Peter Shepherd And The Email Blow Up

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 771.

Tommy: Peter Shepherd, Tall Gronkh, welcome to the show, buddy.

Peter: Thanks for having me, good to be here, mate.

Tommy: I love seeing you. Uh, I feel like this is a good time. We've got you in because we want you to coach me out of a dark hole.

Peter: Oh no, what's up?

Tommy: Lost my Instagram and Facebook. You ready? You want to talk about it?

Peter: I didn't think you wanted to talk about it.

Tommy: Was it? He's coaching me already.

Josh: This is good.

Tommy: He's getting— Look, no, I think I want to talk about it, Pete.

Peter: Okay.

Josh: I'm 3 coffees in today.

Tommy: So you've fed up with my, uh, line of questioning to start with.

Josh: I feel like I've gone past erratic and now I'm like a little bit, um, useless.

Tommy: No, that's, no, that's all right. No, we don't need to coach me out of it. Still got no— I would like to, I would like to out of this episode walk away with a handle. Of a new Instagram account. Like, that's, I mean, that's where your mind starts going.

Josh: I actually nearly went completely against Josh Janson on Instagram.

Peter: You almost changed.

Josh: And was going to change it to be a persona. So, being like the—

Tommy: Who would you be?

Josh: The creative guy.

Tommy: Oh, no, no.

Peter: That would be taken, surely. Yeah.

Tommy: Pushback Janson.

Peter: Pushback Janson.

Josh: I'm pretty sure I did one that was like really silly where I thought like, you know, fuck it, I'm just going to do something that's Like, um, I Love Toast.

Tommy: That's, that's an OG username, surely. Like, if someone has I Love Toast, that's a solid username.

Peter: What's the thought behind that though? Like, what, what, what's it for?

Tommy: Fuck, you're getting coached now. No, I wanted to be coached.

Josh: I think it's got something to do with, um, no, it's just like, you know, being more like maybe being a persona so you can be a little bit more, um, protected. Yeah, you were 2 Meter Tweeter for a while.

Peter: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: What else were you? You've had a few.

Peter: I was 2 Meter Peter, and then I got told that was too confusing because my Twitter was 2 Meter Tweeter, so I changed it to 2 Meter Tweeter. I'm now Human Periscope. But I went down the opposite rabbit hole the other day of like, what if I just went to Peter Shepherd?

Josh: It's a good point. It's a footwear, isn't it?

Peter: But it's not like— you got to be like Peter Shepherd 7349.

Josh: Leather on Lonsdale.

Peter: Spelled differently though.

Tommy: Spelled differently. What's your company name? Oh, you're—

Peter: well, it's like the legal trading name is like, you know, Pete Shepherd Consulting Pty Ltd, but the brand, he's got a, he's got a proprietary, proprietary. That's what you're meant to do.

Josh: Geez.

Peter: But it's— I just go under Human Periscope is the, the— not the legal name, but the brand name that I use.

Tommy: Do you say it as a business? Yeah. And sorry, it is a company, it's a business, but like, sorry, the branding, you— because you do have a personal Instagram account or it's just the business?

Peter: It's, well, it's kind of both meshed into one. I like don't have necessarily clear delineation between a brand account versus Pete the human being. I'm just, it's all just kind of one mess.

Tommy: JJ's the business, Josh Janson.

Josh: I probably do like that. I've got the Josh Janson Productions Trust.

Tommy: I've got the Tommy Jackett Family Trust.

Peter: Here we go. Yeah, mine's called PJS, which are my initials, but it's Spelt P-E-A-J-A-Y-E-double-S. Because I have no idea. I just thought that would be like funny to do.

Josh: When I was a kid, I named my cat My Cat, but spelt it M-Y-K-A-T. Did you really? Yeah.

Peter: That's obnoxious.

Josh: Yeah. And now, so like my mum and dad look after my cat and that's her name. Did you have any pets growing up?

Peter: Never. Not one. Really? I've never owned a pet.

Josh: Bit of a psychopath.

Peter: My parents in jail. What's going on? My mum had the The storey that she told us, which I think is true, is that she was like one of those people that's allergic to all the fur. So, no dogs, no cats.

Tommy: That's pretty fair. I mean, you got to believe her, you know, take her on face value.

Peter: We had two options, goldfish or a horse. And we weren't obviously allowed a horse because we didn't have a big enough property.

Josh: Goldfish? That was an option, though.

Peter: Well, it was like the only kind of fur or hair or— This was the storey I was told when I was like 8, was a horse would be okay, but like, we're not going to get a horse. So, you could have a goldfish.

Josh: What about a lamb?

Peter: My brother and sister had goldfish. And they lasted about a week. I've never had a pet.

Tommy: I mean, they had a horse.

Josh: Look at you.

Tommy: Big man. Do you remember hearing the— It was like a rumour or an old wives' tale. Is that how they— What they say? If you smoked horse hair, you could die.

Peter: Excuse me?

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: If you smoked—

Tommy: Yeah, because it was like we used to roll these like barkies, we used to call them. They were like tan bark that was rolled up. And you'd smoke them. It was just like silly, which has smoking.

Peter: Where's the horsehair coming to it though?

Tommy: Well, it was like if you were gathering stuff and you make sure you don't get any horse— don't get any horsehair cigarette. General discussion, what is the worst thing to smoke? No, but someone just started spreading that. It's probably a parent.

Josh: They're like, yeah, it's a good room.

Tommy: Could be a bullshit storey like your mom if she is actually not allergic.

Peter: I have no idea if she's allergic or not to this because it is like you wanting a horse isn't going to happen.

Tommy: Right. Like she said, didn't have the space.

Josh: I nearly got a lamb. I actually nearly got one.

Peter: A lamb? Really?

Josh: Yeah. We were on a quarter acre.

Tommy: Oh, that's right.

Josh: And we had a lamb at school named Frankie.

Peter: Frankie the lamb.

Josh: And Frankie would like be, what do you call it when they're sort of like not allowed with the other, like a runt?

Peter: Free range?

Josh: No, no, no. No, like it got rejected.

Peter: Oh.

Josh: By the parents.

Tommy: Outcast.

Peter: Loser.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, we looked after Frankie. In the classroom. Your parents were teachers?

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: Are they still teaching or no?

Peter: They're both retired now.

Josh: Yeah. Did you go to the school that they taught at?

Peter: Not originally, but then my dad, in my last 3 years, my dad came to the school that I was a student at. I still remember he sat me down over dinner one night, me, Mum and Dad. He's like, I've got to talk to you about something. I was like, oh, the horse. Am I finally getting a horse?

Josh: Yeah, this is great.

Peter: And he said, I've been offered a job because he was driving to Geelong, which is half an hour away.

Tommy: Yeah.

Peter: And he basically asked for my permission. Would you be comfortable? Would you be okay? Do you want to change schools? Do you want me to say no? And I was like, no, I don't really care. You're welcome to come. He was the assistant principal.

Tommy: Yeah.

Peter: And I didn't really have an issue with it.

Tommy: My friend's dad was the principal of the school he was at. There is a lot of pressure on the students, like if, especially if they're not liked. Yeah. Like, your dad's a likeable guy?

Josh: What's his vibe?

Peter: Well, he's likeable to— He's pretty cruisy, relaxed, likeable kind of guy. But the people that— So, he was like, he was the guy you want to go to if you got in trouble. So, if you went to the principal, the principal's a bit like a bit of a hard-ass, you go, I'll just go to Johnny Shepp and have a conversation with him and it'd be fine.

Tommy: Yeah.

Peter: So, I got friends—

Josh: He was the cool teacher.

Peter: He was kind of the cool teacher.

Tommy: They called him Johnny Shepp.

Josh: Yeah, Johnny Shepp.

Peter: Really?

Tommy: Johnny Shepp.

Peter: Well, if you're like, you know, if you're a naughty student, you don't call people Mr. Sheppard or you're like, oh, Johnny Shepp, like first name basis.

Josh: That's sick. I like that.

Peter: Johnny Shepp was the guy that you wanted to get sent to because he was always like, "No, you're alright." And so, what was his—

Josh: So, teachers have specialties and then go into the whole leadership thing?

Peter: Yeah. Maths and science was his go-to.

D: Yeah.

Josh: How are you with maths?

Peter: I loved it. Absolutely loved it. I was a bit lucky. I had Matt— Sorry, my mum, who was English and literature and right into that and taught that. And then my dad, who was maths and science. So, I feel like I lucked out because I had a resource for both. But I used to love maths.

Tommy: What's their view on the education system at the moment?

Peter: I haven't actually asked them that specific question.

Tommy: Can you also ask them if the storey about allergies is true?

Josh: I'll find out.

Peter: I'll send them this episode.

Josh: With the horse thing.

Peter: If you're listening. Yeah. Please answer honestly.

Josh: What about a pony? A pony seems like a good in-between.

Peter: A Shetland pony?

Tommy: Miniature pony? Miniature pony. What are they called?

Josh: Miniature pony?

Tommy: Yeah.

D: Mini?

Peter: I was— You go past St. Kilda and they do pony rides at the moment.

Josh: Did you ever get into—

Tommy: Ponies are different from miniature horses.

Peter: Are they?

Tommy: Yeah. One's like a— I mean, be careful. Well, it's like a—

Peter: What is a Shetland pony versus a pony versus a horse?

Tommy: Isn't a pony a different species? It's like within the horse family.

Peter: Have we got 97? That's 97.

Tommy: I am fucking 97.

Josh: He's Googling.

Peter: Just look it up, please.

Tommy: Look how quick I am. The main distinction between ponies and horses is height. A horse is usually considered to be an equine that's at least 14.2 hands. Why are they getting handsy with the horses?

Josh: What?

Peter: Is that how they measure?

Tommy: Yeah, hands.

Peter: That's how they measure the height of a horse, in hands.

Tommy: Or about feet 10 inches tall. A pony, on the other hand—

Josh: Wait, feet? How many?

Tommy: A pony—

Josh: How many feet?

Tommy: Or about 4 feet 10 inches. Sorry, I said 10 inches. A pony, on the other hand, pun totally intended.

Josh: This person's editorialising.

Tommy: Seriously.

Peter: Adding gags to their own resources.

Tommy: Is an equine less than 14.2 hands? Okay. So, this is—

Josh: That's horse versus pony.

Tommy: So, basically, Basically, I'm a pony, you're a horse, Pete.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: So, stallion.

Josh: I want to know, Pete, did you ever get in trouble in school?

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: What was the worst trouble you ever got into?

Peter: I— The worst trouble I ever got into. I mean, I was a— I was sort of the kid that wouldn't shut up in class quite a bit to the point where I remember it was like grade 3. I was like just the distracted. I was distracting everybody. And my teacher, Mrs. Metcalf, pulled me aside at the end of class one day and was like, all right, Pete, we're gonna have to sort this out. When you come in tomorrow, I want you to come and see me and we'll fix this. You're distracting everybody. And so I came in the next day and there's this table set up in the corner, bright blue. Every other table was, you know, your standard vanilla kind of boring looking table. And she said it had a print on it, the Magic Blue Table. And she said, Pete, this is your table. It's the Magic Blue Table. This is a true story. And you're going to sit on it and it'll mean that you will be quiet, productive, you know, and you'll get better grades. She told me the whole storey and I was like, I'm in, I'm right into this.

Josh: You're fucking dumb.

Peter: I was really dumb. I was bought into the storey and I sat at the Magic Blue Table for weeks and like just shut up, did my work, got great grades.

Josh: How old were you again?

Peter: I don't think it was like grade 3. I've got a certificate my mum sent it to me the other day that's like from Mrs. Metcalfe. Thanks for, you know, being cooperative at the Magic Blue Table. Yeah.

Josh: Did anyone else get to go on the Magic Blue Table?

Peter: No, it was like specific to me because I was that much of a pain in the ass, I think.

Tommy: Yeah.

Peter: Do you think—

Josh: We were talking the other day, producer Jess was saying that she was more popular in high school. Like, she sort of went through primary school and then became really cool in high school. What was your experience like?

Peter: I don't think I was ever really cool. I was a— I sort of was on the fringe of— We had the two groups that, you know, they're on the fringe. You got the really cool group. They were like the surfers.

Josh: Everyone says this.

Peter: Smoking, taking, you know, taking drugs on weekends and drinking and like partying. And they had all the girls. And then there was like the second group. Was kind of my group, and I was the odd one out because I was like, I was a bit of a nerd. I just wanted to do really well and try and get to Melbourne Uni. So I wouldn't say—

Josh: What'd you get for an ATAR score? Do you remember?

Peter: Uh, I think it was like 92.6 or 92.7 or something.

Josh: Sounds like a radio station.

Peter: It wasn't quite 97, but it was, it was reasonably high for the school I was at.

Josh: I got 40-something.

Tommy: Mate, the blue table paid off.

Peter: Magic blue table.

Tommy: Yeah, seriously.

Peter: Yeah, yeah. So I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wouldn't say I was a cool kid at all.

Tommy: Did you wear glasses your whole life?

Peter: No, no correlation between the coolness and I could see why you weren't cool, mate.

Tommy: No, no. Look at Josh.

Josh: Cool guy. Yeah, I'm cool.

Peter: Cool guy.

Tommy: You had glasses your whole life?

Peter: No, it was like year 11, I think. I was at the back of the class because, you know, backseat tuffy and then would— was that a thing?

Josh: Backseat tuffy? Did I just make that up?

Peter: I was at the back of the class and all of a sudden I just couldn't read what was on the whiteboard. Like, it was like a couple of days. I remember specifically.

Tommy: Wow. So you went from, you reckon, 20/20 vision?

Peter: Wasn't overnight, but it felt like— I just remember the day specifically where I was like, that can't be right. Like it's— I was squinting.

Tommy: Is it part of your brand now, like getting laser surgery?

Peter: Yeah, it doesn't— I kind of like glasses.

Tommy: I think they look great on you.

Peter: What do you think, Josh? Yeah.

Josh: When was the last time you went to the optometrist?

Peter: Couple of years, actually. Yeah, I'm probably overdue.

Tommy: Turns out you're back. You just said— Does that happen? Like he— It could. Go back to 2020.

Josh: Apparently, I never can remember if I'm long or short sighted.

Tommy: Long is close, short is far away. That's how I used to remember it. Why the fuck did they do that?

Josh: It's very annoying.

D: What?

Tommy: Maniac.

Peter: It's a bit like fiction and non-fiction. You're like, so non-fiction is the true one.

Josh: Yeah. Fiction's all made up.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: Did you know how many kilometres away the sun is from the world?

Peter: Absolutely no idea.

Josh: Have a guess.

Peter: 700,000 kilometres. It'd have to be more. I don't know.

Tommy: Double plus some.

Peter: Really?

Josh: Way more than double.

Peter: 1.8.

Tommy: What do you mean? Way more than double. It's 152.

Peter: Million.

Tommy: Oh, you said 100,000. You've lost your mind. We'd be on fire.

Peter: Yeah, I don't know what a ridiculous question.

Josh: No, that's not— isn't it funny? He learns a fact and now he's—

Peter: I have no idea.

Tommy: We would be on fucking fire if we were.

Josh: Yeah, but we don't actually know.

Tommy: Hang on. If we are experiencing global warming, temperatures are going above 50 degrees in some areas, and the moon and the sun is 152 million kilometres away. We would be burning.

Josh: But the thing is, I reckon you wouldn't be a good judge of knowing how far 153,000 kilometres versus 153 million. I think million.

Tommy: Stop projecting, because we know your sense of distance is absolutely fucked.

Josh: I've actually got a good sense of distance.

Tommy: No, absolutely not. We actually did a whole—

Josh: I could tell you.

Tommy: We did a whole piece on this. Remember when you were like, talking about Derek's office and how far away your apartment is. And then we called Derek and you got it like, I remember.

Peter: That was like way back at the old time.

Tommy: Literally, this is the exact exchange. You're like, nah, I got it. We called him and you were like.

Peter: You called him on the episode and he mapped it out for you.

Josh: It's true. Yeah.

Tommy: And it was bad.

Peter: It was legend.

Tommy: It would be very hot. I wouldn't want to live on Earth where it's 70, 700,000 kilometres.

Peter: So, I was way, way, way off, obviously. Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So you actually went surfing, like you mentioned there was the surfing group. We weren't like coastal surfing, like, so as in the cool kids that were surfers.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Did you ever skateboard? Were you a skateboarder?

Peter: No, that was the cool kid thing to do. I couldn't skate for my life.

Tommy: You left it to them, did you?

Peter: Yeah. So it was like, it was like an inflection point when you grow up down the coast. It's like you go, you either like choose to start surfing or you like bodyboard. And I was like, I'm going to bodyboard because I can do tricks on a bodyboard and I can't do anything on a surfboard. And like, you look back at it now, I was like, what a loser. Why couldn't I just surf? Now I was like, like, I would be as good as you at surfing, and I grew up at the coast, assuming that you reckon you'd be as good as me. So you might be— Can you surf? You'd be better than me.

Josh: Well, it's like people that get into lacrosse.

Tommy: Definitely.

Josh: Which, if you're a— if you're a, um, yes, disappointed.

Peter: A professional. Flat.

Josh: If you're a professional lacrosse player, yeah, limited options here in Australia.

Peter: Not really transferable as a skill, is it?

Tommy: No. Yeah, yeah. What's the closest? Hockey. But then you're You're standing up and throwing. There's a big— there is a niche lacrosse community in Victoria.

Peter: Yeah, I've played a game of— when I used to play footy, there was a lacrosse field next door and they'd play while we were playing footy. So there must be a league.

Josh: I sort of like the idea of having, um, like a— still getting gear. So you get the stick, the stick, and I also like the face mask, isn't it? Like a full, full grill. Yeah, I like the idea of sort of practising at home, like going up against a wall and You sort of throw the ball and catch it.

Peter: Did you ever play it at school?

Josh: Yeah, I did.

Peter: Yeah, we did it at PE. It was hard.

Josh: What happened to handball?

Tommy: Still around. Different to downball. We saw someone doing it.

Peter: Oh, European.

Tommy: Remember we were in Geelong, we saw someone just hitting the wall.

Peter: No, that was downball.

Josh: No, no, no, that's two square. But that was downball.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Handball is an actual game where it's almost like soccer.

Peter: It's called European handball, I think.

Tommy: Dodgeball.

Peter: It's like soccer, but with a— you throw it.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Peter: You know that one?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: My uncle owns a sports centre and they Yeah, they had it as one of the games and dodgeball. But how, how, like, thinking about school and, and the cool, like, the way you're describing is the groups, and then you watch something like American Pie and you've got the jocks. And yeah, what I always remember when I come into encounter, when I encounter a young year 10, 11, like, fuck, you're a little, little useless Like, but how important you think you are back then. And nothing changes. You get older, you're in your reality. But when you're looking up at a Year 12 and you're in Year 7, you're like, oh my God, they're so big. You get to Year 12, we get to now 30 and look back at Year 12 and it's like, you know nothing. And still now, imagine looking back at 60, like, you knew nothing as a 30-year-old.

Josh: I would love for you to be a motivational speaker at schools.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter: Listen, all of you, you little fucks.

Josh: You know, you're 12.

Tommy: No, but do you remember the— Even giving it like, I guess it's the power of the human species where we're already at that age in categories and hierarchies and social status. It's like—

Peter: And wanting to be liked, I think was the big one. Yeah. Like desire to fit in and belong and be liked.

Josh: Did you ever do Reach?

Peter: What was Reach?

Josh: So, Reach, they did it at our school.

Tommy: They actually did?

Josh: Yeah. And so, Jules Lund was part of it. There's a bunch of people.

Tommy: Paul Currie and Jim Stein started the Reach. The Beach Foundation, and they were, you know, helping young adolescent kids navigate and equip themselves with life skills and emotional intelligence. And the classic storey of Jules Lund, you know, Jim Steins, who went on to be Jules' mentor, and, and, um, you know, comes to see him in school, and Jules, the tall guy up the back, you know, causing a ruckus. Jim get up on it, get up, stand up right now.

Peter: Calls him out.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It makes him just fall apart in front of everybody.

Josh: Make the bullies cry and stuff.

Tommy: Because, but what he said was like, you don't realise how powerful you are. And so he like built him up. He's like, look at you and what you're doing. You're uncomfortable, but it's like what you possess is more than that. And so he saw a lot in Jules and then Jules was travelling around with him to do all these keynotes.

Peter: What a mentor.

Tommy: And just sort of followed, following. Let's talk about mentors because Amy and I were chatting about she's like, do you have a business mentor? And I was like, fuck, we've got such great people in our world that I don't feel like I need to formalise a mentorship.

Josh: When you've got a business partner like me.

Tommy: But thinking about formalising mentors, and I think there's— what do you think, Pete? Do you think you need to formalise something, or does it just happen?

Peter: I think it's— I guess it's like up to personal preference. I have never formalised a mentorship relationship, but I would say I have mentors. So I guess it's personal preference. Have you, like, have you said to someone, can you be my mentor?

Tommy: I've said to people, uh, I said to Jules once, you're my mentor. Tell me to shut the fuck up. Yeah, yeah. No, but like, that's the close.

Peter: But like, different to asking though, like, can you be my mentor? If you're like, oh, by the way, you're my mentor.

Tommy: What I found was with the people that end up being my mentors, there has been value that I'm bringing to them, which is why they're, I think, giving me time. So Jules saw a lot in me but I've done a lot for Jules and it's like reciprocate. He's done more for me than I could do for him. And Craig Harper as well, the con— you know, just the time he's given me. But I, but I definitely have been knowing where my value for him is and then being able to deliver that. But then I just, I reap the benefit of a relationship with someone like that.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: And so never needed to formalise anything.

Peter: Yeah. Yeah. Like I would say like Seth Godin 100% is a mentor of mine, but I have never said to him, hey Seth, by the way, could you be my mentor? I think there's an interesting observation in all of that, which is like, your mentors don't even need to know you exist. Like, you could say— I would say that—

Tommy: The stalkers say that too.

Peter: No, but you know what I mean?

Tommy: The victim doesn't.

Peter: The world we live in now, you could surround yourself with like Brené Brown, for example, her books, her podcast. I surround myself with her. I would say like, in a way, she's a mentor, but she doesn't need to know I exist. But I look to her.

Tommy: It'd be nice if she did, right?

Peter: Wouldn't it be cool? Yeah. I look to her for ideas when I feel like I need them, but I don't say to her, hey, Brené, you're my mentor, I need you to help me with this. So, I think it's cool sort of each end of the spectrum. Sometimes there's mentors that don't know exist, and then maybe there's some conversations that people have where it's like, could we formalise this? Could you be my mentor? But I've never had that conversation. I think they just have formed naturally for me.

Tommy: And so, do you think it is like, you know, if it's not said, you're not actually the mentor? Like the, you know, but the Brené Brown example, I get it. In the old days, that's just called learning shit from other people, you know what I mean? Like, now we're sort of anchoring this, they're my mentor, they're my guider, the guidance.

Josh: But what do you think, do you reckon there's something in the mentor bit or seeking that? Like, certainly I don't think I've really had a mentor as such. Yeah, what's your perspective on my, like, on my approach to mentorship? Because I don't know if I have No, we have—

Tommy: we're very similar, you and I. Yeah, in that respect, because I think I— maybe what it becomes is like you do the non-mentor agreement mentors, which you just end up being your friends that you learn from, surround yourself with great people. But then there's the business that you have, Pete, where the value in having a coach that's— they're showing up with a posture.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: And I'm getting a service from them.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: Which, I mean, how do you even see that as a coach. You are a coach, which is essentially someone who could be mentoring people. Yeah, for money.

Peter: Yeah, I see the difference in the two. I think a mentor to me is someone who has a certain experience in the thing that you want to do yourself. And so you say, hey TJ, I want to start a daily podcast. TJ and Josh, would you guys like mentor me and help me with that? Versus a coach, which has not— doesn't necessarily need to have the experience that you seek. So like, I work with a bunch of creatives that are, you know, Broadway artists, for example, And I have no idea about like Broadway and performing arts. And that's actually a strength is all I need to be able to do as a coach is ask questions, hold space, and be curious versus a mentor, which is like, I actually need advice. And in order to get advice, I need you to have the lived experience that I don't have. So I think that's how I think about the distinction.

Tommy: Jules is giving a lot of advice.

Peter: Yeah, so that's a mentor. He's giving you, hey, based on my life, this is what I would do. But do you think as a coach it's not about advice?

Josh: I think Do you think that the mentor thing, we can fall into it if you're requiring an external force?

Peter: I think you can hide in this for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Because I think that there is a distinction between, like, I feel like I'm a life learner. I love learning stuff. And that can come from a person, that could come from a book, it could come from a podcast. Whereas I think there are some people who fall into the narrative of what it is to have a mentor.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: And so they get obsessed with the geography and the sitting down and talking and giving time.

Peter: Or the risk of like, I'm not successful because I don't have a mentor. So, like, it's almost a cop-out in a way. It's like, oh, I need to get a mentor, then I'll put in the work. And it's like, I think you're hiding in that maybe. Like, do you need to formalise a relationship in order to then have a mentor? I don't think so. Do you need to have a mentor in order to be successful? Probably not. Not necessarily. It's helpful, can help you learn and grow, but it's not like a requirement and it's not It's not an alternative to putting in the work.

Tommy: What about a coach? What's the view there? Does everybody need a coach?

Peter: No. Well, I think everyone could benefit from a coach, but not everyone needs a coach. So, for me, a coach is all about holding someone accountable, asking questions, holding space, and as I mentioned, being curious. And so, you can get that formally, which is sort of some of the work I do, or you could get that through— Like I would say JJ and I kind of coach each other when we go on our walks because we ask questions of one another.

Josh: Yeah, I love it. I bring a whiteboard. Yeah. I am a paid mentor. I do want to know. No, I want to know what's the difference between— You've done the whole psychology thing. The difference between going to a psychologist and going to a coach.

Peter: I think a psychologist is probably— The distinction I've seen is they're perhaps a little bit more on the mentor side in that they're leaning on their, not necessarily their lived experience, but they're leaning on the knowledge that they've attained through qualifications and understanding of how to navigate trauma. Yeah, a coach doesn't really necessarily have expertise in how to navigate trauma or personal relationships.

Tommy: That's extra, you're gonna pay me.

Josh: I think, yeah, I think that's your psych. You used a whiteboard.

Peter: Yeah, I love it.

Tommy: Did you get around that?

Peter: I was a little sceptical at first. I told JJ, I was like, I'm gonna go see a therapist, everyone keeps telling me I need to do it, and You talked about it, TJ, about your Meltdown Perspectives, and I think Ryan Shelton talked about it and I was like, all right, I think I'm going to do this. And I went in there and I met her in the reception. I was like, I don't know about this already. And then she opens the door and there's a whiteboard sitting in between the two chairs. And I love a whiteboard. And I just looked at her and went, I think you and I are going to get along just fine.

Tommy: Do you think she knew or was that just her process? That's her process. That's good.

Josh: She didn't Google him and go, I think Pete likes whiteboards.

Tommy: So while we talk, did she know anything about you before you started?

Josh: I think it's pretty standard.

Peter: Do you think they Google you?

Josh: I guess.

Tommy: No way. No way. But you do it like you would have signed a form at the start.

Josh: Just yeah.

Tommy: What you do, what you're up to, like an induction form.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah. Google me.

Peter: So she, so she, yeah, yeah. She has a whiteboard while we're talking.

Josh: Your sortologist saying, now is everything okay? I noticed you're not on Facebook or Instagram.

Tommy: Fuck, they would think that.

Josh: No, so I'm curious about this. So, the— What are you actually writing on a whiteboard when you're going to a therapist?

Peter: So, I'm not writing. She's doing the writing while we're talking and she's mapping out themes and like she maps out the people. So, she draws a little box with me, you know, that box represents Pete and then she'll draw a box to represent my family when I start talking about my family or my girlfriend when I'm talking about my girlfriend or my ex when I'm talking about my ex. And then she draws like dotted lines between the 3 or the 4 and then like how they all connect and what are the commonalities and the storeys you're telling yourself.

Josh: Do you take a photo at the end?

Peter: Yeah, yeah, I love it.

Josh: Is it— is that like a— do you ask?

Peter: You don't have to. I'm just like, hey, can you mind if I take a photo? Of course. Bang, take a photo.

Josh: Because you were using, um, you tried to set up Notion the other day.

Peter: Yeah, I'm into it. I've moved from a bunch of stuff from Google Docs into Notion. So fast.

Josh: You need to give, um, Biscuit a go.

Peter: Okay, is there another one? You told me to get on Notion.

Josh: Notion is great, um, but TJ taught me about Biscuit, which integrates another one.

Tommy: Can we get this clean? Just because this is—

Josh: this is a big— this is big for TJ.

Tommy: It's a tech piece of advice that JJ's taken on board with no pushback. This is unbelievable.

Josh: You'd never do it. Like, the idea— I don't think you've ever in the, um, in the 3 years that we've worked together, I don't think you've ever said to me like, oh, I was thinking on the way. Like, you know, like, I don't feel that you bring stuff out, like, yeah, stuff of that you've spoken about.

Tommy: I mean, the one thing where I knew I— this guy that's— this guy's— I can't remember his name. Luke somebody, someone Darcy.

Josh: He, um, the most complicated Airtable.

Tommy: No. Yeah, but he's got— he's called the most connected guy in the world.

Peter: Is that his title?

Tommy: Connected, meaning technology. He's got like, he's the old Google Glass guy. He's got all these fucking whoop, swoop, hoop on his arms and it's all bullshit. But he's a version of— Josh could become him. There's still time. Josh could become him.

Josh: And I saw him using Biscuit and I was like, mate, how do you explain Biscuit?

Tommy: Biscuit. So, you know, when you're in Chrome or Mozilla or, you know, whatever it be and you've got tabs open or you go bookmarks. Like all the things I use in a day. Nightmare. Because when you do have 20 tabs open, I've seen Jess, our producer's computer, tab queen. Tab queen. This is a, it's basically like an interface that allows you to sort your tabs, but they're on the left-hand side. So it almost looks like Notion or it looks like a thing where you have on the left side all of the quick buttons that take you to a specific spreadsheet at a specific point. So I have my finance section, I've got my daily section where shit I want to be in, sales section, you know, and so you get a bunch of that where you can, you're in one spreadsheet, but rather than going back and forth in the sheet at the bottom on the left-hand side, it's got the tab. So it's like quick keys, but it's, it's a game changer.

Josh: I showed it to Bree last night.

Tommy: Do you like it?

Josh: She said that it seemed like an unnecessary tool. It was just a browser. What would you—

Tommy: Yeah, but then I think the challenge is the workflow of being the tab queen. It's like—

Peter: Sounds efficient. It's quite like efficiencies. It sounds like it's creating efficiencies.

Tommy: Well, stuff doesn't stick a lot. Like when you find a piece of tech.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: And this is just like, oh my God, why the fuck haven't I been using this? Like in a, in a Chrome thing with 30. I was like, I've run out of space for my bookmarks.

Josh: So the problem—

Peter: I think you should send this to Biscuit, by the way. This is a good, like, testimonial.

Tommy: Yeah, they don't even charge. Really ridiculous.

Josh: What's their business model?

Tommy: That's what I want to know.

Josh: They're selling your data.

Tommy: I hope not. I don't know. They literally, you can't even create an account, which means like, that's one thing, issue about is that I can't transition from my computer upstairs where my biscuit is down. So I can come down and get a biscuit from the jar, but on my laptop I need to create, I need to create my biscuit on the laptop too.

D: It's a cute icon.

Tommy: It's a biscuit. Yeah, it's a real, it's a shortbread biscuit almost.

Peter: Great name.

Tommy: But worth looking at.

Josh: And so, um, so you were using— what were you putting in Notion?

Peter: I've got things like, you know, books I want to read, books I have read. I've got, you know, like, uh, Airbnbs that I've looked at and want to stay in one day, little adventures that I want to do.

Josh: You're getting into all the emojis.

Peter: I love the emojis. I'm a big emoji guy. I think you probably already knew that, but not really. Okay, so I'm an emoji guy. There you go. So trying to— have you got the breaking— have you got the breaking?

Tommy: What's your go-to emoji? Can you just pull out your phone and And tell me what you—

Josh: I just, I've just cut to the, um, I went to nearly cut to the exclusive.

Tommy: Can you tell me what your—

Peter: I don't know, my phone's out of reach, but I would say my most used would be the, the joy emoji, which is the guy with the crying eyes. Yeah. And the love heart eyes. I quite like the love heart eyes. Yeah, as an emoji. Yeah, so I'm a big emoji. That's what the breaking is.

Tommy: Wouldn't have picked that.

Josh: Um, I didn't— I really, I feel like I don't get many emojis from you.

Peter: Yeah, I think so. I adapt based on knowing the other person, and I feel like you're not a big emoji guy, so I've like dialled it back so I don't offend you.

Josh: There's—

Tommy: Yeah, no, I love Josh then, a big dot dot dot guy.

Josh: Yeah, what am I?

Tommy: Josh is a big passive guy. He's the big—

Peter: He's an exclamation mark guy, and he's a hey homie kind of guy. He loves it.

Josh: Hey homie, hey homie.

Peter: He loves the word homie. Yeah, so I observe how other people communicate.

Josh: Do you like it?

Peter: Yeah, I don't mind homie.

Tommy: Yeah. Babe.

Peter: Depending who it's coming from.

Tommy: All right, babe.

Peter: Actually, I'm okay with it. You can call me babe too. Thanks, babe.

Tommy: Yeah, babe's good. I mean, is it a brand value, your homie thing, Josh?

Peter: Or, uh, hey homie with an exclamation mark. That's it.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, I think I use it a lot. I used to say hombre.

Peter: Oh yeah, hombre. You're also a big—

Tommy: that was big on Taco Tuesday.

Peter: You're a big FaceTimer. That's probably your brand value.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter: Not necessarily an emoji, it's a FaceTime.

Tommy: Yeah, I'm a biscuit guy.

Peter: You're a biscuit guy.

Tommy: Now, what's my brain value?

Josh: So, the other thing I think I am— No, I send messages, I think, quite like, um, I do multiple messages.

Peter: I do that too. I like that.

Josh: So, I would prefer to like get 6 notifications to you quickly.

Tommy: I reckon you're a long email guy too.

Josh: Oh no, you know that's not true. It's a big contentious issue in the workplace.

Tommy: Can I get Jess to sit in the hot seat?

Josh: Yeah, you can.

Tommy: I've never let anyone sit in this seat. Jess, can you come on the Here we go. So, um, I'm gonna hit the couch.

Josh: This is in regards to our, um, just talk about this.

Tommy: This is good to coach the situation.

Peter: It's just absurd.

Josh: And Jess is getting TJ's lighting as well, so this is, this is really lucky. Here we go. TJ just wants to relax. He's disengaged his core on the couch.

Peter: Core is disengaged.

Josh: Um, oh, g'day, Jess.

Peter: There she is.

Josh: She's putting her, she's putting her headphones on. Here we go. It's about your timing. Hello.

Peter: Hey, Jess.

D: Oh, no, the lighting's still not great, is it?

Josh: No, it's great. You look great.

D: It's a little bit better.

Josh: So, we're talking about long emails. I feel like you send long emails.

Peter: Is this the first time he's told you this?

Josh: No, I said it this morning and you got upset with me, potentially.

D: Would you consider that a blow-up?

Josh: Well, no, no, that wasn't a blow-up. That's, I mean, it's the early day stage. Can you just watch your— Make sure you're centred in the screen.

Peter: Would you go a little bit— Jess, did it feel like a blow-up for you?

D: I mean, I felt attacked because—

Josh: Attacked is a strong word.

D: I know, because I have a thing against long emails. And so, it came out of left field to be honest.

Josh: But so, my thing is that I was saying, I actually said this to you. I'm like, I've been getting into a bit of evening work.

Peter: Yeah, yeah, you did.

Josh: And one of the things with the evening work is going through Jess's emails, like when she sends— when you send me an email, there's a lot of information to put in. And so what I was sort of saying is it's like, I think that's great client-side, giving them heaps of context. What are the bits that we could cut?

Peter: What's the push? Is it the length of the scrolling you have to do? Is it the thought of a paragraph? It's a wall of text.

Josh: Well, it's not— it's not knowing what to focus on.

D: But if you like read it, it goes in chronological order.

Josh: And that's the thing, like I've—

Peter: Is it a formatting thing? Like, is it more just like Jess uses dot points?

D: No, no. You don't.

Peter: How long is too long?

D: I'm going to show you my emails after this.

Peter: How long is too long?

Josh: They're pretty long. I think that they—

Peter: How long?

Josh: So, they're dot points, but each dot point is a paragraph. Would you say that or no? Okay.

D: I also just want to point this out that I've literally probably only sent, what, 5 emails that you've been privy to.

Josh: It's been privy to what's going on.

D: Client emails, like it's sorting out different things. Like it's not like I'm going to Tommy or to JJ on a simple menial task in here. It's like they're proper client emails. Yeah, you have to detail this stuff.

Peter: Who's it for? Yeah, she's tailoring her message based on who it's for.

Josh: I think that's smart. Actually, do you know what would be fun? I'll read you the first email I ever sent to Pete. This was a cold— I was saying I don't do cold emails. Brand value.

Peter: This is great. I was— I remember I was in New York and I received this email from a stranger called Josh Jansen.

Josh: Are you ready? Oh, hang on. I don't have your— I, you know, it's from Square. It was a Squarespace. He went through my website, through his form. So this is obnoxious. The form, it's not as simple. Do you remember what you ask on your form?

Peter: No, this was—

Josh: it's not just an old iteration. Contact, a contact form.

Peter: It would have been an old iteration.

Josh: It says name, email address, what are you currently working on?

Peter: Yeah, I'm curious, what are you working on? Is that obnoxious?

Josh: I mean, it's slightly being like, only contact me if you're a mover and shaker.

Peter: Yeah, you know, it's changed since.

Josh: Okay, what do you say now? Employment?

Peter: I'm gonna go look at it as soon as this is over.

Josh: Are you on JobKeeper? Um, so here we go. Josh Janson, josh@joshjanson.com. What are you currently working on? I haven't read this, so this could be embarrassing. Hey Peter, I just discovered you through— so this was, um, the 18th of May 2018. Wow, we've had 2 years of friendship.

Peter: Yeah, happy to interview you.

Josh: I just discovered you through Seth's Alt MBA live stream. Awesome seeing a fellow Melburnian doing cool shit. My mate Tommy and I have a podcast, The Daily Talk Show. We're up to episode 89. I see on your About section that you love listening to podcasts and that you're even working on one on your own. Sorry, working on your own one. If there's any help you need from a tech or content point of view, please let me know. I have a background in content creation in radio, technology, and now through my video production company, Full Stack Films.

Peter: Pretty long email.

Josh: Would love to know. And this was in the form. We'd love to have you on our podcast. It'd be this.

Peter: Look at this.

Josh: Look how short it is compared to the emails that you send. Look like it sounds.

Tommy: It's—

Josh: yeah, we need to, we need to blur out an email that you send, but show the the length. I feel like there's almost a bit of a, um, and so that's basically the end. Thanks for your time, mate. Josh, you were fired up. You sent in, you actually had a, uh, what did I reply? You had a, an interesting signature at the end. Now the image is no longer available. Um, thanks for reaching out, man.

Peter: All right, 2 years ago, this was 2 years ago. I've come a long way.

Josh: Okay, I have to say straight out, and these are dot points, I fucking love your podcast. Just, just listen to those two eps and I'm diving into a couple of others too. The topics and conversations you guys have is like stepping into my own thoughts. Number two, I'm also digging your vlogs, mate. Production quality is primo and the mix of humour and quality content is bang on.

Peter: It's pretty good feedback.

Josh: It's a really nice email.

Peter: Thanks, mate.

Josh: And so that's why we're friends.

Peter: I'm happy with that.

D: Okay, so the issue and the difference with that email is that you were making statements. In your dot points, so they can be tight.

Josh: And so you're doing more sort of like giving people—

D: giving context or action points, more so like the things that need to be actioned or have a response to.

Peter: Is there a format you'd prefer, JJ? Like a, like a voicemail?

Josh: No, I think— do you think it needs to— I think it needs to come from you, Jess. Like, what do you think? Where is my pushback relevant versus when do you think I just need to suck it up and write the— read the emails? Or do you think I should always just read the emails?

D: Yeah, I think so. We're working together. It might be good to have you across everything.

Josh: Maybe like, just so what I was doing, I was saying like last night I sent Jess a long email.

Peter: Oh, so you replied with a long email.

Josh: Yeah.

D: And so, I thought his email was long.

Josh: And so, what I did was I put a bold— I put a lot of tension in this room. So, I put some bold text. I was like, basically the main point is this, this, this, this.

Peter: The TL;DR. Yeah. You should do a TL;DR.

Tommy: TL;DR.

D: I think TL;DRs could be a standard.

Josh: Standard thing.

Peter: You could do that at the top of the email. TL;DR.

Josh: But then you got upset because I said that I thought potentially you were the person in school that would copy and paste slabs of text on a PowerPoint and then read it out. And you pride yourself on having really good top-line slides. Yeah.

Peter: You've come in with a couple of pretty personal attacks.

Josh: So, maybe that, maybe it was, maybe I was too aggressive. Yeah. But I think it was just the— Feels like a solid realisation. Yeah. And so, I'm sorry about that.

D: I just thought it was funny that he literally had to summarise what he just outlined. And I'm okay with reading an email, but then he bolded it as well. But it was in a weird position in the email as well because you dot pointed. Yeah. But without dot points, which I don't like.

Josh: Well, it was just like I sent a slab of text because I'm like, you know what? I'm responding the way. Like, it's like when you're playing basketball, you're only as good as the opponent. So I was just responding like, look, here are all these ideas. It's— I think part of it is it's the creative process. I actually asked Bree, I said, can you read this? Does this make sense? And she asked me a question about it. So I blew up at her because I'm like, if you don't— how do you not understand this? It's a very basic thing that I'm saying, but I don't know what the deal— like, what should we be slacking more. I think internally, let's slack.

D: And then for client emails, I'll try and be a little bit—

Josh: I actually think that's good. I think that the text is good, but I just think that there could be a way for us to internally— like, I do know that Tony Robbins— not saying I'm Tony Robbins, but Tony Robbins records audio messages.

D: Oh yeah, yeah, no, I couldn't do that. I don't like that because you don't have it in writing and then you can't go back to it.

Josh: Yeah, it's very— it's hard to like save.

Peter: Jen and I do that to each other. I think there's, there's something in getting clear in how each of you likes to be communicated to because it doesn't have to be the same.

Josh: I'm always fired up when I see the emails to clients that Jess has sent. Like, I'm like, fuck it, like, how, how like professional. Okay, so we like it, but, but then I I'm not necessarily reading them to the— as much as what probably everyone else is. Yeah. And so, I think that there's probably a mechanism of like long emails and then dot points somewhere.

Peter: So, what are each of you going to commit to moving forward?

D: Well— Maybe I need to do a short summary for you after each email.

Josh: A short summary would be— Soundbite or something. Well, so the thing is, I just want to see if I'm like completely gaslighting you. Or if this is reality. Hang on, I'm just typing in your name. I just want to see like how long these emails are, whether I— Do you think you do long emails?

D: But I, I don't know.

Josh: I feel like there was even one like the Daily Talk Show, like we were doing sort of a, um, a next steps. This was like, oh, okay, questionnaire. Oh yeah, the questionnaire. Is that from me? Hang on, let me just— I know this is quite boring. Yeah, so there is like, there is a lot of There's just like a lot of— Yeah. There's a lot going on. But no, I agree. I think that I just need to get better. I think maybe I need to use my laptop. It looks a lot on a phone. Yeah. So, maybe I need sort of the big screen to be able to see all the text.

D: And it also could be because I'm not in the office as much that I just brain dump everything and then—

Josh: Yeah. I actually— So, one thing that I did do was I downloaded an app that reads things to me.

D: Oh, this is another issue I have here. What is it? What is it? All of the tech that you had to bring me across.

Josh: It's— Well, it's great. I have a Google spreadsheet.

D: No, I have it. And I was thinking then, I was like, I can't have another tab open on my computer.

Josh: Well, this is perfect. This will replace all those tabs. No. But the— I like my system. And so, there is something in that. I was doing that for a bit, which is just when you send an email, there's a software that I was using called— I'll tell you what it's called because it's actually really good. I want to get back into it. It's in my listening section on my app. Here we go. Sorry for the delay. Maybe I got rid of it. It's riveting audio. Yeah, this is a nightmare. Yeah, anyway, there's an app that will basically play the text, but Jess, thank you.

D: No, that's okay. Thank you.

Tommy: I actually don't even know if we got to the point.

Peter: I feel like we got a couple of takeaways. Jess is going to potentially be mindful of doing a TL;DR or a summary for you, and you're going to read emails on your laptop and maybe just cut her some slack.

Josh: I just— no, but I think like the thing is Jess is way more professional than all of us.

Peter: Um, so maybe it's a healthy tension for you to get used to.

Josh: Yeah, I think the other thing too is, uh, coming from— Jess has got extensive experience in PR and there's a lot of great stuff to come out of PR, but also I think like PR is a brand value there's a lot going on sometimes. All right.

Tommy: So if you think about a press release, it's like the same room, the same experience, but everyone's having the different response. Well, how do you feel about it? Never thought that her emails are too long. Wow. Ever. I thought they're detailed as in like efficient. I'm like, wow, impressive. And I understand the only thing I relate—

Josh: Do you need to be impressed by an email?

Tommy: It's not what I'm going for. I'm just saying it was response. What I do realise across every email, Jess or anybody, is the visceral response you get when you have to do work. And I think that's what you're fucking experiencing, because I'm on Jess's side where they're not too long, they're formatted well. It's like, I'm a gronk, you should see my shit. It's like, she's professional and hitting it. Yeah, I think if you had a boss, they'd tell you to shut the fuck up in very polite ways and say, read your fucking emails or you're out. That's like, it's a bit different.

Josh: Yeah, but this is the thing, but surely Yeah, no lunch break. I don't have a lunch break. I feel like there could be. I think there's a nice, like, if we want to build a culture.

Tommy: But what you're literally saying is, Jess, I need you to work out how you can communicate to me as in to you. That's no, that's exactly what's happening. Because otherwise it's like, it's fine, I'm willing to work to Jess's way because she's more professional than I am and, and has a lot more knowledge. You want it given to you in a different way.

Josh: That's what you want.

Tommy: Why is it like part of it is learning communication between different people? It's like, keep doing what you do. Maybe part of it is scale.

Josh: Maybe what I'm thinking about is like Jess's time as we, you know, like if we've got, say, 5 or 6 projects going, it's easy. But then potentially when it reaches a certain scale, if she's doing— This is the key.

Tommy: 700 to 800 words per email. Lodging 2 bigger tax returns. This is that.

Josh: It's like when I was a kid, I was worried about a big tax bill.

Tommy: But it's the preempting of scale, which there's two versions. There's, yes, shit, we need processes for when there is shitloads going on. But then there's also like the pain now of no process. There's still a pain at scale regardless of process. There will be like, fuck, the pain's just different. I think that Jess is good at taking notes, and then I think that what happens is those notes become emails if they need to be, based on we need notes from the meeting.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. No, the thing is, if I had to pick one, 97 does no email. This is where I would prefer— I'd prefer Jess. I had like— I'm so— the thing is, when I get the email, easy out when Seb isn't in the room.

Peter: Just kicking him while he's in Blackout.

Tommy: Just kicking him while he's not out, but he's out He's having a good time.

Peter: He's having a great time. Yeah.

Josh: But to be seriously, I'd much prefer— I think Jess is doing a great job and I actually don't want her to change. I actually, I think I agree. I think I need a change. And so there's— I'd want to get to a point where I don't have an emotional, physical response every time I get an email from Jess.

Tommy: But that's a learned skill. 'Cause when you get a long email from a client, I know the feeling. I'm like, oh no, what's happening?

Peter: From anyone, you're like, oh, okay, I need to be in the right head frame. But that shouldn't be the response to any long email.

Tommy: But what you're saying is that is the learned skill you need, is less, less entering into it at an emotional level and actually processing it. It's easy to say, hard to do. I feel like I need to—

Josh: it'd be good for us to get a— how do you feel about us getting a printer?

Tommy: Absolutely not. I just fucking binned a $450 printer. Why'd you do that? I asked everyone, can I sell this, Seb? Nah, won't be able.

Josh: I think it was— leave it out front too much.

Tommy: What'd you do? What do you need a printer for? You're the tech guy, so you want all these tech things, but then you want a fucking printer? I think it would be good to have a printer.

Josh: For what? To be able to print out those emails and then just get a pen and go through them.

Tommy: All right, Tim Jackett, that's what my dad does. There's a guy off an email, fucking leave it to the computer and highlight on the—

Peter: yeah, in Word. I did an internship in the Victorian government and there was a guy that printed off every email and would file it.

Josh: Oh yeah, my MFV Brigade. Yeah, it's the same.

Tommy: Don't be the boss, fucking read your email.

Peter: I think you're overcomplicating it. Wouldn't it be absolutely—

Josh: how cool would it be?

Peter: Coach him out of this whole— oh, he already did. He coached himself out of it. But did he?

Josh: Do you know what would be really fun? It's actually— this would be a fun app. It's like a fax. You get an email, you get an email, it gets printed too. So you go to your inbox and your inbox is just whatever's printed out of the printer.

Tommy: I'm going to send this account.

Josh: But, um, no, the thing is, like, I don't want to sound hypercritical.

Peter: Took a turn because— how do you—

Josh: do you think I'm being— I had to—

Tommy: I had to defend Jess. I felt like she needed to sort of go hard. Did I go hard enough?

Josh: Did I do a good job on me?

Tommy: Yeah, I had to just— because the funny thing is, I know you so well from dealing with you every day And I know where you're being you or you're being a fucking just silly version of you as a child.

Josh: And it's like, that's where the pushback. That's where I said, like I said to Jess, like, I think I said, you know, I push you, push back, but I push back. Like, the thing is, I'm going to tell you how I'm feeling. And if your emails make me sad, I'll tell you. And then you tell me if I'm being silly. Is that a senior management?

Tommy: Is that what senior management just driven by emotion. Like, have you worked in big business? You have? Yeah. What happens if a senior manager does that? Someone with a—

Josh: wouldn't they have an EA or something? They would. Does email— do you ever get that feeling?

Peter: I think that if I see a slab of text, sometimes they're not that fucking long. Sometimes I'm like, I need it. Not at all. They're not at all. I haven't seen one of these emails. I'm not saying—

Josh: I think that— but I think like, it's normally reading a great opera. The thing is It happens from good operators. I think Taver from RBK Advisory. Shout out.

Tommy: Have you read some of the long shit he sends? Because it has to.

Josh: Well, the thing is, and that's what's good, like you'll go through all of them, but I look at them like they are so good, but I don't even know how to—

Tommy: But he doesn't go through them.

Josh: But it is a lot to take in.

Tommy: Well, because you read one from our real estate agent, which is talking about some shit we need to be across. And you read the first line and summarised and texted me. I was convinced you read it based on your text message and then I had to dissect it and call the real estate agent. Well, there's a light there.

Josh: There definitely is a little bit of— and I understand that that could come across as not showing enough respect. And so it's hard when you go like—

Tommy: and this is— we're not in a tiff, but you love like the statements like inbox zero and like sorting and filing. And it's all— it seems for show when it's actually around email and you got to fucking read it and you get a business development.

Josh: Do you want to be an email guy though? Absolutely not.

Tommy: But I also see it as a non-negotiable. Yeah, you got to do it like it's a part of business. It's, it is comms, it's talking on the phone. It's the— maybe I'll go the other way.

Josh: Maybe, maybe I will.

Peter: Maybe talking on the phone. Yeah, I've lent into that. You're doing a lot. I'm proud of you. Yeah, thanks. I sort of coached you by bullying you.

Tommy: You did.

Peter: It's a bit of that.

Josh: What sort of calls are you having?

Peter: Trace and I will speak a couple times. I spoke to her earlier today.

Tommy: And look out, guys, that's his girlfriend. Oh yeah, that's the last thing.

Josh: Who else are you, um, just talking to?

Tommy: Your girlfriend?

Peter: Oh yeah, that's big. I've spoken to you a few times on the phone, JJ.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, I think I call you though. Yeah, I wonder what's happening. But I answered.

Peter: I didn't, I didn't not answer and then go, sorry, JJ, I'm busy.

Josh: I completely— what's the other way?

Tommy: The other way is knowing. I'm just trying to dig us out.

Josh: So the thing is, yeah. All I'm going to say is I'm 100% up for playing the game. I think that it's worthwhile. I think that the email stuff is very good. I think that is communication.

Tommy: Yeah, we just got it. When you got Seb's around, we need it. Like, you can't be telling him to do 30 emails a day if you're not willing to read your email based on being too long. That's like, I think we need to— I've never thought about that.

Peter: Never ask someone to do something that you're not willing to do yourself. Really?

Josh: It's not to say that don't That's all I ever do. Isn't that the point? I thought that was the point of having a team. You share the shit.

Peter: Yeah, but you, you share the things you've done at some point.

Tommy: One of the best person on email, Seth Godin.

Josh: Yeah, he writes back.

Tommy: He's good, but he reads as well.

Josh: No, actually it would be good because I think I've spoken about this before. When I see an email, I start to skim because I don't want it to enter my soul. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he doesn't want to know. Like, you don't want to be like, I'm like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it.

Tommy: It's fine.

Josh: Fine. But I think that that is something I would like to get better at. Do you need a time box when you read email?

Peter: Is it like, like, were you in a certain headspace when this email came through?

Josh: Like after a wine? Yeah, I'm good because I just like— it gets very easy to write back.

Tommy: I do too. Yeah, every single day just to do emails.

Josh: You could do like an 8 PM one wine or email if you want.

Peter: But I think there's the recognition— look, there's healthier versions. Like headspace at different times in the day. If you recognise that you need to be in a certain headspace to process something.

Josh: I could actually become an email.

Tommy: I think that it's the romanticism, which I, I, as soon as it comes up, I see it as a warning sign. Right time of day, like when I'm going to be creative, it needs to land here. It's like, and I know I've said the stars aligning for you stuff, Josh.

Josh: It's got to be perfect temperature. And so what you're—

Tommy: so when you— so the thing, let's just deconstruct wine and emails. Great combo. They seem great when you're a bit sort of feeling a bit fruity, but fruity, it's because then you're like— so what happens, the fucked up bit is you've ingested a chemical that has given you a visceral response. I can only write back to email when I'm high, and you're feeling good about it. It's, it's a dangerous combo.

Josh: I think that I, I want to go— I want to actually go the other way. I want to be really good because the other thing too is I think it comes down to procrastination. I reckon all of this is procrastination for me because it's saying—

Tommy: You definitely have in the last sort of week. But I actually know you. I'm like, are you good? Like, I just— because I don't push too hard when I know— because, mate, you've smashed email before. You've been on top of it. Business development.

Josh: I batch things. You wrote me that pretty long email.

Peter: Which email?

Josh: Oh, the one we just read out.

Tommy: You're not a guy that doesn't do anything. You're a guy that fucking can be a powerhouse if you want to. And so it's just about How do you get to a place where regardless of mood or any, anything, it's like a standard?

Josh: And, and if people are listening, Jess is great. I don't like— I think that people would listen and be like, oh, Josh is a fucking— well, mate, we don't know by this point.

Peter: Yeah, this point, if they last through that. Yeah, true, they lasted through that debacle. Nah, that's good.

Josh: No, I'm supportive of everyone. I think everyone's doing a great job. We're all doing our best. Everyone's doing their best.

Tommy: You know, we do year-end reviews on the show.

Josh: So how long until we start doing 360 reviews? On the show? No, yeah, on the show would be fun. That would be outrageous.

Tommy: I've never been a part of anything like a 360 review or a review internally. What do you— So you get, um— I want to hear from Pete.

Josh: Okay, have you ever done a 360?

Tommy: I've done anything of that nature.

Peter: Yeah, I've done that in the corporate world. They do it. That they send out the survey and they say it's anonymous. But what's tricky is when you're in a team of like 4 people or 3 people and you're asked to review the manager, it becomes pretty obvious whose responses are whose. So I've done them. You, you see it. We used to get emails saying, you've had contact with the following people in the business, so can you answer these questions about them? And they'll receive an anonymized report about basically giving them feedback.

Tommy: So you get it personally.

Peter: And I've seen it, like, people like get torn apart and like have very, very visceral reactions to it. And like, I can't believe someone said this about me. I can't believe, you know, I'm not showing up. Yeah, it's fucking crazy, isn't it? Yeah, you're like, oh, that was me that said that. So yeah, it's pretty full on.

Josh: Pretty full on. I wonder how beneficial it is. Well, the thing is Kevin Rose, who founded Dig, He, he's been a guy that's, I think, like a little bit like me in regards to very like fleeting, like just from an external perspective, he sort of has that shiny object syndrome where he goes over to a bunch of things. But I think that he can sometimes drop the ball in regards to communicating what I've seen externally. Anyway, he talked on a podcast about doing the 360 stuff, but it was a coach. He wasn't working for any company at the time. He's an investor. At True Ventures, I think. But anyway, he, um, got a bunch of people he knew, just friends and stuff, to all be interviewed by this person who was doing— I guess it's like 180. It's like just feedback on him. I guess it's a cool edit. He got absolutely slammed. Yeah, it was like a real eye-opener.

Peter: Yeah, I think there's like— there's a certain level of trust that one needs to be able to process feedback in an effective way. So if you don't like your manager then that's probably going to come through in the feedback and it's probably not going to be well received. I think if you have a relationship that is built on trust, I think in many ways that you shouldn't get surprises. You should probably receive feedback and be like, ah, yeah, I had a feeling, I knew that was kind of a blind spot of mine and now it's been called out. I don't feel great about it, but there's no surprises. Like, I think in, in performance reviews, for example, which most companies do every 6 or 12 months, You shouldn't really like have this moment of a manager telling you something and you're like, where the hell did that come from? It should be that you're talking every day or every week giving feedback to one another. So when it comes to formalising it, you're like, oh yeah, this is just a build on the things that we've been talking about.

Josh: Yeah, I think, yeah, there's definitely something in doing things more regularly. Totally. So then there's no surprise at the end rather than doing—

Peter: Yeah, they call them pulse cheques quickly on the pulse check.

Josh: So you've got a Whoop?

Peter: I do, yeah.

Josh: Have you seen that they're now using Whoops to determine whether you have COVID? Yeah, yeah, they're Updated the software.

Peter: They track your respiratory rate, and if you get a significant spike, I believe, or a drop maybe in your respiratory rate, it could be a symptom that you're developing COVID.

Josh: Seb's got Corona this week. Also, there's even, um, the NBA are using the, um, I think one of the teams is using the Oura ring. Oh yeah, as a way of determining. So it's like, yeah, all those things you mentioned.

Peter: I think the respiratory rate in particular is the one they're tracking. So what does respiratory rate mean? I would have to double-check, but it's like the amount of breathing per minute, the amount of breaths per minute, I think is what it is. Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: So it's not your heart rate, respiratory rate.

Peter: So I think mine's flow of air. If it's between 12 and 18-ish, I think is like standard. I read it about it on the Whoop website, and it's like if you go beyond that, then that could be a sign.

Tommy: So going beyond that, like when I've had bad asthma, shallow breathing, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: I would like to, I would like to get a Whoop for that reason. What do you, what do you pay?

Peter: I pay, you pay a monthly subscription fee, so it's free, the hardware is free, and then you pay like software as a service for it. I think $15, $20 a month or something.

Josh: That works out to be what, about $200 a year?

Peter: Pretty reasonable, yeah. And you can pay like, I paid 6 months upfront, so you can just kind of pay it upfront.

Tommy: Is there a login, login for like an online portal where you're seeing all stuff?

Peter: Yeah, there's an app that you fire up and it gives you desktop water. And yeah, it's got desktop. You can put it onto your biscuit. Totally.

Tommy: You can get it on Topline Daily, cheque it out every day.

Josh: The charging—

Peter: yeah, so there's a case that you just like slide on top so you don't have to take it off, so you still get all of the—

Josh: so you charge a battery, you have a battery, and then you put the battery on and it charges it.

Peter: Pretty cool.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you wear it when you sleep? Yeah. How's your sleep been?

Peter: Great. Yeah, I've got—

Josh: notice a difference, uh, since getting a girlfriend in regards to, to sleep?

Peter: Uh, probably a bit more relaxed and calm and happy, I guess. So like you lower heart rate, which means you're also getting deeper sleep. So I would say yes in that sense. Also, you know, you're staying— especially with isolation and everything, it's not like you're going out and partying and drinking, which very much improves your sleep, which improves all of your data and your health metrics that you get back feedback on. All right. Anyway, whoop.

Josh: A lot of things to fix. Biscuit, biscuit, biscuit, whoop, and emails.

Peter: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Jess, team member of the month, doing a great job.

Josh: We should start doing that. Team member of the month.

Tommy: Yeah, win yourself a little JB High Five voucher.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Spin the wheel.

Tommy: You get a car park.

Josh: Oh yeah, priority spot in the car park. Yeah. I mean, Jess famously, I remember one of the first days I ever met Jess, and I went into the garage. So fucking smells like shit in the garage. And then I was like, oh hey, hey Jess. And then I didn't connect all the things, and it turns out that she'd been driving in the country just through manure and she'd basically brought it into the office. Oh wow. Yeah.

Tommy: Um, have you had much, um, experience, Jess, in reputation management? Crisis comms? Because Josh is fucking painting the floor with you. It's disgusting, really.

Peter: Anything else you want to say?

Tommy: Send her a fucking long email apologizing, please.

Peter: Any more dirty laundry to air, JJ? It's not her shit.

Josh: She can't help it. But it's a, it's an observation. Jess and I were driving before.

Tommy: This is not a storey about Jess. We were just together in the car and we, I looked over and I saw a woman bending over. I was like, oh my God, Jess, look. And we got a bit closer. She stood up, pulled her pants back up, bent back over, done a shat on the concrete. No way. And we saw it. And Jess said, uh, butter chicken. Where was this? What does butter chicken mean? That's what it looked like. It looked like—

Peter: Oh, that's outrageous.

Tommy: My God, we live in a weird world.

Josh: Was it on Victoria Street? Yes. Okay.

Tommy: Lennox, Victoria. Sorry if that was sickening, but it was fucking— whatever you're feeling, did you try it? 20 times worth seeing it.

Peter: Moving to Elwood is the greatest decision I made. I do not miss any of it.

Tommy: Oh, he's a toffee motherfucker, isn't he?

Peter: Bayside. Come down Bayside, boys.

Tommy: Man, I grew up Yeah, there's a lot going on.

Josh: All right, it's a daily talk show. Thank you, Pete, for coming on the podcast. The Long and the Short of It is his podcast. Great one. It's got an episode on, um, what is it, the future? Future you? Future self? The future self. Anyway, cheque it out. Uh, it's a daily talk show. See you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one. See you guys.