Chocolate Éclairs vs Profiteroles

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 808.

Tommy: What's happening, guys? What is going on? Happy weekend banter. Hello, Mr. 97. Yeah, hey, what's happening, mate?

Josh: What have you got? Yeah, yeah, you haven't— I mean, you haven't been on the show.

Mason: Well, look, there— no, look, there are— there— hang on, let me just— let me go I just bring my chin in a little bit. There are a few little things to clarify on my dog breed. Yeah, I'm actually quite happy with it.

Josh: Okay, good.

Mason: This is—

Josh: what were you—

Mason: it's—

Josh: yeah, we've moved on, mate. We're doing a show every day.

Mason: A Bernese Mountain Dog. That's actually Grace's favourite dog, so, um, cute. It's perfect. Okay, and I actually was very close. You, you mentioned a Hay subscription, Josh.

Josh: Spot on.

Tommy: What does that mean?

Josh: You're gonna have to reset for us because we don't remember the, um, the hate.

Mason: This is because, because I'm shocking with emails and I hate— that's right, yeah, the new email app that's meant to reinvent email, and I was following it for a long time and a subscription would be nice.

Tommy: Is there, um, is there law against other brands using the exact same tagline? Spark reinventing email or love your email again.

Josh: Surely. Unless, I mean, unless they're copywriting it— sorry, not copywriting it, unless they're trademarking it.

Tommy: Yeah, it's all— I mean, hey bro, I'll never fucking love my email. And you haven't reinvented anything, it's just still sending email. It's like it's Australia Post trying to say that there's Australia Post, you know. No, but I could imagine they're like, you know, feel re-energized by connecting via post.

Josh: Well, this is like when Jess says— come on— when she uses the phrase, uh, we've got to bring this to life. It feels like we're working at a morgue or something, like just everything's dead and we have to fix it.

Tommy: Give me some— give me a scenario.

Josh: Oh, it's just like, hey, um, guys, we've got to do this brainstorm session for this client. We just need to be able to bring these, um— I've sent through the doc, we want to bring these ideas to life. Okay, yeah, yeah, great, great. Um, you know, work out 5 different ways of bringing these um, yeah, the products to life. But I think it's because when I was at Envato, uh, I did a whole, um, I was working on a campaign and, um, it was all about bringing your ideas to life. And I got so— I ended up Googling it because I'm like, oh, this is a great idea, maybe, maybe I could get the domain name, it could be— and it's fucking used. So like, if you type it in on Twitter on search, everyone's saying it. And so bring it to life. Yeah.

Mason: And so I remember Pixar thing to say.

Josh: Yeah, it has that vibe. But so then I changed it to, um, helping ideas grow. And then I had like, because Envato was a leaf, and I, I, um, I did like a tree of leaves. I remember showing it to my manager, and, um, my manager, um, who we were on sort of rocky, rocky grounds because she was sort of this middle manager that came in, and I sort of all of a sudden went from reporting into the founder to having to deal with someone else, which is fine, whatever. But I just remember she said—

Tommy: if it's fine, whatever, it's not fine. Fine, whatever.

Josh: Actually, whatever, whatever.

Tommy: Warning sign of—

Josh: no, but she was very nice. She said— she— I think she was trying to win me over because she said, Josh— like, I'd spent 30 seconds putting this together before the meeting— so, Josh, this is something that we would pay an agency $50,000 to do. 30 seconds. It's a picture that I drew of a tree and it just says, "Helping your ideas grow." And it's got leaves and like dots and lines.

Tommy: I love this 'cause you think about the biggest brands in the world and you think, how much did they spend on their logo? How much did Nike spend on the logo?

Josh: Was it the first one? Was it $35?

Tommy: Yeah. The backstory, have you read that before?

Josh: I think—

Tommy: oh yeah, so here we go, here we go, here we go, here we go. Um, let me just— the Nike swoosh— so I'm pretty sure they're talking about the tick— is perhaps one of the most well-known cheap logos, costing the sports brand just $35 USD when co-founder Phil Knight commissioned graphic design student Carolyn Davidson back in 1971.

Josh: He was pissed off because it was on— it was on Fiverr, but she got him with a few extra bonuses. He wanted the, um, the, the illustrator for profile as well, which was an extra $20.

Tommy: I mean, what does that say about creativity? What does it say to you, JJ, the, the 30 minutes before a presentation that swayed a manager to think you're the— you're actually a reincarnation of God himself?

Josh: You should have seen the person who worked with me in the team who already thought that I was a bit arrogant and obnoxious. Like, just her eyes roll when the manager said that, presenting my traits. I mean, creativity is about like connecting, connecting dots. It's about, um, but it's also not about being complicated. It's about like being able to communicate the complicated in a simple way. Um, so yeah, I love it. But I think that part of it too is timing. Yeah, exactly. And exactly.

Tommy: Um, because you can— because what about like I mean, for us, when we first started, the logo that we had for the daily talk show was text because we needed to do something to get it on the podcast platforms, and we needed at least a photo with something, some text on it. And then we got another logo which we liked, but it wasn't what we knew it was going to become in the future. And then we got a design student named 3D Deal who ended up creating something that we all love. Yeah, and so if you didn't do the first two, it's like there would be so much riding on that first one. I mean, you look at every— all the brands that are doing rebrands, like Southern Cross of Stereo Radio Company, um, for the 17th time. Who else is there? My brother's got a podcast, he's rebranded it twice before releasing an episode. I said you're the— you're the SCA. I said you're the S— you're the SCA of podcasting.

Josh: I mean, it's— I mean, it is interesting though, like the, um Yeah, the, the rebrand of a radio station, like, the— it, it does something for morale. Because if you look, if you look on LinkedIn, people are like, this is like a gigantic effort with like so many hours spent on this thing.

Tommy: And is that, is that the internal people at SEA writing that?

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: And so because I can tell you what's happened there, I can tell you what's happened. Someone like Josh Janson has texted someone and said, can you comment on my LinkedIn post? And then they have to write something.

Josh: Everyone's just happy for it. Now on LinkedIn, I think the vibe's good. Everyone's just happy they have a job at the moment. So it's just like, fucking fired up, guys, to be here. Fired up. Just fucking love being here. It's fucking great, isn't it? Fucking, we all did a lot of work. So did I. Fucking definitely not a role.

Tommy: Who loves the 14th of every month?

Josh: Me. That's when we get paid. But I did see they said that they were very proud because it was an internal job, like someone did it internally, and it did remind me of my, um, my tree diagrams. It's like just fucking— just the Dave Cameron just fucking clapping it in as they present the $50,000 idea.

Tommy: I think the one, one thing when people give criticism— and hey, I do it, I like— because I think that's what anything get put out into the world, you're going to have a thought on when you see it. It makes you feel something. That's the whole point of brand, is that You're trying to influence how people are feeling, and you're trying to communicate what you as a brand are doing, and then it has to align with the instant trigger of the feeling that comes up when someone sees it. So you're trying to mesh these two together perfectly. But then you do think about, okay, I hadn't thought about who'd made that. I probably— I think I thought that it was probably an agency that spent $100 grand on creating a logo that looks like every other looks like 4 other corporate businesses. But then you've got to think about the person who's made it, and there's probably an individual that has done it. And like you said, someone internally, and they feel strongly to it, and they've put everything to it.

Josh: And so do you feel bad about— like, do you think that you're throwing too much shade at the rebrand then?

Tommy: Oh, I'm throwing shade at the company rebranding for the 17th time. I, I think I was there with 2 rebrands and everyone was confused back then. And so I'm just worried about the confusion now when it's rockier times.

Josh: But it feels good, doesn't it? It feels like, um, it's not too dissimilar to me getting my, um, my exercise bike, or like, for the first— what, like, there is a stage where it's like, this is actually— you know what, it's been a very hard time, but this new colour palette, this, this is what we needed.

Tommy: This is everything.

Josh: Yeah, this is it. Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, Sam's doing the new, um, new tweets with some colour behind them, mate. We've done it, we've reinvented the wheel. Yeah, yeah, we have. This is untouched. But then, you know, even the, uh, the slightly distance for us, which is the Feeling, uh, Tully Smyth launched her podcast Too Much Tully. That is, um, you know, a creative endeavour that is kind of sidestepped from us, but we're highly invested in it because it's a part of our podcast network. How have you felt, JJ, on any feedback that's come through on that?

Josh: I realise how much time I've been on my phone. So, my refr— like when I'm feeling, it's not even stressed or just when I'm feeling that wired feeling, it takes me about a week to realise or a couple of weeks to realize. So, at first I'm like, I'm needing something. Maybe I need to read a book. Why do I need to read a book? Like, I just become obsessed around books. And last night I looked at my screen time, uh, it was up, uh, 44% from last week. Wow. Wow. Uh, and, uh, the— I can tell you, I'll tell you the, um, the exact details. It was over— I spent on my phone in the week Guess how much for the— this week, how many hours I've spent on my phone?

Mason: Oh, for the entire week combined?

Tommy: Entire average? That's the entire week?

Josh: So, so not— yeah, no, so not, not the daily average, the entire week. If I was to add up all of the time every day, every day.

Tommy: Oh God, Jesus, I'm going, I'm going 70 hours.

Josh: No, it was 61 hours. It was 61 hours.

Tommy: Oh mate, Seb's— I'm 9 off.

Josh: 10 hours.

Tommy: 10 hours.

Josh: 11 minutes, 10 hours and 11 minutes, uh, on the phone. I don't know what happened on, um, Sunday last week, but it nearly hit 20 hours on my phone on Sunday. Just a nice little switch. I don't know what happened.

Tommy: Do you sleep?

Josh: Probably not. That's what's happening.

Tommy: Well, I mean, what—

Mason: one of the, one of the things that I feel like you might have updated in that time has been your Instagram bio. This is— I was, I was—

Tommy: as he said, I was—

Mason: well, so I mean, here is the first time I saw— I probably saw it on Wednesday. You've done a little update. Podcast and live YouTube show at the Daily Talk Show. In love with Brianna Phillips. It feels like midnight clock.

Josh: Yeah, the feel like— feels like midnight gear has been—

Mason: how long?

Josh: About 3 weeks.

Mason: How long has it been on? At least 3 weeks.

Josh: It was when Tommy— so there was a period in the office where I was just a bit fucking exhausted. And at like 3 PM, I'd be like, fuck, feels like midnight. And then Tommy had a conversation with me where he's like, you're fucking— you saying that makes it feel like midnight. Like, fucking— like, that's not helping. And so then on the Monday, the following Monday, I changed it all and started saying, fuck, it's a great— like, I'm fucking fired up. And then like I say that, I'm like, I'm fucking happy and this is gonna be a good day. TJ's like, you're right, you're a bit manic today, you're a bit happy. It's like, fuck, I can't win. But no, so the reason I brought that up—

Tommy: And surely this week you crashed.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But so on the, no, so you're right. Yeah, the telly thing, I'd been, I like to keep across all the different pieces. And so there's like when you launch a podcast, there's a bunch of things that you're looking at, you're looking at, downloads a little bit. You're looking at, you know, click-through links. We're sort of tracking different stuff, seeing where traffic's coming from, what people are saying. But yeah, what you're talking about specifically is the Apple Podcasts reviews, which yesterday, before we received a, um, a message from Tully being like, oh, this— I can't be fucked with this. Um, I went through my phone and changed the order of all my apps because I'd gotten so used to clicking on it, refresh, click. Like, I've— I just keep— like, it's a bit of a routine. So I had completely— yeah, it's a tick.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. And so anyway, many people out there that have a— that have a— when they go on to, say, they're on their computer, they go Command+T, F, A, and then click Enter, which is Facebook. I've done a lot of that in my time, like Command+T, F, A, bang, into Facebook, you're there.

Josh: Yeah. And so the, um, yeah, the reviews, the Apple Podcast reviews have been notoriously toxic, similar to— remember YouTube used to be really bad back in the day?

Tommy: Like, it still has a bit of that, but I think the, the consistency is that you there's a high chance, um, you don't know who the person is. So it's like quite unanimous— unanimous in terms of leaving something anonymous. Sorry, um, anonymous. So you can just leave a slight slander review— scathing reviews, the word— uh, and get away with it and, and just make, make someone feel like shit.

Josh: Well, the funny thing about— so the thing is that like we would get if we were as popular as Tully is, we'd be getting the same sort of reviews. It's just a scale thing, right? Like, her download numbers— not to sound like Donald Trump— they're in the billions. It's ridiculous. Billions and billions and billions. The polls have never been higher for Tully Smythe. Yeah, but the, um, yeah, yeah, I mean, the thing is, like, it's, um, the thing that I've worked out, like, I think this is a bit of a turning point for me, especially as a creator, having seen the effort that we've put in, the effort that Tully's put in, the generosity that we've all come to it in regards to what we're trying to do and we're trying to serve the listener and all this sort of thing. And so you see these reviews and I couldn't help but do a bit of a copy and paste of the usernames. And what's funny about the people who leave these reviews is, uh, they had the exact same opinion, uh, on Tully's last podcast. And so the thing is, these people aren't fans. They're not listening, uh, they're— they are just following her around and shitcanning wherever.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And then the other thing is there's this— there's, uh, I won't even say the name of the podcast, but there's a— there's a new strategy that people are using to try and grow their podcast where they'll go into the reviews of popular podcasts and they'll say, fraud, this is a complete copy of this podcast, which isn't like— so sorry to burst your bubble, but like when I Googled it, when I actually searched the podcast, there were so many, uh, podcasts with the same name of this podcast I couldn't actually work out which one they were talking about. But the strategy, the strategy of saying, hey, this is a complete copy as a way to try and get numbers and get clout. And so, yeah, so there's all that sort of shit. And then you read, and then you read the stuff where it's like, we called the show, we had, we've had so many discussions around how do we do, how do we make this so that is so obvious of what it is, right? And so the criticism that Tully was getting with Social Squad, which was a podcast with Mamma Mia, was Tully loves to chat and she's fucking great at it. And that's the reason why we love her as a guest and we always have enjoyed having her on the show. And it's the reason why we're like, you know what, the reason why you're getting this feedback is because it was an interview show. And of course it's not what you want to do. And so We titled the podcast Too Much Tully. We put her name on the podcast. We put her face in the podcast artwork, and then it's as if someone has mysteriously had this fucking podcast into their ears. They're like, oh my, they're so fucking offended that Tully's talking in it. Like, it is ridiculous. And then the other thing that gets me is it's like, what is the most Like, look at like all these trolls with their like 1-star reviews. They don't mean anything, but I just thought I had a moment of how funny it is, how offended they are at like a female talking. And if you look at like the number 1 category on Apple Podcasts, it's crime. We're all cool about women being fucking butchered to death and us listening to it through headphones. But the idea of 5 stars. Yeah, but the idea of Tully Smythe accidentally talking over someone for a few seconds is apparently fucking more offensive.

Tommy: Oh, it's so fucking rich. Like, there was an article that I was sent today from Jess that says Tully Smyth— it was— this is in the Daily Mail— Tully Smyth's new podcast receives 1-star reviews from enraged listeners who accuse the former Big Brother star of talking over guests and being self-obsessed. Like, there is 5-star reviews in there too. They're not focused on— it's, it's complete trash. And like you said, missed the point.

Josh: Uh, but it's not only just missing the point, these are like— there was no point for them to try and get— there was no— there's no— this isn't critical feedback where they're going through. This is, uh, them being triggered, uh, or just literally following— like, if you actually like use— like, if you, if you Google these people, you realise that they go from podcast to podcast. They go to Shameless, they go to every single podcast, like any podcast where there's strong women talking. And they need— and what they're trying to do is that they want to make it very clear that you shouldn't be doing what you're doing, and they're going to try everything they can to try and stop it. And so for me, what I learned from it is it's like, okay, I completely understand how Tully feels about it because it's like I have that, like, I— it's, it's not even me directly being trolled, but even just being in the sort of, uh, a part of it and seeing and thinking about how that must make her feel, I feel that response. And I think that the turning point is it's like, okay, these reviews, these people, um, like, there are Mentally unwell isn't the right way of phrasing it. These people need, like, they've got other shit going on, right? Clearly. Like, there are, if you look, if you walk down the street or if you just see, like, even if you just go on LinkedIn or Facebook and you see people who that you normally think is pretty fucking together, and then you fucking comment, you see one comment about what they're thinking about ex-politician or whatever it is, and then you're like, oh, they're actually completely fucking tweaked. And so if we, if we know people in our inner circle who are fucked up, imagine outside of our circle how many fucked up people there are. So my perspective is it's like, you know, the great thing, the beauty of what we're doing is that this is a long-term game and we have the support of our team and we can be resilient and we can. And this isn't to discredit or to, to say that there's not growth to be made. This is saying that that format, that way of saying it, the— those people aren't actually the people who matter. And so, yeah, I think I've become very comfortable with expecting it, completely expecting this from anything you do. But then also just like, it's, um, the best way to manage it, I think, is you can't— I completely relate to— and Michelle and Zara have spoken about this with Shameless. It's like you actually can't look at it. And people will try and say that that means that you're not listening to your listeners, but the listeners can email I mean, the brave ones aren't in, in the trenches leaving reviews that are scathing.

Tommy: It's like not where they lay. I, I mean, think about time that you've been triggered seeing something, and if you just stop for a moment, it is a pure reflection on yourself at some point. Like when I've seen people doing well and I've thought, how are they any— they're no good and they're doing well, and then I start getting dark. But it's like that is because I'm probably thinking, fuck, I'm meant to be doing more than I am. I've got more in me than what I'm currently putting out to the world.

Josh: But it's not even— most people don't even have that awareness. Like, they'll never know that, right? They'll, they'll have the internal misogyny and they'll be feeling this way and they'll think that, no, this is because— and they'll buy into the, the reality show. Like, they're dumb enough to believe the reality show narrative. And I think that Tully is funny because she will deliver that stuff. Like, she'll give that, like, she doesn't give a fuck. She'll be giving them the stuff that then feeds them even more, which I sort of appreciate about how she operates.

Tommy: Oh yeah. I mean, it is funny though, like you said, Josh, when you've been putting in work for something and it's not even your voice that's at the centre of it being criticized. It's, um, it's when you know someone like Tully, like, we, we're getting to know her beyond what people probably do on Instagram. And, and she, she's impressed me so many times with the person that she is. And I'm— and, and that's where I then start getting offended because I'm like, no, you guys fuck it. But then it's like, I don't even need to try and, uh, you know, scratch this, trying to— yeah, even enter into that because it's like Yeah, you just know someone's a great person and they're working on it and they, and they've got flaws of their own, insecurities, you know, and issues of their own like we all do. And Tully's the brave one putting something out into the world. It's not, you know, it's like we're not— I was gonna say we're not like surgeons changing lives, heart— one heart surgery at a time, but we're also trying to do trying to do what we do and, and give, give something to the world. And so that's what Tully's doing, and I fucking love it. And so, but you see why people don't start. You see why people that already have created something of their own have such an aversion to putting something out into the world, because you know that you're just going to get feedback from trolls. And so it's— what's easier is to just do nothing. And doing nothing doesn't necessarily help you and where you want to go to and your dreams.

Josh: And so there's also a lack of critical thinking from, say, this person that wrote a Daily Mail— I mean, lack of thinking across the Daily Mail probably is a brand value. But they— I mean, the thought is that it's like if they actually thought about the nuance They wouldn't be able to do their jobs. But if they actually thought about the nuance, they would be like, okay, hang on. So, this is a podcast that you have to seek out, you have to click on, you have to do all of these steps to get there. And we've made it very clear in the— Like, this isn't— It's not like we're Trojan horsing this. We're not pretending that Too Much Tully is, you know, the interview with Andrew Denton. Like, it's, it's very clear of what this fucking show is. And so I think that probably the, the missing piece is, uh, they put those reviews like those reviews actually mean something, whereas the reality is that it's actually— I'll, I'll take a sidestep too, if you think about television or radio. So Television and radio, there was more criticism to be had because you would have your Channel 10 or your Fox FM or whatever it is. You'd have the station that you listen to, and then people would enter your homes or your ears or whatever it is, and Channel 10 or Fox are picking the things that you consume. And so there's a level of friction or responsibility as the programmer around, okay, what does our audience like? This is completely different to that. This is, hey, Tully's got her own channel, her own station. Enter if you like Tully, enter if you're interested in that. And so I think that that's what gets lost, is that it's completely fucking optional. And the reviews potentially, I think that, yeah, I wonder how many people are saying, this isn't for me and that's it versus the visceral response that they're getting and saying, this isn't for me. Not only is this not for me, but I need to tell everyone that it's not for me. Yeah.

Tommy: I'm gonna tell all my friends and all the people I don't know. Because as a creator, if people are saying this is not for me, that is okay. It doesn't matter.

Josh: It can't be for everyone.

Tommy: You're trying to find a select group of people who it's for. And if you can do that, even find a small handful of people that it's for, there is a high chance there are other people like those people that will like what you're doing. There will always be more people who don't like what you're doing than not, but that is okay. But I think where we— I think the energy that comes out of— and you see it, that, that podcast, that, that Daily Mail article, they lead with all the 1 stars, but then at the bottom they say, oh, but she's getting some, some stuff that's coming through that's positive. But it's like, that's not interesting. That's not, that's not going to draw people's attention, the 5-star stuff that she gets and the people saying, girl, this is your thing, you've meant to do this, your own show, this is everything. Like All of that is exactly what— why we started the show, because it's saying everything we thought before Tully even did her first show. And she has a whole development.

Josh: And that's the development that's getting done. I mean, if you go to— if you don't like pop music, don't go to a Taylor Swift concert. And so, for some reason, for some reason, we've gotten very good with that with a lot of different things. But there's a lot of dumb people. Like, I went to write a review. I went to a lot of derps. I went to write a review and then my phone died. But I was sort of glad because I was like, it was a review in response to everyone on Tully's podcast.

Tommy: And I was just— Don't do that.

Josh: I didn't.

Tommy: I didn't.

Josh: I don't want to fucking— I don't want to have what fucking Jen dealt with. I don't want it to be fucking— Yeah. Fucking Josh Janes. It was, it was on Tully's account. It's not like I'm fucking writing on— anyway, the, um, uh, I basically just don't do it. Yeah, the final thing I said was, um, uh, I would suggest that the, the people leaving these reviews pick up a self-help book. Um, but I just sort of fucking can't be fucked. And I was so good because I showed Bree and she's like, I reckon you could get rid of that last line. I think that probably just— and then I went to delete it and then my phone died. I was like, you know what, that's a sign.

Tommy: That's a sign.

Josh: You've got the latest iPhone that's meant to fucking last 24 hours in a day and it's dying before you go to bed. You fucking— you've had a good day's work.

Tommy: Was that on the 20th hour of that day that you—

Josh: No, fuck it. I'm surprised that the I did realise with the battery that it's like, it's so easy to forget to close down all of your apps. Like, I went through and realised I had fucking every app open that I've basically ever used. So a little, uh, tip for everyone: go in and do your little, um, uh, what you swipe up and then, um, yeah, yeah, your little swipe up and then go.

Mason: Yeah, even Safari tabs is a little, um Little tip, if your Safari is running slow, just close some tabs.

Josh: I use Chrome.

Tommy: Oh really?

Mason: Oh yeah, my brother Sam's got about 100 tabs open.

Josh: Too many.

Mason: Just ridiculous.

Tommy: Yeah, tab, tab boy.

Josh: Uh, what else is going on, Seb? Anything, anything?

Mason: Yeah, um, well, uh, we've, we've been inside all week just with our tests. So now, now that we're negative, um, we can, we can both go out. So this weekend Um, like you guys are talking about, we want to have a bit of fun.

Josh: Um, you're getting nuggets? You've been talking a lot about nuggets.

Mason: Well, yeah, I think we will get nuggets. We've, we've got, we've got Attica at home tonight, uh, for a little date night, but we have been pushing for chicken nuggets during the week. And I'm not saying if I have them I won't be happy afterwards, but she really wants it. Yeah, it's like, let's get them. I want to have them with you. I really want to have them with you. But then it's that thing of I potentially won't be happy afterwards, which is just destroying the whole thing.

Tommy: Where are the nuggets from? What's the go-to for you?

Mason: Oh, just Maccas.

Josh: Just Maccas. TJ, what would you pay for 20 nuggets at Maccas?

Tommy: I tell you what, you pay less than 12 nuggets or something. There's some silly deal on. What do you mean? It's like $9. $9 or something.

Mason: No, no, no. $8. No, it's about $18 for 20 nuggets. And then, because we would— we were in isolation when we were gonna do my swallowing at that point.

Josh: Yeah, have you ever thought about that? You never thought like, imagine if every time you ate, you imagined eating McDonald's?

Tommy: Is currently— oh, this was— so this is when— this is— sorry, my, my bad, guys. McDonald's were currently offering— were, were offering were offering 24 chicken nuggets for $9.95, and Amy got 24 with Bodhi and came back and ate them in bed watching a movie. Now that's fun.

Josh: What sort of sauce?

Tommy: But that's why I thought they were so cheap. Nice. You gotta go sweet and sour. Hey, but, um, so, uh, last night driving past, uh, KFC, a huge line with cars down the street, and Amy's like, mate, The Colonel's back. You know how I was saying the Colonel's back? My brother was telling me the Colonel's back. Mate, they've run out of chicken. There's a chicken shortage in Victoria at KFC. Chicken shortage, KFC. I mean, it could be Tully Smyth's recommendation of Zinger burgers because she's never had one until her mate told her to have one this year, and she's been going hard. And so she's had a whole bunch of people, you know, sending, uh, snaps through saying, I'm eating, I'm eating a KFC while listening. So, it could be her doing, but there is a chicken shortage, experiencing chicken shortage in Victoria with some restaurants closing. I mean, it is their business, isn't it? If you don't have chicken, you don't have KFC.

Josh: I mean, I remember going to a Red Rooster, like I feel like Red Rooster, unless you're sort of a hardcore fan, is maybe a once a year sort of thing. And I just remember it was like, we decided to do the once a year 'Oh, you know what, let's get Red Rooster,' and they're out of chicken. I was just like, 'Oh no, this is why, this is why they're so fucking, you know, shit.' Well, people, I'm very wary of shitcanning Red Rooster because, um, yeah, for some, like, there's, there's some people who love the, like, 'Oh man, yeah, I love their soggy, soggy chicken roll that's in the microwave.' It's like I don't think it is.

Tommy: Hey, so there is, they do cheesy chicken nuggets at Red Rooster. So, they've got cheese in the middle of them. They're not bad. Not bad.

Josh: Cheaper, I wonder, for them to make? If there's chicken shortages around, fill it out with cheese. I wonder if you just fill them with cheese.

Tommy: Nah, not that much cheese. It's 95, 98% chicken.

Mason: Macca's never seems to get hit with a chicken shortage.

Josh: Monopoly.

Tommy: It's not their go-to. I mean, the Colonel is the chicken guy. Macca's are a beef— they're beef specialists.

Josh: You know, that's true. Um, so yeah, my tip, my tip is, um, on your phone to switch up all of your apps so that you have to have an extra layer of thought before you tap on something because you've probably gotten into a routine. I've even like this morning I didn't look at my, um, phone in bed, but Bree was on Instagram and I was just like watching her, just watching her Instagram and seeing what— like, oh, who's— what's that? Who's that?

Tommy: Right, it's like, it's like you've quit porn and you've asked your mate to just show you it on his phone.

Josh: Oh, oh, not quite, but the, um, the It's addictive. I get it. Oh God.

Tommy: Anyway, that's a good one. So what are you taking away? What do you take away from the guy that's just said he spent one day, had 20 hours of screen time?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What's the takeaway?

Josh: So I mean, yeah, the takeaway—

Mason: How does that even work, by the way? Sorry. One day, 20 hours.

Josh: I don't know. Like, I can show it to you, but yeah, no, it's on the screen grab that I sent you, Mace. Um, on the very— the first— on the, the iMessage I sent you last night, there's, um, if you zoom in, it's like close to the 20-hour mark. Um, it must have been 18 hours, but, um, yeah. So no, where I've landed with it, I don't— so Cal Newport, he wrote the book, um, two books, Deep Work and Digital Minimalism. I can't remember if it was in Digital Minimalism or Deep Work but he talks about, uh, I can't remember the, the name of the, the work or what, how he sort of names it, but it's the work that you do. So it's the, the constant checking, it's the, um, refreshing of things, it's checking news.com.au, it's checking, uh, the Major League Baseball scores, it's all of those little cheques that you do Yeah, yeah. You know, checking your anal— like, the thing is that I don't need to cheque our podcast analytics every half hour.

Tommy: Yeah, because I mean, you could safely do it once every 2 weeks based on it just has grown. It keeps growing. Safe to say that it's going to keep growing. Yeah.

Josh: And so, the thing is, yeah, I find, I think potentially when I'm seeking comfort. My version of comfort is, uh, doughnuts and, um, like, so just fucking junk, just like, fuck yeah, we'll have that.

Tommy: Yeah, junk food.

Josh: Why not junk food? And then the other one is, um, the little things of like— so I feel like I— the way that I feel like it's happening, which is not the reality, is I'm fucking in the NASA control center. I'm just fucking— I've got all the charts, I'm fucking looking and I'm refreshing, and then I get like fucking, um, rewarded from you guys because we'll like, I'll find little things. So it's like I found something on LinkedIn last night and I sent it to you, TJ, and you're like, how did you find that so quickly? I was on it, fuck, I haven't left LinkedIn in fucking 6 weeks and I'm fucking fired up.

Tommy: Hang on, it was, the video was unlisted and had 2 views. That's what drew my concerns to how the fuck you came across it.

Josh: Yeah, so I found someone else's video and I like sent it through or whatever, but there's That's so good. And then even so, Mason and I get into talking about fucking— so Spotify, remember we've had the issue of our Spotify show notes looking like dog shit.

Mason: Shit house. Yes.

Josh: Go on your phone, go on your phone and go onto Spotify right now.

Mason: It's an exciting day.

Josh: Yeah, go to The Daily Talk Show on Spotify. If you are a Spotify listener and you listen to music on Spotify and you listen to other podcasts or whatever, listen to the Daily Talk Show on Spotify too. Um, we are slightly—

Tommy: Great.

Josh: Uh, slightly concerned that there will be, there will be a little bit of a monopoly or something that happens where they, um, you know, because they are doing so well. But it's a good, um, it's a good solution. Video is coming as well so that people will be able to watch.

Tommy: That would be great.

Josh: Have you looked at the show?

Tommy: Yeah. Dude, they're sick. The dot points, dialled in links, they're all properly spaced out properly because it was just like slapping the text in there even if we formatted it before.

Josh: Well, they didn't have— they didn't have HTML support, and so we were— so 97 was going through and doing all of that. Um, it still needs— they need to update their Chrome, like their, um, web, uh, experience because it's still, um, not formatted on there, but it will happen. But it would break all of the links. So we had a piece of work where we were going to go through every single show note, every 800 episodes, and go through the show notes and reformat for Spotify. And so by Spotify doing this, it means we don't have to do that anymore.

Tommy: Josh, what about setting daily limits on your apps? Calvin wrote through to us and said that's something he does and it works for him.

Josh: So yeah, I was— I definitely— yeah, I will do that. So the thing that I have done already is I went in and turned off all notifications, um, for most.

Tommy: I mean, I've done that, I've done that for a long time, like especially email and shit, and I seem to not— like if— okay, so you go, I have to manually check, so maybe I do the manual cheque more than some, but then the others who have notifications are getting disrupted every time there's any you know, so you've— maybe there's a higher level of checking based on just being told, yo, you got a fucking email.

Josh: Oh, definitely. Well, I get like, um, yeah, you just— even the, uh, I mean, how many people in Victoria get a push notification every time Dan Andrews has a statement? It's just fucking like, um, you're tuning in type of thing.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, And so, I've turned off a bunch of that stuff, but I was also thinking that it's a— It is a trap because it gives you the sense of progress, but no progress is actually getting made in the process. So, like, probably I would say I'm wasting at the moment 7 hours a day on my phone, no doubt, doing stuff that feels like there's some level of progress, but it's actually just input, input, input. And so, you'll find bits of gold, right? So, like, if you think about how much I'm like sifting through things and going on websites and searching stuff and like the— You are bound to find pieces of gold. But I think that for me—

Tommy: You are, yeah.

Josh: Yeah. And that— But what I think that I'm sort of leaning towards is it's like the curated, like being way more curated with things and being like, okay, I'm gonna read this book from start to finish. And because think about when I read a book, how many pieces of gold. So if we look at like It Doesn't Have to Be Crazy at Work, the book that I was reading, within 32 pages I had already highlighted 12 quotes that were great. And so like I reckon that books have a way higher rate of actual, like, signal-to-noise, whereas I feel like online stuff— and this is fucking obvious shit, this is stuff that we know—

Tommy: I mean, what you're saying, JJ, is a piece of broccoli has better qualities about it than a donut, because that's, that's the comparison right there. And then, but then it's like, the challenge is how do you convince yourself that eating the broccoli every day is much better. Spend more time eating broccoli than—

Josh: Well, I think first of all, you need to move the doughnuts from where you normally have them. That's the— if we're using the same sort of metaphor.

Tommy: You're in a bakery. You're a guy who is in a bakery that specialises in doughnuts and doughnuts and donuts.

Josh: And I'm a baker.

Tommy: But you're— and you're a baker, and there is a few healthy options in your bakery.

Josh: And I'm a bakery treat expert.

Tommy: Yeah, and so obviously you're in a conundrum, son.

Josh: It's very hard. How does the baker fucking get away from the baked goods? It feels like it's my job.

Tommy: Yeah, no, see, here's the thing. I've been watching this show, Seb, can you look it up at Netflix? It's a renovating show. They take old properties, like Restoration Australia it might be called, Sabilla, Sabel. Is a woman who hosts it. So nice. You had last night, I mean, I watched someone down in, um, in Tasmania. They find these old— yeah, Restoration Australia. They find these old cottages that are, you know, centuries old, and they want to restore them but keep a lot of the qualities of, you know, the, the old style, right? Um, there, a lot of them are off the grid, a lot of them are far out. And I was thinking about like moving to a place that's remote. And then I was thinking about how to get out of this is like, it's almost cutting. Think about if we stop the show tomorrow and we stop the business and you just had a nice cushy job in a country town, what that would force you to do. Like, I think for to cut, you know, that's the drastic approach to what would be the—

Josh: can we work out what the job is?

Tommy: Cushy job, post office for sure. For sure, post office. Post office.

Josh: I think that's— yeah, like, I straight away go into the my back fucking hurting.

Tommy: Like, um, no, you can sit down.

Josh: What about it? What about a book? No, no, no, no. What I love— no, the problem is down though, the, the business that I would want to work with or work for isn't a good business because there's not many customers. Like, I, I'm not a customer guy, and so the thing is It's potentially like I was wondering, so Bri had a workmate that they had to do some work in person. And so, they came to our lounge room and did the work there last week. And I didn't leave my, the spare room, like the office, like my office. And Bri would like come in with like water and she's like, you know, you can come out. Like, it's one like, nah. No, I'm good, I'm good. I'm just enjoying my company. And so, like, I got a bit of an insight of what it would be like to be in jail because I literally couldn't— like, I was laying on my floor. Like, normally, like, when I'm having calls or whatever, I'll go to the bed and I'll, like, lie down and I'll be, like, FaceTiming. It gives me some stretching time and stuff like that. So, my point is it would be good—

Tommy: So, I'm just going to point out that lying on your bed is not stretching, dude.

Josh: It feels like a fucking stretch.

Tommy: If it feels like a stretch, something's gone wrong.

Josh: Yeah, I feel really— in fact, Bree, um, uh, hurt her back.

Tommy: Oh, how is she?

Josh: Poor thing. Ah, fuck, it's cost $400 so far, physio, already in a week. Isn't that a lot? We don't have private health, but, um, yeah, but then, I mean, you'd be—

Tommy: you'd—

Josh: we used to have private health.

Tommy: $1,400.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: Instantly at the start of the year.

Josh: Yeah, I guess. And so, um, now she's, she's feeling better, but it is that thing of the physio versus— I'm an osteo guy. I did all of that. I did— when I first got my herniated discs, I did the, the physio, the osteo, the chiro. Chiro's— I know some people love chiro's. I had a horrendous experience with a chiro. They tricked me with, um, all of this chat about like nutrition, and they were showing me like an apple at the start, and they were like, fucking and x-raying things, and like, it was all very good. And then they're just like, okay, yeah, I was in like a heap of pain. And they get me on one of their, um, bed things, and they bring up the wedge, like, you know, like, and then slam it down. And I'm like, I was at the time, my biggest concern— this is like 2012, my biggest— 2013, my biggest concern was, um, when I was walking into work or whatever, I was worried that someone would knock, like a cyclist or whatever, would just knock me a little bit and I would be fucked. Like, I was like in that position where it's like so vulnerable. And so then to have someone fucking slamming my hips and they're like, I'm like, that's like, I wasn't being a bitch about it. I was like, that's, that really hurts. They're like, oh no, that's like, that's part of it. I'm like, I don't think, yeah, I don't think it is.

Tommy: I had a bad experience. I don't think it's all, I don't think it's all chiros there. I know a few good ones. But like, it definitely the old school approach. Like I went to a chiro many years ago.

Josh: I've seen them at weddings a lot, don't you think? A lot of, when I go to weddings, always meet chiros.

Tommy: You know, they're doctors. A doctor of chiropractic.

Josh: Are they a GP? Wait, do they have to be a GP before they become a chiro?

Tommy: They're not a general practitioner, but they're a doctor. It's like a, it's like Harps will be, Craig Harper will be a doctor at the time he Finish easy.

Josh: Yeah, what were you saying? Sorry, I interrupted.

Tommy: Yeah, I was just saying that I went to one many, many, many, many years ago and had the real brutal cracking, just like— but then I went again and it's like a lot softer and a different approach. And so they're not all like that, but yeah, I get you, I get what you mean. There's a lot of people that disagree.

Josh: Well, so where I put it is like the physio for me, um, I don't know if these are like common clichés, but the physio is they'll always give you homework and it's all very much, and it's like little Lexus, like you end up buying one of their like rubber band things and it's like you got to do a bit of work and they sort of, there's that, and they sort of just sort of touch your shoulder and say, yep, yeah, okay, yeah, go and do that, put it on the doorknob and then extend your arm and do that. But the, what I like about the Osteo is that they actually, um, you get like a massage out of it too and they do a little bit of aligning.

Tommy: I actually think so. Tully Smyth's podcast, Too Much Tully, next week's episode, episode 3, I've been working on. It's coming out on Tuesday, and they have a kinesiologist on the show.

Josh: Now, what is a kinesiologist?

Tommy: Uh, good question. Let me just say why I think you should go to it before I think— before I tell you what they are, because I will struggle there. Look up kinesiologist, what they do, Seb's, but they can help with a lot of emotional stuff. And so understanding what your body's doing based on some of the emotional triggers in your life. And so you're a highly emotional dude. And I think you haven't wanted to go to a, yes, a psychologist and tackle it head on like that, which is your battle. Uh, but I think there's a version that is— it's not necessarily a psychologist where you're just sitting there doing— in sitting there talking. There's another approach where they're testing, they're using your body to inform you on what's happening, um, from an emotional level too. So I'd love— I think you should go to a kinesiologist.

Josh: And so, Sebs, what's the official definition of a kinesiologist?

Mason: What can it— kinesiology is a form of therapy that uses muscle monitoring or biofeedback to look at imbalances that may be causing disease or stress in the body.

Tommy: Yeah, that's exactly what you need, dude. You know, you're like, oh, my back hurts because I'm stressed at the moment. It's like everything's connected, and I agree with that. Like, that's just real. That's just—

Josh: it's the whole thing of like, you're left— like, if your fucking left side hurts, it's because you're sad or some shit.

Tommy: I mean, it's— they're all feedback. It's like your gut's unsettled because you're feeling something about—

Josh: you ate fucking 4 frozen eclairs for fucking dinner.

Tommy: All right, to finish this up, finish this off, Sev, what happened? Um, Grace got a message yesterday.

Josh: Oh, from her mum. Uh, yeah, the, the, the war between—

Tommy: let's see.

Josh: Yeah, I don't even know if he knows. Grace messaged me about it. Do you know about the message?

Tommy: Oh, sorry, was that you?

Josh: Yeah, that was me.

Mason: Yeah, that was Josh. I— Something about the chocolate éclair being a profiterole.

Josh: Yeah. So, so she was saying that the chocolate éclair— Because I said this, this tastes a bit like a profiterole, and Grace's mum said, uh, chocolate éclairs are in fact just profiteroles.

Tommy: Dude, that's controversial. Yeah, she may be right. Yeah, but what I got—

Josh: anti-vaxxers, there's non-mask wearers, and then there's profiterole versus éclair. They're in sort of the same area, I believe.

Tommy: I tell you what, from your, your old school bakery down here in Bulleen, the chocolate éclair does not look like a profiterole. A profiterole, you don't see the cream you have to bite into experience the cream. An old-school chocolate éclair from a bakery, you're seeing the cream flowing out of it.

Josh: You should be able to see—

Tommy: You've lost your mind.

Josh: You should be able to see the fake cream. I think that, uh, the— a profiterole is closer to a fucking, um, doughnut than a, uh, than a chocolate éclair, don't you think?

Tommy: Well, If you're looking at a doughnut, usually doesn't have it sort of seeping out. I mean, a profiterole, what I'm looking at right now when I search it is what I had yesterday. But what you had yesterday is not what this looks like.

Josh: So, a profiterole is closer to a jam doughnut than a chocolate éclair. An éclair is an oblong pastry made with The exact language, the exact way the language that Grace's mum said was an éclair is a long profiterole.

Tommy: Yeah, interesting, because according to profiterole versus éclair on Google, profiterole or chèvre crème is a filled French pastry ball with a typically sweet and mostly filling of whipped cream, custard pastry or cream. An éclair is an oblong pastry made with choux pastry filled with a cream and topped with chocolate icing. So yesterday you ate what's an éclair. I reckon I had what was closer to a profiterole. No, but in my mind— no, from what they've said here, Josh, but from what— in my mind it was the other way. This is, this is deep. I'm going down a rabbit hole on this one.

Josh: Studio Derek says profiterole is the exact same materials as a chocolate éclair, just a different shape and set of exposure.

Tommy: I mean, this is great, this is great. Should we go— should we do a profiterole versus éclair tour? We just go around buying as many of these as we can and we'll see.

Josh: Yeah, I'm not interested. I'm not interested in profiteroles.

Tommy: Um, Me too, I swear I am. Because sometimes they can be a bit like soggy, like they're just, yeah, they're not up for them.

Josh: And it's also like the hard chocolate, like what I find is maybe it's just I've never had a good profiterole, but I put like, when I think of profiteroles, I think of 2003 mum having a tray of them that she bought and they're in the fridge and the plastic tray, like the It's got a lid and the lid is a little bit frosty because it's been in the fridge and you open it up and the profiterole, when you bite into it, the chocolate separates from the actual profiterole, from the roll. And so, you end up with this almost ice magic icing thing that is separated from it and you have no idea of what is happening in the middle until you bite in, which is my criticism of the chocolate éclair yesterday.

Tommy: So, Calvin White said he's a qualified chef. Verified eclairs equal long profiteroles.

Josh: Okay. I think— Verified éclairs. Yeah. I think that you'll find that— Did you see what Scooter was saying?

Mason: In fact, he had— If he took a guess, chocolate éclairs were invented using the extra pastry from someone using a croquembouche made out of profiteroles.

Josh: Well, yeah, I think that there's definitely a, um, that maybe the éclair in hindsight is a deconstructed— I'm really coming around here, but it's a, it's a deconstructed profiterole.

Tommy: Yeah, and a bit bogan. It wasn't—

Josh: do you reckon like it's bigger?

Mason: Just needed more.

Tommy: Well, but usually, and, and usually the, like, the Aussie bakeries The bakehouses that do it, it's not like you'd think the higher-end ones are filled with cream, but then the— Oh, sorry, custard. And then the, you know, more bogan ones are like that whipped cream that has that much sugar in it that you can— It's like fluff.

Josh: Well, my mum loves the— So, her favourite chocolate éclair was at Power Road Bakery in Doveton, which is where we went and I got a smiley face before that shoot that we did.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was great.

Josh: And so there, but what she likes about it is she likes the fake, I believe, I'm not crossing my wires, the fake cream done right is actually better than the real cream, I've heard.

Tommy: I agree with Lynne Janson. I like it. It's naughty.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It's naughty, but it's a bit bogan. I am a bogan for sure.

Josh: Do you know why in Italy they don't drink cappuccinos after 11:00 AM? Why?

Mason: So, they can sleep.

Josh: Well, yeah, no, there was a great— There was a great video. I can't remember the guy's name, but he does all coffee style videos on YouTube. He's very, very good, an English guy, and he deconstructed the whole thing around what it is. People talk about the heaviness of a cappuccino and things like that, but he went a little bit broader and talked about lactose malabsorption. And so, he went through the scientific stuff around— What are you smiling at, Seb? No, I just—

Mason: I was looking at Grace because she had a coffee the other night.

Josh: Oh really? What time? Yeah.

Mason: Ah, this is at 6 o'clock.

Josh: Okay. It's late.

Mason: It is late.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so anyway, she had some work to do later on that night. Baseball.

Josh: Actually, baseball's all in the morning. But the, um, yeah, no, so the, it was, it's just very interesting. Like, I think that that's something I could definitely get into is, um, I mean, we haven't even mentioned that it's, yeah, well, just like the really understanding. Um, like, I was thinking about coffee art. So I watched a 25-minute YouTube video 2 days ago of a cafe time-lapse. I actually think I saw— I'm going to send it to you because I think I saw one of our clients, uh, one of our clients at a cafe in the time-lapse. Like, it made into time-lapse, and then I, like, was Googling their office location to see if it was right. Anyway, they, um, yeah, there's, there's, there's a whole scene of cafe time-lapse videos from Melbourne. And obviously if you go back like 6 months ago, everything was fine and you could see it all. Yeah, but they, um, they have like coffee art cameras set up, and so you can watch them doing the coffee art. And so I was thinking, oh, maybe I could become like the coffee guy in regards to Like maybe where I'm having the issue is the Moccamaster. I can't really do milk stuff, so maybe I need like a frother and a whole, you know.

Tommy: Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not.

Josh: Have you—

Tommy: I'd put my money on it that you've had a strong coffee today.

Josh: Have you? I've had a coffee already, yeah. Am I fired up?

Tommy: Yeah, you're fired up. It's good. It's all good.

Josh: It's organised, August too.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: Well, I— you did, which I reckon we get to tomorrow about that list because I've got a few things things on that list that you put out a year ago that I want to double-check on. So save it for tomorrow's weekend, Ben, please.

Josh: Sebbs, can we get a montage of TJ trying to wrap up the show every single time and me continuing? I think that'd be fun.

Tommy: Right, I think it's— that's why I say the coffee, because you'll keep going. You will keep going.

Josh: It's the Daily Talk Show. Enjoy your weekend. Enjoy your cappuccino. You've got about an hour and a half left, um, before you have to wrap that up. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow for another Weekend Banter. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.