Facebook Bans News In Australia

Tommy: It's a very low barrier to get into the Gronk Squad.

Josh: That's crazy! We've committed to do The Daily Talk Show for 10 years.

Tommy: Say hi, guys. Hi, guys.

Josh: Put it in the calendar. I'd just like to cheque the temperature in the room. I told you my squeegee story.

Tommy: It is outrageous.

Josh: Come on, let's go. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 962.

Tommy: What is happening? What is going on, everybody?

Josh: Just getting comfy being back.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, we're, um, I feel like we're at a— we're kings at a table. Yeah, boardroom. We're quite far away from each other, just slightly different setup in the studio. I mean, it's good to be back. Maybe it just feels like that because we're out of the lockdown here in Melbourne, which is good, real good.

Josh: Yeah, I had a telemarketer call me yesterday.

Tommy: Did you? I mean, I've been getting a few too.

Josh: They said, uh, is that Josh? I said, uh, no, I think you've got the wrong number. He said, I know it's you.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Josh: I said, uh, no. He said, uh, your email's janson.josh@gmail.com. He said, your details are everywhere.

Tommy: He's straight to the point.

Josh: I said, my name's Sam, and then I hung up. I knew it was you, Josh.

Tommy: Yeah, I, I mean, I, I took a different tact the other day. Uh, it was only yesterday. It was probably the same guy, actually.

Josh: Was it about investment?

Tommy: Yeah, they're all about investment. Maybe it's something to do with our business, like people seeing our numbers on sites or something. Anyway, this guy said to me, um, hello Tommy, you know, this is all chummy. And I said, oh, John, oh mate, how are you? I just sort of lent into it. What are you up to, mate? Do you hear about Doris? Yeah, mate, bad, wasn't it? And And he kind of played into it for a bit. But by the end, I just, I wouldn't let him have really a word. And he just started saying to me, "You need rest, mate. You need rest. Get some rest." I was like, "How's that?" Yeah.

Josh: I mean, I feel a lot of people need a rest from lockdown. Like, I feel like the sense is that everyone's feeling tired. Yeah. Even though they're not leaving the house or they haven't left the house.

Tommy: Yeah. Haven't done your 2 hours a day of exercise that you're only allowed to do, but somehow. You feel like you've fucking done four.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I tell you what we've got a rest from. Facebook displaying news that is coming out of Australia. They've just put their foot down and said, absolutely not. You're not allowed to post any news linking off to some sites. So news.com.au, their Facebook's gone, like completely gone. They got 1.4 million followers or subscribers, whatever it is. No posts. They've even removed the images.

Josh: What's your gauge on it for a punter just seeing this news?

Tommy: They made me.

Josh: Whose side do you go on?

Tommy: I was made by News.com.au, Pedestrian TV, Obike, 7-Eleven. What else was there? 1000 Steps. This is how I'm here, mate. No, no. And so there is a— all the radio stations we worked for and we worked tirelessly on those pages.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Jules Lund hangs his hat on building one of the biggest and highly, highest engaged page in Australia. Gone. Well, my consensus or I don't know, I don't feel for them at all. I feel like they demand, like the Australian government passed a bill on Wednesday, which meant that it was enforcing the, uh, basically these sites like Facebook and Google, which Google have agreed to the terms laid out that they will pay media outlets. So Google are handing over $30 million cash every single year to Nine— Channel Nine, I was going to say Nine West, but Nine, who own The Age and a bunch of other media outlets— for being able to use their news articles within things like apps and Google News display. Like, there's a bunch of stuff which kind of makes sense, but I don't really feel for these media outlets at all. Pedestrian. Like, they're crying poor. It is their business model. They will take a massive hit.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But you see, they did. So, there's a few things. They're threatening, they were threatening one of the largest platforms, one of the largest businesses on the planet with Facebook. They were threatening Facebook and Facebook just said, alright, absolutely not.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, as guys who like the underdog, it seems a bit difficult because—

Tommy: Yeah, it is hard.

Josh: It seems like from the media side of things, it's like, you know, you know what you're signing up for, you know what the deal is. And so, if I was Facebook, I would do the same thing.

Tommy: Yeah, me too.

Josh: Fuck yeah.

Tommy: And if I was news.com.au, I'd be crying.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I'd be pissed off. I'd be annoyed. I'd be publishing articles about where their algorithms have fucked up and taken down, you know, pages that are charity pages.

Josh: It doesn't help a bunch of things. What it doesn't help is Facebook with the, all of the antitrust lawsuits that are happening in the States at the moment because Uh, they're not looking like some sort of open platform that anyone can use at this point. They're highly editorialising things because they're basically saying yes or no on what can be on the platform.

Tommy: It's a hard one because think about— I think about my conservative friends, um, that would be— that are— that hate the thought that these big tech giants have the power that they do and they can change people's lives for the worst. They can ruin people. They can, you know, take down an individual's business. Like Facebook could just delete your page and you've lost all of your revenue. Um, but at the same time, they also don't like the news, uh, outlets based on their, you know, their stance, their political stance, and how they, you know, their opinions are swayed or they're pushing an agenda in a certain direction. So it's a hard one. Where do they, where do they sit? Haven't spoken to them today.

Josh: But the, the other thing too is how many—

Tommy: 5 conservatives.

Josh: How many?

Tommy: Actually, that would make me a conservative based on you are the product of the 5 people.

Josh: Yeah, if you're racist.

Tommy: Fuck, I'm conservative.

Josh: Yeah, you are.

Tommy: Joking.

Josh: I mean, that's okay.

Tommy: I mean, George, do not insert the snippet where I said I'll go full right wing at the start of this week.

Josh: No, but I think the thing that I find difficult is, are the people who are complaining about this, are they using the power they have, which is to get off these platforms? Are they doing that? This is the problem. There's a lot of convenience in using Google, in using Facebook, in even things like Google Chrome. Like at the start of the year, I said, I'm going to just use Safari. And within a week of being back at the office, I went straight back to Chrome.

Tommy: You were trolled so hard.

Josh: You went back. You were so annoyed that your 1Password password manager wasn't connecting Safari, you can use, uh, the password managers with Safari. Where it falls over is with extensions. And so this is the problem. I was listening to, uh, Seth Godin on a podcast called, uh, Cool Tools, which was created by Kevin Kelly, who founded Wired magazine. And he created a physical book called Cool Tools. He's the guy who, uh, wrote that great article called 1,000 True Fans.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Josh: Kevin Kelly. Yes. Anyway, Kevin Kelly had Seth on.

Tommy: You said 1,000, which even put— You pulled yourself up on it because you usually say 1,000.

Josh: 1,000 True Fans. Well, I think it's called 1,000 True Fans. Yeah. I don't know if he says 1,000 True Fans.

Tommy: 1K True Fans.

Josh: Yeah. And so, yeah, like Seth was talking about not using Google. But then went on to say he uses crime, like he ends up having to use these things.

Tommy: Yeah. I would be more affected, I think, if it was Google being removed from Australia. Imagine that. That is slightly different. Facebook, I feel, is a different breed. You're on there, you're a different breed if you're on Facebook, to be honest. I mean, I'm on there. Like, it is. There is boomers on there. There is people of our generation. I mean, we're in the, in their 30s, but like young kids aren't getting around the book anymore. Like, like it once was.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, I even— this is coming from two guys who don't know that much about, like, we haven't been— this isn't a news podcast. So, if you're expecting that, go somewhere else. But I find it interesting that there's all the talk about Facebook. But what's happening with Instagram?

Tommy: Yeah. So, the issue that people are floating is that what class is a news outlet? So, Betoota Advocate, they're a satirical, very funny—

Josh: Definitely not news.

Tommy: Well, they reflect the current topics in a humorous way, which kind of is giving you information about what's going on at the moment. You know, so it could be something about Dan Andrews, about Victoria.

Josh: Have they been taken down?

Tommy: Uh, from what I can see on their Facebook page, checking at about 2 PM today, there was— it was still there. And they had put out this thing saying, uh, sign up to our newsletter, our email newsletter.

Josh: Um, but I like this, and the reason I like it is because it forces innovation. So when Facebook— so the thing is, Facebook has been doing this shit already. Facebook, if you have 100,000 likes on Facebook, when you go post something, you're not reaching 100,000 people. You're— you are reaching a very, very, very small portion of the audience that you have. So in, in that regard, Facebook's already not showing your shit to the people who like or follow you. And so what this does, I feel, is creates a very clear line in the sand where people will, will have to innovate. They'll have to get their shit together. They'll have to say the thing that we've been renting, the space on Facebook, isn't really serving us. And so hopefully over the last, you know, 10 years, these organisations have been working towards a strategy that doesn't rely on another private company, you know, to keep them, um, uh, going.

Tommy: I mean, you think they've actually done that? You think The problem is when you just get a little bit, you know, you get a little taste. And so news.com.au or Pedestrian, which have built their business model around posting their news links to platforms like social, uh, Facebook, that have built up huge followings. And I consumed a lot of it. I mean, I was a bit agitated by half the shit that's posted anyway, the clickbait headlines. And, and I didn't get rid of it. It's been it's been done for me, which I'm not that worried about. It's great. But do you think they, when they are— so they're spending, they might spend a bit of money to push some of these links that get high traffic to their site, then they're charging advertisers on their website, you know, a premium based on the amount of click-throughs. Do you think that those businesses were thinking, let's do it another way? Like, it's like we're making money this way.

Josh: Yeah, I think that there's, um, I guess there's always a push to build brand equity so that people will go to news.com.au versus going to Facebook. But the idea is, I guess, that you need to build a habit. That there's going to be— there's obviously media companies that have a, um, an app. That's why I've been looking at The Economist a lot, because they have a completely different business model around how they— they're not relying on the advertising and all that sort of thing. They're relying on a subscription model.

Tommy: Do you, um, sorry, you finished?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Do you, do you, do you sign up to any Substacks, uh, or pay for any Substacks?

Josh: You can pay for any Substacks.

Tommy: No, I mean, there's a bunch of journalists making quite a bit of coin, American ones that are writers for big, big, big, um, news outlets that are charging a subscription fee to to get some of their personal articles, which is more of a sustainable business model than what, you know, what's just being smashed down. What if you were news.com.au? What would you do? I mean, you are around the office. That's what we call you. I mean, I don't know, like shooting the news.

Josh: I mean, so who on the Substack thing? We're always going to hear storeys at the start of the people who were making a bunch of cash. Substack, uh, got a bunch of journalists onto the platform by saying, we'll give you $100 grand a year upfront, an advance essentially, and, um, that means that you can make money, build your audience, and you just basically pay us back through the subscriptions, if that makes sense. Um, and so the problem with all of this stuff is, uh, how long can that tail be? How many journalists through subscriptions can we actually have happening simultaneously. And I think that if we learned from anything from podcasting, our experiences at this stage is that there are a 1% podcast, you know, Joe Rogan's, the Spotify deals, all of those types of things that are making huge amounts of money. And then there's the 99 other percent which aren't necessarily making a great deal. And so, I think that that's where this stuff is hard. I don't know what the economics are long term of how many subscriptions are you willing to have, how many Substacks are you willing to subscribe to.

Tommy: I mean, I don't know personally anyone who subscribes to a Substack. I mean, half the— If I told my mum what a Substack was, she'd be on it. She'd be on it. But she'd probably create her own.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: She's a real entrepreneur.

Josh: Yeah. But the, um, Yeah, on the, the Substack thing, I think in certain industries there can be serious money. To give you an example, uh, imagine, uh, say crypto is a, is a good example where people can make real money. If you can make thousands of dollars a month, or if that can— if that great information can completely change your financial situation, or if you're day trading or whatever it is spending $50 a month to have a Substack is nothing because when you compare it to the amount that you can make, it makes complete sense. But then things like entertainment, how much are people willing to spend on that?

Tommy: What do you think the future is for journalists? Because these, these outlets like news.com.au, and I mean, we just keep using that Um, but it's, uh, any TV station— 10, 9, 7— they all have Facebook pages. They all— all their journalists contribute in some way. They pull snippets from live television, post them, which all of that's done. Pedestrian sports, think about any sport, like news sport, all done. And so there is the flow-on effect, which is where you can start empathising for these companies. Because they'll start saying, but what about the young journos that don't have a shot anymore? There's no career for them. The Shepparton News, a local, you know, the radio station I work for in Shep, gone.

Josh: Well, this is the whole finite and infinite games thing. So the finite game is what Facebook has offered, and a bunch of news outlets, all of them, decided to play that game. That's not a game that's guaranteed. It's not forever. But this is the exact same thing's happening with Instagram with Reels. People don't like Reels more than they like posts or videos. Instagram is actively prioritising these things. This is completely, uh, thanks to the algorithm. This isn't everyone saying what I like these few seconds.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so, what we need to do as a whole community. This is more than just a single business thing. Uh, the unfortunate position is that it is too enticing to play the finite game, because if you're told as a business, which we are, you can have access to customers, you can have access to your audience. However, we need you to play this game. We need you to do real snappy content. We need you to dance. And when you dance, You need a point.

Tommy: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And fucking— so you have the stupid haircut. Yeah, exactly. Wear a little midriff.

Josh: So you have to play that game. If you play that game, you will get rewarded with people seeing that content, which will then mean that you're relevant. And then by being relevant, you can then sell. And this is, this is even the problem with Clubhouse. All of these— that social media, I think especially in 2021, is demonstrating exactly what is wrong. Because everyone who, who is actively playing on that, those platforms, are playing that finite game. And by playing that finite game, you have to sometimes go against your values. If you believe in deep conversations, is the best place to have a deep conversation on Instagram in a reel?

Tommy: That's Twitter.

Josh: But this is the thing, if, if it is, uh, if you're a company or a brand that's trying to have deep conversations, you have two choices. You can go on social media like Instagram and try and syphon some of that audience, try and get some attention, try and switch— do sort of a switcheroo, start with offering this quick stuff and then trying to, you know, move people along. But the problem is, how often does the transition happen? Facebook has been around for a very long time. Yeah, it's not every fucking brand has— this is the thing, the brands don't have these huge email lists. So we're incentivized to stay on, to keep going and play the finite game. And this is what's happened.

Tommy: And so you think, how, how is it? I mean, we don't know, but how was Facebook thinking this is a good idea? Well, if they, if their goal is play our game, the finite game, because we can change it up whenever we want. Most likely will keep you addicted and keep you coming back. But now they've said absolutely not. I mean, you said to me today that 4% of their revenue comes from news. From news. So meaning news outlets spending money on—

Josh: I'm guessing it was against news. So against news content, I guess.

Tommy: Okay, that's how they came up with that revenue coming through, which then they're saying we will turn that 4% off, we don't give a shit..

Josh: And this is because they've been put in a position where they're being told, hey, you have to pay us. And so, this is the problem. There's no real winners. The main winner is the audience who can now make a decision and say, okay, do I like what's happening here?

Tommy: Well, there's, you know, one of the polls on one of the news sites. That you had to source out by going directly there, said it was like, will you boycott Facebook? Yes or no? It was like—

Josh: But we don't, like, we actually as a community, I don't think we're very good at doing this. I think that the— That's what's the funniest thing about things like cancel culture and trying to keep people accountable. Is we turn a blind eye to the most obvious injustices, obvious, uh, inconsistencies in what we do. This is what's so ironic about the whole thing, is it's like we're on Facebook, we're on Instagram, and this is, this is the, the decision that even activists have to make. It's like, okay, we've got to be where everyone else is. But at the same time they're doing the, the same— before you know it, they're, they're pointing and dancing so they can do a reel.

Tommy: Just trying to get it to get my message out there.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And then you justify why you start playing that. And so, I mean, what our relationship— I've always said to you, like, do you reckon people are actually fucking thinking in the sense of I'm playing the game? Like, a lot of people get sucked in, next minute they're fucking you know, doing the TikTok dance, and they're like, whoa. Like, they might not even acknowledge that they've had to play it in that way, or because they've been drip-fed a bit of cocaine, a bit of that, you know, that hit, and they're like, this is the best. Next minute, they're, they're all in on it. But you see half the creators on YouTube that have been around for 10 years or 5, you know, 5 years even, are saying this. They're like, don't get the new the new up-and-coming approach. Like, how many YouTubers with 10 million subscribers have pulled the pin? It's because they've all realised that even at that level, you're playing a certain game.

Josh: So if you get told, okay, if your thumbnail looks a certain way, if you start your content in this way, if you do this and you do that, for one, we've essentially homogenised creativity. So rather than it being all sizes, shapes, colors, different styles of content, they all start the fucking same. They're also like being on YouTube. If you want to be successful on YouTube, and this is the thing, like when Casey Neistat, the vlogger, he did a daily vlog for how long was it?

Tommy: A couple hundred days.

Josh: Yeah, over a year of doing daily content. And at that time, the algorithm was all about daily content. Didn't matter what it was, just posting every single day. Um, and so it's hard— it is hard, even though we play a bunch of these games, it's hard to have any sympathy for bigger media companies, uh, that have benefited from this, knowing exactly what the, um, Like, it's all very clear. Like, we've known about— And this is, I guess, this is the problem with Uber as well. This is the problem with paying for food, doing delivery in that way and knowing that if we do a delivery, if we get something delivered, that 30% of what that café is, you know, charging, 30% of it is going to Uber. Isn't that crazy? But then our habits, like, we have completely traded convenience for our values, for what's important.

Tommy: Yeah, because most people would say, I want the restaurant to have, you know, they've put in 100% of the effort almost. I mean, you know, depends on the guy riding the bike.

Josh: But the thing is they charge a delivery fee on top of that.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: So, they— Yeah. And this is the thing, it always starts off. Um, and this is why it's all so dark. You look at the big tech, it always ends up going in one direction. So if you look at where— direction, yeah. And if you look at where— for the shareholders, if you look at where Facebook started, it was a free-for-all. You would— every single person would see it. But then there's a time where that doesn't make business sense anymore. It's the same thing that's happened with Uber. When Uber started, Uber Eats, it was super low price, free delivery, uh, for a bunch of time.

Tommy: On board.

Josh: And then, yeah, and then all of these things start happening. Then it's like, hang on, uh, this is what pisses me off about Uber Eats. They'll have— they'll say, okay, um, you're paying $3 for delivery, but what they'll also do— so you're paying full price for delivery then they tell some other gronk, hey, do you want to get in on this person's delivery? But then sometimes they'll fucking— many times they'll deliver the food to the other person first. Yeah. And so, it's like, it's not helping the restaurants.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: It's purely helping Uber and it's fucking the customer experience. And so—

Tommy: God, you will order Uber Eats tonight. I can tell you that much. It is. I mean, think about all the social media gurus yelling, your, your business has to be on Facebook, or you have to, like, or you have to be on social media. Like, that's just one part of Facebook's plan that can have people, people echoing that. And then all the people that do, you know, sit there just scrolling, and then the money that's being made. It is a mess. I wonder if it will if people will. I mean, if another option comes up, people will just take that, the easier option. The thing is, they're so addictive.

Josh: What would you do to, like, what would it look like for you to completely give up social media?

Tommy: Um, I mean, just delete. Yeah, it's, it's a fun— I mean, how many times have we talked about this? It's almost like it's been decided upon for a lot of people, and maybe that's what it ends up needing. Like, so back to the game playing element of all of this. And I think where we haven't done well is play the game to some degree, get real slimy with it all, you know, get real clickbaity. Like, you see the people who have won just creating content, not because— I mean, you can tell yourself the storey that you like creating and making videos and doing fun, you know, video, like photos and shit. But some of these people have convinced themselves that, like, what you— all that you've said is— and so they've just embodied the process of how can I get attention, how can I get, you know, into people's feeds.

Josh: And so that's where I don't think we've played that game well, because if you look at the winners, do you aspire to be the winners of those games? And I don't. Nah, I look at— I look at— and this is—

Tommy: and everything's a story, but Uh, you're saying because when you look at winners, you're like, you're not there, so you're telling yourself a storey because you haven't been able to do what they have been able to do?

Josh: Yeah, like, I think that's, that's probably part of it. But I think that also people who are winning at these things have created a different storey to justify. So the thing is that it could be with it completely within their values. So you could tell a storey of, I believe in deep and meaningful conversations But what I also recognise is that the best way for me to change minds is to be where the people who need changing are.

Tommy: Um, well, you see the impact you can have on a small amount of people, uh, like a real impact, life-changing shit. Think about counselors, think about psychologists that work one-on-one, probably can, you know, only do what, like 5 appointments a day at max. Like, that seems like a lot, very draining. 25 appointments a week, but they can change 25 people's lives. And the, the difference in how you feel when you get the stimulation from a post that gets heaps of attention, heaps of comments, heaps of stimulus— not saying it's good, because I do think that changing someone's life over at an individual level is more powerful. But it doesn't feel as— maybe doesn't feel as rewarding. I can't speak for that industry, but like, I know when I have probably helped an individual over a bunch of stimulus that's come through from something I've posted, I'm more affect— I'm more— something more is going on from the social media hit than this individual. Like, I can feel, oh, that was nice. But then when you can be at home just fucking looking at like, oh, this person saying this. It's like, it's not good, I don't think, but it's highly stimulating.

Josh: I think like, uh, Cal Newport, who wrote Deep Work, calls it, um, shallow work. I think that it's like so easy to spend a lot of time in shallow work, and because it can feel like you're making progress like swiping, like we're wanting to see something new to think about. Like, you know, it's just this sort of constant thing. And just speaking to my own experience, I think of that, especially the reels. Like, I think that there's—

Tommy: We're going to do more reels?

Josh: No, like, I think the conversation, having had conversations with marketers, from people in this space, like, you're sort of, um, I think that there's going to be a lot of people who decide that that's not what they're willing to do. So if, like, because it's all samesies, it is like, if you watch, it has a certain style, a certain way of speaking, there's a cadence to how, you know, it's like the classic one is like, here's how the— this is how I made fucking— How many videos have you watched of that fucking feta pasta where they, you know, the one? And then people are like, oh, you know what? Like, I don't like feta, so I've made a new one. And like, it's— Yeah. That's a thing. So, now it's not just Reels, it's like if you want to do well, make your own feta pasta video. How many fucking videos do we need of making feta pasta? In all seriousness, don't you think it's outrageous? Like, oh, you know what? That's dumb. If I see one more fucking quesadilla where it's cut, where the wrap, where they look how like the fucking avocado on one side, chicken, and then you put it in the grill. Fuck off. How many of those do we need? How many? This is, this is the 2021 social media is Danos Direct if it was fucking user-generated content. Except what we're saying is the transaction is you make the feta pasta and you are relevant. If you like, it is the most absurd. Yeah. Who, who's it for? What's it for? Who are we connecting with? It is the biggest lie. Like, I haven't thought about it that much. This is fucking bullshit.

Tommy: I mean, I'm done with social media, into the works. Think about the people that started just fucking doing fucking dancing. Next minute they're fucking. Like legitimate swaying of values. Not saying everyone, maybe people are just like, yeah, I want to do porn, can't wait. Some people started dancing, ended up doing porn. And so, like, that's only—

Josh: that's another conversation, which is the equivalent of you start with IGTV and now you're on Reels.

Tommy: You know, like, optimize, optimize, optimize. It's all to make money. What does it all mean?

Josh: So the thing is that it can come across as a little bit sort of airy-fairy, maybe. So what we risk in this conversation is it coming across as the starving artists, the— and there's many, having gone to the VCA Film and TV, seen those departments, seeing how artists operate. There are 70% of people— this is going back 10 years— 70% of people in the class that I went to that didn't want to play the commercial game. They didn't want to do corporate work.

Tommy: They didn't want to, you know, just film that sort of film clips, low budgets.

Josh: Yeah. All budget goes to— yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: All budget goes to the film, to the lenses, you know?

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. All we want is we just want to be able to afford the lenses. And so, I don't want us to come across as, like, this isn't about anti-commercialism or anti-capitalism. This is about anti-sameness, anti-doing.

Tommy: Status quo.

Josh: Yeah. Just doing, like, we're essentially, this is, you think about The idea of, you know, it's the sci-fi stuff of putting in a chip. You know, it's like the vaccine, you know, fucking Bill Gates is putting something special in there so he can track us.

Tommy: Which you read that from Facebook on a 7 News.

Josh: Exactly. No, I think you told me about it. Conspiracy Jimmy. Yeah. But the thing is that the the glaring obvious thing, the thing that is actually happening, the control that these social media networks have on us around, if you just do this, then you'll be— And look at thumbnails. Look how long it was where we're like, fuck it, we're not doing the thumbnail. But then you start saying, well, maybe if we do Photoshop this thing onto this thing, it will. And then before you know it, it like—

Tommy: if you—

Josh: it looks great. If you watch a YouTube— if you watch, um, a video on how to be successful on YouTube in 2021, there'll be most videos that will tell you that you should spend as much time on the thumbnail and the title as you do on the video. They'll even say, don't come, don't start making a video until you have the thumbnail. And so, I just think we just need to be very wary of what it's doing. We need to feel that gut instinct that we have where it's like, this doesn't necessarily feel right or this feels like I'm just doing the status quo or trying to be like you cannot separate brands on social media anymore. It's just— there is just too many. And the other thing too is the democratisation of tools like Canva, which are great, also creates this same homogenization, which is template. Why? Like, guys, just template. There's only like 5 different options. Just template it.. And so, this is what ends up happening is it's just we've become this templated world where we're all essentially doing the same thing and we're all like best practises on all of these social networks to the point where— And we're winning. It feels like we're winning. And then we look around and we're like, I talk like an Instagrammer. My My content looks like a tra— Look at fucking travel. Look at Instagram, like travel content. You can scroll on and you'll see, and we've spoken about this, you'll look at someone who's got like drone footage used to be a thing, remember? Like, you know, you'd be able to stand out. You can go onto an Instagram account now that has 150 followers and they have the content that would have gained you a million followers. 6 or 7 years ago.

Tommy: Wrong timing.

Josh: But it's also, it's just the, it becomes really easy. It's got like, there is going to be a point even with this stuff that we do where it's just like, as things get more accessible, things get easier. And so you have to be up for changing. Yeah.

Tommy: You think people are thinking about the audience before themselves. Like, if you were to put the audience— and when people— when I say audience, you could have 150 Facebook followers and view that as your audience, which it kind of is. But you also— it also could be the audience you think you want in the future, or it could just be complete construction of in your head. I mean, the audience could just be who's on the receiving end of what you're creating, what are they going to think. And so that is your audience. And so Thinking— I see where it could be just some misalignment between the values of an individual and then some audience that they're manufacturing with thought, and then they're creating for that.

Josh: I think that it actually is more about needs, basic need. Like, I don't think we need likes, but somehow we've attached having a safe place to live, shelter, food, with these things. Because what we say is like, oh, you know what, um, we need to be relevant, we need to have a successful business, we need to have customers, we need to bring in revenue. And so then all of the things that connect up become that social network. And then so unfortunately the problem is that when we don't get many likes, I believe that the same fucking part in our brain that tells us we're going to starve starts to be triggered. And that's fucking a scary position. And the thing is that in the '90s, in the '80s, in the '70s, all the times before social media existed, our parents survived.

Tommy: Yeah, I know.

Josh: And had food, right? And they didn't have it. But in saying that, they had the Yellow Pages.

Tommy: Yeah, true. So I took out an ad in the Yellow Pages. Fuck, that makes me feel old.

Josh: Maybe We should maybe, let's just get some old-school advertising going on. This could be a PR opportunity. What about if we said podcast removes itself from all social media to focus on Yellow Pages?

Tommy: They don't exist here online, dude.

Josh: I don't think you can get a physical one.

Tommy: I don't know if they're doing physical anymore. Not sure it's worth their money. I legitimately, I'll vocalise this. I don't know how to completely articulate the thought that I did have, which was like, you know, moments where you have like a realization, you feel it, you feel in your body. But I was like, I was thinking about the things I've created and the sort of mission I've been on my part in the previous 10 years of my life, and it's all been very centred around stimulating my ego. And I, and I, that's as best as I can come up with But the feeling is just like, it was like shock in the moment. I've been doing a lot of meditation on self and, you know, um, the experience of self and consciousness and all that. And I've just— and I was like, fuck, like all of that shit is such stimulation and food energy for your ego. And that part of me that just desires that and wants that and fucking gets emotive about it, is like, that is your ego. That is my ego. I feel it. And so it's a— and I don't know where I land yet based on what it— what do you do on the other side of it?

Josh: Also, if that's been your operating system, you've surrounded yourself with people who think like you do. And so then having that conversation and saying, oh, I've decided I'm not gonna be on social media, or I'm just going to decide this, you're going to have a bunch of people who will encourage you to continue on the path that you're already on. That's been the thing, that's the big learning, is, um, as, as I've made big decisions in my life, uh, you need to realise that the people around you that are giving you feedback or they're giving you advice, giving you advice based on everything that you projected out into the world. And so this is, this is what we've, you know, you and I have spoken about. It's like the amount of people who want to give us advice in regards to business decisions we make, yet have no concept of what our profit and loss is what our balance sheet looks like. And so if someone's willing to give you some really solid advice about how to run your business and they're not your accountant and they're— or they, they don't know the inner workings, take it with a grain of salt.

Tommy: You gotta—

Josh: but many people don't. Like, it is very tempting.

Tommy: It's easy not to.

Josh: It's very easy to say Going, but it's easy not to.

Tommy: Yeah, because yeah, you want it half the time. Intentions for most people are somewhat right, or they think they're doing you a favor. And sometimes it feels good to be told something that isn't what your current situation—

Josh: What do you mean by that?

Tommy: Um, here's what you need to do, X, Y, and Z. Oh, I'm not fucking doing that. That's— And then you convince yourself that that is kind of what I need to be doing, only because it's just different from what you are doing.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I think it's not that it's right because all it is is thoughts coming into this person's head, them verbalising whatever they're thinking, and next minute it's fucking, it's, it's like scripture.

Josh: Well, it's, it's tempting to follow the advice around things that you're not good at. I think like Jason Fox has done a great job around this. Where things like productivity, uh, he pushes back on these concepts. And so, if you're a creative person and you feel like you're not that great at productivity, you're going to be willing to take people's advice. Think about sales. If you feel like you're not great at sales, you'll listen to people talking about sales, and it might not be great advice, but because it is the opposite of what you do, you might take it on. Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, there's no— I don't know the answer, and I haven't heard very smart people talk about anyone having the answer as to why something connects with them. So, it's like, why do I connect with a certain author in a moment in my life?

Josh: Do you connect with reels?

Tommy: You're on the reels. Um, do I connect with reels? I, in, in the sense that I get sucked in to the way you connect with cake. Yeah, I get sucked into cake. I just, if a slice is there and I know it's gonna taste good and I visually see it, I'm like, oh damn, that fucking cake's gonna taste good. And then I have a bite and I feel sick after it. I could watch 5 reels, sucked in. Here's what I did for breakfast. I woke up and I went down the street and I fucking saw a man and I go, today I'm having a coffee. The end. Next minute I'm like, oh yuck, I feel fucking— I've eaten 5 pieces of cake.

Josh: What about when you go to bed and there's like an urgency to quickly scroll through the rest of the internet before you're like, oh, you know what, maybe someone did post something that I need to— No, it's not there. No, that's because I'm on Instagram. I need to cheque LinkedIn. There is a notification. Oh, that's just telling me someone shared a post.

Tommy: It's fucked, dude. I think about sometimes when I'm trapped in a scroll hole, trapped in a scroll hole, and my son is in the room, my wife, the two people I love the most. But I'm in a scroll hole. Worse than a K-hole, dude. Can't get out of either of them.

Josh: What's a K-hole?

Tommy: K is a drug, horse tranquiliser. It makes you feel quite nice. I'm not saying you should do it. And K is a—

Josh: So, it's like getting into the—

Tommy: Yeah. And you can— It's bizarre. You can literally feel like you've disconnected from your body.

Josh: I'm trying to think of the documentary.

Tommy: People get stuck in a K-hole and they can't get out. It could be like 30 minutes. It feels like a long time. Anyway, scroll hole, similar.

Josh: I was watching a documentary that mentioned AMOL and I remembered. You've told me about that. Yeah. They called it anal.

Tommy: Yeah, maybe. I don't know.

Josh: I can't remember. Hi@thedailytalkto.com, if you remember that documentary. But he said about anal. Anal. Yeah, he said that he went to a club.

Tommy: I guess you don't call anal anal.

Josh: So, do you think it is anal or amal?

Tommy: Amal. Maybe it is amal.

Josh: I don't know. Oh, that's right. It got into how this guy started selling drugs. I think it was on that McDonald's doco. Oh, just an update on the McDonald's doco. Should have been 2 eps. It's 6.

Tommy: And so, it gets a really— It should have been one reel.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 30 seconds. Yeah.

Tommy: With— Guy Cohn's McDonald's. You could put it into a reel. Maybe you could start doing—

Josh: Binge video, like binge docos in a reel.

Tommy: 30-second recap.

Josh: This is not what we need. No, no, no.

Tommy: But you see the appeal. Josh, you could have it all, mate. You could have followers, money.

Josh: Do you remember cars? I know Instagram, like, I've created so many Instagram accounts. I have The Flat Lay, I think. Like, I had theflatlay.com and I was like, oh yeah, I'm just going to take photos of flat lays. What a boring, boring life. That's right. The Fake Famous by Nick Bilton.

Tommy: Doco.

Josh: Yes. Yeah. It's on Binge. It is. I can't help it.

Tommy: It just is.

Josh: Yeah. It's on HBO, I think. Anyway, Fake Famous, they take 5 or so, 4 or 5 people, average people who want to become famous and they turn them into Insta celebrities, basically. But they just buy followers. Okay.

Tommy: Yeah. Um, a couple of Melbourne—

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Numbers.

Josh: Exactly. And it's just a bit pathetic. And, uh, but the— I think that that's just an interesting, um, they talk about sort of setting up photo shoots, having to feel relevant, you know, trying to like going to, um, a gym, taking photos at a gym so that then you can try and sell yourself to try and get like Private PT sessions. Oh yeah, but you have to pay for the foot, like, you know, the, the shoot first.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: But, um, yeah, it was, it was directed by Nick Bilton, who did the, um, wrote the book Hatching Twitter. He's like an ex-New York Times technology reporter for sort of the early 2000s, like mid-2000s, when all the sort of social networks were coming up. It's, it's good too.

Tommy: I reckon there is some way. I mean, there is a life without all these things that we're talking about.

Josh: Yeah. And so, yeah, surely it seems very appealing, but I think that this is like, as we've sort of discussed, there's lots of change in the air. People are moving, they're sort of realising. I think 2020 was a good indication to people around like, oh, YOLO. Um, yeah, and also that this, um, uh, you know, we, we're all playing a version of a finite game, and COVID has fucked a lot of those games. And so then when you realise that, oh, hang on, like, I stopped doing this and life continues on, I think it's given permission for a lot of people to say, oh no, I'm I'm going to rebrand. I'm going to do this thing. I'm going to, I'm going to do that. I actually don't need social media. But the pushback is, uh, then what?

Tommy: Then what?

Josh: Then what? So you get off social media, it's not going to fix your problems. You're fucked.

Tommy: Are you better with it? Are you—

Josh: that has to be inclusion though, if you think I think the thing is that the— all of these things aren't your problem. And like, how we respond, how we react, like, we are— Instagram isn't telling us to do these things. We're telling it. Like, we are giving it that weight. And so, the problem is that unless we fully reconcile the empty bit that we're trying to fill, whether it be through ego or whatever it is, through these things. Until we fix that, we're still going to have an issue. We're just— we're going to get off social media, but we'll do—

Tommy: But even the term fix is like, maybe that— so we're assuming that something's broken.

Josh: Reconciling, I think.

Tommy: Yeah, because then, then there might not even be a place for this stuff, which has just meant that there's no you place no energy in, in that area, therefore it has no life in your life. It's— which is, yeah, it's just another way to look at it because then it will still continue to be what it is. And maybe there's less weight put on when, when people say like, um, Facebook isn't your problem, you— something going on internally to you. It's like, it is an addictive thing that is available to us. And so is heroin. Is heroin— heroin's not the problem, the person taking the heroin's a problem. No one would fucking say that. Heroin's a real problem. Yeah, Facebook, just based on what it is and how accessible, and it's, it's a serious drug. It's a serious addiction that people have. Social media, not just Facebook. And so they're— yeah, it's it's complex.

Josh: It's actually very hard. And then we try and meet the complexity by saying you just need balance. You know, the amount of time is—

Tommy: Yeah, IGTV Reels, do a few here and, you know, go between.

Josh: Yeah. But yeah, it's not as simple as balance. And it's— Yeah. I mean, this is part— Like, I think that this is part of like the whole self-discovery thing. Like, I'm sure, like, think about even, um, older people. Think about our parents. They don't give a fuck. Like, they just like social media, like, just scroll. Like, my parents have dinner just with their fucking iPads up. They've got iPad holders and just fucking scrolling. Just, you know what I mean? Like, they're just fucking flicking. Oh yeah, just saying. And just like, oh, you wouldn't believe, like, Josh is doing reels again. It's a weird thing.

Tommy: And so, if you're not, if this conversation seems completely foreign, which I think it would to a bunch of people, it probably is an indication that you're, well, okay, I'll pose it as a question. Is it an indication of being completely sucked into their game that they want you to play? Or is it just it's not really giving— someone's not giving as much thought as they— as we are?

Josh: Well, so it doesn't impact everyone the same way. I guess that's the— that like we all have our things. And I think that for us, this sort of world of if you're a content creator, this is like whether we liked it or not, we've sort of subscribed to play this game. Because unless you're in sort of the luxurious position of making long-form pieces where you, where you're a hermit and you've got, you know, food and all that, that sounds good.

Tommy: But well, if you— I think when we're looking at— so Barefoot's an example of a guy who has worked in the media for many years, wrote a book that became uber successful, the one of them probably the most famous financial education book in Australia. And we've had conversations with him, mate, you should get fucking— have a facey, get a facey. Like, you're not doing enough content. I mean, it's like you look at a guy like that who wasn't posting to Facebook, wasn't doing Instagram, it's, you know, any Twitter and you see such— you see that he could just start and have an audience, which is the obvious, right? But these people resist, resist, resist, and do an email list and a subscription model, and, and then pulls the pin completely on all of it. And so he doesn't do the subscription model anymore. I mean, he probably just made, you know, good money out of doing it and offering heaps and heaps of value. That's why something like his product was successful because it was of value to people. But that, if you're looking at him, is the 0.1% of people that make it.

Josh: I think we spend a lot of time comparing ourselves to massive outliers. And I think he's an outlier for sure. I sent you a— I'm just trying to find the—

Tommy: A reel. It was an hour ago.

Josh: No, no, it wasn't a reel. No, when I was watching, um, Real Talk with Josh Jensen. No, I think it was, uh—

Tommy: Oh, that's why, that's why Lewis Spiels. Lewis Spiels does something. Lewis Spiels, comedian. Yes, absolute fucking legend. Uh, go follow him on Instagram. He makes a lot of reels, but he has a thing called Real Talk. I didn't even put two and two together.

Josh: Oh, there's like real, real talk. No, it was— I can't find the message, but I think it was something like a million accounts on Instagram have—

Tommy: I'll read it to you.

Josh: Over a million followers.

Tommy: Yeah. Fun fact, over 40 million people have over a million followers.

Josh: Over 40 million. That's ridiculous.

Tommy: Over 40 million.

Josh: And then how many, how many over—

Tommy: Over 100 million people —have over 100,000 followers. Yeah.

Josh: So, what does that tell you? I think about this with houses and shit. Look at all the—

Tommy: It's not many people, though.

Josh: Sad. Are you fucking kidding?

Tommy: In terms of the population. So, if you— The pop— I mean, but not all the population is on these platforms. It'd be better to look at. So, 40 million people have over 100 million followers. How many users Do Instagram have? 500 million.

Josh: Or now it's over.

Tommy: Yeah. Okay. I didn't ask the question the right way, but if you look at that and then look at 40 million people of that number, what is it? I don't know if there's billions of people on the planet. And so, I mean, it is a lot of people. Yeah. We know a handful of people that have over a million. And so, it's like it, that's where it's more, it's It's more attainable than being Tom Cruise. Yeah. Anyway.

Josh: Well, it's The Daily Talk Show. If you've got any thoughts on it, hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address.

Tommy: You can tell that we're not necessarily rammed to one side of the debate. It is something that we constantly talk about, social media. You've probably heard us talking ad nauseam.

Josh: One about Apple reviews. What was it? No one gives a fuck about the algorithm. Stop talking about it. It's boring.

Tommy: Well, I think everybody who just got cut from Facebook. Yeah. Cares about the algorithm.

Josh: But also, the business is— Yeah. Yeah. I think so many people care. I think the thing is that it's—

Tommy: You might not know you care about the algorithm.

Josh: But when you're furious about why you're getting shown, you know, less fucking I think that's literally the person who also says a bunch of other things. Oh, sure.

Tommy: So, it's not the algorithm, it's them. Exactly.

Josh: Enjoy your day, guys. We'll see you tomorrow.

Tommy: Have a good one. See you guys.