Andy Lee on Audience, Niches & Iterating

Andy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 869.

Tommy: Andy, Tom Lee, welcome back to The Daily Talk Show.

Andy: Wow, 869. Mm-hmm. Hey, man, I was trying to work out how many shows we've done in our life the other day, and you guys are really tearing it down. I'm worried you're gonna overtake us.

Josh: How many episodes?

Andy: How many episodes? Well, we think, and look, it's sketchy because we don't have all our university radio shows, but we were just trying to roughly do what it was. But we think around about 2,550.

Josh: Oof. It's a lot. That's more than John Morgan, isn't it?

Andy: But that's over 20 years. You guys are already in the 800s. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And we're actually 16. We just have aged a shitload in 2 years attempting to do this many.

Andy: No, no, no.

Josh: So, we're trying to do 10 years.

Tommy: Hamish and Andy. We're trying to— when I say trying to, we are going to, but that should lead us to a couple of thousand. So, it should only land us at— But I'm happy to continue, Josh, if it means we're going to beat Hamish and Andy's amount of listeners.

Josh: If we were to win in something, it would be nice.

Andy: We're doing— We made a pledge of 40 episodes for 40 years, was the podcast. So, you will incrementally get us. But because we're only doing 40 a year, but that's the promise, the 1,600 over 40 years.

Josh: Is that actually— Is this something you've spoken? This is definitely— This is not true.

Andy: Yeah, this is what we said on the podcast.

Josh: Oh, great.

Andy: We said, yeah, 40 for 40 years. Wow.

Josh: That's—

Andy: So, we're in year 3 of the 40 for 40 years.

Josh: I mean, the great thing about these grandiose promises is you can sort of just make them. Like, it's so far away.

Andy: Yeah, exactly. But then with our listeners, we constantly get reminded of things that we've promised and not delivered on. And so, and people send in the audio from like 2006 going, hey, you said if this didn't happen by this date, you would do this. And sure, we ignore most of those, but at times the other person will bring it up, particularly if it was a claim that Hamish made. I'm always very keen to bring it up. To him and go, hey, this— I'll remind you of this moment and play it for him. And then generally that storyline starts again.

Tommy: Well, the guy that you banned from the show for years and then you had him back on, like, you see how if you just make enough promises, you will come through on a few of them and they are great.

Andy: Like, that was a great— exactly.

Tommy: That was amazing. Andy, the difference between the everyday radio show versus the podcast, what's been the shift in you and Hamish and your friendship Because it's a unique working relationship being around someone doing the radio show versus once a week. What has that shift been like?

Andy: Look, I think it was timely because with everything else going on, you know, Hamish got LEGO Masters and other shows and he's got a family and he used to just kind of feed my attention. Now he's got Sonny and Rudy and he should spend some time with his wife. So I think As far as lifestyle goes, it means that it's a great balance. And also, we probably chat more as pals now because it's not the daily, what are we doing today, what are we doing the show, etc. It's a weekly thing. So yeah, we trade more text messages, more phone calls, just buddying it up, which is pretty nice, to be honest. After, you know, we had a 10 probably a 10-year spout of, um, of, you know, it started out as just uni mates and it was just mucking about, and then it got quite serious, even though serious in its silliness. But there was certainly, you know, the daily radio to be doing. Um, so it's kind of nice to circle back to that.

Josh: I was looking, you were late to Instagram. You only got on Instagram like 3 years ago. Very late, but very quick on TikTok. Like, I feel like for your demographic, you've got to be almost like patient one in that in some regards.

Andy: Um, I did it for that exact reason. It's like, I was so late on Instagram. Yeah, that it could— because anyone that's on some bit of social media earlier gets more followers. Like, it's just the way it happens because everyone's picking things up and they're not discerning when, when, when something starts.

Tommy: It was the same—

Andy: Hamish and I were very late on Twitter, um, individually. But, and you see people take it up really quickly and they're not discerning because it's a new form of media. Then if you get on later, people are like, yeah, do I really want to follow this guy or not? So basically, as a safeguard, I started a TikTok just to get a number in case TikTok ruled the world. I'm not very good at it. I actually haven't been on it for like 6 weeks, I don't think. But, but yes, that was the reason why.

Josh: It makes sense.

Tommy: Well, we love a, um, sort of a rebrand, domain names, handles. Josh informed me that you've just shifted your Twitter handle. Big move.

Andy: Big, huge move. Well, the thing was, I had a different Instagram handle to Twitter, which a lot of people do.

Josh: It's a— yeah, but fast and loose. Hamish Blake is doing some of the worst. Hamish Blake Shots is still available on Twitter if you want to pick it up.

Andy: Yeah, exactly. So what happened was Someone took my Twitter handle and made a fake Instagram handle and vice versa. Someone took my Instagram handle and made a fake Twitter page trying to be me, which is quite easy. It's just playing golf and drinking beer. So, it's not— It was pretty easy to pretend to be me. And so, that was a strange thing to kind of look at. And I was like, oh, well, I should try to. And when people are tagging in you on the opposite one, they often get it wrong.

Josh: Yeah.

Andy: So, I thought I should try and sync them up. And I noticed the other day that Twitter had gone on and disabled the person impersonating me. So, people must have reported him or something, or him or her. And I thought, well, this is an opportunity to see if I can get that handle. And I could. So, I did.

Josh: Talking about golf, the school that I went to in high school was called Glen Eagles, and I got the Twitter handle Glen Eagles, and I found an old email of me contacting the Glen Eagles golf course seeing if I could do some sort of contract. Yeah, where I gave them the Twitter handle in exchange for a few rounds of golf, but they never wrote back. So if you think that you could potentially do something with it, I'm happy to give you Gleneagles on Twitter.

Andy: I will eventually play at Gleneagles. Yeah.

Josh: Can you tag me?

Andy: Hamish has stayed there, which is so weird. He doesn't play golf. He's just looking for a nice place to stay after we did a trip through England and Scotland and Zoe was travelling across and knowing Hamish, he probably would have just typed in something very quickly and booked it because he had promised Zoe that he'd done it 4 weeks ago or something. So he ended up in Gleneagles.

Tommy: He loved it.

Andy: But he's like, I'm like, are you— I really want to play that golf course and you're just, just having, having walks and having, having lunches. So, um, yeah, I will, I will definitely get there to play because I've got this, you know, that is the retirement plan is to pick off golf courses around the world. And I'd love to play— I don't think Gleneagles is in the top 100, but my goal is to spend a year or two and play the top 100 golf courses in the world if I can get on. And that to me would be an amazing year. Boring for a lot of people, don't get me wrong, but that would be great for me.

Tommy: What actually makes a top-level golf course other than green grass and it really, you know, it mowed properly?

Josh: Good hot chips at the clubhouse, I believe.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Josh: Oh yeah.

Andy: Well, I mean, I'm about to delve into something that's super interesting to me, but you guys can edit this, okay?

Josh: This is great.

Andy: Okay. How would I describe it to people? Okay, most people like food more than golf. So, let me try and use food analogies, right?

Tommy: Great.

Andy: Yes, you are right about the way it's mown and how green the grass is, even how fast the actual greens run and how pure they are. The ball doesn't bobble around, it's just pure. It's like on carpet. That makes a good golf course. So, I suppose that's like the food itself, the ingredients. Ingredients have to be good, right? So fresh, good ingredients. Then you're talking about the ambiance. The— you go into a beautiful restaurant, obviously dimly lit, they might have lovely fixtures, fittings, etc. The golf course design is just as important. A hole and its design, the way it uses its hills and the way it puts bunkers and trees, etc., is just as exciting. You can get there and go, that's a good hole, that's a terrible hole. And I know that makes no sense to a lot of people, but there is a golf course, a public one, next to my house down the coast called St. Andrews Beach, which is so highly ranked. And it's a public course just because of the design. The holes are really clever.

Josh: What about weather? Like, I can imagine it gets windy on the coast. Like, weather's not an issue.

Andy: Never comes into it, I don't think, when they judge golf courses. I don't know why, but yes, there's some of the, like, For instance, in the top of Tasmania, a place called Barnburgle, uh, ranked number 1 and 2, or 2 and 3, um, in the country. Royal Melbourne's still number 1, but yeah, 2 and 3 in the country. But it gets super windy and super rainy down there, so you've got to pick your time to go. But the courses are incredible.

Josh: Surely that's a consideration, you'd think.

Andy: Nah, because you're meant to— you're meant to brave it all. It's meant to be for all conditions.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, have you, have you experienced one that was at the top that, you know, according to, you know, @AndyTomLee, that you haven't rated it?

Andy: Well, I mean, you guys having played Tiger Woods golf on PS4 or something back in the day, or PS3, Pebble Beach is a very, very famous course.

Josh: Yeah.

Andy: Um, and for golfers, even if you're not a golfer, Pebble Beach might be the one that I didn't think Pebble was as good as I'd hoped it would be. Hopefully they allow me back on. But also, when you play really shit, you can think that the course is really bad. I didn't have a good day, so maybe that was it. Just my own little demons coming out.

Josh: You hear that like Donald Trump apparently cheats a little bit when he plays golf.

Andy: Yes.

Josh: But then— What a dog.

Andy: I'm reading a book called Commander in Cheat. And it's about a guy that played golf, a lot of golf with Donald Trump and realises the way he cheated in golf is very close to the way he cheats as a president and the way he lies and the way he goes about his whole life actually is the way he treats golf as well. It's quite fascinating.

Josh: Because he says that he's got a handicap of 4.

Andy: Which would be a huge lie. It has to be.

Josh: What's your handicap?

Andy: I'm off 6, but I'm probably worse than that. I got lucky on a bit of a run, which can bring it down. But 4 is extremely good. And I've seen the way he swings it. Ain't no good.

Tommy: What is the— What's the similarities of— I'm not trying to compare you to Donald Trump, but just golfers in general. What are the traits of people who like— golf and how does it sort of, how does it translate to, you know, normal life for most?

Andy: I feel like I'm on an uphill battle with golf because it seems like this current spokespeople for golf are Donald Trump and Sam Newman. And so, any time like I'm like, you know, enthusiastic about it, I think most people are more excited about knocking them down and hoping that golf dies very slowly. I'm not putting Trump and, and Newman, you know, entirely in the same basket, although Newman is a Trump supporter. But, um, yeah, it's, it's a shame that, uh, those guys are the face of it all.

Josh: But I, I—

Andy: look, there's a lot— what I found, what I didn't realise until I started playing was that a lot of my favourite creatives play it. So, um, which has been really fun to start playing with them and get invited out with them. So Rob Sitch, um, who is, uh, from Working Dog, you know, he wrote The Castle, um, and, um, and directed The Dish. And, you know, like, he loves his golf and, and we play a lot. And Sam Pang, Glen Robbins loves his golf, um, and we, and we play a lot. And so there's this group of people that you can go out— Mick Malloy loves it, um, and it's just the thing I love about golf. I realized, um, is it's actually the chatting far more than the golf. I don't— I've never gone and played by myself.

Josh: Are you a walker or do you go and golf? Always walking.

Andy: Yeah, always walk. And it's the only time in life really for me, because I like being busy and like being connected, but I turn my phone off for the golf game. Takes about 4.5 hours, 5 hours, and no one seems to look at their phones.

Josh: Like, surely there's a great app. Like, I feel like— because I used to play golf a lot as a kid, like I would be on the course like 7 days a week type of thing. Terrible. I think I was at the max, which is a 32 handicap for juniors, and spent like a lot of time. But I feel like there were contraptions, like, do you have some, like, a— do you still use a scorecard with a pencil? Does that help you with your cheating?

Andy: Well, no, because the, the— if you're handing in a handicapped card, you actually hand the card to your playing partner. You're not allowed to record your score.

Josh: Are they mailing or how are they—

Andy: no, no, you hand it in. Yeah, you little raven at the end, you just give it to So at the end in the clubhouse, you hand them in. But you— so if, if, if I was playing with you, Josh, I would give you my card at the start of the round and you mark in my score for the whole round.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Andy: Then you sign it and give it back to me, and I do the same for you. So that's how you're meant to stop cheating. And it does, it really does. Like, you— even if people miscount, you know, sometimes you might walk off and go, I got a 5, because you missed a putt that was tiny, like, you know, a 10-centimeter putt, but you in your head already thought you'd made 'You got a 5.' And the guy's like, 'Oh, was it a 6?' 'Yeah, I did miss that.' So, sometimes unwillingly you might think that you might accidentally cheat. But so, it's good to have someone that keeps close eye on you.

Tommy: Not necessarily for us, but golf would be a great place to take someone on a date. Like, if you're just doing banter and you're focused on the chat, it's a great idea. I mean, I guess that's mini golf.

Josh: It's that— I nearly flipped the golf buggy, remember, in Fiji with Bree? I've got GoPro footage of her saying, 'No!' Oh, as we actually, we got air.

Andy: Well, it's, I mean, people talk about different meditations, you know, this, I don't meditate as such, but then realised when I've read a bit about meditation, it's like, oh, this is exactly what I'm doing when I go out there, like concentrating on something that's completely different to your life. I don't tend to get, think about work at all because I'm so focused on what am I going to do for the next shot, etc. And if we go back again, this might be so boring for everyone, but if we go back to what we talked about with design, um, my neighbor, um, down, down the coast, he's one of the best golf designers in the world. Um, he used to be a pro. He, um, he's won, uh, a bunch of titles. An older fellow, lovely guy called Mike Clayton. And when I, I often play with him and he tells you why a course is good or a hole is good or not. And a—

Josh: is it depending on how he's playing? It's like, ah, cheque design, this one.

Andy: But, and I like this for life, a good hole gives you choices when you stand up on the tee, which is like, I can get there in many different ways. I know that sounds really bizarre, but like, that's why shorter holes are often better, because you could be conservative first and then have a longer shot in, or you can have the risk-reward of going, trying to go longer with a shorter shot in, which makes it easier. But that's, that's what a good hole does. And, and so I love getting up onto a tee box and trying to go, what is the designer wanting me to do? And where's the risk-reward? And am I feel like I'm going to take that on? And I love making those calculations. And it's so far from what I've got to do for work. Gee, I've got to sign those documents. Oh my gosh, someone's suing me for libel.

Josh: Can I do one final, uh, one final golf question?

Andy: Yeah, of course. I mean, I'm loving this, but I don't— I'm worried that you guys, you guys are data, data guys. You'll be able to track how deeply this fell off.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, no, we're going to put it on all the golf forums. Um, I'm going to send this to Glen Eagles to try and put my case together. But the, um, uh, what's your favorite—

Tommy: which will also get it. Sorry, Pebble Beach will receive this.

Josh: I will be going there. So the, uh, your favorite, uh, golf club, as you know, like not as in the course but actually like swinging, uh, and are you a putter guy? Because you see people who have like fucking 30 different putters and every week they've got the new one that's got some ridiculous head on it.

Andy: I get sucked in a little bit to technology but not really. I kind of just get my clubs and, and kind of stick with them. I've been fortunate in recent years that because of my love for golf one of the brands reached out and said, hey, we really love what you guys do, what you do, and how much you love it. And they send me things, so I feel a bit cheeky in that regard. But, um, as far as the clubhouse, there is— I remember Peninsula Kings, which is this beautiful clubhouse, like that's your traditional golf kind of thing. But I would say my favourite is this one at St. Andrews Beach. They ran out of money, it's a shipping container. Um, it's a shipping container with a deck out the front that they built the deck and they were hoping to build a clubhouse many, many years ago, over a decade ago, and it's never got done. And so, that's my favourite is having a— They only sell cans of beer, it's normally the local brewery and sitting out there having a can outside the shipping container is my favourite.

Tommy: Well, I mean, if you still wore your clothes from when you were 15, you couldn't afford clothes, they would come back into fashion. That's what they've done. Put a shipping container, it looked pov and it's actually become hipster-core.

Andy: It's bohemian now.

Tommy: I mean, in London, I went to a place called Cargo Bar that was literally just made out of cargo ship containers. And yeah, I think— It's the coolest thing. How good is it? Yeah.

Josh: I mean, a lot of times these container things end up like, I've watched a bunch of YouTube videos to actually get the containers working. It ends up costing more than just building an actual house. Yeah.

Andy: Yeah. I agree. But there was, I mean, I saw a Grand Designs where a person was using shipping containers, but the amount of welding and cranes required to get all the containers going in sync, I mean, the house looked amazing, but yeah, I'm not sure if it was a huge cost saver for it.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Are you handy around the house? Are you a DIY guy?

Andy: Not too bad. I am a bit particular, as any listener of the Hamish Angus Show would know, I'm particular about things being done right and finishes. So, I will have a go at things, but I will want to make sure that it looks as good as it could, I suppose. So, yeah, harder things I won't, I probably won't have a go at, but I tend to be able to fix things more than build things, I would say.

Josh: Have you had any projects, like DIY projects, since lockdown?

Andy: A few, mainly plumbing-related ones.

Josh: They're like emergency sort of things?

Andy: Well, yeah, one was like a smell. I was like, oh gosh, I'm gonna have to do this no matter how much baking soda I throw down this thing and try to release the stench. Turns out that the S-bend wasn't kind of sealing up. Oh, I hate when the S-bend doesn't seal up.

Josh: Oh no.

Andy: Yeah, exactly. But, and then like—

Tommy: Do you know what the S Pen's for? Do you know what the S Pen like— I only got told. Yeah, I only got told that.

Josh: Well, what was it?

Andy: Recently. Sorry. To stop smell.

Josh: Oh, okay. Sure. And so, that was why you had the S Pen.

Tommy: So, JJ, it's the water is there to prevent it sort of coming back up, which makes a lot of sense. But somehow I get it to smell even when the S Pen's working.

Andy: So, yeah, if the— 'Cause it comes down in a nest and goes back up and then in heads down, there would be an amount of water that sits. Does that make sense? I'm trying to describe it.

Josh: It's almost like, because the smell of like still water or whatever, like it goes a bit gross.

Andy: Yeah. So, this, if you don't use your tap for a long time, it'll start smelling because that particular bit of water that's in the S-bend, similar to a bath toilet, will get stale. But a tap that's used regularly will wash out that stale water. It stops the stuff from the sewage or a septic tank wafting all the way out because it creates its own cap. The water creates its own seal. That's— Gee, I can't believe— I thought the golf was boring.

Josh: Yeah, we've ticked off golf, the plumbing.

Andy: Plumbing.

Tommy: What's next?

Josh: What's next, Jamie? I mean, how hard is it?

Andy: Oh, I just had a— Here's what's been terrible.

Josh: Okay.

Andy: I had a rat die in the wall.

Josh: Oh, no.

Tommy: Oh, no, no.

Andy: And so, maggots have been coming out of the wall. And there is not a lot you can do about it. You can—

Josh: Get rid of the rat.

Andy: But you have to cut into the wall.

Josh: You're gonna have to do it, though. Like, surely at some point you're gonna have to do it. What's like, what are you hoping for?

Andy: Well, 2 and a half weeks, a maggot will— I've read about this as well— a maggot will decompose the rat. The rat will become nothing in 2 and a half weeks.

Josh: So, you're waiting for maggots to— Like, do you not do your dishes, too? You're just waiting for the maggots?

Andy: Well, the thing is, it's like, do I— I couldn't do this myself to cut through the wall. If it was on a plaster wall, maybe you could attempt it or get someone else to do it. But it's on a stone wall.

Tommy: Oh, no.

Andy: So, it's the problem with living in a castle.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Andy: They would have this problem all the time. So, and, you know, and that's why I'm holding off Maid Marian coming around. I just don't want to have to smell this. Oh, God. So, the solution is either you can cut into the roof and drop these deodorising bags down the cavity that cap to try and capture the smell and still let the maggots do their thing. Or it's 2 and a half weeks, 2 and a half weeks of a smell and yet the maggots do their thing. So, the maggots will slowly finding their way out of the wall. I don't know how, but so, I'm on Mag Patrol. And because Bec doesn't want anything to do with it.

Josh: Which room is it in?

Andy: Living room, which is not great. Yeah, so Bec, like, when the smell was at its worst, Bec was just not— we're not watching anything. There was no series, there was a lot of golf. There was a lot of golf. So, um, which was kind of fine for me because I was like, oh, the footy was on. So I was like, okay, well, I'm happy to withstand stench. Things are worse than I can watch football. But, yeah, now it seems like the maggots have done their thing. It doesn't really smell anymore, but they're just coming out full as a gourd. They've had a huge— They've had a great lunch and they're coming out. And so, yeah, I'm on mag watch every morning. I wake up and Bec goes, you're going down to clean up that. And I'll—

Josh: So, there's like— What do you mean clean up that? What are you cleaning up?

Tommy: You're wearing—

Andy: Well, I'm cleaning up all the maggots that are coming out of the wall.

Josh: How many maggots?

Andy: Oh, well, early on, I would say tens, close to 100. But now it's like—

Tommy: Oh my.

Andy: Yeah, now it's more closer to, I don't know, it's like a 10-a-day type thing.

Tommy: But—

Josh: Oh my God. Do you think next time you have it right, because like there is that like 2 and a half weeks that you've had to wait, is it worth it, or is this like waiting for Instagram? Next time it comes around, you're gonna hit it like TikTok.

Andy: Nah, totally worth it. I'm trying to find a photo for you guys because I sent a photo. Um, here we go. I think I've got one here. Okay, so like, this is what I'm— I'm not sure if you can see this.

Tommy: Just go to centre of screen in front of your face.

Josh: Oh yeah, yes, there you go.

Tommy: Oh, oh wow. Oh no.

Josh: It looks like a trail mix.

Andy: Oh, God.

Tommy: It looks like you're going fishing.

Andy: So, I'll go down and clear that out before. And then Bec thinks I've become, because I like early on, I was like, oh, this is so gross. And now I just pick them up with my hands. I'm like so used to them. And Bec thinks that's really gross. But we're at the other end. It's like COVID cases. It actually was tracking exactly. I was looking at modelling from the University of Melbourne and how many maggots I would get. We were hoping to get under a daily average of 1. Are you doing briefings? Yeah, every morning.

Josh: Your North Face jacket on, you know it's good news.

Andy: I'm pleased to announce that we have a maggot count of 12 today, bringing the rolling average down to 20.5. Sadly for those maggots, all of them have died. But yeah, so we're getting close to a zero maggot count. And look, I'm kind of grateful for them because they are the ones that got rid of the mouse and the snake. I get it.

Tommy: It is the circle of life. It's the circle of life right there.

Andy: Well, it's Elton John. I put him on as I clean up the maggots. I put Elton John on.

Josh: How do you like doing a podcast that's about comedy and sort of um, entertainment during a time like a pandemic? What's the conversations that you're having as a team around how you're going to tackle it?

Andy: We had one really short one, which was, let's not mention it. Like, it, it, it's all everyone was talking about, but our show doesn't really reflect topical things. It's more about our own adventures. We're starting up and the interaction with people. I noticed a lot of people writing in, um, more than, than ever to say thanks. Um, and particularly after that first lockdown, um, the first two weeks of the podcast going out, people were writing in saying, thanks, I'm using my— this is a good escape, and so on. So that kind of affirmed that decision for us, which was really nice. Um, and you don't realise that that's some people's escape, which is, again, we're chuffed with that. So Yeah, we didn't want to talk about it much there. And as soon as you kind of put that behind you, off you go. I remember when it was a similar thing. Our show doesn't do serious all that well. We're fine to, it just doesn't feel like the natural place we want to be because it's escapism and it's fun. And I remember—

Josh: Have you ever had a moment where you have gone serious and it sort of it's felt rewarding and it's sort of—

Andy: yeah, there's moments where you— where you— we— if we're both super passionate about something, there's moments that you feel compelled to and you want to and, and you do. Um, but for instance, when Trump got elected, um, that was a strange day across the world, but particularly in America. And I can't remember how much— I think it was probably— it could have been an hour of the show. Um, we have a lot of US listeners, and we just put the call out to them and just said, um, this is when we're doing live radio, does anyone want to talk about it? And we just kind of got people calling in from the US just saying how down they were. I know a lot of people were up because they were Trump supporters, but there was— it was a strange feeling, and reflecting that felt like the right thing to do when the world was just a bit confused as to what was about to happen. Um, and then that's a way that we did lean into it, but on the day Heath Ledger died, again, we were live on the radio and I recall going, okay, well, it was really sad and we wanted to acknowledge that, but also wanted, because we're in the afternoon, it's all that everyone had heard all day.

Josh: And Brad Blanks was the first, I think, Aussie to be there. I think from memory. Really?

Tommy: With Dan Illich?

Josh: Dan Illich and Brad Blanks. Yeah.

Andy: Wow. So we just— I'm— again, if I recall correctly, at the top of the show we just said, hey, really sad day for Heath and his family, um, really sad day for Australia and for all movie lovers. We acknowledge that, but we're going to do our best to, um, talk about other things today and take your mind off it. You've got it all day. And, uh, and, and that was kind of what we said at the headline, and then the rest of the show we just went on with it. And I think It— that, that to me felt like the right thing. There's nothing more to add in this— in that regard. Um, you can do tributes and stuff, but we'd had it, we'd heard it all day, and we thought we'd be the opportunity for people to maybe hear something different. And we've taken that approach a number of times.

Tommy: I feel like that's really putting your audience first and, and, and you— the brand of what your show stands for. Has there been times where you've wanted to talk about something but the show just isn't aligned with that. Like, it's not that you want to invent—

Andy: Yeah, I know what you mean. I reckon, I think there were times back in the day that we discussed, oh, should we be talking this, or it might be a serious topic that we're asking for calls on, and we tried it and it was kind of like, it felt like a massive U-turn. Like, it just felt like it's difficult to go from being so passionate about kids' meals for adults and having a huge campaign about that, or trying to raise funds to buy a hoverboard, to then turn around and go with something really serious. Because a lot of our comedy was based on taking silly things extra serious and being really earnest about the stupidness of it. And suddenly to be earnest about something that is, you know, quite meaningful is a harder thing. And I think your audience kind of goes, hang on, where are we? You know, and you just say it on the telly to everybody. So we chose those moments. The most recent one, I suppose, was we discussed with marriage equality, with that, the postal vote on— that was a really strange time. And Haim and I were passionate about marriage equality. And that was one where we went, okay, no, we want to say something here. We want to do something. We don't want to hide away from it. A lot of political things we don't— not to say we don't care about them, but don't feel like it's the forum for it. This is again the place you can come and escape. But we did, um, again, we were conscious to say you should vote this way— uh, sorry, not to say you should vote this way, but we did want to recognise that everyone should vote. And I was— and Hamish were both comfortable saying this is an important thing we are going to vote this way. We're not telling you what, which way to vote, but we think you should and get your ballot in. And it was a softer way of showing our position without telling people what to do. And I think that was— not that anyone probably listened to us anyway, but I feel like commentators at times tell people what to do, and I find that particularly off-putting, opposed to making a case as to why their going down this path and letting us make up for our own mind what we might like to do. And I, I certainly react better to the people that take that approach.

Josh: You, you described as the people's show. It feels like people are divided. Is— does that make life easier? Oh, sorry, harder, do you think, when you're coming— like, if you think about the early 2000s creating content and then creating a show in 2020?

Andy: It would if, again, if we decided to lean into those areas.

Josh: But don't you think that like, isn't it like you can say anything nowadays and people will politicise it? Like, that seems like the crazy thing is like, yeah, like, say, even especially the golf chat, golf chat earlier on today, highly political. Like, even like, say, the Trump stuff, right? Like, there'd be so many people triggered by that. And saying, you know, lefty media, blah blah blah. Like, is there—

Andy: Yeah, I mean, me saying Trump's not good at golf would probably incite some people's anger, but I think that— I think you're right. I think our community— that was the big difference between a podcast and a broadcast. And I think people, you know, the term broadcast is true, it's broad, it's— that's what it's designed to do. And you're designed to be as broad as possible. And I remember, um, it was David Gingell, um, who was head of Nine, um, and an amazing brain for television. He really taught Hamish and I a lot and became good mates, and he got us across to Channel Nine. He said that one of our first meetings, he says, because you as a creative, you want to be niche and you want to be edgy sometimes, and, and you feel that that's the cool spot to be. But he said, hey, just remember 'You're broadcasters, not narrowcasters.' And talking about the appeal of the show being widespread and that we should possibly lean into that. And, and that was really good advice because it's, it's, it's where we naturally play anyway. We like being inclusive and everyone having fun and it being family orientated, but hopefully there's enough cheekiness that it can play older, but kids can still tune in, all that kind of stuff. It wasn't like we're like, 'Oh, we need to make this as broad as possible.' It's just where we naturally played and Early on, I certainly felt like— I was like, oh, maybe I want to be edgier because I might want to be cooler, so to speak. But it wasn't really where I wanted to naturally play. And, and you kind of quickly realised you can probably have both, you know, in a certain way. Um, so yeah, for our community and, and the people listening to us, when we went to the podcast, I think we didn't have to be as broad Which is a nice freedom, I suppose.

Tommy: But what is the feeling when you've gone from the medium of radio, which is the broadcast, to the medium of podcasting?

Andy: I think it's not too different, but the deep in-jokes, like, and the deep, like, the way people interact with the show is so deep that if you're doing a radio show, you would have to constantly go, someone rings up and says a joke that is referencing, you know, something that's been a running joke for 8 years, you'd have to go, of course, yeah, referencing the—

Josh: you know, I think CB would say, CB would say, like, because we've— we sort of asked him to air cheque us, and one of the things that, like, just for a bit of an interesting thing, is like, you're serving your P1s too much. Like, no one's going to know these references and all that sort of thing. But do you think that, that, like, things have changed? Like, do you think that, like, with podcasting, like, is there an opportunity? Like, how do you grow? I guess, how do you— like, you're in a position where you've got an audience. Do you find that you're getting new listeners?

Andy: Yeah, yeah, we have. It's, um, we were surprised that, um, our podcast, as far as like the daily, the per-show download, obviously we had 5 shows a week, than the last week, but going to one, it actually— 5 times the amount of people started listening to the podcast. So we were— that was a surprise for us. So roughly, maybe 4 to 5, and we were like, oh wow, okay, people want— we— I was surprised because I didn't expect people to care that we left the radio that much. And perhaps they were like, oh yeah, I still liked those guys a bit, so I'm gonna find them. But they didn't have to do that when they could turn their radio on every day. So, that was a nice uptake. And then, yeah, from there, we still want the show to be accessible for all. It's not about going, mega fans, you will enjoy this. You'll have no idea where you're up to if you just tune in. I don't think that's ever where we want to go.

Josh: So, where's the nuance then? Like, so, how do you get the in-jokes while still being inclusive?

Andy: I think what we have decided is there are in-jokes that we're not going to try to explain.

Josh: Yeah.

Andy: And they just roll past, but they're moments. And so the deeper listener will laugh at those moments. But for those who don't know, hopefully they just fly on by and you didn't even know that you missed out on anything. Yeah. And so that's—

Tommy: Well, it's like being in a conversation with a group of people and there's a— someone makes a joke and you don't hear it. But you laugh because everyone else is laughing.

Josh: So, I feel like there's a version of listening to a podcast where you're like, "Haha, I'm not making a mean joke." There's a stickiness to that as well, right? Like, I think that there's a sense, I think especially with H&A, it's like you want to, when you listen to an episode, if you haven't listened to the other episodes, like there is that sense that you want to go back because like, hang on, this is something that's being mentioned here. I get it, it's funny, but I think like I need to go back.

Andy: Yeah, I agree. And I think that there's certainly— I have friends go, hey, what's all this about? You know, and I'll go and I'll explain it to them and they go, oh my God, that's hilarious. And so, yes, hopefully intrigue takes over and that builds into people going back and listening to more. And that's been fun about the pod— What we did with the podcast, there were some jokes, so, which we're in our third year coming up at the end of it. There were some jokes that we carried across from the radio days, but very, very few. We decided to try and create the whole new world and be podcast dedicated. And so it was nice. People can now go back to podcast 1, and if they were to listen in order from there, they would have— they'd be completely up to date for the podcast. You didn't need to be following Hamish Gnatty for 10, 20 years to get it. So, um, that was something that we were conscious of.

Tommy: So 40 shows a year, 40 years, you've got 37 years to go. How different— because creators, a lot of the ones I see online, you see them, they shift what they create, they shift their interests based on probably their, you know, their age or what they're into. What do you think you guys, like Blue Sky Thinking, The Hamish Andy Show, if it goes more niche based on the, you know, the medium of podcasting, what would it be?

Andy: Um, I— we've only got one trick, um, and so I think we'll keep doing that, which is essentially trying to make each other laugh, um, and hang out. And, and, uh, the good— the fun part about it is, you know, segments can come and go. You can get used to them. Some can, um, uh, can fall away. Um, Pizza Lotto has probably seen it, uh, the end of days, where, um you basically rang a pizza shop and tried to guess what pizza was coming out next out of the pizza oven. That's pizza lotto.

Josh: Oh, can we have that?

Andy: Yeah, it's great fun.

Tommy: So I think that's yes, Josh.

Josh: Yes.

Andy: Yeah, absolutely. So, but I feel like what I love and particularly about working with Haim he doesn't like doing the same thing for very long, um, or the same line of stuff. And we're both pretty— and I'm similar— we're both pretty aware when we feel like the tread is being worn off the tyres and we should put that aside. And even with the radio show, we only had one or two, or, you know, maybe two or three regular segments, um, because we liked having a bunch of segments that you can pull in any— on any given day if you felt like playing it, opposed to every Wednesday we're doing this, every, you know. Um, and there was some interesting discussions back in the day about that. The, the programmers would go, yeah, but you need to give your audience something to hold on to. And I, I tend to agree with that. If Wednesday we did a segment called Blast from the Past and, um, where we rang up random numbers and pretended that we went to primary school with them and see if you could convince them that you did, um, by bluffing, which was scary that you could on a lot of times. But, um, you know, the people would look forward to that. It's something for them to hold on to, opposed to the show could be anything, because— and that's also a good learning, I think, for us, was like, you need to give people enough things to hold on to, but then keep variety so it feels fresh each time for them. And that's a balance we try and do.

Josh: What about, uh, growing and like scaling an audience? Like, uh, what we've found in August, we were, you know, strategizing and thinking of ways and how we can, we can grow. And we realized, oh, we need to focus on all these other business things that we're, we're doing, and we couldn't focus on that specific thing. And we're like, what happens if we did?

Andy: Well, you and I talked about it at the time, hey? We're talking a lot about that stuff.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. And so, um, and a month ago, so like all of September, we're like, what happens if we don't have a single guest on? And we told ourselves that, you know, guests bring numbers and all that sort of thing. September, we had our biggest month of downloads ever, which is just this weird thing because we'd been using this lever that we thought was yeah, what was going to bring people to the, to the show. And it was— we, we spent so much time like having— like sometimes we'd have, I don't know, maybe 20 guests on a month. And it's quite exhausting doing that, like especially, um, you know, when you're in a pandemic. And so yeah, that made me question everything in regards to how we scale up or how we find new listeners. What are the levers that you guys have pulled on over the years to find new listeners?

Andy: Well, going back to that point about the guests and what you don't know, what, what, you know, we're throwing a lot of ingredients in a show and you don't rarely do you take one out and see if it tastes the same. Um, and so you, so you feel like every ingredient is important and or as important, but with Gap Year The first one season, we had celebrities. We did a Tonight Show slash travel show out of New York, and we had huge celebrities come on. Like, Susan Sarandon was in studio, Coldplay played live, Taylor Swift was in there. Like, but what was strange was the feedback was, we, we don't want these guys, people. Like, this— when, when Coldplay played, half our audience switched off, and And people were going, and it was the most kind of negative comments we've had because people have very, if they're tuning in for you, they know what you're getting. If they're tuning in for you, they're not generally, they're not going to be bagging you out. But a guest comes on and suddenly you're saying, you've got to like these people, even though Coldplay, I think they're amazing. I know they're actually, I've since learned that they're quite divisive as far as their audience. People either think they're really lame or think they're really cool.

Josh: And like Nickelback. I love Nickelback, by the way. Yeah, you don't like Nickelback, do you? I can tell. I don't think so. Coldplay, Nickelback's in the same category. Both great bands.

Andy: Yeah, well, that's the thing. You may be like— people would have that opinion, but again, it they're divided. And we realized, wow, okay, we're in a situation where we're trying to bring in stars to up our show, but it's actually causing some people to turn off. So do we— we had that discussion the second year, do we want to have any guests at all? And we dropped them. And second year rated much better than the first, um, because we went back to the core of what we did, which was travel and mucking around and seeing real people. Like, we went on the search for more real crazy people around the world, which was a the better content. Um, so yeah, as far as leavers, we don't have guests on our podcast anymore where we used to have a lot of them for the radio. Like, um, we might make an exception, but now we go, if we're having someone on, we need to be in love with it and we need to bring them into the world. Um, they're not just there to talk as a straight interview. There's too many of those. We need to bring them into our world. And so the listeners go, oh great, they're playing along with the thing we're all building together, opposed to stop down and look at me. So as far as the levers we pulled, I wouldn't say we're pulling any more levers. We probably dropped some off as we went. We dropped off things we don't think we need anymore, and we wanted to make it clear about, you know, what the show is and what it does. We've found it— I personally found it hard with the pandemic. I love live guests. When we say live, live listeners, we love having listeners come in and test them and do different things. And that interaction, I think, is really fun and important. And proud of how we can get through without doing that, but it's all been on the phone, etc. I'm looking forward to more live interaction. And also going out and getting up to some shenanigans would have been fun and has been part of our show. But so we look forward to bringing those things back in when we're allowed. Um, but we also are aware that you can't— when you're trying to build the audience, the— if the goal is just to build the audience, it's— I reckon it's, it's a— you're— it's a really hard task. Yeah. But if your goal is how can we make this show better How can we make it more interesting? Then your audience will build.

Josh: Well, that's what TJ and I are always talking about, the fact that interview shows are so popular because it is that common lever. But the thing is, you just end up with interview shows because, because it is a good strategy for a lot of, a lot of people from day one. If you do that, then like, so for instance, if Hamish and Andy, uh, back when you started, were known as like, you know, the, um Breakfast with the Stars like Kyle and Jackie O, it'd be, it'd be, it'd be a different story. But I think so, you then— there's a level of steadfastness that I feel that we have to do, which is like getting people to know us, be smaller but do it on using the levers that we want to then have sort of more creative control in the future.

Andy: I agree, I totally agree. And if you find If you then you can bring someone, if you find what you guys want to do just between the two of you without having to bring someone in and suddenly that's starting to roll, then when you bring someone in, it gives it the boost opposed to, you know, sitting at the level. And so that's the way we're viewing the guests at the moment. And there's definite times on the podcast you're like, oh my God, it'd be funny to get that person on because of this and this and this. But opposed to, oh, he's available for an interview, what will we do with him? That's kind of the—

Tommy: yeah, well, there's a lot of assumptions that are being made, and half the time we're just having a crack at something we don't know what's going to be the outcome. So your interview version, what we've done, it's like, what's the risk then of assuming the way it's worked?

Andy: Oh yeah, so you mean like, it's, it, once you've done something, you—

Tommy: yeah, yeah, and then, and then, because then that is just sort of like we're sort of taking feedback and then trying to say, well, because we all like to have certainty on a way something is working. And so for you guys, is it, you know, you come back and do the second gap year that is a completely different style, do you guys really sort of strategize around, okay, this is why it worked and this is what we need to do more of?

Andy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you don't want to get caught too hard bashing yourself up. Um, and you'll also find that not everyone in your team— I'm not talking about Hamish, but like in the broader team— not everyone necessarily wants to, to be a part of that process. And, and you shouldn't force people to have to be. So yeah, we did it for all the creative and all the back of house. Like, we basically went through— because we were travelling different countries, we had to employ like 40 new people every, every show. So even the people that you relied on in New York, they're not coming to— we can't— normally used to take about 8 to 10, and then you've got another 40 to employ. So going across beforehand to interview everybody to try and fill the positions. The problem you had in Season 1, because say if the graphics guy was terrible in Season 1, and he wasn't, but I just say if that was as a hypothetical and that was a problem, you might go, "Gee, we put too much workload on the graphics person. We need to bulk up that department. Let's have 3 people in there." you get across and then you realise one guy's awesome and you don't need the other two and you've wasted your money. So, it's hard to kind of balance those type of things.

Josh: It's iterating. You can only learn until you do, right? Like, I think that that's what we're figuring out. And that's why whether it's 10 years or 40 years, the outcome, all we know is that we're not going to work out whether something is right or wrong until we do it.

Andy: And then we liked going, I mean, I personally like going what did we give? Say I did, I did an exercise at the end with Tim of the first ones, like with regards to who we employed and all the departments and how we worked logistically. And the exercise, and I know this sounds quite down, but it's like, let's review every— because you review everybody, every employee and their work. Let's review it to the prism though of what if it was our fault? What if we didn't give them the best chance for success? Could so easily go, oh, that person sucked, they were terrible. But if you turn around and go, okay, that person did suck, what could we have done better to give them a better chance of success? And we kind of found a lot of the time we're like, oh yes, that person kind of sucked because we didn't brief them well enough, or we actually didn't give them enough time, or actually their office was over there where they should have been sitting next to this person. And all these things Sometimes it came back to, no, they just sucked. And we, you know, that's fine. But like, uh, but if we took the responsibility, that was a way we could ensure that the next time round we weren't going to make the same mistake. Um, and, and so we did that from a logistic back of house thing. And then creatively, we all sat together and Hayman and I sat down and we listed every element of the show, like graphic, voiceover person, everything you could think of that. And, and Ryan and Tim had put all that up, and we basically had 3 columns: keep, ditch, maybe. And one— in a singular day, we went through every single thing and just put a tick alongside all of them, and then went, okay, they're the elements we want to keep. Here are the maybes. What would we change about the maybes to potentially get them in this new look show?

Tommy: And It's basically The Apprentice.

Josh: You are Donald Trump.

Andy: I feel like I'm more of a Mark Boris.

Josh: Yeah, no, I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Mark Boris does a lot of weights. He's ripped.

Andy: No, so it was an interesting thing to go do that. And then once you've got that set, you don't have to keep coming back to it. Like, you know, we did that because it was wrong. And then as soon as it feels right, just enjoy it, I suppose.

Josh: Yeah, you're a— you've got a really good business mind, and I think— but so you combine your business mind with your creativity and your how you think about audience and content. Like, I think like that's the, that's the superpower, like that combo for you. Uh, radio, I've, uh, I feel like there's definitely a—

Andy: that's actually very nice. I didn't know what to say because it'd be all good, but I just said thank you.

Josh: No, it's true. And so like within the radio industry, I catch myself— I think that, uh, Tommy and I are in a bit of a moment where we realise that like we used to reference it a lot, or it used like— we'd be like looking at what the radio industry was doing, and like that was like a bit of energy for me where it's like, they're doing it all wrong and we're going to do it another way. And then you sort of like build your own thing and your own industry, and then it's like it becomes less and less of a thing. Uh, but if— because you do have such an understanding of the radio industry, if you were a CEO of a radio network in 2020, thinking about what you just described, even then, just from a business perspective, what would you be doing if you were CEO?

Andy: Sell it. No, um, No, I, I actually think that radio's absolutely still got a place. Um, I would, I would probably— it's, it's a tough one because it requires more resources, but I think local is an area, and local community is an area where you can really lean on radio still. Um, not sure if you saw the ratings this week for 3AW, but, um, in— during a pandemic, people are going to turn to talk— want talkback, want— and particularly when they're stuck in their homes, like, uh, Ross and Russ in the morning rated a 26 share, um, which is again the difference between the commuting person.

Josh: Um, is that also like a demographic that like— so because you talk about like, um, radio is, uh, broadcast, this broadcast medium, I almost feel that radio is actually just becoming what podcasting is, which is its own niches. And it just so happens that an AM band has a larger demographic or niche, which is older Australians.

Andy: And so, yeah, you can see like Gold FM is number one breakfast show FM. It plays old music. Yeah, like we— it's all getting older. No one is— no kid is going, I want to find out what the number one song is. I better listen to the hot hits. Like, if they go online. So I think I would skew everything older if I was trying to hang on to radio. If the CEO—

Josh: what about like if you had— if you weren't married to the the licence and you weren't married to even, uh, radio was the thing, because there's a lot of great talent in radio stations just from a storytelling, creativity, content perspective. Where do you think their place is? Not just like a Band-Aid fix where it's like, oh look, we probably can squeeze a little bit out of this market for another 5 years before we're going to have to really deal with this issue. What, like, what do you actually think for, like, if it was a if it was a strategy that was— because a lot of these have podcasts, like SEA has podcast assets like PodcastOne, they're playing in this space. What, what's the doubling down or what's the stripping back? Like, what's the specific advice that you would give as a CEO?

Andy: Um, I think you've got to find the shows which have a strong connection with their audience as— and they're building a community. Because people like being a part of something. Um, and so that, that'd be the— if, if you can look at your shows and go, oh yeah, people love the feel and look and being a part of this, I'd hang on to those. Um, with regards to that, look, it's really hard to tell that there's a lot of shows you, you wonder with a lot of shows like what type of listeners are jumping on and why. And I think that's it— I think it was set and forget for a long time because everyone was just tuning into radio because you drive along. But now you can, with all the podcasts and Spotify and all those things in your car, Apple CarPlay, you just got so many more options. So the— what is, what is the reason to, to be, to be tuning into these people now, uh, opposed to others? And I think that's a really hard question. I think again it's about creating communities that you can get on board and be a part of.

Josh: Makes sense. Uh, thank you, like, not only for, uh, being on the podcast twice, but you've, you've helped us a bunch off air as well, just from a, you know, uh, you're giving your perspective because, yeah, as I said, you've got that three-pronged approach, which is super, super handy.

Tommy: If we let go of anyone in our business, it's because Andy's been using the whiteboard and moving it off like The Apprentice.

Andy: I'm going to say yes to, uh, I'm going to yes tick to Josh. It's a maybe for Tommy. Maybe it's not a no.

Josh: Maybe not. Exactly.

Andy: What can we do with Tommy to put him into the yes pile? But I would definitely put a cross against me after this episode. Too much golf. Uh, guys love it. You love what you guys do. It's, um, it's fascinating. And, uh, yeah, you're ahead of the curve.

Josh: Thanks, Andy. Uh, Andy's got a podcast called Hamish and Andy. Uh, you should, you should, uh, download it if you like. Otherwise, we'll see tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.