Fluff's Erika Geraerts On Brand Voice & Intuition

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 778.

Tommy: Special guest in the studio, the virtual one, Erica Gerratz. How are you?

Josh: Welcome, welcome. Hello, hello.

Erika: Thanks for having me.

Tommy: I mean, you may be mistaken as a botanist with the beautiful plants that you have littered around. I mean, I'd love to be able to say that I've got a flashy title as a botanist.

Josh: You're not a botanist either, but you're not a botanist.

Tommy: What, what What's, uh, shit starting question, what's your title that you give yourself, or have you sort of, you just adapt in the moment?

Erika: At Fluff? Yeah, no, as a botanist, just a person who bought too many plants one day and now has to live with them. Um, at Fluff I call myself head of Fluff. So I have an aversion to titles, and I think that they don't do anyone any good, especially in a startup. There's like a whole thing around title inflation. So as a joke, we all just call head of something. And head of fluff is more like where my head is at. It's in the clouds all the time. There's so much shit going on in it.

Tommy: Um, yeah, I like that because I mean, I think we're the same, JJ. But then there's the also the other side of owning a business that you almost— it's legally you have to at least put something on paper. I mean, what is the difference? I mean, you've employed a lot more people than us. Do you have to actually label it as something other than Head of Fluff or are you legit going Head of Fluff?

Erika: I mean obviously in terms of setting up a business you have to have a managing director so you could call me that if you like but my version is more for the people out there who run a blog and call themselves the founder and chief creative director and editor and it's like it's just you, like who are you kidding?

Josh: You have on your email signature I feel like you've got like an animated animated GIF where it flicks through like about a million titles.

Erika: Yeah, so that's sort of my little like taking the piss out of it, which is really just what Fluff is trying to do in general, like subtly have digs at the industry. Um, yeah, so there's a few little things that roll through that I do.

Josh: And so is it, um, beauty, cosmetics? How do you describe where Fluff fits?

Erika: Yeah, it's a really tough one, and I struggle to tell people what I do, but it's, you know, after 3 years working on Fluff for a a little bit more comfortable in sort of saying that we're a casual cosmetics company, but we really believe beauty's so much more than makeup, and that's the reason why we exist, to discuss that and to challenge the industry and what they've been kind of spinning for however many decades.

Josh: What's your favourite bullshit that the industry's been spinning?

Erika: Oh, just that you can reverse the signs of aging.

Tommy: You mean I can't remove cellulite with a little bit of this cream?

Erika: Sorry to tell you guys, but you are going to get wrinkles.

Tommy: I know it's— and so, I mean, how are we allowed to still in 2020 market in this way? I mean, you guys obviously don't do that, but there's obviously a whole market that does pry on people's insecurities, play to people's insecurities.

Erika: Yeah, and it's rampant on social media, and there's so much that we don't see or don't have access to in general, but that are really like preying on minorities, which is really hard and frustrating for us. I often say that I need to have blinkers on so that I don't get distracted by the shit that's happening in the industry. But mostly because, you know, there are regulations on social and we're sort of cracking down on some areas, but there's so many blurry lines, I guess, and little things that you can get away with that it's— and there's too many business businesses out there to try and track them all.

Josh: What is a beauty or cosmetics company, do you think? Is it a, is it a product company? Is it a marketing company?

Erika: Well, I think the really great beauty companies these days are a mix, and we see a lot of them becoming more sort of tech companies, like they really have some advanced services or technology and systems like underpinning what they're doing. But I think it's really around being customer-focused and sort of like building a community and sort of listening and responding to what they want. Because there's enough products in the world as it is. I don't really know why anyone is starting a business anymore just because they work— they have a product idea. It's really hard to innovate in that area in beauty these days.

Tommy: I mean, some of those products were— or brands that we referencing ones that are doing really well, but obviously they're moral— they don't have morals. They're just selling to insecure people, you know, like all of us are. In terms of sort of looking to, as a founder of a business, looking to— because you could easily look at one of these companies that is selling bullshit cream that is making a lot of money and thinking, how are they doing that? Why are they doing it? For you, What has been your version of what does success look like for you in your business, even 3 years ago when you just started Fluff?

Erika: Yeah, so this is like a daily struggle I have, and hence why I say I need blinkers, because I often get distracted by a lot of these companies that are selling products that are either just shit in terms of their formulas or their packaging, but especially in terms of their messaging, and there's no real reason for them to exist, and yet they are, and they're making a lot of money and profiting off impressionable consumers and especially young people's insecurities. And it's hard because, I mean, for me, Fluff will be successful when it raises enough awareness that those brands or those companies don't have relevance in the industry and that there are less of those, and then the companies that do have meaning or do have significance, I guess, rise to the top and have more relevance and can penetrate mass audiences and sort of cultivate that awareness or conscious consumption.

Josh: Do you think that it's a hard thing to create a business before the audience, uh, say, ready for that change? And how do you educate the audience?

Erika: Yeah, it's so hard. I think that fluff was probably a couple of years ahead of where consumers were when we launched 3 years ago. Um, and there's still a lot of conversations that we have that either aren't landing or is quite polarising for consumers because they're not ready for it. What are some examples of self-awareness?

Josh: What, what are some of those conversations that are sort of polarizing?

Erika: So when we first launched, we started with just a social platform before we started with our products, and we were trying to have conversations. And two of the topics were, why do we even wear makeup? And why do we even take a selfie? And if you try and challenge people on their answers to those questions, you'll find that like immediately they're quite defensive, and then sort of afterwards they can't really answer why they participate, um, in these industries or with brands or companies in the way that they do. Or what they'll start to do is start sort of unearthing how they're part of a system and how we have been in some ways a little bit brainwashed and how we aren't maybe thinking for ourselves or making decisions for ourselves.

Josh: And so how is—

Erika: I sound like a conspiracy theorist or some like crazy person.

Tommy: I love it. I mean, obviously it's like asking my wife why you like wearing that red lipstick and she says it's for her, it makes me feel good. But then if you were to sort of peel back layers, it's like, is it for you? I don't know. And then you sort of just—

Josh: Are you worried about some bloke at work or something? Is that what's happening?

Tommy: Well, yeah, I mean, it's always what's the second, third, fourth layer to—

Erika: Exactly.

Tommy: What's the fourth answer? And so do you think if you were to ask yourself, even though you think the answer is it makes me feel good, That might not be the answer for you, but do you think that there is more to it? Like, what has been your sort of investigation as a conspiracy theorist? No, you're not.

Erika: Obviously not. Oh, it's fine. I'm definitely crazy. So, I love asking people why or just being— I think I'm a really curious person by nature, so I'm always like, okay, like, tell me more about that. Where did that come from? Like, where do you think you learnt that? I don't think I would be asking people these questions if I hadn't been and aren't still asking myself these questions. And I don't have all the answers, like I struggle often. And so it makes me feel like, well, if I'm struggling, there's probably more people struggling and that we can have these conversations together. Um, I saw recently some meme on social media and it was exactly what you commented on, how so many women in particular may answer that they wear makeup for themselves, but COVID has really shown that maybe that's not true, because when everyone's just home by themselves, they're just in casual, like, really bummy clothes and not putting on any makeup. So it's like, that doesn't really make sense then.

Josh: Um, yeah, why do we have jeans? Why do we wear jeans? Shouldn't we all just wear tracksuit pants?

Tommy: They are comfy.

Erika: So I think when we sort of ask ourselves why, or, you know, a lot of women, and even myself included, might say that we wear makeup because it makes us feel better or makes us feel nice, and there's nothing wrong with that. And so then I might ask, okay, well, why does it make you feel nice? And I could answer, I just feel a little bit more alive, or I feel more pretty. So then I'll ask, okay, well, what— why do you feel like you're not pretty without it? And then people go, oh, well, I don't really know, like, I just look worse. And you just keep kind of asking, like, trying to peel away the layers and be like, why do you think you look worse? Like, where would you have gotten the idea that you without makeup is a worse version of yourself? And that's where people often pause and they're like, oh yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's because we're only showing images of people looking their best or wearing makeup. And then when we see images of people not wearing makeup, we're told that they look awful, or look at the real them without it and how they're tired. Like, we associate not wearing makeup with looking less.

Josh: So, um, how do you then work out what product to actually create? Because I guess if you're pushing back on the system, it could essentially be an ad campaign where it's like, hey, don't buy anything, brought to you by—

Erika: oh yeah, I know, it's the most backwards business model. We're a makeup company telling people to wear less, and we're also using social media to tell people to get off their phones, um, and stop spending so much time on Instagram. And that's a challenge for me ongoing. And you know, when you have stakeholders involved as well, like how do you tell them how you're gonna make money or sell products? So, for me, what I always have to say to people is that Fluff is like, I can't really explain it in a 30-second elevator pitch. Like, I, the whole reason we exist is because I wanna sit down and spend time with people and tell them what we're trying to do and that it's because having spent 5 to 6, 7 years in the industry and talking to consumers and founders and influencers and realising this kind of growing sentiment of distrust and dissatisfaction in the industry, But then also saying that it's not about completely removing yourself and boycotting products. Like, we can use makeup and it is okay to feel more in it so long as you don't feel less without it. And that's kind of one of the biggest things that Fluff is trying to achieve, is have products that don't alter your face or involve covering up too much, but just accentuate what you've got so that when you're not wearing makeup, you feel more comfortable without it. Um, and also just our messaging that we're putting out there in terms of trying to not rely on sort of typical standards of beauty or traditional sort of very sell, sell, more, more messaging.

Tommy: I know you've, um, done some, uh, capital raising for the business. How much has, uh, or has there been any shift from the vision from when you started solo to then getting people investing money into, you know, your baby?

Erika: So I probably look over our original investment deck, I reckon, every maybe 3 to 6 months just to keep myself on track. And I can sometimes convince myself that I've lost the plot and we're doing something totally different, but every time I come back to it, I'm like, no, the The vision and kind of the original message is still there. Our execution on that vision has just sort of been different or much probably slower than I expected it would have been, but I can rationalise everything based on some of the decisions that we've made and then the response from audiences. Yeah, it's interesting.

Josh: How do you hire? 'Cause I guess if you get people who are just coming from the industry, they might have some of the stuff built in that you're trying to push back on. Have you got certain questions or systems to try and hire the right type of people?

Erika: Yes, that's again another big challenge for me is that everyone is sort of set in their own ways and how do you tell someone or prepare them for what they're going to go into when there's nothing anything to compare it to. Oh, I keep losing my earpod.

Josh: It's a bloody earpod. This is your, um, my version. It's the ears.

Erika: Is it my ears that are wrong, not the earpods?

Josh: Well, I reckon, well, you were saying you've got small ears, ear holes. So, if you've got small ear holes, maybe you need to put the bigger— I've had a lot of AirPod issues.

Tommy: Hang on, how do you land on knowing that, like, I wouldn't even think about my ear hole size.

Josh: You don't really think about until you get the AirPod Pros.

Tommy: Oh God, really just putting us into a box, aren't they?

Josh: Yeah. And so that's why I was like, I don't like this.

Erika: The other ones are fine.

Josh: I can try the big— try the bigger, the bigger ones. I reckon that could potentially help. But yeah, so, um, yeah, the hiring process.

Erika: Yeah, sorry. Okay, so it's hard to sort of sit down with someone because we all are like, we like working off what's familiar, right? That's why everyone's losing the plot right now with COVID because it's this is unprecedented and no one's like ever been put in this situation. They don't have anything to compare it to, to know what to do. Um, and with Fluff, it's like, how do I say— there's nothing that I can say, oh, we're like this brand, or we're like this company. We're really trying to make our own rules up along the way. And each person that we've brought on to, I've really tried to involve them in that process and say that Fluff can be whatever they want it to be, or their role within Fluff can be whatever they want it to be, and that you know, we're trying to break like traditional beauty standards and challenge the industry. So they kind of have to forget everything that they know, and that's hard because it involves, or might seem that then I have to shut down a lot of ideas that have worked for other companies and are working really well for other companies. And there are a lot of quick wins or strategies that Fluff probably could implement employ, but because of our sort of mission and where we want to go, we just have to sort of stand strong and be like, no, that's not our vibe. That's not what we're going to do.

Tommy: How much is that— is that listening to your internal feeling of what is right, like intuition? Is that how you see it?

Erika: Yeah, I struggle a lot with knowing when to like run towards or run away from my gut feeling, and I think it's something that when you run your own business. It's just a long sort of journey. Maybe some people are better at listening to that earlier on than I am, but I think it's just something that I'll constantly be challenged by and kind of go in between.

Tommy: I mean, is it a feeling of knowing you're on to a winner? I mean, it's like we believe in what we're doing here at the Daily Talk Show, big media company. Is it a matter of like convincing other people that are a part of your journey, that are part of the business, that yeah, no, this is how it is and this is what we're doing? Like, are you convincing staff members?

Erika: Um, I think the biggest job I have is actually to convince myself, because when I have that conviction, it's like no one can really stop me and everyone will just sort of like do as I say. But when it becomes hard is when I can't convince myself and I'm unsure and I'm sort of stuck in this limbo, and then and I can't do that job of, say, storytelling or showing my employees like where we're headed and what it is that I want to achieve.

Josh: Do you have a sense of what success looks like?

Erika: For me, I think, or what I often have to tell our investors or what we sold them on was that Fluff was at minimum a 5 to 7-year plan in terms of getting the traction that we would need before we establish ourselves as a company that will hopefully be around for 20, 30 years. I really want Fluff to be known like locally but also internationally as a brand that sort of challenged industry norms and provided an alternative brand and message for consumers. Whereas every other brand or company tells you to buy more and with more you are more, we sort of want to encourage buying less but feeling more.

Tommy: I was on your site, lovely. Great looking products. Uh, I was noticing though, like, and it's something I think we've been thinking about a bunch, is the trademarks and the right reserves. And, you know, the beauty industry has so much. I was in the shower the other day looking at a product my wife has, and I was reading the bio of it, and it was like midway through and they'd like have a trademark on a specific word. And then I saw you guys, you've got a bunch of trademarks. Yeah, Shop Casual Cosmetics and make under. What's the difference between the little R symbol and the TM symbol?

Erika: The registered and the trademarked. It's really around usage and classifications and industries where you can use them. Um, and trademarking is a really interesting one. Like, we burnt through a lot of cash doing that, and I don't know if I would strongly suggest to startups doing such. But the hard thing about coming off the back of Frank Body and launching a new business was I sort of had all this insight into what would be required and to all the work that we were trying to do later on to catch up on. And so with Fluff, I was like, cool, I'm going to try and do this from the beginning so we're not kind of running chasing after our tail later on. Um, but yeah, it can feel very unnecessary when you're going slower.

Tommy: I guess, Josh, that's like you saying, uh, act as if it's going to be the big thing.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. I think at the same time that it can be a bit of a trap. It's like speaking to a law firm and getting all of these agreements and working out the costs and saying, okay, well, um, uh, yeah, what is it? What's this really doing? Like, I think that sometimes we can fall into the trap of going into it with a posture of this is going to be the biggest thing ever. And especially if you've worked at companies where it's like 'Oh, there's been trademark issues' or whatever it is. But then there's the fact of like, when you have trademarks, you then have to fucking protect them. And so then it becomes like every trademark you have is essentially a liability in regards to legal costs that you have. What's your opinion, Erica, on intellectual property in general?

Erika: I have many opinions, and I sigh because it's exhausting. And you know what, it's like, if people are going to probably try and copy and rip off your shit no matter what, even if you have trademarks. And it, it's, again, there's so many sort of blurry lines, like what you can get away with in any industry now in terms of slightly changing product design. And in beauty, like formulas, it's— there's so much is very similar. So it's like, what is worth trademarking and what could you fight? And you know, if you are fighting it, are you just in shit anyway? It wouldn't matter if you had the trademark or not. Um, I think that unless it's something like very, very specific to your brand and company, um, that you really feel like you need to defend, then in some cases it's probably not worthwhile. I mean, in frankly experience, people sort of using similar names and a lot of similar designs, and there was— there actually wasn't much we could do about it. And we had to have a conversation internally where it was like, we can spend all of our time and energy and money on trying to fight these, or we can put that time, energy, and money just into strengthening our own brand and business.

Josh: It sort of feels like the, um, yeah, there's, there's two different approaches. There's the, um, you look at, say, the taxi industry and Uber, and you can look at, uh, playing the position of defending your position versus constantly trying to disrupt yourself so that you don't have to worry about sort of— I guess when you go into the defending position, there can be a sense of stagnation that's happening, or that you've arrived at the thing that you're going to do, whereas we know it's continually evolving. What was the first product that you launched with, with Fluff?

Erika: So we launched with our Bronzing Duet, which is this zamak metal compact. For you guys, I don't know if you know what a bronzing powder is. Many guys I still laugh at when they're like, "What do I do with this?" and I just assume that they know. So it's just a powder, obviously gives you the illusion of a suntan. There's no sparkles in it, but our product or the compact it comes in is really beautiful. So it's weighted, it's made of metal, it's refillable, and it's this beautiful mirrored cloud shape. This is the lip one, which is smaller. So it's not really like traditional beauty packaging, which is obviously plastic and cheap and shit, and doesn't look nice and isn't really interesting to look at.

Josh: It doesn't look like the shimmer that Bree used to wear when we were younger. You know, you'd do the whole shimmer look. Is shimmer still in? Shimmer a thing?

Erika: It is, unfortunately. Still like getting around looking like disco balls, and I was I'm not one of those girls. And you know, there'll always be a place for that. That's actually the beauty of makeup in this industry is that it's about expression. And if you want to look like a disco ball, go crazy. But Fluff is more that alternative for sort of wanting to look like yourself and letting your sort of your skin and your freckles and everything show through.

Tommy: Do you think people are better at doing makeup these days based on YouTube and things like that?

Erika: Oh yeah, it's, it's amazing. It— what social media and YouTube has done is really challenged like the professional industry in general, whether you are a makeup artist, whether you're a photographer, whether you're a filmmaker. These younger generations, and that's why I'm so fascinated by them, have access to so much information. And when they want to learn a new skill, they just look it up on YouTube and they're able to, to do so. And it's why we have so many incredible makeup artists online. Like, they are teaching themselves this stuff, whereas previously we never had access to that information before.

Josh: Do you think that the Australian market specifically— I don't know where I heard this, but around Australians tend to hide blemishes or things like that. They sort of use more makeup to, to mask things, where places like, um, Europe or other parts spend more time in fixing those issues. Have you, have you heard this? And are there any culturally specific things you see that the Australian market's doing that's different to international?

Erika: Yeah, it is really different, um, for each market. And that— but there's also like subsets within each market, do you know what I mean? So Australia, people would say that we're very much about like A-beauty and natural and just focused on skincare and having that golden, glowy, fresh face look. But there is a huge community of, um, consumers who prefer and I guess look up to and like the heavy performative makeup view. So there's sort of like contouring and stuff. Yeah, every market has that. And just like in America where you might say that there might be an overwhelming response or market for brands like Kylie Cosmetics, um, they also have some incredible like leaders in the natural look. So yeah, but then you have sort of obviously like K-beauty, and then there's, you know, people who have like 20-step routines. So it's really different. And what we've really realised is you can't be for everyone. And, and some people ask Fluff to be all of that, like they ask if we're gonna release a foundation, if we are gonna have, say, a toner or 10 different skincare products. But that's not our vibe, and we really have to I guess, stay true to that. And it's really easy to think that you should be pulled in a certain direction and want to do that kind of stuff. But yeah, I have to remind myself, and I feel lucky I have people around me to tell me that I promised I'd never do something.

Josh: How much— I was just gonna say, how much of it is marketing? So for instance, how similar is that, um, the bronzing product to like, uh, do you remember Thin Lizzy back in the day? The Thin Lizzy, there was is it like, how much of this stuff is taking the Thin Lizzy, uh, creating a brand around like, don't use so much, simplify it, cut out a couple of, of the, um, the bad shit if there's anything that's sort of harmful, uh, redesign the packaging so that it's not obnoxious and that's stylish? Like, how— like, what is the, the process? And how is, say, a fluff product different to, say, the other end of the spectrum, which is like a, you know, a TV, uh, a seen-on-TV product?

Erika: Yeah. Um, so we get compared to like the formula into Thin Lizzy a lot, and I'm fine with that. I take it as a compliment. And it is just— I think products in general are just usually the product of evolution in terms of us being like, cool, I like this, but how can it be better?

Josh: I can't believe I hit the nail on the head with that Thin Lizzy comment.

Erika: Yeah, you did it. Well done. How do you even know about—

Josh: I just remember Chemist Warehouse. No, just like being, you know, Danos Direct, all that sort of shit.

Tommy: I wonder how Lizzy's doing.

Josh: Jeff Jowett with these protein bars and stuff.

Erika: Yeah, the YouTube video for Thin Lizzy, the original one, is like amazing.

Josh: Um, well, because it was all in one, right? It was like, you know, you could do everything.

Erika: 6 in 1. You can use it, put it on your knees if you want. I mean, for us, bronzing, when we did a lot of research for almost 2 years before we launched Fluff, and we're really looking into the most frequently used products and sort of the base products that a woman or a person who uses makeup might like. And we really, like, it boiled down to a lip product, like a lip balm, a powder of sorts, and mascara. And of those 3 products that we were developing, the bronzing powder was the first one that was ready that we were happy with. But I always say like, there are very similar formulas on the market to Fluff. There are other brands who use metal.

Josh: Still got a landline. You got a landline at your joint? So, and that's my doorbell. Oh no, that's all good.

Erika: So yeah, there's nothing, there isn't really that much. Yeah, you can draw parallels. And I remember when I went to big beauty expos And it's just like so much of it is the same. It's just tiny little tweaks that they— people make. But that's why I think brand is so much more than just your product or your logo. It's everything coming together. And I think it's what is the— obviously the first thing that people interact with, with Fluff, seeing us either on social or hearing about it from a friend. Like, they— our message is resonating because our message is quite different, because a lot of people have enough makeup as it is, but then they're choosing to align their purchases with their values.

Tommy: So you have something like Thin Lizzy that's probably been around and done a lot of sales over its time, and then as someone starting a business, you could see that as like their success or not. For your brand, you sort of honed in on— it's like what people think when they see it, which can dictate how much you can charge for it. What is the number one thing you're going for when people see see the brand Fluff? What do you want them to think?

Erika: I would like them to see that there's an alternative message, um, in the industry and an alternative view from a company, um, and that it's a brand probably wanting to support, I guess, their awareness or just their, um, view of themselves as opposed to just going straight for their wallet. I think if I wanted to stay just in the game of making money, I probably would have stayed at Frank, or there's many other things that I could do, or go and work at L'Oréal or a big company. But Fluff is so much more for me than that. And when we see the feedback we get from customers about how our conversations are changing the way they see themselves in the industry, like, that's what makes us want to keep going. And we just want more people to see that.

Josh: You seem like you're a craftsperson around copy. What's some, uh, tips for, say, a small business that's wanting to write copy for their website? What are the common things that they get wrong and what tips would you have?

Erika: I mean, I think it depends what industry you're in and what you're doing, but I think for startups and small companies, I think that it's a really good idea to— everyone's always like, how do I find out what my voice is? But it's like you just— but they don't just start writing. And I would say if you want to be yourself, just do that. Like, why would you employ someone else to be you? Start with you. Maybe then get someone to look over it. Um, we're all trying to be different.

Josh: Yeah, what about the clichés? Like, Frank Boddy's obviously got a very specific tone. Zoe Foster-Blake with Go To has a very specific tone. And then I see it peppered around, you see other people picking up bits and pieces How do you steer clear of clichés, and/or when do clichés actually serve you?

Erika: I think clichés and puns were really in for a while, and I think Frank Boddy was sort of the peak of that, and then everyone started using them and doing the same thing. And then once something sort of gets saturated and hits that critical mass, it's no longer cool or no longer funny. And I would think that consumers are very wary and sceptical now of clichés, and they know that it's just a marketing strategy. I think for someone like Zoe at Go To, like, her voice is how she speaks, sort of, anyway, it's a part of her and her life and even her family, like, that sort of humor, it's who she is, and that's why it feels genuine and true. But if someone was quite serious in real life and then tried to put that across, it doesn't Um, it doesn't come across in the same way. And of course, there's, there's enough people in the world and consumers that it'll resonate with some, and those tactics still do work. But we, especially with the younger generation that we're trying to talk to with our brand, they're like very sceptical of that, and they just want to know straight away like who people are.

Josh: We can keep one of the AirPods out if it's easier for you too, because I think it sounds fine if you pick a better It's gonna be the best promo for Apple. I'm sorry.

Tommy: In terms of— so Frank had the persona, you know, people sort of dug into the brand, understand the founding personalities behind it. I mean, for you, do you think it's— would your advice be to go the persona route so you can take yourself out as a, you know, a founder that has to be you know, the one speaking on the brand. I'm just like, I've, I've thought about it a lot, starting my own business, of do I put myself out there or do I try and build it beyond me from the get-go? What's your advice to found young founders?

Erika: Again, it depends on like your product and your service. It's not necessary for all, but for others, I think people really want to know who is behind a business, especially say in the beauty industry, because there's so many brands. It's like Who am I buying this from? Like, what do they care about? What are their values? What do they stand for? Am I buying something that's just being drop-shipped from China, or am I buying something that someone has worked on and like toiled on for years and, and for reasons other than just making themselves rich? Which is why I think like founding storeys or personal like context or like profiles are more important than ever. And it's just what differentiates content now.

Josh: With all the COVID stuff, uh, I can imagine that if you've got a product business, it can be hard working out, you know, supply chain issues, things like that. Is there a move to make products in Australia? Do you think that that's going to change now after the pandemic?

Erika: Something that we've kind of kept asking ourselves in the first few months of COVID was like, we hope people learn lessons or we hope there is change. And unfortunately, I feel like it's been a temporary change, but consumers and businesses are sort of just going back to how it was. I mean, we're yet to see the full effects of what's going to happen to the economy and businesses. And at Fluff, we did feel a lot in terms of some of our operations and processes. I think that where possible, like, businesses should try and produce locally, but I also understand that if you are producing en masse to meet a demand, it can— there are limitations for doing it here. Um, and a lot of people when they start businesses sort of set themselves up without thinking about or realising where they're going to be in 5, 10 years' time, and if the decisions they make in the beginning are going to come back to hurt themselves 5 or 10 years down the track in relation to, say, like margins and costs and everything. So yeah, I think it's this balance of being reactive but also proactive and, and planning.

Tommy: As a founder, mental health, you know, the hustle culture has been a big, big thing that I think is counter to mental health. What has your approach been to mental health running your own business?

Erika: I like to think that I have a nice balance of wine and therapy and going for walks and having good, a really good community of people to talk to. Um, I, as a founder though, like, something I am really passionate about in the last probably 12 months therapy and having someone external to talk to. And I don't think that therapy should be something that anyone is ashamed of or feels like is a taboo topic. As a founder, you have so much pressure, whether you are working on your own, whether you have a team of 5 or a team of 100, and whether you have investors or not. There's just so many things that you're trying to balance as well then with your personal life. And it's so good, I think, an investment in yourself and your business to have someone to be able to talk to, to get yourself out of your own head. Because without— well, for me personally, without having a psychologist to meet up with and talk to, you really can start to believe your own shit. And sometimes that's good to have links on, but other times it's really good to be called on. On some stuff and try and think about why you make some of the decisions you do or why you respond to events or situations in specific ways. So that's been really important for me. And then it's about obviously just prioritising and knowing what's important and what I need to be at the top of my game. And if that means sometimes taking a night off and having wine, that's so fine. And if that being sometimes working really late and cancelling plans with everyone, that's also good.

Josh: Yeah, you were talking about being allergic to admin before the show. Uh, I haven't seen a therapist, and part of it is the annoyance of admin, having to book the shit in, having to go there, having to speak to the reception person, having to book ahead, all that sort of stuff. Um, how have you found the therapist? What's the experience been like? What's the biggest takeaway from, like, what's the biggest change that you've seen personally by doing it?

Erika: So I remember the day I was like, I think I do want to see a psychologist. And I have like a really good network of like unofficial mentors and friends, and I can talk to my family. So I don't think I was ever short of people to talk to, but it felt like I was missing, say, the right person to talk to and someone that didn't have any emotional investment or connection to my life. And the morning I said, I need to see a psychologist, I got a referral from a friend. And then another counsellor literally walked into our store at Fluff and bought our product, and we just happened to ask what she does, and she told us she was a psychologist. So we were like, great, I'll book in an appointment. And I— if she ever listens to this, this, she really should give me commission because I've got about 10 or 15 of my friends seeing her now and people who own businesses and everyone says they have benefited just in— I think what it does is it shortens your— sorry, it gives space to your response or your reactions to certain events, whereas something might happen to me and I'd usually either get angry or really emotional or upset, I give myself the time to either wait and speak to her and then what she's taught myself about my like patterns of behaviour and what I've learned from my family and from the significant events in my life, like how much that defines me and my response to certain events. And I've been able to now have that sort of awareness and space between it to make sort of more meaningful decisions. Decisions going forward. So it strengthened like my personal relationships, my business relationships, and just my relationship with myself. And as a byproduct of that, I think I'm more creative and more probably emotionally intelligent when it comes to making decisions, especially around interactions with other people.

Josh: I heard that.

Erika: I think—

Josh: yeah, go on.

Erika: I was just going to say I was very I think in a similar way to you, wary of the admin involved in getting a mental health plan and just setting up and the same thing with seeing a receptionist and being in a waiting room. But it's so amazing now and like very— I think if we remove the stigma and just think about it as someone to talk to, like with COVID I've been doing— I do all my calls via Zoom now and it's great. Like I probably feel more comfortable in my own home talking to my psychologist. And I think that, you know, it's very easy to get a mental health plan, but then there are also counsellors that are probably cheaper than traditional psychologists that are the same price if you were on a mental health plan. So there's just options, and just the more you ask around, the more you're amazed at how there are people out there who are like, "Yep, I'm seeing one." And then you just try— there is a little bit of work that you have to get through, because if you don't gel with a psychologist straight away, you want to see someone you want to try someone new and not feel like you're stuck to it. Um, and that's just a bit of time.

Tommy: Do all those friends that you referred go to the same counselor? Like, is she— she got all the secrets on you guys?

Josh: Building them up.

Erika: She has the biggest window to my life ever.

Josh: Um, yeah, but she do 360 reviews.

Erika: But if you trust in, like, obviously her, like, with like privacy, I think it's fine. And I always say it's probably the best investment that you can spend, like in terms of yourself and the benefit that it has for the people around you. It's amazing, but it definitely brings up shit. You've kind of got to go through some pain to get to the other side.

Tommy: Which I, yeah, I mean, I think that's part of the, it's not always just the admin, 'cause you do a lot of admin.

Josh: It's also what admin do I do?

Tommy: Well, you run your— you are living and you pay rent and—

Josh: Bri pays rent.

Tommy: Geez, I'm going to list off everyone. No, but I mean, like knowing it's my aversion to watching a sad movie at times.

Josh: I'm like, why do it?

Tommy: I know what's going to fucking make me feel—

Josh: I bought My Sister's Keeper on Blu-ray. I didn't realise it was a sad film. That was the dumbest thing I'd ever done. Like, it's a very sad film. You shouldn't own that.

Tommy: We try and we move it it's a form of pain to go through personal shit. And so obviously it makes sense that we're trying to avoid it at all costs.

Erika: Yeah, yeah. But the other option is that it just stays in you, and that feels weird.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it's not good, you know. Yeah, I heard on a, um, the Founder podcast that you did, you were talking about the sort of a caveat that you've said around, oh, you know, the founder that I am today, or co-founder I am today, is very different to, uh, the one when you started, um, Frank. And I just thought it was, it was interesting around as you evolve, as you have these experiences, as you have these aha moments, as you see the cycles or some of the, uh, you may go to a psychologist and then look back at other things and like, oh, that was actually like, yeah, this person fucked up here, here, and here, but also like all these patterns that I have contribute to but how do you find reconciling old shit? Like, do you sit down with people and say, hey, I realise here now that I was a contributor to this, or do you just sort of like let it go and look forward?

Erika: I think the biggest reconciliation has to come with yourself, like understanding what you did in it. Say if you have wronged someone or caused someone pain unintentionally or intentionally, that that you'll never be able to control their response or their forgiveness. Like, it has to be you first reconciling that. I think that— I mean, I hope that I'm a very different business owner in 10 years and in 20 years than I am now, in compared to when I was 25 or 21. And that's just a matter of accepting that we have a lot to learn. And I know that sounds really obvious, but I think a lot of people go about their lives as if they don't have anything more to learn, and that's the biggest mistake I think any founder can make. You know, there is, with every person that we meet and every decision we make, there are sort of flow-on effects that, you know, and just as the world evolves, we want to kind of operate in it differently. So, I think I can look back on decisions I made at Frank and at Willow even when I was working for someone else when I first finished uni, and I just have more understanding of the, the mind frame that I was in and why I chose to do the things that I do. And now I hope that I'm making sort of better decisions or more informed decisions, and that in 10 years it'll be even the next level of that.

Josh: Yeah, you talk about storytelling. Being a natural storyteller, I think, can have a lot of benefits, especially when you're working on brands. Trends, uh, when it comes to creating narratives and storeys that, um, around your life? I guess it can be destructive. Uh, Tommy says that I create some pretty good stories.

Tommy: Some of the best.

Josh: Yeah, some of the best.

Tommy: It's not true.

Josh: We don't know yet, do we? Um, are you, um, do you create storeys and connect dots, and do you have any mechanism around when that serves and when it doesn't?

Erika: Yeah, I think it's a challenge if you are a creative trying to wear, say, like business or logistics boots or a hat, because you sort of feel torn or they feel counterintuitive. But storytelling is like where I started, or as a writer or copywriter, and I still enjoy it the most in my job. It's funny, one of my One of my staff challenged me yesterday. She said, "When was the last time you wrote something you thought, 'Ooh'?" Former staff, I think. And I was like, "No, like, good point." And you know, you can get so caught up in the business side of business that you forget sort of why people are buying from you and why you have a business is usually because you've created a storey that people are interested in. But it is really hard sort of day on day to be creative or to tell a story, and then year on year, that's the biggest challenge. And especially when you see people repurposing or recrafting the storeys that you've created. And it would be foolish for us to think that the storey we came up with 3 years ago for Fluff wouldn't need revisiting or wouldn't need tweaking.

Josh: Do you think investors get that? Do you think like you tell a storey at the start say this is what it's going to be, you have your, your deck, you do your presentation, and then you evolve. How do you communicate that evolution to investors?

Erika: Um, I think that it does involve constant communication, and communication is the biggest thing for me in any relationship, whether it's business or personal. And it sometimes feels really hard when business is slower than you might have expected it to, or the journey that you first sold people on is taking longer to really stand by that storey and that vision. But it is usually what investors first go for. They want to speak to you and to the person who created it, because when you think about it, they have the money, and if there wasn't a storey involved, they'd probably just go and do it themselves. Like, the product is the easiest part. It's how you sell the product. So yeah, we spend a lot of one-on-one time with a few of our investors who are more involved and who probably need that reassurance or to understand a market that they're not that familiar with. And then there's others who just, I think, trust us completely with what we're doing. Yeah, the investment space is really tricky. It depends on what type of investor they are and what experience they have.

Tommy: You mentioned earlier about explaining what fluff is, and the elevator pitch is one that's a bit harder to do for a brand like this. I mean, is that sort of counter to the investment space? How do you navigate if that is the answer?

Erika: Yeah, and I mean, we had an elevator pitch, like when we wrote our decks too. I had like a 95-page deck, a 30-page deck, and a 4-page deck. And the thing is that when you first tell someone like, oh, I have a beauty brand, they go to a few places. They're either like, cool, you sell at a few markets, or cool, you're another Instagram brand. Or unless it's just like a name, they straight away know. Which is why I sort of— with some people like, what's your point of difference? I have to be like, well, how long have you got? Like, our brand is our But if it was that obvious or that easy for you to see straight away, there'd probably be a lot more people doing it. Like, there's layers and depth, which is Fluff's whole reason to exist, to kind of peel away these layers and to spend time with consumers. We like to say that customer intimacy is Fluff's thing, and that's the next evolution of customer experience. But, and it's what so many brands don't get right.

Josh: How do you create depth on day one?

Erika: I don't think you can, to be honest. Yeah, that's like, can you— it's very rare that you can make someone fall in love with you on a first date.

Tommy: My wife, they won.

Erika: But it's like, or they might based on, yeah, your exterior and a few little like charming lines that you have. But then after a while, it'll begin to sort of— you'll see some cracks tracks or start to get to know you and be like, oh, okay. And that's what Fluff is about. It's sort of accepting us as a whole. Like, we're not perfect. We'd be lying to you if we were. Like, we have flaws, we have imperfections, like just as every human does. But we hope that people understand, take the good with the bad, and that we're evolving and learning just as our consumers are. And we want them to be around for that journey with us.

Josh: So you go to—

Tommy: I was just gonna say, I the love thing, it's, it's got so many other elements involved, right? It's like trust, people seeing enough sort of touch points with your brand where they're being— you're giving them the opportunity to fall in love with you. Yeah, it's a hard one.

Erika: And so, and they're gonna get bored, like love comes in waves.

Josh: It got very deep, didn't it?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah. Just, yeah, you love— yeah, I love my wife. It's our wedding anniversary tomorrow, so that's nice. Yeah, love it.

Erika: Shout out.

Tommy: Um, yeah, it's, it's a funny one because when you start out, you want it to be this thing that you think will be in the future, but it's, it's— how do you go with— because I could imagine you're the type that gets frustrated that you're not 2 years ahead when you've just started, but you've got to start somewhere.

Erika: Yes, actually, Jess, my business partner in Frank, I read somewhere she wrote like stress is this idea of knowing where you want to be and then trying to reconcile that with where you are now. And I think that's really kind of, um, yeah, right. Um, and it's when you have that, I think, like vision that is clear and it's— I mean, I think that Fluff has been a really humbling experience for me, and it's probably a business journey that most people or older generations would have experienced. So we were incredibly fortunate with Frank, and yes, we did work very hard, but it was a perfect storm of right time, right place, right product, um, right price. And that's— it's rare to have that. Not every business has that. So this is sort of of a chance for me to, I guess, go slower and take time to know what it is that I'm doing and who that I'm doing it for, and to experience like that growth, like not to feel like just one day I wake up and I'm like, how did I get here?

Josh: What have you learned about yourself during all the COVID and ISO stuff?

Erika: I have learned that I really like routine and that our office and store provided a routine or a structure for me that I miss. I have learned that my minimum, like, or my ideal seeing people is just once a fortnight, that I actually do love being alone. And I love people, but I reckon I can do 2 weeks without seeing anyone, get my feet weeks of like a small dinner and then go away on my own for another 2 weeks. But it has been interesting for me to just think about online and offline and what we rely on and what it is that we sort of want to do going forward. I think that COVID gave everyone the chance to sort of either get off this treadmill that we've all been on or just slow down the pace completely and take the incline And where do you sit on the treadmill scale?

Tommy: Are you on? You're off?

Erika: I'm on it. I'm still on it. But I reckon that I have taken the incline off and yeah, sort of, I reckon I'm doing sort of sprints. So going fast for a bit and then slowing down.

Tommy: Yeah, fartlek training.

Josh: And so what's on the horizon over the next the next sort of 6 months? What can people expect from Fluff?

Erika: So we have a lot of product development for the next 6 months, which I'm excited about. Um, we are revisiting a lot of our sort of packaging and branding decisions because we sort of had that chance to do that. Um, and then trying to just— I think we sort of paused a bit of our messaging on social, or we're bit scared to be ourselves. Like, we need to take Fluff's message ourselves sometimes. Um, so it's more about just being who we are and not being afraid to say what we think, and even doubling down on our transparency and inviting people into Fluff's world and what we do and who we are. Because that really is our point of difference. There's not many beauty brands, I think, that give you this much of a sort of insight into the people behind the business and the process in the business and invite users to be a part of that journey.

Josh: Where does listening fit in for you? So listening to consumers or listening to culture and what's happening right now?

Erika: Oh, it's everything. And I think that's because a lot of people listen but not actively, and they're there, they don't hear what people say. You know, they're in the room, they're just like, yep, you spoke, my ears picked up on noise, but I didn't hear like what you were trying to say to me or the emotion behind it or the needs behind it. So we really, it's a big thing of us always trying to cheque our ego at the door and just when people pass on constructive or not constructive criticism, being like, what's going, what's behind this? Like, what are they trying to say? What position are they in? Where are they coming from? And then how can we either provide a solution or be better each time. And just anytime someone passes on feedback for Fluff, we try and be like, cool, fair point. Like, we will like see what we can do in that regard. And I just don't think many brands listen. I mean, it's hard when you scale. I don't— and you know, we experienced that at Frank when we went from like the 5 of us to like a team of 30. You know, that was hard enough. I can't imagine what it would be like trying to listen when you're a company of 300, 500, 1,000 employees. It's really difficult.

Tommy: And also when it's really, really working, I guess, you know, Frank selling so much product and it being this thing that is working from the outset, when do you listen? And then when do you go, I'm not listening to that because over here we know it's working? And what we're doing is right.

Erika: Yeah, and because, you know, you sort of feel like anything could change one day. So do we need to be listening and trying to have like a crystal ball to know where something could go wrong? But even when things are going right, that presents itself with a series of problems, especially around growth. And you can sort of lose sight of where you started or think that there's one reason why it's doing doing right as opposed to something else. It's tricky, which is why I think it's really good to have a few people sort of in your close circle who can— who are there to challenge you, who are there to play devil's advocate.

Tommy: Um, yeah, devil's annoying sometimes though, isn't it?

Erika: I was gonna say, so annoying. I'd love— I would love if I could just not listen to anyone, but I know that that's not right.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, I feel like I would, um, Um, if I wore makeup, I'd be a Fluff guy. Like, I went on the— like, going on the website, the design.

Tommy: You can still be a Fluff guy.

Josh: I could be a Fluff guy. What would I— but what sort of the, um, if I'm not a makeup guy and I want to be a bit of a poser, if I was to buy one Fluff thing, uh, what would I buy?

Erika: That was a great sell. I would say the lip oil or the face oil. I've got all of my guy friends onto that, or just a hoodie. But I love that.

Josh: That's full poser. Yeah, I could go the hoodie.

Tommy: I'm supportive, I'm supportive, don't bloody question me.

Josh: I can get around to it.

Erika: I always said I want guys to love Fluff not because they're guys who wear makeup, but just because they support their friends or their girlfriends wearing Fluff or just think it's a cool brand. And, you know, with our store, we have guys coming in, they're not just sitting on the bored boyfriend couch, like they're talking to us too. They think our products are cool and they, a lot of them want their girlfriends or their friends to wear less makeup and they think that they're beautiful without. And so they're like, this is a brand that I wanna support in terms of their messaging.

Tommy: I had some concealer or just like powder when I was younger, I had acne and I really wanted to sort of, this was probably 20, 22. And then I met my wife and she stayed at my place and she found when I was at work some, um, some sort of bronzer or whatever it was, and she was convinced that it wasn't mine. She's like, you wouldn't believe me. It's like, nah, it was mine, it was mine.

Erika: So maybe I feel like a lot's changed since then, and now it's a lot more accepted for men to wear makeup and to care about or to put effort into their appearance.

Tommy: So yeah, what I'm hearing is that I was ahead of the curve.

Erika: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Tommy: Yeah, I was way ahead of the curve. I just had bad skin. I just didn't want to fucking have bad skin.

Josh: Yeah, and it probably didn't do a good job of concealing. Definitely.

Tommy: It was, you know, my skin couldn't breathe. It was Thin Lizzy.

Josh: Thin Lizzy. The whole thing about Thin Lizzy is it's just like a— anyway, I can talk about it off air. Erica, thanks for coming on the podcast.

Erika: I think maybe you worked for Thin Lizzy.

Josh: No, they would really They went real hard on the, um, the TV stuff. I just remember, I think it was a New Zealand company. And yeah, yeah, yeah, um, thank you for coming on, on the podcast. And, uh, yeah, pumped to see that. I'm definitely going to get a hoodie and I'll be wrapping it around Collingwood. Just, I don't know, like, so is it e-com and you've got your Gertrude— have you got an actual store on Gertrude Street?

Erika: Yes, so we had our store which has obviously been closed during COVID and we're just deciding on the next best steps for us and probably relocating. But I do think sort of the future and sort of for businesses is a mixture of online and offline. We wouldn't do traditional wholesaling to your bigger beauty kind of brands, but having our own stores is a really nice sort of addition. And we figure if we have to have an office, we may as well have a shop front.

Josh: Yeah, definitely. Love it. Awesome. Thanks for the chat, Erica. It's The Daily Talk Show. If you want to send us an email, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Erika: See you guys.