Consumption, Media & The Tech Giants

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 826.

Tommy: Happy hump day, Gronks. What's happening? What's going on?

Josh: Um, look, not much. Got my coffee. Didn't ask for it, but Bri gave it to me. Thank you, Bri. Appreciate it.

Tommy: Yeah, I had a coffee, so I couldn't meditate this morning. I woke up, showered, and then Bodhi was up, which isn't always great, but you know, you take— you win some, you lose some. He slept all night in his own bed, so I was happy about it. But at 6:45, uh, he went to bed about 7:30 and went to sleep at about 8:30. And he, uh, the other night I, um, got into bed with Amy and Bodhi was in bed and we're just about to start watching a little movie. And I said to Amy, did you put Bodhi's nappy on? And she's like, uh, no, I thought you did. And I was like, oh no. So I had to get up and go in. I'm just like, please don't piss, please don't have pissed yourself, please don't piss yourself.

Josh: And what time was it?

Tommy: It was like 9 at that point. Like, I'd totally forgotten. No, so what happened, yeah, so what happened was we got him showered before dinner, and I'm not going to put a nappy on him before dinner because he's still got ages before he goes to bed. And so he's in his pajamas, so he looks like he's about to go to sleep. And so he finishes dinner, and then I I tapped out and said, Amy, can you please do the, you know, do the deed? And she took him to bed. And then that's how it just sort of slipped through. Never happened before. It's funny as a parent, like the things that you always stuff up. And then there's some that like, I'm surprised that hasn't happened before.

Josh: And so Beau didn't even bring it up. He didn't say, hey guys.

Tommy: Not wearing a nappy.

Derek: Nah.

Josh: He was loving it.

Tommy: But he pissed himself and it was all good. We changed him, put a towel under him and the bed wasn't actually that wet. It all went on his little pants.

Josh: What did he say? Was he pissed off?

Tommy: He didn't know. He was still asleep. It's so cute. Like, it'd be like, imagine if I came in to change your pants during the night and— but you helped me but didn't get up. Like, he pushes his hips up, so he lifts his bum up and then you can— it's— he's helpful while he's asleep.

Josh: Do you think he's just pretending to be asleep because he's embarrassed?

Derek: Nah, nah.

Tommy: Very hard for kids to do that. But anyway, I, I had a coffee with Bode this morning. We went out, got one, then went for a skateboard. And, um, and then I did— and then I meditated. But I was like, I can't tell if my— because of the stimulation, uh, from the coffee, I, I felt like my mind was more messy, or I had just have a messy mind. And so some days I know that I— my mind's a bit more racy than others. Yeah, isn't it funny how it like— I slept well, you know, it just could just be various things, but you can't always tell what your head's going to be like.

Josh: Did you think the night before though, were you sensing like if you look, are there any— no, anything that happens the night before that would then lead to that?

Tommy: No, no, because there's not really— there wasn't many worries. It's just like It's like, if anything, it's like it should be Swade. And so in the times that you know it should be Swade, like if it's hectic and you've got a million things to do, then you're like, okay, I can connect the dots. But sometimes it's just messy mind.

Josh: And so morning meditation versus afternoon meditation, all that stuff. Have you ever done like a good round of doing late evenings or afternoon meditation?

Tommy: Oh, 100%, my mind's, a bit messier in the evening. Like, I just feel like it's, it's like had more stimulation, right? It's like it's, it's, uh, processed more. It's processed more throughout the day, so it's like you can feel the fatigue. And so the morning time is great. I mean, it's— but then it's the interesting thing about the meditation practise I'm doing, Sam Harris's Waking Up app, is that you try— you're trying to create a separation from— are you trying to not create such a separation between the formal practise and every moment of every, of every minute? And so you're trying to not— because I, I even feel like you can become attached to the time spent sitting there, like it's like transfixed on, yeah, that's my 10 minutes. And so the point, the The benefit comes when it's, sure, do your formal practice, but then it's about how do you bleed that formal practise across the whole day and make it training experience.

Josh: It's training for the rest of the day.

Tommy: Exactly.

Josh: And if the day is gaming day, because the thing is, you being annoyed in the practice, in training, isn't actually that hurtful to anyone or to your day or whatever. It's actually like Everything that happens after the meditation that matters, I guess.

Tommy: Yes, exactly. And so, and that's what— there's words of encouragement at the end of each session that can be around the, you know, um, take a moment at the, at the point of transitioning between a task. So it could be getting up from your desk to go get some water should— can be a trigger point for you to become really mindful about your existence and, and your feeling and your state, and then sort of dropping some stuff because it, you know, you just get caught up and move into a sort of— you snowball away from mindfulness. And so if you can sort of not have that happen and stay a bit more present, it's, you know, a little bit of it is habit formation as well.

Josh: Like what you're talking about, they talk about in Tiny Habits where it's like BJ Fogg talks about it. It's, um, uh, yeah, like, like those transitional moments. I know, like, this specific thing around closing your laptop and finishing work and like, oh yeah, shutting down, like going through a bit of a routine or process. Especially right now if you're in Melbourne or you're working from home, having a ritual that you do every single day where it's like go to the Apple logo click shutdown, close laptop, put keyboard on laptop, put it into the other room. Like, those things make a massive difference.

Tommy: Yeah, and so it's checking out from one thing because then, say, if being in the work can get you to a point of feeling sort of anxious and then that bleeds into everything else, so that kind of full stop at the end of a task to break this pattern, whatever it be, is probably— yeah, that's positive.

Josh: So that's why phones are so fucked up. Oh, because, um, so I, um, I was listening to a podcast, Nikki Glaser, who, um, Jack Post, uh, his podcast, um, Jackie Rhodes Studios, he had her on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. Anyway, Nikki has a podcast, she's a comedian, uh, she's had a Netflix special, which is great. She's been doing daily, like every weekday, been doing a podcast during sort of this weird time. It's fucking awesome.

Tommy: Yeah, good on her.

Josh: But she was talking about, um, this book which you've probably heard about because you're on socials and you follow Joe Rogan. Are you across this book?

Tommy: I don't know, what is it?

Josh: So it's called Irresistible by a guy named Adam Alter, and, um, it actually came out in 2017. Uh, but I was listening to it last night. Like, the tagline of the book is why we can't— or the subheading is that why we can't stop checking, scrolling, clicking, and watching.

Tommy: Amen. That's exactly what we're doing.

Josh: Yeah. And so I guess, I mean, so it's already just a couple of chapters in, a lot of relevant stuff.

Tommy: Oh yeah. And what is the connection for you? Is there something that resonates, um, or everything.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, the thing is, you see, you see why it's so challenging in this time. So I was thinking about, okay, they talk about 2008, um, the average phone time was like 18 minutes, and now it's like over 2 hours. Okay. Um, but then I was thinking about, um, the problem is I think that I'm using my phone for too many things. So, it's funny, Nikki was talking about in her podcast about she was getting— she's got 600,000+ people on her Instagram. She gets back to like a lot of DMs, like majority of DMs. And she's sort of had this realisation. She's a very interesting listen, actually. Just in general, her podcast is called "You Up?" And why it's interesting is it's very similar to sort of the format of, uh, one-trick Tony, where it's a single person chatting, like an individual chatting. And so you feel like you're sort of in the room having conversation. But Nikki is pretty unfiltered. So she was on antidepressants and her hair was falling out and she thought that was the reason why. And so in the last few weeks she's gone off her antidepressants. And so you basically are listening to an individual who is really fucking struggling about all this stuff. And yeah, it's very interesting. Anyway, she was just talking about, I think I'm gonna have to get off, um, like I'm not going to be able to respond to people on, um, social media anymore. I just think that's, that's the thing. Yeah, I feel like I'm further along even though I have way smaller issues in that regard when it comes to, you know, I've got 2,000 followers or something on Instagram. But the thing for me, the next challenge is I do like iMessage. I like text message. I like texting people. It's the only way I'm staying connected with people.

Tommy: Yeah, well, you're not texting randoms. That is the one thing about text messages or iMessages. And unless you've somehow— you're just playing, you've got to a point you're so desperate you're just typing in a random number, and if it comes up as a blue bubble You're like, it's game on.

Josh: But you just see the issue where it's like, if you wanted to get rid of screen time, how do you do it without isolating yourself?

Tommy: Um, yeah, man, it's very hard, especially— I think it's the conundrum. Say when that book was written back then, I don't think there would have been as many people with profiles online or built communities. I thought you said— sorry, 2008. I thought you said—

Josh: oh no, so 2008 there was the study on the, um, the 18 minutes a day or whatever.

Tommy: Oh yeah, yeah. So even back then, if that's— that's— sorry, what I was referencing, 2008, like, think about there wasn't as many people that had platforms like today. There wasn't as many social media outlets. Oh, there was, but there— now it's just easy to gain the traction.

Josh: Like, so 2008 The iPhone 3G came out and that was the first iPhone to ever come to Australia. So, it's like very, very early days. Like, I think I got an iPhone September maybe of 2008.

Tommy: Fuck that. I mean, you were too. That's first. I remember seeing my friend Rob had one and I was just blown away. The sort of fat bubbly one and it had like a white back on it.

Josh: So the white back, the silver back, that's the original. So that never officially came to Australia. So you had to—

Tommy: He got it. Yeah, it was like, get it in the States and then get it.

Josh: Yeah, my multimedia teacher had it. It was a bit of a top dog.

Tommy: It was such a flex back then, like, oh, you knew he had contacts in America, in the land of the great. And so I remember that, but I was in, I was in New Zealand around that time on my, uh, you know, world tour with the stripping troupe. And I, I remember I had like a, um, maybe it was the colour screen.

Josh: Was it, was it 2000? Is it 2008, the iPhone 3G, or was it 2009? So I feel like I want to know because it's going to piss me off otherwise. Anyway, I just remember 2008, July 2008, it was released. Yeah, sorry.

Tommy: Yeah, I think I literally went around then And I went to— but I just remember having like, when you travel now, you just take your fucking iPhone, you plug in a SIM. I remember having a piece of shit phone and I just bought a SIM over there, same, same deal. But it wasn't thinking about data, I was just thinking about being able to text people. And that's not even that long ago, really. And what I was— and I spent a lot of time on my phone, and I've thought, I've thought back on those times where like trying to look at now and then, and you definitely like— there was still— what were we doing? I mean, it was time spent in text message or thinking. Maybe there was more thinking back then, just thinking about stuff.

Derek: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: I wonder if experiences— on, um, Hump Day Replay just came out today, uh, Jess was talking about her frustrations of when she was in Europe. She was in Europe like straight out of high school. She's working at the London Eye. I forgot about that. It's a good story. But she's pissed off because social media wasn't— Instagram wasn't really a thing then. Yeah. And so, she's considering going back and posting all of the old photos, almost like what we've done with Big Media Company. Yeah, yeah. To show people that we were once cool.

Tommy: Yeah, well, it's like, yeah, I did once travel, and I was like, travel once. Yeah, and I once travelled when there was no such thing as— or you weren't as tapped in to connect. Like, I remember using internet cafes even in New Zealand. Like, even in Europe when I went in, I can't even remember, 2011, I reckon. Yeah, 2010, 2011, I was still over using internet cafes in Italy. Like, that seems ridiculous now.

Josh: The internet cafe thing I missed. I don't think I've ever been in an internet cafe. But I always—

Tommy: You never have? Really? You know, there's one, there's a few still remaining in Melbourne and there's some big ones, but then there's like one on Brunswick Street in Fitzroy. And it's, dude, it is— I took Bodhi in there and I met— when Bodhi was young, I made this little series on Instagram. And it was like teaching Bodhi life lessons with Bodhi. I was like, and he was in a pram and I literally just walked past and I was like, this is gonna be fun. And I walked in, I was like, now this is what they call an internet cafe. When you're older, these will not be around. And so they're on their last legs and it really—

Josh: Libraries have become internet cafes. Yeah. I mean, libraries, like you can get internet at libraries.

Tommy: Yeah. So that's like the, it's a free version. It's that, but then they even offer Wi-Fi. I wonder what the computers are actually like at cafes. I mean, you could go to the Apple Store. You can go to the Apple Store.

Josh: And so, I do remember, fuck, I remember the going to a hotel or wherever it is and it has the one computer. So, I remember like, you know, going to New South Wales or whatever as a kid and it's the one computer that you can go on and you go into Hotmail and someone else has logged in previously because no one's got any fucking idea. Like, this is 2004 or whatever, no one's got any consideration of, oh, like, my shit can get fucking hacked. And so they've accidentally left things logged in and you— because you need to fucking print something, you know, like, do hotels needing to print something.

Tommy: Yeah, in Italy, the same. Even just the last time Amy and I went for our honeymoon before Bodhi was born, so like 4 years ago, in Sorrento, Italy, there was the FOIA computer that I jumped onto. But I mean, that's where the feeling of being connected is like at your base level. And so as soon as you're disconnected from the internet, like, I mean, that's you, you love a strong internet connection. It's one of your brand values. When I think about Josh, I think about at least 100, megabit up and down.

Josh: Definitely.

Tommy: You know what I mean?

Josh: Well, and so this is the thing, is trying to work out, um, Josh speed test dancing. I do love a speed test. Actually, my dad asked, um, for a screen grab of my speed test. I sent it to him. Dirty. Yeah, so he asked for it, I sent it to him, and then like 2 minutes later I, I, um, get a message back from him. And he's like, nah, it's my— oh no, I wish it's my son's internet connection. And so dad has been fucking sending it around to his mates. Oh mate, what a dirty dog, just flexing on his son's speed test. I don't like— I was, for some reason, I was like chuffed that dad was proud that we had 400 up and down.

Tommy: Yeah, look, Josh, he was a little fucking shit, but mate, he impresses my buddies when I fucking send around the work I wish. Yeah, he's it.

Josh: The, um, it's so funny. Did you write back and say, Dad? Yeah, yeah, I just said, yeah.

Tommy: What did he say? Oh mate, sorry, I'm a bit embarrassed about that.

Josh: No, no, he— no, because I'm pretty sure he's just like, can you send it? Because he's always sort of like, you know, for something I want to show. Like, he did sort of mention he wanted to show something. What did he say? Um, oh no, I didn't even Oh, that's right. I was on a FaceTime with him at the time, and so he said, I wish— it's actually my son's at his apartment and it's Wi-Fi. And, um, yeah, so obviously he's, um, yeah, I was talking to him at the time, um, on FaceTime.

Tommy: Uh, slight sort of U-turn, a slight sort of, uh, do a U-turn, send in another direction. Um, we need to give kudos where it's due. One of the best domain names— solid. Now actually, you're the domain guy, so I need to get your thoughts on it. Matt Diavella, slowgrowth.com.

Josh: I mean, it's a great domain name.

Tommy: This is a great domain name, and he now owns it, and he's just launched his online course which came out on the 18th, so yesterday.

Josh: The site looks beautiful, doesn't it?

Tommy: Oh, it's magnificent.

Josh: I mean, floating Diavella at the— like, it is a, um, they've done a fucking great job.

Tommy: They've done a great job. And I think he may have modelled the whole course off us because we're fucking growing slowly.

Josh: Slow growth, slow growth, slow growth, slow growth.

Tommy: Um, but I highly recommend you go cheque it out if you've got the Instagram too, Slow Growth.

Josh: You can go there, but their first course is all around simple habits.

Tommy: Yeah, which is, I guess, what we're talking about. The habit— well, we're talking about the habits that we've formed without thinking, which is the phone stuff, the jump on your computer, Ctrl+T when you're in Chrome and you type Facebook, and then you realise that you're fucking on Facebook. Yeah, that's a habit that I've got that I need to kick, and then I just usually— I quit out of it. I'm like, I didn't even want to do that. It's just like a tick.

Josh: Well, this is what's great about the deleting of the apps But I think that the next version is it's trying to work out what bits matter for your job. Like, did it ever— when I retired from social media a couple of years ago, a year and a half ago, did it ever impact the business, do you think, or what we were doing?

Tommy: No, no, I don't think so. Um, if— because if— so what you need to do though is take stock of where you're at now. So it's perspective. Where are we now, where were we back then. And so we have grown, and that was a part of the journey. So if you'd gotten off for the whole time, you could probably see if— how it'd be different. But what you're saying is it is literally what you think about it is going to be what's true for you. And so if you're living in a world of thinking it matters, and so you're in it thinking it And then if you get out and you think it doesn't matter, it's going to feel like it, it does because you're thinking that. But then maybe you'll build up enough information and data after 6 months of not being on social media. But it's pretty painful, right? That's where people— why people don't do it, because if you have that mindset, you're most likely not going to do it. But if you could think it's not going to impact my business because this, that, and the other, and then stick at it It's a more— that's a more sort of easy on yourself, easy on your mind approach.

Josh: Well, because the thing is too is I think we spend so much time on the devices thinking we're doing the business stuff, but we rarely actually do it. So I think that if I was to get really specific and say, okay, Thursdays I'm going to download these apps and I've blocked out 2 hours and I'm going to post, and I'm going to look at all the feeds I want. Like, do all of that in a really controlled time and then delete. I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but it would be cool to have a button that you could press that's sort of like an unbox button, and you click on it on your phone and it opens a vault of apps that are only available, but they actually, they, they, they're removed from your phone. And so when you click it, yeah, it re-downloads them.

Tommy: Surely, surely someone's created that.

Josh: Well, I don't know, how would you do it? Because it needs to be in the App Store.

Tommy: Yeah, it'd be like a—

Josh: you've seen all the Fortnite stuff that's happening?

Tommy: What's going on with Fortnite?

Josh: So, um, there was, there's all the antitrust stuff that's been happening a bunch. Basically Apple, Google, all of these, um, companies becoming too big. Uh, I think it's Epic, the company behind Um, Fortnite—

Tommy: Epic Games is the name of the company—

Josh: is the name of like the gaming company or whatever. Yeah, uh, they changed— this is going back a week now— but they, they changed their, um, uh, policy around how people could buy like the in-app credit type stuff. So if you wanted to buy the coin, so they reduce the price and you, I think, by 30% or something and you could buy it from them through their, through their app. The thing is, uh, in Apple's terms, terms and conditions, you can't do an in-app purchase that isn't through the App Store. So that's why, like, my MasterClass thing was a clusterfuck, because it's like I, I bought it through, uh, on my Apple TV, which means it's like an Apple subscription, and then you have to deal with all of that. Um, and so anyway, Epic decided, they're like, you can buy directly through us through the app. And then Apple obviously retaliates and says, well, no, that's against the terms of service. And so they removed Fortnite from the App Store. So they've removed Fortnite from the App Store. Then, uh, the, uh Epic have then come out and they have, um, so Fortnite have released all of this information about what Apple's doing and have basically suing them now.

Tommy: Wow. Have they got a case?

Josh: Is that—

Tommy: yeah, it's an answer.

Josh: Yeah, so I saw a bunch of people saying, uh, like, um, Epic are fucked, like taking on Apple, but it's actually like they really do have a place to stand with this. Because like, I remember, um, Google, uh, being sued in an antitrust case with, um, I think it was with Android or Chrome in general, uh, and you, you could only search through using Google. And so a bunch of the other companies were like, hey, that's anti-competitive, you've got too much of a monopoly. Huge amounts of people use Chrome, and so they were forced to then provide the feature where you could change in that search bar whoever you wanted. Um, yeah, from a search perspective. And so, no, I reckon that it's so good that Epic is doing this because every time— like, the kicker is every time someone does an in-app purchase within Fortnite, something like 30% of that money goes to Apple. And so obviously Epic is a huge game company, so they can afford to do all of, all of this sort of stuff. But think about the smaller apps. Think about like how many people are, um, uh, you know, impacted through having such a large chunk taken every single time.

Tommy: Yeah. And, and so does that remove Fortnite from people's computers? Like, if they've shut it out?

Josh: So if you've got— if you've, if you currently have, I believe, and I think Google has done the same, they've removed the, the app as well. So I think that where it currently stands, this was yesterday, they are, um, uh, you cannot download the app from the App Store. You won't be able to get updates, but if you've already installed the app, you can still use it. Okay. Actually, do you know who would be good to call? Scooter. Because you reckon he knows? I mean, his kids. I wonder if the kids have been to— Fortnite's the one that the kids all play, yeah?

Derek: Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, his older kids play it, so they're making a fair bit of money.

Josh: I think he— Let's call Scooter because I'm curious to see if he knows about this stuff.

Tommy: He's probably still in bed.

Josh: He could be in bed working from home.

Tommy: Yeah, maybe he's doing a podcast.

Derek: Hi, you've rung Derek. Please do not leave a message on here, I don't listen to them. Send me an SMS or use another media or try and call the guy. Thank you.

Tommy: Oh, that's hilarious! I haven't heard that one before.

Josh: There's a lot of those. Yeah, what does that mean, Scoot?

Tommy: Email. Oh, do you remember when you had your email on your voice message?

Josh: I think that was good, no?

Tommy: Um, a bit long, but I mean, it's— I'd prefer it more than just having left an email, a voicemail, saying I don't listen to these voicemails. See who doesn't have a voicemail? Jessica Lucas.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: Producer Jess.

Josh: As a producer, surely.

Tommy: I mean, I thought that Yeah, I mean, but she posted for the first time on Instagram in a year yesterday. Scooter's just come out of retirement.

Josh: Scooter just tried calling me back. Here we go, hang on.

Tommy: Here we go.

Derek: I'm busy right now, please don't leave a message.

Tommy: Now this guy's done.

Josh: No, I feel like Scooter's got like, I'm sure he'll have something to say about this, buddy. This is a—

Tommy: I'm gonna put $10 on the—

Josh: Scooter, you're on the Daily Talk Show right now. How are you?

Derek: Hello. Good, thanks.

Josh: That's good, mate. Um, you're in there, mate. Do you know about the Fortnite drama?

Derek: Uh, yeah, a little bit. I get, I get a bit of— hang on. Yeah, I was just about to ring my niece who's 21 today. Oh, uh, nearby with some signs to wave outside her window.

Josh: Oh, that's cute.

Tommy: Oh, that's cute.

Josh: So this Fortnite thing, so apparently it's off the, um, Apple App Store and things like that. Are you across any of this? You can say no if you don't know anything.

Derek: Yes, yes, I am. Tom's pretty upset because some of his mates play with phones and that's not on there. He's got— apparently it's on my phone and he jumped on it immediately to assess the situation and he came up with a, "It is not there.

Josh: It is not accessible." Oh no, that's very annoying.

Tommy: How's a kid that is how old, 11, 12? No, he's younger. Yeah, 12. How's a 12-year-old deal with this kind of setback in life? What's his vibe?

Derek: Doesn't affect him whatsoever. A couple of his mates it has, but you know, I don't think that's affected him.

Josh: So he has it, he's fine.

Derek: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm all right, Jack.

Josh: Yeah. How's it—

Derek: what about the Google thing? Have you covered that one?

Josh: What's the Google thing?

Tommy: Well, the open letter.

Derek: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah, I did, I did read. I didn't go into it too much. I thought that their photo was a bit average. I thought like from a lighting perspective, like, is this an internal job?

Tommy: Well, yeah, so they, they released an open letter. The managing director on behalf of Google Australia, Mel Silva, wrote. And I thought it was— I saw someone on Facebook share the link to it and I thought, oh, their account's been hacked for sure and they've posted some dodgy link. But no, it is real. It's an open letter to Australians, and some of the key headlines are: the way Aussies search every day on Google is at risk from new regulations.

Josh: And so is this the regulations around them being charged for, like, to, to put people's content up? Is this like the news outlets and stuff?

Tommy: Proposed law: the News Media Bargaining Code would force us to provide you with a dramatically worse Google search and YouTube. Could lead to your data being handed over to big news businesses and would put the free service you use at risk in Australia. And so they're really pushing around there.

Derek: What do you think? Oh, and it was a bit of an emotional roller coaster for me because number one, it was— even though I can't stand our federal government, you know that, um, but Google don't get to say that, you know what I mean? It's like It's like, it's like, you know, teasing your own uncle sort of thing. You don't get to join in, right? So, and then it got to the point where it said— the wording was a bit weird. I'd be interested to know what someone a bit more investigative thinks, but the wording said something like, we will have to show them how to get that data. How's that for weird wording? It didn't say we will have to give them the data. It said we will show them how to get that data.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, it's hard, isn't it? Because you've got two— you've got Google, who, um, even though their whole, you know, catchcry is, you know, do no evil or whatever it is, um, and then you've got sort of, um, mainstream media, which from public sentiment point of view get a, um, a bad rap, or that like people don't necessarily, uh, you know, if you think of, uh, News Corp and all that sort of stuff and Murdoch and like, you know, gets a, um, bit of negativity around it. Yeah, I feel potentially like there's a middle ground. Like, I think, um, if, if we think about it not— I'd be curious to see if you took the big news thing out of it and you're looking at it like an independent news level I wonder what Google's doing in that regard, because it sounds like they've got like— if, if they are making money through sending people to other people's content, or also even serving some of that content through snippets and things like that, should the content creators or the people who make it get some cash or have some control over it?

Derek: Yeah, it almost feels like a drug dealer moaning about it becoming legal.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I reckon there's probably—

Derek: yeah, go on. Yeah, when you read it, you start off going, yeah, what's going on? What is this stupid government? What freedoms are they taking now? And then as you read through, you kind of go, all right, so the argument is between news. And I know news is just rubbish at the moment, bad news, Murdoch and all that. But there's this like, oh, they're making us put news up as search results instead of businesses that pay us. Yeah, it was very hard to get on board and get passionate about that.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, do you need like— so we're— Scooter, we're just talking about phone use and things like that. Like, is Google— like, what do we need from Google? Google's doing everything for us. But like, TJ, do you think we— do we need— do we need Google to be doing all that? Like, do we need Google to be looking after our news?

Tommy: Well, in terms of— so because it's pushing around the curation of what you'll receive when you search, and so they're in charge of obviously spitting out what they think based on their workings out. And so I don't know, I think this is where it falls into people don't really— they have the experience, so they won't know what's affecting them until it changes, and then you're like, this is rubbish. And so they're thinking from a product point of view, this is going to make our product horrible because we've spent all this time trying to make it right for the consumer, but then they're also working out in that process how to make a fuckload of money.

Josh: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, Scooter, how are you getting your news right now?

Derek: Uh, well, I've kind of gone, uh, look after my own mental health, and I just, well, I just watch YouTubes of American, uh, progressives.

Josh: Yeah, sure. Yeah, you're the Young Turks, that's what you're into.

Derek: I'm not, I'm not after information, I'm just after—

Josh: you're okay, just getting some reassurance that someone in America, someone in America cares.

Derek: That's all I care, you know, news is coming from the ABC on the TV now, now that we're home all the time. We watched free-to-air for so long.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Derek: I just feel that this Google thing is probably— they're getting a bit late night. I mean, all they have to do is make it like TV in the old days, provide the service and then provide the ads in the space where the ads are.

Josh: Yeah. And so this is, this is the problem in general.

Derek: This is forever.

Josh: Well, so this is the, this is the problem at the moment where Facebook, Twitter, are they a platform or are they, you know, content creators or curators or whatever it is? If you're a platform, there's legislation in the States which says you are not responsible for what's on the platform. So if someone says something racist or whatever it is, or if they say like from a freedom of speech point of view, they say anything Facebook, Twitter, all of that sort of thing, not responsible. The problem is that, uh, what Twitter is doing, whilst it might have, um, grounds for— like, I, I understand why they're doing it. So say for instance it's like the, um, the fact checker that they do. So it's like they've done this with Trump a few times where it's like, get the real facts. Um, is it Twitter's job to be telling it. Like, I feel like Twitter should be fucking hands-off. Even if Trump is throwing a heap of bullshit, I think it's a dangerous thing to have a company making the call on whether to put a fucking fact-checker on and, and what their truth is versus— like, I think that should just be a funnel of shit and then us as consumers can deal with it.

Derek: Well, we're not all thinkers and free thinkers, you see. Think about the nuclear weapons, right? At the very beginning of all that, number one, it's abhorrent, the use of nuclear weapons, like in Japan, right? But there was no thought of disarmament at that stage. It was only when the bad guys got hold of it that we thought about it. And the bad guys got a hold of more of them and were in secret, and it became more and more scary. Uh, so you end up with an arms race of misinformation, and that's, that's my fear.

Josh: Uh, but Twitter's not— Twitter's not government. This is the problem is though, it's like, why, why should companies like Twitter— why should we be listening to them at an ethical level when it's a publicly listed company that's purpose is to make money.

Derek: Well, exactly. I mean, yeah, but so has the media. There's been all these rules around television, Channel 10. It's like saying, you know, Number 96 in the '70s, you know, that wasn't— it was a private company that produced Reg Grundy or whoever it was. They produced it, not our— it's not our problem what we put up, uh, on the channel. Grundy produced it. We're just a platform sort of thing, you know what I mean? Like, there was rules, uh, there always has been, because the bad guys, the Lex Luthors, right, they can get hold of things and put everyone in danger. I'm not— I'm definitely not saying that Twitter should start getting, uh, all that involved willy-nilly.

Josh: Yeah, it just feels like it shouldn't be a public— it feels like it shouldn't— it should be something that happens at So if you look at it, there was a lot of criticism around when there were the, um, uh, the terror stuff that was happening in, uh, New Zealand where the guy was filming and all of that sort of thing, and that was getting posted. It's like, if that was any broadcast company, um, they would be taken off air. They were like, they wouldn't exist, they would lose their licence and all that sort of thing. And so, um, Yeah, I guess, I guess the question— it feels like you can either be in or out. I don't know how you can sort of be in between. I don't know how you can sort of have free speech, do all this sort of stuff, but then— I mean, I'm all for not having shit on these platforms, or like, you know, not have— not being fucking having racists spewing their hate, um, My, my concern is how, how do you let— and this is the same thing with Google— is it's like, I would love for other companies to come in. And I think that all of these companies like Google should be, um, some of their powers should be removed based on these antitrust laws, because otherwise they're going to be— they're more powerful. They would have more information on us than, than the fucking government does.

Derek: Yeah, it's a brave new world, and that's the problem— getting around the new stuff. Like me trying to— all parents now trying to get around screen time. It's a bit like— it just reminds me of communism, this idea that we can see the new thing and we know how we reckon it should be. We're visionaries. We want Twitter to be just a funnel of shit that it's our problem to deal with. But the problem is, that's like communism, which is a great ideal, doesn't work. You know why? Because we're ourselves. Yeah, right.

Josh: So who do you decide? How do you decide then? So taking the Twitter example, how do you then decide, um, what's the, the rules of engagement when it comes to take this post down, keep this post up? What's considered If you're taking down content that's bullying, at what point do we think something is bullying versus just being a fair critique?

Derek: That's too hard to decide. That decision is going to be an evolution, and during the period of that evolution as to how to decide that, which will take a long time, there's going to be a lot of damage done. Like, number one, who's the President of the United States? Who discovered that you could use Twitter to win a presidential election and possibly keep it? It's horrifying. So there's a lot of damage being done. And that's collateral damage because there's a new thing on board. It's just another virus, isn't it, really? Yeah, we're running around trying to get a cure.

Tommy: Humans being left to the last decision. As you said, Josh, it's varying. There's people in different bubbles, what's right, what's wrong.

Josh: And so, algorithms can't do it either. The problem is that it's just like, I think that the broader issue is it's like, yes, like globalisation has happened over time, but culturally, like the world is a very, like countries are very different places. We all have different beliefs and we all have different sort of views on the world. And so if we have these global platforms, how can we— you know, what the US would find offensive is different to Australia or different to the Middle East. It's like, how can you possibly, um, how can, how can one company create some form of fucking structure to make sure that everyone's happy?

Tommy: Oh man, I don't think they can. I mean, I don't know, we're going to see the— I think these things like the Google writing this open letter, the people challenging these big corporations, it has to move it somewhere in the direction of working out what it all means because it's all so new.

Josh: Well, the hard thing— I think that what's tricky about all of these types, these types of sort of, um, legislation or whatever you want to call it, is it's like they Trojan horse all these other things into it. And so the thing that I worry about is it's like we all talk top line, like look how, how easy it is for us to have a conversation without knowing really many facts at all. But that's what, that's what the majority of the public are doing every single day. And so, um, at top line, Google could easily put a case where it's like it's going to affect your search results, blah blah blah, and it's like that's bad. But we don't, we don't fucking know the internet. Like, and then it's from the, the news side, it could be around the, um, you know, having access to the information and the, um, uh, making sure that news organisations are actually going to be able to survive, not just the big ones but the smaller ones as well.

Tommy: Oh yeah, but then the same note, you hear Google, Google are saying we pay them millions of dollars and send them billions of free clicks every year. It's like It's literally both just saying the opposite thing. They're not giving it— we're losing so much money, we're giving them so much money.

Derek: We are talking Google is YouTube as well. Yeah, that's the platform that a lot of independent news and, you know, even all the progressives— that's the platform that all the free thinkers are deciding to use. So Google starts, you know, messing with that.

Josh: Also, if you start But Scooter, I think if you start looking at that too, then you, you can ask about everything. Like, how are they judging verified accounts? So if, if all of a sudden we want to put these platforms on a pedestal, then you can't just have some sort of fucking random gronk accepting people on a verification. Like, there's a big thing at the moment where, um, you can become verified if— I've seen a couple of people do this— where you create heaps of fake accounts that are you. And so for Tommy, we would create 15 other Tommy Jackets posting pretending to be Tommy, and then Tommy can put in a claim on Instagram and say, hey, uh, I'm, I'm being sort of, um, fucking copied a bunch. Yeah, I need to be verified. And that's, that's fucking worked.

Tommy: I've got my day sorted. I've got my day sorted.

Josh: I'm gonna be, uh, 30 Tommy Jacket accounts. But anyway, um, Scooter, thanks for, thanks for chatting.

Tommy: Morning rant with Scooter Derrick.

Derek: No, I just woke up. Seriously, I haven't had a coffee yet.

Tommy: Flying, flying, big corporations, take it down.

Josh: Could you imagine a, um, could you, could you imagine like a radio show or something just like having their political correspondent just fucking, yeah, Scooter, just, just calling him up and asking what he thinks? Um, that's interesting. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you know anything about this, or if there's anything that we're missing, because there's— I mean, or anything that we're not missing. Are we right? Um, anyway, Scooter, thank you for coming on.

Tommy: Thanks, buddy. Have a good day.

Josh: Hump Day replay, you should have a listen to it. It's great. Uh, GB did a great job this week.

Derek: Yeah.

Josh: Uh, great. Bye, Scooter.

Derek: Bye-bye.

Tommy: See you, Scoots.

Josh: Um, That's interesting. I mean, do you think those conversations are annoying for people? Or like, I mean, this is what everyone's thinking, isn't it? Like, we don't want to talk about fucking politics.

Tommy: And you mentioned top line, you're hearing it will affect people. I mean, if you just choose to not consume any of this, you'll be— you'll experience the effect of it on the other side. I don't think we're changing or moving the needle, but it's interesting to get across some of these things that You know, there's businesses now making more money. We're at the point where there's businesses that are able to make them so much money from what they've created, and that's a new thing in the existence of humankind, like the Jeff Bezos of the world. And so it's bringing along all these issues, and for the fact that he can be— an individual can be worth $140 billion and then what that means down the chain for the companies built, people involved in the power that's there. There's so much, there's so many new problems that are arising that people are trying to sort out. And so no, I think it's— you can't be completely removed from this stuff, or you can be, and, and just ignorance is bliss, I guess, in some respects. If you take to get off Google Bing, you know, Bing's always asking me to fuck it, he's a duck, I can put it on a DuckDuckGo. Well, it's like, what, you know, uh, Yahoo, it's like, do you want to set Yahoo as your, you know, official, you know, home thing?

Josh: But I don't know, but then there's all that, then there's YouTube, then there's—

Tommy: it doesn't affect you until it affects you. And so until you're a business that's suffering because you can't make money because Google have syphoned all the cash away way.

Josh: It's like, but also demonetization stuff. It's like, what should we be allowing? So the thing is that what's interesting is, uh, we can look at the specific issues, but then there's also the broader perspective, which is what the actual mechanism is, or what this is allowing, or what this sort of— what the precedence is. And so, um, on a case-by-case basis, you could create a great case for this person should be demonetized, look at the bad shit they're doing. But then there's a spectrum, and the, the issue is the spectrum. It's like, okay, well, where does it stop? So if YouTube are going to stop these people making money, what does that mean for, um, you know, all of this other type of content that might be in a grey area or that might be talking about something that's important? Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Anyway, and as I've always said, I'm not putting my hand up to make these hard decisions, you know. I'm not, I'm not, we're not, I'm not putting my hand up.

Josh: We don't want to be president, so I haven't asked.

Tommy: We don't, yeah, we're not president of Google. We don't want that responsibility, to be honest.

Derek: Definitely not.

Josh: All right, uh, it's a daily talk show.

Tommy: Happy Wednesday.

Josh: Enjoy the rest of your day. Definitely go listen to Hump Day replay on your favourite podcast app if you haven't already. Give some, uh, love to Georgie Boy in the Apple Podcast reviews. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow, guys.

Derek: Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.