New Media & Content Consumption

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 905.

Josh: Happy Fat Friday, Gronks! What's happening? What's going on?

Tommy: So, uh, you suggested this one today.

Josh: Well, I can't take credit for it. Jess Lucas, she has, um, sent me an Instagram DM a few days ago with an article to McDonald's releasing a brand new McFlurry.

Tommy: It's a doughnut project.

Josh: It is. This is, it is a doughnut ball McFlurry. It also has in it hot fudge sauce and Oreo bits.

Tommy: It's perfect. I'm smelling it now. It smells like cinnamon donuts.

Josh: Oh, it smells like the South Melbourne Market as a kid. Mum would get me a full bag, full bag of cinnamon donuts.

Tommy: Smells a little bit like—

Josh: Freshies.

Tommy: Yeah, or like your, um, local doughnut shop. Okay, can we start?

Josh: Cinnamon's versatile, isn't it? I mean, you put it on savory, sweet.

Tommy: Okay, here I go.

Josh: Teas. If he's going a whole ball, get that ball into you, son. Mm-hmm. Good. Happy with that.

Tommy: It's a great product.

Josh: Happy with the texture of the donuts. That's where it would fall over because They've tried and tested the Oreo McFlurry, and, um, and hot fudge on it is only an additional winner. Hey, look, it's not all about McDonald's though, Josh. Uh, if there's one reason for you to venture out of your house in the coming weeks for some personal time, I think it's to visit Shoppo, Doncaster Shopping Centre. Your—

Tommy: what's going on at Shoppo?

Josh: Dude, they have done a renovation on the food court. There is now two food courts. This is top-level food court, high-end restaurants, like cook— like, you know, those like, I don't even know the name of it, where you have like a hot plate in the middle and you can actually cut up your own stuff, chuck on your own meats. Never been. Hence why I don't know the name of it.

Tommy: Like a Korean barbecue sort of thing?

Josh: Yeah, yeah. They've got that and then they've got probably 4 or 5 other high, high-end restaurants. These were packed. Bodhi and I went the other day.

Tommy: Is it near Village Cinemas upstairs?

Josh: Upstairs, but they've completely renovated the joint. So, when you walk in, TGI Fridays has an outdoor area where you can, you know, dine and indoors. It is pumping. Like, We went on Melbourne Cup Day, Bodhi and I went for a little adventure, and then he said, "Shopping centre's open!" And so we— I cut across traffic line to get in there, and we went.

Tommy: Were you not planning on going there?

Josh: No, we were going somewhere else, and then he spotted it and just— it was a— there's one.

Tommy: What was the parking like?

Josh: I got one within 2 seconds. Oh, that's good. Sick. I was very like, I do, I do always think when you get somewhere and get somewhere quickly, you get a park quickly, that could have been the difference of this being a nightmare day.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: And a horrible experience at a shopping centre versus— I feel like the stars have aligned at that point. And you start looking for those moments. You just, you know, it's God's on my side. You just go full Kanye on it, you know.

Tommy: This McFlurry is great. Talking about Kanye, Uh, Kim Kardashian West is on David Letterman's Netflix series. Have you seen this?

Josh: It's so good. I really like Kimmy K.

Tommy: Yeah, did you watch the, um, this— how, how crazy was the CVS integration?

Josh: Yeah, do you think— are you saying from a brand perspective, or that—

Tommy: yeah, like CVS must have paid big bucks to have that. Yep, I think they would have funded that, that whole episode.

Josh: Well, I like it. It's like an interview show, sit down, cutting between them doing some activity. Robert Downey Jr. there feeding his pets on his Malibu farm. Kim Kardashian wouldn't let them in the house but would only do a brand deal at CVS.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, that's— I assume that's what it was. But yeah, it was interesting. She spoke about the, um, you know being held, uh, at gunpoint for, um, for her jewelry. That was a bit hectic. Full on.

Josh: She, she's, she's a smart woman. I think you're forced to think about how much money they're managing as a family and the business and the interest, where there's like no hiding for them growing old on a reality show. And so what they're deciding to put out, she had some really interesting perspectives. How was Kanye West in the audience?

Tommy: Yeah, just with his blue hoodie, sunglasses. I mean, I don't know, I feel like, uh, Mr. 97 would agree here on this one. David Letterman, I don't think he's that great of an interviewer, of a comedian. Don't you think? For a guy who's been doing it for a really long time. Yeah, I understand that it's sort of schtick. But at the same time, it's just— there's a lot of, uh, awkward moments.

Josh: Well, if you— to look at a— if you were to compare from— so I guess you can only really compare from, uh, night show hosts or, or, or show hosts, right?

Tommy: Because they're all a bit awkward, aren't they?

Josh: Jimmy Fallon. Yeah, like, I, I kind of— you either like their version of awkward. I mean, Conan O'Brien, Jimmy Fallon. Yeah.

Tommy: Ellen DeGeneres. Isn't that awkward? She's probably one that's, you know, sort of— Yeah, I just get the vibe when I watch these things where there's maybe too much awareness. Maybe it's the big audience as well.

Josh: Well, I think he doesn't— He's not bad in respect to his peers. At that level. Yeah, I think where is he seen as a comedian? Because then you look at Dave Chappelle and you go, well, because David Chappelle was on his Netflix series just recently, and you should hear the kindest words from Dave Chappelle about what it meant as a young comedian to be on a show like David Letterman. And, and then that's where it's like, I don't think we're not talking about having respect for what he's achieved. He's done so much. He's the guy that started a show and he thought it would be cancelled in a week, and next minute he's— it's the biggest show of that time, one of the biggest shows of that time. Jay Leno was another one. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's where they fall into.

Tommy: I don't think they're comedians as such, but, but even as interviewers, like, when you watch it, are you like, this is, this is the best interview?

Josh: His one with Dave Chappelle was really good.

Tommy: Which I think it comes down to this mutual respect thing, right? Because there is this sense of, okay, you need to build rapport quickly. And so, on stage they're trying to be sort of best friends. I feel like Oprah does a really good job with interviews.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. Just, well, it's because she gives away cars and then everyone forgets what's happened. But like driving.

Tommy: But there is like that little bit of sort of, yeah, there's the awkwardness and then also, The reversal of things too, like in the Kim Kardashian conversation, he was sort of almost apologising for some of the things that, or sort of the way that she was treated by people like him. Yeah, I just thought, yeah, it was an interesting watch though. Definitely worth checking out on Netflix.

Josh: I mean, the game of landing a 45-minute, I mean, they probably filmed for an hour and a half. And then they've cut it hard to land a solid show. This is where, like, he talks about just being so laser-focused, like the, you know, the blinkers on. And, and it affected his other areas of his life. Like, he was an alcoholic, had to quit drinking. Like, they're all kind of like highly, highly motivated, laser-focused individuals that are in a cutthroat industry where Everyone's looking. I couldn't handle it.

Tommy: Not many people, like, not many people that are having those roles. You can count on two hands how many people have gotten to that point when it comes to talk shows. But I just think that it's, um, you even see Kim talks about, uh, you know, the lack of understanding or knowledge of, of Dave, uh, David Letterman, which is sort of a funny moment. Like, he is old school.

Josh: Yeah, I think there's— Ryan John really loves him, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, but then it's like, you call Ryan John the game show host, it makes the sense of like he's aspirational for a period of time, not as much now. I kind of, I kind of probably resonate with him more now. Yes, yes, his old stuff, because he is like a fumbling older guy. Yeah, that's trying to work out the new landscape and he's a bit a bit out of it. And so that's— it's— isn't that funny? You become more relatable as you become less equipped for the time, for the current time.

Tommy: I think part of it is that he's had to, like, to be— to remain relevant. But there are a bunch of people who are, or would be considered, that sort of modern celebrity that really want to get in that talk show game, like, um, David Dobrik. He's always spoken about wanting to host a late night show.

Josh: Yeah, I'm sure he's the kind of guy that would when he's got 20 million. Isn't that— sorry, as I say that, he's got 20 million subscribers. He has a late night— just film at night at your house and you have a bigger late night show than any talk show host in the world.

Tommy: But it's the whole network thing, right? Like, it's, it's about being on NBC or CBS or being on, you know, one of those big networks and having the, you know, dressing up in a suit. But even there is the, um, I mean, you'd love it.

Josh: You don't have to think about what you're wearing because David Letterman said, I didn't think for 20 years about what I'd have to wear. Yeah, that's nice. And then he rocks up in some daggy number to the Chappelle interview. He says that.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. I wonder what the, uh, I feel like this format, podcasting This is perfect for me. I feel very lucky that I've grown up in a time where this is the first thing.

Josh: Yeah, what will it become?

Tommy: What will—

Josh: will podcasting be the David Letterman thought that we're having?

Tommy: Okay, so look at, um, look at things like— so, so when it comes to modern talk shows, look at like a Hot Ones, the chicken wing show. Yeah, there's an example of a modern talk show, but it's actually really good interviews. But there's heaps of people that are trying to be like the Howard Sterns, like even Logan Paul, that style of show, sort of. There is, or even H3H3, their podcast. Yeah, there's, um, yeah, a lot of examples where people are obviously taking inspiration. I think that For us, I definitely have looked at, you know, Howard Stern's, you know, whichever way you sort of see the content that he, he does or how you sort of reconcile that. He was, he was very sort of revolutionary when it comes to multimedia production. So having a show that was rating extremely well within the context of radio, but then they were doing a TV format as well. So they would be filming the episodes and creating content for the E channel.

Josh: Yeah. And then there's people now that have no idea who, uh, someone like Stern is. Yeah, Stern is, which is crazy because, I mean, he's— he has a huge audience. I guess it's— you don't need everyone knowing who you are, you just need to select a few people. But I guess that's where some of these older styles will stay around because people like David Dobrik have built something in a new way. So the vlogs and the YouTube, then it gives him the power to influence the style. And so Logan Paul doing his talk show style, you know, on his flying V desk where it's, you know It gives it— it— he, he's controlling what type of shows getting put out to his people.

Tommy: It's what sort of content are you watching? Like, um, remember how many vlogs we used to watch going back 5 years or 4 years? Are you watching many vlogs in 2020?

Josh: Uh, no, I kind of go in and out of just checking to see what um, what, what is actually going on. So there's like— have you heard of those DeGuglio— fuck, I forgot their name— the, the most famous TikTok girls, sisters. TikTok sisters. TikTok sisters. They have their own channels. Dixie D'Amelio is the older sister of TikTok's biggest star, Charli. Um, so they, they Their dad is their CEO, and these two have just blown up on TikTok. But now they have YouTube channels. Now they're doing interview shows on their YouTube channels.

Tommy: What's their content like? Have you watched it?

Josh: Yeah, it's not for me. I think one of them lives in that Hype House. Do you know what the Hype House is? No. Oh, Jason Dundas. Shout out to Jason over in LA, um, holding down the fort with Dundas Media. He's, um did an interview with one of the girls who lives at the Hype House. This is a—

Tommy: is it like a Team 10 sort of thing?

Josh: 4-story mansion in LA in the Hollywood Hills, and there's like 17 kids living there. Hype House LA. And so this is where they create— oh, it's got a photo of it. It's got the exact— I'll give you the 6425 Weed Lake Drive, Los Angeles. Like, it's literally just in Google, Hype House. You can see it, it's ginormous.

Tommy: How long have they had it for?

Josh: I think it's been around for quite some time. Los Angeles Hype House, the physical location of a new content creator collective, is a Spanish-style mansion perched at the top of a hill on a gated street in Los Angeles. Uh, it's got a pool, enormous kitchen, dining, living squares. Okay, so it's actually— Hype House is the physical location. And then there's people come in and out of it and they live there. They live there, they create content. Oh my God, newyorktimes.com. I'm looking at this, just all these pimply-faced 18-year-olds doing selfies in their living room. It's bizarre.

Tommy: It sort of reminds me of, uh, remember that book that I got, the photo book, um, the, uh, Generation Wealth? But that— it was like a gold book that I got, I got delivered to the office. It's got all these old photos from the '90s. It's great. There's all these rich kids, including the Kardashians and, you know, the Hiltons. It's, it's really interesting. But it reminds me of a lot of this sort of stuff, which is just like a scene, because I guess that— is that the scene Now, like, TikTokers going to restaurants and—

Josh: Well, no, there's a steakhouse in LA where TikTokers have overrun it. TikTok Steakhouse LA. And so they're all going there to get, you know, BOA, Bower, Bower Steakhouse is the eatery of choice for LA's TikTok scene. And so, I mean, What it does is those— I mean, that, that restaurant I've known for ages. I'd never been there, but it's, but it's been very popular. But they would be— I guess they're helping some businesses. What a weird thing. Imagine being in that as a 17 or 18 year old kid. Like, for me, in there would have been horrible. But I think some of them, maybe they're like actually really focused on creating content. They don't drink that That's what I hope the situation is, that they're actually just—

Tommy: it's just not partying all the time, but they have to—

Josh: good-looking nerdy content creators. Like, they're just obsessed. But I don't know, do something to your ego for a little while.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. I wonder also with the, um, with where everything's going, whether there'll be more sort of a distributed media landscape where it's— everything's not just coming out of Hollywood or you know, these big, you know, Howard Stern out of New York, or like, it's sort of New York and Los Angeles for the longest time have sort of been the place to be for those.

Josh: But then you hear, so Dave Shapiro, Ben Shapiro, The Daily Wire, I think that's his business, or he's moving to Tennessee, or where did he move to? Their business makes nearly $20 million a year. He just, he just referenced that. He's by saying we're removing our revenue that we're making, $20 million a year, to moving to wherever he's going out of the state. But that's a big business, and you don't know where that is from. Yeah, like it's just a set. They build out these sets, and it's all about politics and talking, talking shit.

Tommy: But that's what has been the biggest sort of scam with all of this stuff for so long, is that we have thought that you have to be in these major cities to be able to do this stuff. But thanks to, in some regards, the pandemic, people working from home, it's like, ah, like it's fascinating to think about the late night shows, how long they were just doing poor quality content from home rather than doing a really high production value offering at home.

Josh: And you know how much pain they were in, the production team. If a network that pays their hosts, you know, $20, $30 million a year is putting out Zoom quality content, yeah, it's a bit annoying. You know, something's gone pear-shaped. There's a bit of budget needed to be pulled.

Tommy: Well, one interesting thing is that, um, we haven't seen a streaming platform yet doing talk show content.

Josh: Um, Netflix feeding it in.

Tommy: Well, yeah, so think about it, like, what— where would you go? Potentially in the States there's things like Hulu. I'm not sure what the deal is with that, but there's no real sort of solution that we have right now that plays into sort of that daily talk show content. Like, where does that sit, dude?

Josh: It's annoying, but Spotify I've been enjoying. The experience of watching Joe Rogan. Like, sometimes I've just wanted to listen to it and I've clicked onto him through Spotify, just trying to get myself into that pattern when they remove it from podcasting— the podcast app, other podcast apps. And you literally press on it, swipe up, watching the video. I'm going, you know, close it, put it in my pocket, jump in the car, it's still playing in my ears.

Tommy: Well, there's no doubt they're doing a good job. Like, Spotify are leaders in the space. But the problem is that when you have a monopoly, or when you have a few, or when we all think that this is going to be the savior— I mean, YouTube, to a certain degree, they seem to be— I feel like that's an untapped opportunity because they have had with premium the ability to, you know, get out of the, um, the video and have audio only. Um, I think potentially even— I can't remember one of the big streamers, I think maybe Netflix is bringing that feature as well, being able to just listen.

Josh: But it seems like they want the, they want the experience to be— think about what is the content on their documentaries, films, specials. It's like once they start entering into allowing you and I to have our own Netflix, Netflix channel, they're in trouble.

Tommy: I mean, so there's, uh, there's an article that I, that I was reading, uh, just the other night about what Spotify is doing with their royalties. Uh, so Spotify, uh, giving musicians the opportunity to reduce, uh, I'll just, I'll just read an actual quote. This is from The Next Web. Um, uh, last night the streaming company announced a tool that allows artists to get more reach in exchange for lower royalty rates. Spotify says artists or record labels can choose the song they want to promote, and this is quoted from Spotify: In this new experiment, artists, labels can identify music that's a priority for them, and our system will add that signal to the algorithm that determines personalised listening sessions. This allows our algorithms to account for what's important to the artist. Perhaps a song that they're particularly excited about, an album anniversary they're celebrating, a viral cultural moment they're experiencing, or other factors they care about. So what, uh, Spotify is saying here is take less. We're not going to give you the royalties, the same royalties that you normally get, in exchange for us doing a little tweaking of the algorithm and pushing the music to people. And so what we're seeing here is— this is the concern that we've— I've got with the podcasting. This is the concern with, uh, us putting all of our eggs in one basket. This— is this good for artists? Is this good for creators?

Josh: Yeah, fresh creators, young creators, maybe not. Most likely not. Definitely not. Like, that's it.

Tommy: So then how do you, um, yeah, so how do you, how do you get ahead? How do you, um, you know, and so these are the things. I mean, I don't think it's on the scale of, uh, wariness. Like, it's, it's not a huge issue, but what this says, what this shows, is a willingness for companies like Spotify just to, oh, you know, get paid less and we'll tweak a few things. And I think that at its core, it's worrying. And then you think about what that could mean for podcast.

Josh: It's putting more profit in the company's pocket.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: It's— you're paying to advertise your music. They're paying their own.

Tommy: It's not even advertising though, is it? It's actually— it's a next step. It's saying, hey, you want to, um, you you want to get into the Spotify radio stuff, just pay your way.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Uh, and so yeah, there's— I think that it's, it's a little bit problematic, but I do wonder what will be the way that we all consume content when we get back into driving our cars, you know, doing our long trips or being in the, um, uh you know, being in traffic going to work. What's our solution going to be?

Josh: I was— one of the things on YouTube I was watching was, um, this guy who was just talking about features in his Tesla. He's like this young, youngish guy. I don't know where he got the money from. He doesn't seem like he's really wealthy, but he's dropped like $80K on a good— specced out, specced out car, electric car. But God, I enjoy his little videos about This is, you know, this is how you open the thing. This is how you close all the doors. Here's all the— here's top 3 features that I hate in my Tesla. This shouldn't be here, this should be over here. It's like, I wanted a Tesla by the end of it, really did.

Tommy: And the other thing is that there's going to be other companies that are going to move more and more into this space as well. So device handover, going from your home, going to the car, it being a seamless, uh, experience. But, you know, when I think about Australia, how many Australians do we have that are at the forefront of digital content? How many, how many vloggers do we have in Australia?

Josh: God, it's weird because I don't get pushed any of the Australian ones. Alex Hayes, I don't know, there's a few, but it's because they're knocking around in social circles that I see their stuff through Instagram or something.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so no, there's no— there's nothing to the degree of Logan Paul or David Dobrik in Australia at all, unless they're niched. So their audiences might feel super engaged, but not to the masses like the Logan Pauls of the world.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, the, the algorithm stuff is interesting too, because even with our show, we've turned on uh, mid-rolls in YouTube. So if you're watching on YouTube and you don't have premium, you'll get an ad. And the crazy thing is that I've noticed since doing that, our podcast is appearing way more in the recommendation— in the recommended section in YouTube, which it makes sense from a business perspective. What it's saying is it's like, hang on, if we have all of this content do we want to show a video that's got no mid-roll that we can't make money off as a company, or do we prioritise within our algorithm to show people content that has the most amount of ads that we then make a, make a profit from? And so I think that the answer will be a real mixed bag. I think that what we could do is have a direct to listener, direct-to-audience solution. So I can imagine in the next 2 years there's a way to support the Daily Talk Show but then also potentially not, you know, deal with ads if you, if you choose. A bunch of those different things. But hopefully innovation happens in this space in the open way, in the, you know, in sort of the open web sense rather than just all of us jumping on to a proprietary solution.

Josh: And then everyone won't think about— not everyone, but there'll be a lot of people that will never think about that and just do what feels the easiest, like opening Spotify and seeing the video. Like, that's all I'm talking to is like, yeah, the ease. I didn't even think about watching the video and I'm watching the video.

Tommy: And so that's the thing of, you know, governments So the government, you know, has restrictions around how much— or, you know, expectations around how much local content there needs to be if you've got, um, you know, a radio frequency, things like that. And those things don't exist for these big tech companies. And so what does that mean? What is the— what does it mean for the, the content that we consume? What does it mean for our local media industries? What does it mean to culture? Are we just sort of— is there a huge sort of homogenization happening where, yeah, like you can't distinguish, you know, between Australian culture and American culture because we're just all consuming that content?

Josh: Or you're watching so much American content, you live in America, that you think there's nowhere else outside of America.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: It is the country, it is the world. Imagine if they started doing something like the Fame Lotto where they like—

Tommy: you put 15 minutes of fame sort of thing.

Josh: Yeah, that vibe where they just get absolutely the floodgate open, some algorithmically on YouTube where they just push you into everything everywhere for something. And so I mean, that's the reality. They could absolutely make or break somebody, probably break their mind, but it doesn't mean that it would stick after it. But it's like, it is the classic 15 minutes of fame. It's like a period in time. I don't think they're going to do it. I think people are trying to win the fame lotto by posting and hitting or playing to an algorithm, right?

Tommy: Like playing to what is going to be served up, what is our thumbnail, all of these different elements. Um, yeah, I remember in 2011 I worked on a film called Fat Sick and Nearly Dead where I was the community manager, and I contacted YouTube and ended up at YouTube in Google Australia in Sydney, and we organised for— it was a feature-length documentary, it was on Netflix in the US at the time, and we wanted to push it out to as many people as possible in Australia.. And so for 48 hours, uh, the, the film was on the home page of YouTube. They had something called— I don't know if it still exists— it was called Spotlight, and it just had that video. And so the thing is, that's a lot of power. There's a lot of power in, um, you know, being able to flick some switches. And so I don't know what the answer is, because as consumers, we obviously want the thing that is best for, um, the experience. Like, what is the user experience?

Josh: What's easy? What feels good?

Tommy: Yeah. And this is the problem with content in general at the moment, is it's like, for me to be able to watch the content that I want to watch, it is an absolute pain in the ass.

Josh: Yeah, well, you got to go to the dark web because it's so far right.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, this is a bit seriously, like, the, the issue around licensing.

Josh: What are you watching? Hang on, wait, what are you watching?

Tommy: Well, it's all that now. It's like all the, um, Everything from the CNN sort of like, so the news sort of streaming stuff, or, you know, there's so much content, even like films and TV. There's, it's so sort of fragmented. It, you know, it's not, you know, all these deals, all these exclusivity deals, it's forcing us to have Disney+, have Apple TV+, have Stan, have Netflix. Have DocPlay, have CuriosityStream. Like, no joke, how many— Who the hey you? Yeah, yeah. And this is the thing, like, there is just so many, and I'm just always shocked at how hard it is to get the content that I want in an easy form. And the problem is licensing. So, the problem is that someone makes something in the US That, you know, Australia seems like this, you know, far away place, and so they sell the distribution rights. And so they're like the, the people who— the studios that made it, they sell it on to someone else to, to look after. And so then they make a heap of money through that. So then they have to protect it, so they have to protect from a licensing, uh, perspective. And so Yeah, I feel like we've got so many old-school layers.

Josh: I tell you what was easy when you just wanted to watch something like Oz, which was this show about jail, and you couldn't get it anywhere in Australia. It's probably 2000 and 2004, and I went on eBay and I found the box set. It was obviously a rip-off version, but I got it from overseas and It came and it was like in a book, like hardcover, open it up and it had all the sleeves. And I got like 4, whatever, the full seasons, all seasons of this show called Oz, which, um, which I mean it was—

Tommy: And did it play?

Josh: Did it, um, because the thing is the regions, um, yeah, no, I went back, I checked my regions, I checked my regions, didn't know what it meant, but I checked for the right one. And my DVD player played it. So I watched Oz. But I mean, that was— that's the thing, when back in the day, like, that show's probably on one of the streaming services now, years and years later. Like Dave Chappelle's show, The Chappelle Show, is, is just been licenced to Netflix. I wonder how much money's been made there.

Tommy: Well, the thing is, this is like talking about the Howard Stern stuff. He was on terrestrial radio, so he was just on the radio that you tune in. And then, uh, SiriusXM is a satellite service. So think about like, um, cable or, you know, cable TV but radio, and where you have to have a subscription. And SiriusXM paid a huge amount of money, $100 million, to get Howard on their network because the thing is he had built an audience. And so he ended up reducing his audience in a big way But everyone that listened were paying subscribers. And so that's the, um, and I guess this is happening. You look at something like Spotify, and so what they'll say is they'll say, we're not charging, we're not like, we're not charging for you to listen to the, to the podcast. And it's, that goes back to this thing, if you are not paying for the product, you are the product. And so what this means, this adds You're not only getting fed ads, but also Spotify can be like, okay, what do we— let's tune this up. What do we want them to see? Is Spotify going to be sure— if, if we create a narrative that you can get every podcast on Spotify, think about how much of our experience— how often when you go on Instagram do you actually go to individual people's profiles? How often are you actually doing that versus having the algorithm push you and say, hey, yeah, yeah, cheque out this person or this person? Like, the algorithm is controlling what we're thinking about. And so the transaction that we're making is it's like, hey, get this content for free, but then eventually we're going to control what you listen to, whether you, whether you know it or like it. And the thing is that you, you won't even know it because you'll say, ah, I just saw this thing 'Or this thing just came up,' but this is, this is being, this has been created by a machine. This is, which is connected to someone who's, you know, tweaking things to make sure that they can make the most amount of money. And yeah, I think that there's, there's huge risks that we need to worry about.

Josh: Huge danger. Try for a moment, maybe you do this, but when you're on YouTube, don't don't look at anything it suggests you, or the discovery tab. And then you get to— I've been doing that, trying to consciously do that. I'm like, fuck, I don't have to think about what I'm typing into the search. Yeah, but then you start to type something in that you're thinking that you can come up with, not what they come up with.

Tommy: It's—

Josh: but you realise the friction in that moment that they've solved, which is, don't worry, I got this.

Tommy: Not only— but not only that it's still going to, um, even if you search, yeah, they're controlling the search results.

Josh: Exactly.

Tommy: So if you type in Seth Godin, Spotify will just show you a Spotify original with Seth Godin in it. This is the, this is the problem. There's no way. And so I think that the only— what is a solution is just being diversified in our approach. It's, it's the same reason why the convenience of Amazon and all that sort of thing, it's all well and good, But there is still a case for we need to be shopping local, we need to be supporting local, we need to be doing all those sorts of things.

Josh: Well, we've done that today. We've shopped at our local—

Tommy: yeah, yeah, yeah. Uber Eats and McDonald's. Absolute fucking hypocrites.

Josh: Local franchises.

Tommy: We should do it. Maybe why don't we set that challenge? Why don't we do Fat Fridays? Yeah, uh, from now until the end of the year, it's Fat Fridays local.

Josh: Yep.

Tommy: And we're actually paying for it. It's not like we're fucking going out asking small businesses to give us fucking free stuff because we pay for our McFlurry. So let's—

Josh: Yeah. So does that mean what about like if it is a— So Subway's off? Subway, you can't.

Tommy: Subway's off. Yeah.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: It's more just like boutique, like Harry's Milk Bar or, you know, whatever the—

Tommy: Exactly.

Josh: Great. Love it.

Tommy: All right, everyone. Enjoy your Friday. If you like the show, please give us a review on Apple Podcast. We love seeing them. Also, share on Instagram. What I'd recommend is maybe screen grabbing the podcast app you're watching with the Daily Talk Show playing, write something nice, tag us up.

Josh: Let someone fall into our rabbit hole.

Tommy: Exactly, we'd appreciate that. Otherwise, uh, enjoy your day. We'll see you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one. See you guys.