The No Banter Barber

Josh: The Daily Talk Show. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 895.

Tommy: What is happening, Gronks? What's going on? Happy Tuesday. Happy last day of lockdown in Melbourne.

Josh: Now I'm going to say something extremely controversial.

Tommy: Oh, keep us locked down.

Josh: Well, it's not polit— it's, it's, it's not political. It's got nothing to do with COVID Great. But I'm not ready to come out of lockdown. I think I just need a few more weeks.

Tommy: It's— You want the ease out, the lockdown ease out.

Josh: Yeah, I think we could do one day a week, like, let's avoid social interaction still. I have a little bit of anxiety with the— That everyone just assumes now like we have to be social. I've never gone out. Why am I having to? Like, it was like, yeah, we're gonna go to the pubs. It's like, I didn't do that beforehand. I understand.

Tommy: I think it's the choice. Having the choice there is the thing. You become Dictator Dan when you— when we've got a— I mean, if you're telling everyone else they have to do one day, it is—

Josh: Sure.

Tommy: It's individual. But no, I appreciate it. Like, I think what you're saying is spot on. Like, do the ease back in. You don't want to, you don't want to come out the gates and then actually, uh, become a hermit when you aren't forced to become a hermit, you know. Like the, the, uh, the repercussion of opening up hard and Josh Jantzen leaving his house and him resorting to living in, um, you know, moving to Tasmania next week.

Josh: Yeah, I would, I would. I mean, I just— do you feel it at all? Do you feel this Like, to be honest, I get literally, uh, Bree and I went for a walk this morning and she's like, okay, we'll go to, you know, how are you feeling about it? I was like, well, I just, we've got meetings now. Like, I planned in an in-person meeting for in like a, in a week's time or something. And the, um, uh, I thought that it would be cancelled, to be honest. And so now I need to like prepare for that. I need to buy clothes. I can't wear tracksuit pants and the Daily Talk Show hoodie to a meeting. So, I actually need to go and buy some post-COVID pants and a t-shirt just to like, I'm not going to get my whole wardrobe because this isn't, you know, the best version of me, but I just need something so that I'm comfortable for the next few weeks as I phase back into some sort of, you know, new normal.

Tommy: Yeah, there's new thinking, which is just old ways of thinking that we have to enter back into, like, clothes, like what you're wearing, presentable, where, you know, where are we going, what are we doing, are we eating out, all these things which are now choices that we can make again. But no, I'm— I kind of haven't— I, I don't think I've sort of lent into the, like, the sort of celebration that people have had about coming out. But today I was really thinking, just when I heard a number thrown around of like 100 90 days or something, 200 days of us being in this, 7 months. And like, I was just— so Tully's podcast came out today, Too Much Tully, every Tuesday. Uh, I was just looking at the— we've done 15 episodes of that show. Um, at least 12 of them have been remote. That's 12 weeks.

Josh: Yeah, that's a lot. It's a long time.

Tommy: That seems like a long time. And that was the second lockdown and And so, it's a time for celebration. It is.

Josh: But I mean, this gives you an idea. This is why I don't want to leave the house. We live stream. We don't just do the podcast. You can get on your favourite podcast app if that's how you like it. But we also live stream. Amma in the comments writes, "Your forehead is massive." I mean, this is why I don't want to leave the house. Who's? Who's? I mean, we can only assume whose forehead's bigger.

Tommy: Mine looks bigger. Am I closer to the ca— I reckon I'm closer to the camera. Mine's looking like, look, like 8 fingers worth. No, no, it's not.

Josh: Well, do you know what a big forehead's called?

Tommy: What is it?

Josh: A 5-head.

Tommy: A 5-head.

Josh: You got a forehead and then you got a 5-head.

Tommy: I love that.

Josh: But the, I don't know who's, maybe it's just, I never really thought about it. Do I have a big forehead?

Tommy: Well, I don't know. But I mean, would you get this level of trolling out in the street? Like, would someone just yell out, you know, "Emma is on the internet." I just got a text message from Bri.

Josh: "I reported the comment as bullying," says Bri, the moderator. Thank you, Bri. Got my back. Or Tommy's forehead. Yeah, but what if she—

Tommy: I think Bri assumed it was your forehead, Josh. Is that Bri contributing to this forehead abuse?

Josh: Yeah, Bri saying, "No, you don't. Don't worry about it." Thank you, Bri.

Tommy: Anyway, well, it's great. I'm looking forward to getting out. Like, just, yeah, ease back in, JJ. Ease back in because you know you will close the curtains for another 6 months if at all, if you have the bad experience.

Josh: Yeah, we can't go too hard. Remember when we came back from the first wave and I came into the office and everyone, like, it was just the transitional point. Remember everyone was pissing me off? And so then, like, I was excited to go into the office and then the experience wasn't great. Everyone was annoying me.

Tommy: Oh, yeah. And so, I mean, if— I wish we could just flash back to the episode where we were talking about your grievances of us being back after the first lockdown. Yeah. I mean, what if you just decide to dissect that? If that is the inevitable, that there are things, you call them problems, that are just needing to be solved in real time, in person, or in the company of other people. What is the— what's the solution to avoiding that other than not going to the office?

Josh: Well, it's just going a bit slower, maybe. Maybe just nothing too fast, just seeing how it's all playing out. Maybe not entering into too many conversations, not having too many— trying to make too many decisions in a week.

Tommy: Yeah, well, there's been a lot of fast, probably multiple and fast decision-making being remote, right? Like lots of conversations, which is not what you— it's not sustainable when you're in an office. Like everyone has to be doing their own work, and so it's easy to interrupt somebody or just, hey, can you do this? Or what are you doing? What's up? Want to go for a coffee?

Josh: It's also true we're doing stuff about— like we're talking about the work rather than doing the work because we've been— because we do video production and we can't actually go out and film right now. It's talking about everything around the filming. So it's like, you know, setting up processes and systems and all of that sort of thing.

Tommy: But it's just a different gear shift, a different time. It has— I mean, it's— someone messaged me yesterday and said, hey, do you still do video? It's like, technically yes, but 7 months has gone by where not much has been done. And so I think the answer is yes. No, it is a yes. It is a bloody hell, hell yes. Um, the— have you heard of a guy named Will MacAskill? No. He's a Scottish philosopher, ethicist, and one of the originators of the effective altruism movement. Uh, do you want to know what effective altruism is? Yeah, because I didn't know. Um, sounds cool though. It's a philosophy and social movement that advocates using evidence and reasoning to determine the most effective ways to benefit others. So it's like donating money. What is the most beneficial, uh, charity to receive your money that will make the most change? And so like bed nets being an example of one that is a game changer. And so you have like, for like malaria stuff —Yeah, yeah, yeah, to prove, you know, like it's cheap to create the bed nets, you can create lots of them that benefits lots of people. So, it's like, that's one way of looking at it. And he, I think he did his PhD on, I don't think it was on moral dilemmas, but it had the theme of those, like that kind of human decision-making, like moral dilemmas, what actually goes on. And laying out some moral dilemmas in this podcast that he was in, which, I mean, it's fascinating when it comes— What was the podcast? Sam Harris and the episodes being—

Josh: Should we just call this Hump Day Replay Sam Harris? Like, you can just, you can be the GB for Sam Harris. Yeah, definitely.

Tommy: I mean, he's probably got enough people generating YouTube clips and, but I wanted to, away from his podcast, Moral dilemmas is a fun game where I'll spit you a few moral dilemmas and you have to tell me which way you'd fly. And I guess we're not the psychologists that can then dissect whether you're a psychopath or not based on your decision, because—

Josh: Do you have an answer though? Like, what's the— like, so is there a correct interpretation or is there— is there going to be an answer? I think no.

Tommy: How do I win the game? Moral dilemma is literally just It's where your mind goes with it. What, what's the rationale behind your thinking? I think it just more explains your sort of thought process.

Josh: All right, I like this. Hit me.

Tommy: So I've got 25 moral dilemmas. When I could get through them all, because it sort of needs to lay out the situation, I'll read you a few headlines of the moral dilemmas. You just tell me which one you'd like. The runaway trolley, the deliberate infection, the hostage ecologist, the life insurance policy, the submarine crew. Any of those jump out at you?

Josh: The runaway trolley sounds— yeah, that's problematic. I feel like it's submarine. It feels like there's gonna be a lot of deaths involved.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Big decisions.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. I feel like the trolley— actually, yeah. Do you stop the trolley from hitting the Commodore if the Commodore is about to You know, hit an old lady. The runaway trolley.

Tommy: Here we go, here we go. Put your thinking cap on what you'd do. A runaway trolley is heading down the tracks towards 5 workmen who will be killed if the trolley proceeds on the present course. Molly is on a footbridge over the tracks in between the approaching trolley and the 5 workmen. Next to her on this footbridge is a stranger who happens to be very large. If she does nothing, the trolley will proceed, causing the death of 5 workmen. The only way to save their lives of these workmen is to push this stranger off the bridge and onto the tracks below, where he— where his large body will stop the trolley, causing his death. Should Molly push the stranger onto the tracks in order to save the 5 workmen? You decide. No, Molly shouldn't push the fat man.

Josh: No, no, no. Well, because the thing is, there's no, uh, there's no guarantee. I mean, this is big in sort of, uh, autonomous cars. This is the issue, right? So it's like if you're, uh, if you're in a, uh, in an autonomous car and there's 2 bad scenarios— one is hitting one car, one scenario is hitting a pedestrian or whatever it is, how does the car work out what to do? Um, but no, I think that there's, um, yeah, I, I, I don't think, uh, I don't think there's a good answer there.

Tommy: Well, I think it's like one life versus five, so you're deciding that one life is worth more than the other five, but you're also, you're also considering that your decision's right, that that would in fact do it, which is— Well, I think it will do it. That's what you can't— I think the moral dilemmas are painted in a way that's, this is what will happen and you have the decision. It's not then making up on top of the moral dilemma. So the other thing to look at is it is a fake situation. But if you just take it as what will happen, you will push and it will stop. Or if you don't push, it will kill, 5. But then it's about the person that is willing to push somebody, and that decision-making that you're actually— you have the ability to kill somebody.

Josh: Isn't that like playing God at that point?

Tommy: Yeah, well, I mean, it's playing something.

Josh: It's, it's saying it— well, it's, it's saying Yeah, I mean, this is why it's the moral dilemma. Yeah. Because, yeah, there's a bunch of— I mean, what website is this? Where are you pulling this from?

Tommy: I mean, this— I chose one that wasn't BuzzFeed to prevent that. Do you want me to give you one more?

Josh: What do you think the overweight bit has to do with it? Yeah, I don't know. Do you think that like if you look into it, like this is like, I guess, where it's like a bit problematic because what they're Is there an implication there that he's potentially not as healthy? Or so then you've got to make—

Tommy: They're trying to lay out a scenario that makes you decide. And so there is— there could be someone will make a decision being like, fat bastard, to push him. Like, which is, you know, that's—

Josh: then you're not helping our fatphobic, um, review.

Tommy: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't write this thing, but it's like, that is trying to activate something. Or they're like putting little cues in these things to give somebody the opportunity to either make a decision based on their bias or past experience, you know. So it's like, yeah, I think those little details are purposeful in crafting, you know, or giving somebody the, you know, the, the all the sort of scenarios that will then help them make a decision.

Josh: Or so one, one thought of it, one thought of it is So, they're on tracks and this is a trolley on the track. Is that the idea? It's a trolley on a track. Yeah. And so, the thing is that there's the other element is that when the people who are working on the track, they have signed into that work. And so, they've also signed into though the OH&S and the risk and the things that are involved, the person that is walking across the bridge is just someone, just a pedestrian walking. And so, I think that part of the consideration too is that with every job there's a risk and that risk is associated with what those 5 people are doing.

Tommy: Yeah. I think for me, I couldn't— the murdering bit, I mean, the actively deciding to push somebody is probably where it goes wrong for me. And the 5 lives goes out of the equation at that point. It's full— I mean, it's full on. As you said, that scenario is very, very common. I've heard that the Tesla version or the Elon The autonomous car is like old per— decide to hit one old person or bump into a car and kill 4 young people.

Josh: But isn't it, I think that this is the whole, this is the thing that's come up with all of the COVID stuff. Is it's like, like my view on it is it's a life is a life. Unfortunately, what we're seeing is in places like the US, it's like, ah, if it kills a bunch of old people, like it is what it is. And so unfortunately, like, whether someone is 70 or they're 25, I think that as a society we should value those lives equally. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, I think that that's the— yeah, that's why it's the, the moral dilemma. And I think that if you look at what's happening in the world at the moment, you can see where some people's morals potentially are a bit skewed.

Tommy: Yeah, well, the one I heard them sort of outlining was there's a burning house and there's— you, you can save one child, or inside of that house is the Mona Lisa, the painting. And so you could take that off the wall, which you could sell for $100 million or whatever it'd be. And use that money to save millions of children. Which one do you do? Do you take the Mona Lisa or do you save the child?

Josh: Yeah, I don't— like, yeah, no, I think like it's you, you save the child. I think that there's too much, too many sort of, uh, yeah, no, I think I feel like these, these things are easy, like when I'm thinking about them. It's like that, that idea of the money to then enable this thing. The person who isn't willing to save the child that's in front of them, I wonder their moral compass or ability to, you know, what do you call it? You know, the little Freddie's Fire Fund, the $100 million that the kid burnt alive to save a bunch of kids. Yeah, I just think it's—

Tommy: Is that a real thing? What's that?

Josh: No, no, I'm just saying that that's what like you're like, so I save them the Mona Lisa. And, um, but obviously we've got Freddie. Freddie's fucking dead because you had to pick one. Unfortunately, with COVID it's only like— with it all— with all the, um, sort of, uh, changes in the economy, Mona Lisa only worth $90 mil. But we're still gonna still be able to do a bunch. I don't know, like, are we really thinking— like, the other, the other consideration too is it's like, um, So many of these things are so ingrained and instinctive. Like, so for me, it's like if I see someone who's been injured, my— like, I was thinking about this the other day, my first thing is to call an ambulance. Like, I don't feel like— I guess part of it comes down to, uh, self-esteem, or what do we think— what do we think is the, um, we can do? What is it? What's the best tool that we have to be able to do something? Um, yeah, yeah, 100%.

Tommy: I think, um, I mean, the, the extension from the, like, helping an individual to helping multiple individuals— like, there is, there is so many opportunities for us to help multiple individuals, but I think as humans, the, the heroic save or the, the, the thing that's really clear to us that has the result of I helped an individual it could be one person, you know, like the thought of like one being able to directly impact like an indi— like I think the— if you were to donate money directly to somebody and have a relationship with them where you understood what they were doing with the money and you could see the benefit, like it feels like it's— there's more stimulus in the reward than donating, say, like the bed net thing where you're helping lots of people with a similar amount of money. And so, but that's just ingrained in us as humans that like, yes, you know, how amazing you'd feel and heroic you would feel saving somebody from the train tracks, one individual versus many.

Josh: I also think the difference is between, uh, with visibility too. So, I think that the answer would be different So all of these moral, um, decisions would be different if, uh, if other people would know what happened. Yeah, true. So I think that that's like a consideration. So it's, um, if— because if you think about it, in government, in life, there are so many times where it's like you are donating to a charity, you're making a decision on a charity But doesn't mean that you're disregarding all other charities. Like, people could see it that way, right? It's like, oh, why are you supporting this thing when there's these starving people over here? Like, that, that becomes like problematic. And I think that that's the issue that we're facing, uh, in the world at the moment, which is just like there are so many issues, there's so many things that we need to fix, that we need to, to work on.

Tommy: There was a, um, charity set up. The idea was merigot rounds in African countries, and the spinning of the merigot round would help, you know, the children could jump on and play and move their friends around in a circle, and the movement would draw water out of a bore or a well. And so, it was like this two-prong approach where it was fun for kids, but beneficial for the village. And it got so much traction, and there was celebrities endorsing it, you know, millions and millions of dollars donated from the US government. And, um, and they, and they went ahead with it, the development of it. And it, with all the praise and it being like a cool idea, you could imagine BuzzFeed running an article about it., and it was a disaster. What happens is the kids got tired and the village, it ended up having to be used by the elderly women in the village drawing out the water, which—

Josh: Yeah. I mean, this is what's— I think that, yeah, there's so many examples of like, I don't think necessarily the most important charity wins. The ones with the best marketing or the best ability to communicate a story. There's so many examples of that. There's—

Tommy: They do win in terms of winning if they're playing that game of best advertising or best marketing.

Josh: Which you are. Well, no. So, the thing is that if you're a charity, what are you trying to do? You're trying to have impact. And so, this is the thing with like galas. Galas, people, you look at them and it's like, oh, this is a wank fest. But they work, like Gala's work. The, um, yeah, there was a charity where they spent like a quarter of a million dollars on a VR experience where everyone sat down and they had their own, uh, VR headset and they put it on and they could, uh, basically walk around this village and it communicated a great story. And the thing was that that campaign, uh, that sort of, uh, you know, set of raising, they raised millions of dollars. And so whilst a quarter of a million dollars seems like a lot of money, when you look at the impact that it can have— and that's what I think is relevant when we spoke to Daniel Flynn from Thankyou— was it's like, uh, it's not this thing of money versus charity or business versus charity. We need to work out a solution that encourages the best people in the world, the best people in their field, the best marketers, the best operations people to work in these important industries and with this important sort of goal. Because otherwise it's like, if we assume that charity, you know, they need to be not spending much money and doing all that sort of thing, like what business does well without spending large amounts of money on marketing?

Tommy: Well, and then, yeah, the great minds of the world, are usually lured towards working for the big tech companies, or like, you know, problem solving, because there is high reward monetary. Not to say that that's greedy on their behalf, but maybe that's just where their field of, you know, expertise ends up sort of directing them. And then it's— yeah, so it's like the, the appealing nature of solving some problems that would save lives might not be that appealing or might not have what you're saying, like that, that, that draw-in effect that, say, come work for Google might have. Well, that—

Josh: but I think that that's why we, we have things a bit skew-whiff at the moment, that that is the thing, you know, the, uh, that doing that— yeah, exactly. It's, it's high status to work for a big tech company and we see the impact and we sort of, we write articles. But there are many people who are nurses, doctors, teachers, all these things that actually are so important, and they're not getting paid the most. And so there is, I guess this is, this is the big issue of our generation, is how do we, how do we create a system that doesn't just benefit 1% that are great at, say, solving technology problems, but distributed across to people who are having massive impacts. Like, if, if we didn't have teachers, if we didn't have nurses, if we didn't have all these people, we'd be fucked. But yet we, um, if, if fine money is one way that we not only reward people but also show a level of appreciation or show status in society. We should be bringing people who are, you know, first responders, people who are, you know, doing the hard work that, you know, think about what we do. Like, think about entertainment. Think about how many comedians, entertainers are super, super wealthy and think about what they get to do. And then you think about the, you know, the people who are showing up every day doing the unsexy work. Um, I don't know what the answer is.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's tough. There's so much appeal to the status of, you know, that high status in that way. And we also need good people.

Josh: We need, we need critical thinkers. We need people who are also think socially responsible in companies like Google, like Facebook, to make sure that there's some accountability. So the, the other thing too is we can't— you don't want to— we need to make sure that these organisations that have a huge amount of power also have a moral comp— a moral compass as well. Um, we got an email. What to think about— we got an email from, uh, Julia. So we asked, uh, have you had a dream about us? The other day, Julia says, hey team, the other night I was scrolling Instagram before I went to bed and saw Josh's TTS quote saying, if you had a dream about us, send us an email. And then that night I had a dream about you. This is what she— this is what the dream was. Are you ready? Yeah, go, go. Basically, I had to order a pizza for you all, and Josh was stressing to me over the phone that it had to be delivered within the hour. And a half, otherwise you wouldn't eat it. But a lady overheard the conversation and told me not to bother because that pizza place was apparently hopeless and would take 2 hours minimum. Super random, and I don't know how it ended. Haha. Hopefully, if you've had— Hopefully you've had some more interesting dream emails than this one, Julia. That's a great email, Julia.

Tommy: Mate, you had us at food chat, Julia. It's A+.

Josh: It's very consistent. At least I'm consistent in people's dreams as well.

Tommy: Complaining about your order, wanting your pizza within an hour. I mean, that's understandable. If you got a— If you ordered a pizza and it was over an hour, you'd be pissed. You would be pissed.

Josh: I mean, this is the thing Bri and I were talking about restaurants, going to a restaurant, left it too late, just like it's already booked up. Have you noticed this? Have you tried this at all? Like just with the lockdowns easing. The— They were like, oh, let's go to this restaurant. It's like, okay, not this weekend.

Tommy: Or maybe see it as a sign.

Josh: It's definitely, I'm not ready. But the other thing is haircuts. Like, the thing I can't, you know what I'm like. I don't like lines. I don't like waiting. I don't like the sitting on the couch, who's going next, sitting next to people.

Tommy: That is old school. You could find one where you could take a booking. I mean, it's rather than the lining up, so you could just like really push it.

Josh: A lot of the hipster places, like, so they promoting that more now? Is booking promoted more in this place you're going to? So like the barber down the road, do you think that like barbers that would normally just like not do bookings? Because that's a thing.

Tommy: Anyway, yeah, I mean, I was surprised that the place that I went to on the weekend usually is a booking, or you could walk in if they're free. Yeah, yeah. But usually it is a hair— it's not a class as a barber where you just like line up, get your haircut when we're ready. But there's a heap of places. Maybe book in, get yourself a real nice treatment, $150. Drop $150 on your first haircut.

Josh: I mean, what's the— I'd pay extra for no banter. That's one thing. I think that if I like— I think that would be a great What about, you know how they do at the supermarkets, they'll do like a quiet Wednesday for people with like autism or whatever, where it's like, oh, we— Oh, yeah. Like turn off the music, dim down the lights. Can we have this for barbers? Like I would pay more for sort of the autism hour where I can go and it's just No bullshit, no convo, just cut my hair.

Tommy: What about you lean into it and you put on a persona? I reckon it'd be easier for you to act as someone else, you know, Jason Lanson, just, and then just go, you just go full persona, just, just you're a chippy and you've had it, you've been working the whole time. I mean, they might see your hands, but That's okay. They won't, they're not going to say anything.

Josh: But maybe they will. Maybe they're like, mate, what are you working on? Just a work site on Smith Street. Yeah.

Tommy: What is it? Big one or small one?

Josh: Like, yeah, it's a big one, but we can't have many people on site at the moment.

Tommy: Oh, it's been annoying about the COVID stuff, hasn't it? It's bloody, you know, we've been out of, we haven't been out of work in a long time. So, they always bring it back to them. And then just listen.

Josh: Do you think they're saying the same thing about you? Probably.

Tommy: I mean, where I went, I, um, the— he— they were Persian. They seemed to want to talk in Persian more than English. They could speak English very well, but I hardly got anything. Maybe go at the end of the day. That's it. Tired, don't want to fucking talk, you know. They're— they've done 40 cuts in a day, and they're, they're just— you may get a less quality haircut but that's okay, you get less money.

Josh: I've actually got a great PR idea. This would actually— this would get a barber in the news. I'm being deadly serious. It's called the No Banter Barber. And so it's— that's all you can be guaranteed, that there'll be no banter. Potentially even, um, uh, like, I wonder if they could cut through a, um, And here's another name, the glory hole barber. It's just they have a hole and they cut through. You just go on the one side with your head and they do it. You don't even know who the barber is.

Tommy: So, you don't have to make eye contact?

Josh: Yeah. Well, yeah, you can see your face, but you just sort of see a background with a hole and you just see the scissors and the thing come out. There is masks on. The thing being the trimmers.

Tommy: Masks on take away that sort of personal element, I think. You know, you can't see someone's facial cues, signs. And so, yeah, yeah, I reckon, yeah, I reckon you're safe. Or there's just a leaning in, doing it, and just don't talk. I think if— I think what you're talking about is the people that don't have any signal, any understanding of social cues. If you're— No, because I—

Josh: the thing is that I'm terrible at giving the correct social cue. So I go like what you're talking about, I go the other way where I'm like I need to be personable. I need to be— And so, I became like best mates with one hairdresser where he's like, "Oh, my mate's actually looking for like a subleasing." So, I'm like, "I've got a place." And so, he's like texting me his mate's number and it's just, it became too much too quickly. He was talking about his drug addiction and, you know, drug abuse and things like that. And so, it just, it became this thing where I liked him, but I was just like, it became too much. And the thing was that it was also like I just came in with so much confidence. And so I remember saying to him, I'm like, I never do this, but like, I found the hairdresser. Like, let's— I'm gonna start booking in every 6 weeks. And then just by, I think, like the second appointment, I was like, this is, this is too much. This is, uh, this is tiring. For both of us, I think, because he felt like he was bringing something. So the thing is, it's like you don't want to have to go to the hairdresser and have them say, oh, did you, um, did you hear from my mate about the lease? And then you have to explain that, oh, it's more of an office space, it doesn't really suit having a brewery like set up, you know, that type of thing. And so this is the— this is what happens.

Tommy: Just shut your mouth, just don't talk. No banter, Barba. No banter. None. Just nod.

Josh: Yeah. The other thing is like starting to live here too much.

Tommy: That's a good excuse. Wisdom teeth.

Josh: Wisdom teeth is good. Oh, mate, isn't it? Do you know what I've done? I don't know if this is obnoxious. I think it probably is. I've done this a few times on my walks. I just say to the other person, like, I actually can't be bothered talking. Can you just talk? And I'll listen.

Tommy: Have you walked with them since?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, I've done it with Jack. I did it with Bree this morning, actually.

Tommy: What's the you experience at that point if Craig— like Craig Harper says?

Josh: I think it's like, uh, it depends if they want to talk or not. I think that's an honesty thing, right? Which is just like, hey, like, I'm just— I've got fucking nothing. Can you just— why did I do it? I feel like there was a specific reason. Yeah, I've just been talking all day. I was like, can you— That was the thing Jack ended up being like, okay, well, when I said, can you just talk? He was like, okay, well, I'm guessing you'd be talking right now about this. And then I'd probably say this.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. If they drop off, it's not working for you. If they hang in there, they might see it as a fun game.

Josh: Because I end up talking, I think. But it's just sometimes. Sometimes. Do you ever do that? Have you ever said, are you cool just to talk?

Tommy: Nah, never. Okay.

Josh: It's good. It takes a lot of like when it's just, there's something nice about it because you can try and trick them into it by asking them like a question that you hope they give a long answer for. Yeah. But there's also something interesting about seeing someone just monologue next to you. So, they have to just come up with the thing.

Tommy: It's a weird challenge. I mean, some people might lean into it. What happens if there's two of you? It's a silent walk.

Josh: If the, um, yeah, like this, which I think is perfect. Like, I think that there's something— I get so excited when there's silence. Do you feel silence? Well, no. So the thing is, that's the contradiction. You, you love to feel it, but I used to be like that.

Tommy: I don't think I'm like that anymore. Well, the barber situation you're saying, because then in that case you could actually just If you just stopped talking, they'd probably stop. And if they don't stop, that's on them.

Josh: So, the thing is, my only issue with silence is if the other person isn't across what's going on. And so, the thing is that for people that I'm close with, silence is all good because we understand that. And so, the thing is, it's the— I think this is across the board. When you get more familiar with someone or become closer, there isn't a sense that you need to keep the conversation going the whole time. Oh, yeah.

Tommy: It's the classic, you know, "I can't believe we're so close now. Like when we drive, we don't even have to talk, but we know we like each other." Exactly. It's like the new relationship. I've said that probably 10 times.

Josh: That's your way of getting out of talking. Yeah. Just like, "Oh, isn't it great? We don't have to talk." And then you just put on Matchbox 20.

Tommy: Alright, Gronks. Happy Tuesday. Too Much Telly's episode has just dropped.

Josh: I think we've got a special guest tomorrow. I think we'll bring that— we're going to pre-record for later in the week, but I think we actually put it out tomorrow, TJ. So, special guest tomorrow on the show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Send us an email. How are you going? If you're in Melbourne and you're getting out of lockdown, or do you have any advice in regards to how I can go to the barber without, uh, social anxiety.

Tommy: Have you got a barber that just doesn't talk and yet, yeah, that's why you go to them, but there's no, there's no agreement between the two of you, but that's just why it's the way it goes down.

Josh: Yeah. Uh, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts if you are inclined. Uh, outside of that, enjoy the rest of your day and we'll see tomorrow. Guys, have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.