Well, the likability thing's annoying because what's the other option? Being unlikable. Because sometimes I think, me trying to be likeable is probably a good thing because it means that I do the things that I should probably be doing. Like yourself.

Tommy: I think, like, doesn't that make sense? If you just liked yourself, it's like, I'm sure people will like that. And if they don't, it's okay.

Cyan: Something to be said for just being kind. Like focusing heavily on being kind, I think is a really important thing. But yeah, I mean, I needed to get over the idea that I needed to engineer what I was saying so the psychologist would like me.

Josh: Yeah, well, I think that's why I face it. Well, the thing is that also being a little bit—

Tommy: Straight through a guy.

Josh: Yeah, I totally know that. The thing is I'm like, what's that first meeting? It doesn't matter.

Tommy: This is the thing, don't think the first meeting through.

Josh: But I think that it's like, oh, I would wanna go this way. Like, I feel like, okay, I've got the direction I wanna go.

Tommy: But isn't that a control thing? Like you're trying to control every element of that, control your answer, their answer, what they think of you, all of that. I think it's great. I think this is a great sign that we should book you in.

Josh: Did you know the Freud? Was it a specific, when you look for one, were you like, oh, I want like a Freud, like there's a Freud and the other one?

Cyan: I think you just gotta like the person. So I went to one and I did not like her, didn't go back. And I went to another one and I was like, oh, she's just a lovely human. I think just, you know, I love people who are warm. I like people who are warm and she was very warm and she listened and I felt kind of, I felt safe. I think that's probably the, you know, 'cause you get really vulnerable and you talk about like your childhood and all sorts of crap.

Josh: How quickly did they get to that? Because I think Bree was surprised when she went and they just like go there straight away.

Cyan: They go, they start asking you really tough questions straight away. And I do this thing where if somebody, I'm good at avoidance, so I'll just go, go blank and I'd literally have these times on me like, I'm so sorry, I just can't process what you're asking me right now because it was just too hard. But then like 2 weeks later she'd try again and I'd be like, okay, no, I feel like I can think about this now. Not that anything hyper-traumatic is happening.

Josh: Yeah, I know, but everyone's got like their variation version of it. I wonder, do you then feel because you're reconciling all the things in the past or whatever, do you need to reenter into relationships say, like, with family members or whatever and reset? Or like, because you've— you might sometimes uncover knowledge and be like, ah, that's why I do this. It's actually because my dad's an asshole to me, or my mum does this, or whatever.

Tommy: Well, you establish that there's boundaries that are way beyond what you actually think the boundary should be, you know, what you should say no to.

Josh: Yeah, but how do you look at relationship? How do you— do you feel like when you walked away from it, it's like, oh, you know, I'm I don't wanna speak to this person or any of that sort of shit.

Cyan: No, I've never, oh no, there was one conversation I did have to have, which was with somebody where I said to them, I know you don't mean it this way, but when you say this, it makes me, it's made me feel this way since I was a kid. And I need you to not say it because it just triggers me to all these other, like it kind of, it lifts the veil on behaviours that maybe you're not even aware are going on.

Tommy: There's so much subconscious. What about saying no? Have you struggled with that?

Cyan: I read a book called The Life-Changing Magic of Not Giving a Fuck by Sarah Knight, and I think it is one of the best books that I've ever read because it categorises everything into should I actually give a fuck about this or should I not? And I've only got so many fucks to give. That's gonna be the title of the show. It sounded really bad, but that is, that's how she however he phrases it, you've only got like 30 in a day. And if you give all of them away to stuff which isn't actually effective stuff you care about, stuff that's gonna shift the dial to you, for you, then you're not gonna have enough for the stuff you do care about, your family, your kids, your partner, whatever it might be. And it was really clinical and went through every single area of my life. And I went through and I realized, wow, I'm doing all this stuff stuff because I feel like I should, which is taking away time from doing stuff I'm passionate about. Like, you know, what are those—

Tommy: some of those fucks that you don't give now? I do a lot less speaking.

Cyan: I do way less speaking engagements. So I do hardly—

Josh: this podcast is very rare. So like, you don't do that many podcasts. So thank you for being here.

Cyan: Oh man, it's a pleasure. I'd never say no to you, Josh. And I, I've been a long time listener, first time caller. But no, so I don't do much of that anymore 'cause I felt like it took up a huge amount of my time and energy and I found it quite like intense. So I feel like, okay, now I know how to do it. I can do it well, but I only do it when I feel like, wow, it's really gonna shift the dial for Hey Tiger or Envato in some way, like really gonna shift the dial.

Josh: What about being kind and this not giving a fuck? Approach to things, how do they align? How do you make them work? Because I really resonate with that. I want to be able to do that, but I feel like the risk that I would fall into is it feels like it's a single needs-based, or like I'm thinking about what is it that I want and I'm going to just deliver on this and a few of the close people versus so many of the things that you do are having impact for so many other people. Yeah. So how, how do you identify that in the formula?

Cyan: The idea is not that you stop doing things for people. The idea is that you do things for people which are really effective and make, you know, and, and make meaningful sense to them. So for instance, in the context of speaking engagements, I'll get asked to do speaking engagements because people will go, oh, she's, she's the one woman entrepreneur in tech that I know of, therefore we should ask her. So rather than saying, okay, great, I'll do that, because I don't want to do it, I have a list of other women entrepreneurs that I give to them that I go, hey, look, I'm not available to do this, but here, here are these 10 women you can contact. They still get a good outcome because it's not actually me that they wanted. They wanted what I represent, um, the women who are just getting started in their career, you know, like in that side of themselves, they're speaking in their personal brand, can do it. Everyone kind of wins and nobody actually loses in that. I just had to be a little bit smarter. I didn't go, no, screw you, I'm too busy.

Tommy: Yeah, so the kindness comes in, here's a solution for what you've asked me, what I've said no to.

Josh: Yeah, I think we've even spoken about that within our business, which is like, hey, if we can't help someone, it's okay if we can't help everyone, but it's like we can at least direct them into the right area. And it's also being able to celebrate other people around you where it's like, actually, that person would be perfect if they have a good— if that person then speaks at the event that you're going to speak at and they do a great job, it's a win-win as well. And I—

Cyan: but I still have difficulty saying no for people, and I've got a big thing about people feeling like maybe I think I'm too good for stuff. So I, I do— I find it hard.

Josh: Do you think— I find that when I say— sometimes I'll say yes to things and then the the pain that it creates based on like, oh, that thing's 3 months away or whatever. It's far enough away, so I'm gonna say yes. But then it's like this long, long dread. Have you identified that stuff as well?

Cyan: Oh, that happens to me constantly. Now I try and imagine what it's gonna be like. And a friend of mine who's actually a business coach, again, using swear words again, but we'll go, it's either a fuck yeah or it's a fuck no. Yeah. And if it's not a fuck yeah, it's automatically a fuck no. So you've got to be like, oh, I am excited to do this. Yeah. Yeah. And how do you know?

Tommy: Like, I see the journey I've been on in my career and all the mistakes and things I've said yes to feel like have shaped me in some way. When do you know to have not listened to the fuck yeah? Well, it feels like a shift, right?

Josh: There's a shift from probably at the start you need to say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, enough runs on the board to then be able to say no. If you're 19 or 18 out of school and you're saying no to everything, you're probably gonna cut yourself.

Cyan: I assume more opportunities will be exciting at that point. If you're asked to go speak at your high school when you're 18, you'll go, wow, I got to go speak at my high school.

Josh: It was a traumatic experience for me actually, because I, I spoke— they didn't tell me how long to speak for. Yeah. And so it was the awards night and I actually gave a $100 cheque to the winner of the media department, like who won the media award. Was it your check? Your money? Yeah, it was Media Flex's money. The problem is I didn't have the $100 and I had to, I was waiting for a client to pay me or whatever. It was like real scrappy, early, like I was 18. But anyway, I spoke for 45 minutes, but they only needed 15, but they didn't say that. And there was the end of the talk. I'd realised I'd gone too far because a lady came up to me who was sort of— would have been considered like the crazy person of the group. And she came up and she goes, "Don't worry what anyone else says. That was amazing." And then I look back now and the final slide that I used in the presentation was a photo of Bree and I on an elephant in Thailand. Not the tongue kissing photo. No, not the tongue kissing photo. We'll get to that. We'll get to that. We'll get to that. No, it was Bree and I on an elephant in Thailand. And I was sort of like, look, you could be doing this too. That's so— And it wasn't even me being like funny. I was serious. I was like, travel the world, do slightly inappropriate things. And then the guys pointed out, Tommy pointed out elephants have amazing memories. So they probably still remember.

Tommy: He still remembers you, mate.

Josh: Yeah. Wow. Anyway, the tongue kissing photo. What is this?

Tommy: I've not seen this.

Josh: It was Facebook when I was on Facebook. Facebook. I'm off social media. But, uh, no, there was a photo, an old photo that was on Facebook of Bree and I from 2008, and it was sort of like, you know, early, early days or whatever, 18. So it's just like us being sort of quite intimate.

Tommy: You probably would have taken the photo.

Josh: Oh, it was me. Oh, but like visible tongues, visible tongues. Anyway, it popped up like as a memory, tagged it. Yeah, yeah, it got tagged up. Stuff, so then it's brought to the surface. So it's not necessarily— I think, what did you like? 15-year-old Josh with visible tongues.

Cyan: I was like, I was like, I kind of think of you like a little brother, so I was like, oh goodness, no, I can't see that. Censor that.

Josh: We'll actually post a photo on Instagram. I've got like straight hair, like I straightened my hair.

Tommy: And before we finish up, so I was looking in the rabbit hole, I found this, um, this comment on one of your videos. Uh-huh. And the comments say—

Josh: I never read the comments.

Tommy: It says, Sai, she's the audio jungle voice? Oh yeah. And something I've— this is like, I've made videos, you know, before I knew Josh, and having my experience with Envato, I was always hearing the audio jungle, which we've got it here.

Josh: I'm going to play it again. People are hearing that right now.

Tommy: And I was blown away. That's a great question. And it is you?

Cyan: Yes, it's me.

Tommy: So what happened there?

Cyan: Like, because that is a startup and there was no one else to to say it. And so I recorded myself saying "Audio Jungle" and we used that as the watermark. And since then, for whatever reason, people are so attached to it now that we don't— we have never changed it.

Tommy: I looked it up and it was like a specific— someone had just posted this on YouTube as just that sound effect. Like on YouTube? Yeah, so it's like its own post.

Josh: It's a clean one without any music or anything like that.

Cyan: Oh, that's kind of—

Josh: is that creepy? It's slightly— it's probably— there's probably fetish vibes that we're not aware of or whatever.

Tommy: Can we do maybe put the headphones on, press and hear the recorded one, and then I want you to do the real version for our show.

Cyan: Audio jungle. Audio jungle.

Josh: How do you think it went? I don't know, it sounds the same. Mr. 07, you're on headphones.

Tommy: How does it sound? I reckon retake though. Okay, here we go.

Josh: I'll play it first and then give it a moment.

Cyan: Audio jungle. Audio jungle.

Josh: There you go. Was it pretty— was it slightly like a British accent that you're doing in there? I don't know. It sort of had that vibe.

Cyan: I didn't go audio jungle. I could have.

Josh: Fucking audio jungle. Yeah.

Tommy: Audio jungle, mate. There's been a whole heap of people that like rip the— so that's like a watermark over the song. So, you know, people can't— it's for people that don't know. It's like, so you can't use it in a commercial video, but it's now become a bit of a joke that like some vloggers rip it on purpose. So they take the song, but they leave the audio jungle in there. Really? Which has like more punch to the joke of like, It's outrageous. I'm taking off a vlogger right now and I'm using music that still has these— A parody video. Yeah, it's like a parody. Yeah. So it's become a life of its own.

Cyan: Every 6 months or so a business gets in touch and says, can we please use the same voice that you've used for Audio Jungle? Can you please put us in touch with her? And they have to go, no, no, actually that's the founder, that's Sian. Absolutely, yes.

Josh: But you sing, you get into the singing and stuff. Bree was saying that she, my girlfriend Bree, works with Sai, and she was saying— Hi, Bree. I'm glad. I love Bree. I'm actually glad she didn't come today because she would have been like, we'll finish up in a couple of seconds, but she would have been very specific about the timing. Wrapping us up.

Cyan: She takes good care of me. She does Hey Tigers PR.

Josh: Yeah, and so she was talking the other day about she was like humming and singing in the office, and then you would do it, and it would make her feel a little bit bad about herself. You know what I do?

Cyan: Whenever she mentions your name, I go, Josh Jensen, da da. I don't know why.

Josh: Is it just from the Daily Talk Show opener?

Tommy: The old one?

Cyan: No, I don't think so. No, it's like the Goldfinger soundtrack. Like the song Goldfinger. Meanwhile, not a good singer because you didn't get that at all.

Josh: Where does the singing come from? Was that actually something you did when you were like growing up?

Cyan: I trained to be an opera singer until I was 18. Yeah. Wow. And I was in operas.

Josh: Can you do something like— what, what? Can you hit a note? Absolutely not.

Tommy: This is my friend, this is a hard no.

Josh: We're gonna have to end the video here.

Tommy: Get me out of here, Bruce. I've done the audio jungle, I'm not doing anything else.

Cyan: No, that's too embarrassing.

Josh: I don't want to do that.

Cyan: I sang Josh Janson. That was great.

Josh: That's okay. What are you excited about? Like the next 2019? Hey Tiger? It's amazing chocolate. It's very addictive. Addictive. So you can like, you can smash a block quite easily.

Cyan: I didn't bring any with me. Have you guys both tried it?

Josh: I'll send you some afterwards.

Tommy: Yeah, we have. I'm glad because it's not Friday. I would go all out.

Josh: Yeah, I would. It is one of those ones where you really go out. Yeah, so yeah, 2019, what does it look like? What are you excited about?

Cyan: I'm really excited that Easter's going so well. So it feels like we've nailed Easter and it's flying out the door. That's exciting. You know, Hey Tiger isn't, profitable yet. So we need to do some, you know, like there's some hard work to get it to where it needs to be. How does that work?

Josh: So social enterprise is people who are really like, for whatever reason, people get, even when you do really good things, people are always like, ah, they're doing it for tax or whatever. Like people say this shit, right? But the fact is, how is it structured? How can you make sure that you are supporting and doing it for the right reasons.

Cyan: Yep. So look, I think the reason that happens is because some businesses say, yeah, we're absolutely saving the world. And all I'm saying with Hey Tiger is it's owned by a charitable trust. So I literally, I'm the director. I can't take money out of it. It needs to go to a charity. I don't take a salary. Everyone else gets paid, you know, fairly for the work that they do. Um, what is an actual charitable trust?

Josh: What is that?

Cyan: Technical term, what does it actually mean? It's like a kind of a structure on top of Hey Tiger, which is called Give Tiger. And right now, like, so basically usually with a social enterprise, go, well, once we're profitable, we will donate X or Y. I didn't wanna do that 'cause I thought that's weird for me to do that. So right from the get-go, I was like, all right, we will donate 50 cents for every full bar sold and 25 cents for every mini bar sold to this, you know, to our charitable partner. Hunger Project.

Josh: To the Hunger Project.

Cyan: Sure. So baked it in right from the get-go. And I hope that we can do more than that in the future, but it seemed like something that was steady. And I fund that separately so that Hey Tiger can fulfil that responsibility before it's profitable. But then once Hey Tiger is running steady and it is making enough money itself to pay those donations itself, then it can declare a dividend. This is, tell me if this is getting too deep and boring. No, this is awesome.

Josh: I'm enjoying this.

Cyan: It can declare a dividend and that dividend goes up to GiveTiger, which owns Hey Tiger. And then GiveTiger can distribute that out to The Hunger Project, which it can only distribute it out to DGR status trades. Charities. Okay, sure.

Josh: Do you have to have like the, the Hunger Project to accept that money? Do they need to be a beneficiary of the trust or anything, or there's nothing like that? It can just be any charity?

Cyan: No, it can be any charity. Like we've partnered with the Hunger Project and we've committed to a minimum of $80,000 per year for the next 3 years. Sorry, I feel like I'm about to start coughing and I've drunk all my water.

Josh: Oh no, we can get 97 on that.

Cyan: We'll finish No, don't worry, we'll be fine. So we've done that and I can't even remember what the question you're asking me.

Josh: Yeah, so in regards to all the structures.

Tommy: Now we're gonna move on to corporations and breakdowns of— Business structures.

Cyan: Of IPOs, talk to me about IPOs.

Josh: No, so what's the, what is the tangible, what does it look like from a tangible level? So it's like you've got the cash, what are you actually gonna be doing in those communities?

Cyan: So the Hunger Project's, runs a really holistic program. It's everything from microloans for farmers, primarily women farmers, so that oftentimes it takes a very small amount of money. So for instance, something that can work very well is that they might buy a cow. They might get a microloan to buy a cow. They can then sell the milk or worst case, eat the cow or like basically they have, another revenue source if their cocoa yield is low or if something goes wrong with their cocoa, if there's a drought, whatever it might be. There's HIV/AIDS education, which is a really big deal because oftentimes, you know, it's a— there are very, very high rates of HIV/AIDS in those areas and family members die and it can spread very, very easily without the right education in place. And when there's there's not enough people to, you know, tend farms, it can be an issue. So it all kind of, it all ties in. There's early childhood education, there's education for adults, there's education on farming practices. There is a broad array of things, but what's interesting about it is that they all, when you dive deep into it, they all work together to create this really holistic programme that facilitates a community to lift themselves out of poverty on their own terms. Because a Ghanaian-led team will go into this community and they'll do that education programme for, you know, like, you know, 20 animators. And then they will go out into the community and they will teach all the women about early childhood nutrition, for instance. You know, what they can be eating from the land, which will keep them all going if there is a time when they don't have the money to buy other foods. So, and then those women will tell other women and they'll tell other women and it's kind of viral. So, it's the best programme I've come across. It's amazing.

Tommy: Thank you so much for coming on.

Cyan: Oh, it's a pleasure. It was good fun.

Josh: Yeah. Sayantay, thank you for coming on. Hey Tiger is the chocolate brand.

Tommy: And now you've seen the face of the Audio Jungle voice.

Josh: See you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys. Thanks.