Craig Harper On Happiness & Expectations

Craig: The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 564.

Josh: Welcome back to the studio, Craig Harper.

Tommy: Welcome, 7th time, 2020.

Craig: Really? 7 times?

Josh: 7 times.

Craig: Can't believe— who keeps those records? Is that you, Mr. 97?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, he's got your address. He's got everything.

Craig: Wow. I'm honoured and flattered to be back.

Josh: So this is coming out on Jan 1st. It's a new year, 2020. What a year.

Craig: Oh, what a year. Giddy up, buttercup. There must be some kind of numerology symbolism with 2020. There must be something special about— I don't know, it seems like it should be significant.

Josh: Seb, can you look up that? Any significance of 2020? Well, people are saying we've had a few fights within the Gronk Squad about end of—

Craig: what is it?

Josh: End of a—

Tommy: if whether it's a new decade or some shit.

Josh: Yeah. But it is.

Craig: Well, yeah, yeah. Well, it's 2020. What do they say, that the new decade is actually '21? Because 2020 is the 10th year of this decade. Yeah, I think that's why technically they're right.

Josh: Okay, but it sounds better.

Craig: Well, if you go to— yeah, fuck, I don't know.

Josh: What were you doing in—

Craig: I don't know.

Josh: Do you remember the year 2000?

Tommy: I do, I do.

Josh: Did you have your tin hat on still at this time? Gen 1.

Craig: Yeah. I was not as concerned as everyone else, probably because I'm just generally apathetic, but only because I owned a business and our stuff was mildly computerised at that stage. Not by me, but so I thought, I fucking hope it doesn't crash for that reason. But yeah, no, it was— it kind of came and went. It was a bit nothingy. Mr. '97, how old were you in 2020? In 2000?

Tommy: You're 1 year old.

Mason: Actually, no, I would have been 2 months old.

Craig: Yeah, probably wasn't a big issue for you then. No. Maybe what's that thing that they have by the bed table?

Josh: What is that?

Craig: A baby monitor?

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah.

Tommy: That could have crashed.

Josh: God.

Craig: So that's probably not a big issue for you.

Tommy: How much time have you been spending studying?

Craig: Well, I just came from the thriving metropolis of Monash University right now. So I was there this morning at 7-ish. I left at 12:30, so I did 5 and a half hours. If I probably do at uni about, uh, 25 hours, 30 hours at uni, and then another 10 to 15 on top of that studying. So I'm trying to study 40 hours a week.

Josh: It's a lot. And so I think last time you're on the show, I don't know if you'd started—

Tommy: you hadn't started, but I think you were talking about it happening.

Josh: What's your focus like Coming from— I mean, you, you spend time thinking and writing anyway, but this is a different skill of actually applying yourself to take on.

Craig: I think it's really different when you step into a certain culture, environment, situation, uh, academic box, corporate box, where all of a sudden you, you're not in charge. So I've spent, you know, I haven't had a boss since I was 26, which was 7 years ago.

Josh: So, but good.

Craig: So now all of a sudden I'm in this environment, situation, and kind of operating system that I have no control over, which I don't need to have control over. So it's learning to adjust to that. Whereas when I'm writing books or when I'm working in my office at home versus sitting in my cubicle at Monash, um, you can be as creative as you want. You don't need ethics approval, you don't need anyone's tick. You don't need to meet certain criteria, generally speaking, because you can kind of, you know, I can say on Monday, hey Melissa, why don't we run a workshop on XYZ? And on Wednesday we're promoting it, and on Thursday we've got bums on seats, you know. And then 2 months later we might run it. Whereas in everything moves very slowly in academia, and especially at a doctorate level, that it needs to be so particular and precise and sound, obviously, as does all science. But, um, yeah, it's just— for me, it's just, um, it's, it's hard and it's uncomfortable and it's unfamiliar. And this sounds very cliché, but they are all of the places that we grow. So, you know, business is hard and uncomfortable and unpredictable and unfamiliar at the start, and then it's always evolving. And so you're doing things, and part— one of the byproducts is that you learn, grow, evolve, adapt. And in the middle of the academic or the corporate situation or the getting in shape situation or the, the new marriage that you're in or whatever the shift is, in the middle of that you become different. So you become more resilient, more adaptable, and more aware and more empathetic and more whatever you need to be to be able to survive and thrive in that space. So it's, um, it's— for me it's just been really interesting because I'm the dumbest at Monash. I'm the dumbest PhD student. I'm the oldest PhD student, but it's good.

Tommy: Was it what you expected?

Craig: Yeah, yeah, it is pretty much. I mean, the people there are really nice. I literally sit in a room that's about as big as this.

Josh: So 1,000 square feet? Yeah, 1,000 square meters.

Tommy: I don't even know if that joke's like— 1,000 square meters. Is 1,000 a lot?

Josh: Mate, this is 100. This whole, whole— we have a lease to 100 square metre building. No, 80 square meters.

Tommy: Okay, let's not get bogged down.

Craig: But anyway, so the, um, yeah, so I sit in a room basically with 7 other people in cubicles all doing, you know, some of them doing their PhD, some of them doing just research, and some of them running different programs. Because I'm at a place, um, which is— I'm based at a place which is essentially called Brain Park, or Brain Park is part of where we're at, which— so that's part of the neuroscience area that I'm in.

Tommy: Is that one like Sam Harris does? Is that the same sort of, um—

Craig: well, he's a neuroscientist, so you're— so Neuroscience is really how the brain works with the mind. The brain being the physical thing, the mind being the non-physical. And it's so with BrainPark, they're doing a lot of work around research around obsessive-compulsive behaviors, addictions, and the two modalities of treatment that we're using right now are exercise and virtual reality.

Josh: Wow.

Craig: Yeah, virtual reality too.

Josh: You'd love that for obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Craig: Yeah. So what they do is, for example, a gambler, they'll take them in they'll put on VR goggles, they'll— in the goggles, they'll walk them into a casino, they'll give them a certain amount of money. And, and once they're in that— I've done it— once you're in the experience, it's really, really real. And you get to— or it seems real— and you get to a point where you lose yourself and you forget where you are, especially if you're a gambling addict and now you're in there. Now you've got this, even though it's pretend money, you lose sight of that. And so it's trying to see what the physiological responses are with people in that environment. So what's happening with their brain, with their heart rate, with their cortisol and adrenaline endocrine system, and just trying to figure out strategies to help people and treat and manage different compulsive behaviors.

Josh: And so these people are wired up, so stuff's taped to their head. It's more technical than that. And these people, are these people who are addicts or are you using?

Craig: No, these are people who have addictive tendencies, if not people who are— will be categorised as addicts.

Tommy: Yeah. So as a student, uh, are you walking into this situation, they're saying this is what you're learning?

Josh: How does—

Tommy: how did this come about?

Craig: So that's— I, I don't— that is part of what's happening where I'm at. I'm not involved in that. There's lots of different research in the behavioural space, the bra— so I'm either going to come out depending on my research with a doctorate in neuroscience a doctorate in neuropsychology or a doctorate in psychology, straight psychology, depending on which way I go with my research and how much— whether or not I'm going to do, like, for example, brain scans and have a look at what's happening in someone's brain when they're doing certain things, which I can do because we have all that medical imaging stuff. Um, I'm just— I'm still at the very beginning, so I'm a couple of months in, and my research is around motivation and exercise programme adherence, which sounds very boring, but he's heard me say 5 million times where I've spoken about the limited value of what we call motivation in terms of creating lasting change. And so now I'm putting that to kind of the academic test. So, um, so, you know, for example, everyone who starts an exercise programme at the beginning, they're motivated. That's why they start. They're motivated, they're inspired, they're in the zone. And everyone intends to do it consistently. Very few people end up doing it consistently over time. And it's trying to figure out what are the variables in that that we can help people with, and what role does motivation play, and what about support and structure and organisation and timeline and accountability and process and all of those kinds of things. So I'm passionate about helping people change and whether or not that's change the way they do life or business or exercise or food or conversation or self-management, and it's all in that space.

Josh: I'm sure you have a different answer at the end of your degree, but in terms of when someone says, I feel motivated, it's a visceral— you can have a visceral response when you're using that term, I'm feeling motivated. What are— is there a specific feeling? Is it endorphins? What is actually going on in the body?

Craig: Yeah, so they're often— when often there is a physiological accompaniment to that cognitive state that— so if you, if, if, like, when a lot of people talk about feeling motivated, even things like blood pressure might be up, heart rate might be up, they might be producing what we would call happy hormones versus stress hormones. Um, and there's like motivation in the community sense, it's different in the academic sense, but what we would typically um, core motivation is a multi-dimensional experience. It's physical, emotional, and cognitive. So, um, you know, just like when people feel demotivated, sometimes what goes with that is depression, is lack of drive, is, is, you know, like an overall physiological and emotional state of blah, technically known as flat as fuck. Flat as fuck. And that's one of the things is the way that the way research is so fucking slow, right? And everything that happens in an academic space is so slow to get approval for everything, which is good because it's thorough, but it's frustrating because, you know, like, you guys can go, let's do 3 podcasts today, and no one's going, no, you can't. You just do 3 podcasts today if you want. Um, and so for me, that's me who's been the boss of me for 30 years, and I don't want to be the boss of anyone at Monash, but it's just getting used to working in that and realising you know, you have to follow this protocol and this pathway to, you know, create this or to get this, um, this information, and then to be able to disseminate that in a way which is valuable to people. A lot of PhDs are very, very, very, uh, a very tiny focus. So some people might spend 3, 4, 5, 6 years doing a PhD, and it's not that they shouldn't, but they come out and they've researched something which is relevant to 0.4% of the population. —whereas I want to do something which is broadly relevant, like motivation and exercise. Why the fuck do we stop? And how do we not stop? Because it's nobody's intention to consistently stop and start, but that's what we do.

Tommy: What about good science versus bad science? And is there a connection or correlation between fast science, doing something quickly, and it being bad Science?

Craig: That's a good question. So, okay, so let's start with what is science. So without being too fucking— everyone's just gone, I'm turning off. Well, really, science is just something that we created, a way to analyse and measure things to— so it makes sense to us. It's like anyone can be scientific, you know. If you write down your food every day for the next 10 days and you measure your calories and you figure out your micros and macros, and then you put down how much water you drink and what time you go to bed and then you kind of report how you feel around, you're being scientific. In fact, you're being a scientist. So science is— anyone can do science and anyone can be scientific. So it's that for me, the, the alarm bells go in science when people say things like, well, it's been scientifically proven without giving any citations or any references. But even then, you've got to be aware that science is all data, all information that's collected is then interpreted by a human, right? So, and every human's got bias. All scientists have got egos, attitudes, beliefs, values, fears, phobias, likes, dislikes. So if, for example, the wheat industry sponsor some research, there's a fair chance it's not going to say that wheat-based products are shit. Right. So it's trying to— I mean, it's very hard in anything, like in religion, in research, in politics, in sport, in corporate, to find total objectivity.

Tommy: Well, because you need constraints and you need like a framework. Like, say, Game Changers, the, the doco. Correct. So is that— yeah, yeah. So something like, something like that. I think what's potentially interesting is the difference maybe between athletes? Do you think— is there a big difference between what athletes need to perform and what the everyday punter needs?

Craig: That's a good question. So 100% is the answer, and on a range of levels. So for example, even the same athlete doesn't need the same food every day, or the same water intake every day, or the same sleep, or the same micros or macros— micros being vitamins, minerals Macros being fat, protein, carbs, right? So let's say Mr. 27's a triathlete, and let's say that his typical day is run for an hour, ride for an hour, swim for an hour. So on a typical day for him, he might need 4,000 calories to break even, but today's his off day, so today he needs 2, and today he needs half the water he had yesterday, and today he needs less sleep than yesterday because he's had a pretty cruisy day and his body doesn't need to recover as much as it did yesterday because there's been less damage, in inverted commas, done. So individually, we need different things every day. So that, that pooh-poohs the whole recommended daily intake idea, which is, oh, you're X tall and X weight and X age, therefore you too need this many calories per day. Well, that's bullshit because it doesn't take into account muscle mass, body composition, doesn't take into account the environment you work in, the heat the temperature. It doesn't take into account your energy expenditure through the day. Like, if Tommy's sitting here doing podcasts all day but his twin brother, his genetically twin brother, is out cutting down fucking trees all day, they have totally different requirements.

Josh: So, and then I'll be still pretty tired by then.

Craig: I'll still be pretty tired though. And then on top of that, um, yeah, where you talk about athletes in general who you know, there's genetic variability. So most athletes, elite athletes, have pretty good genetics. Um, and some people just— because different people have a different kind of, uh, metabolic reality or a different metabolism. Like, I am what loosely gets pigeonholed as endomorphic, which means I gain fat easily. So whereas, let's say, Tommy is more mesomorphic or ectomorphic or somewhere in between, He could naturally have more calories than me. And that's about genetics. That's not about working out or that's not about any other variable. Yeah. So it's— I think when it comes to food and exercise and recovery and how you look, feel, function, performance, I think the thing that we miss is— well, the thing that we fuck up is we think there's an arbitrary formula. There isn't. There isn't a best diet. There isn't a best training program. There isn't the best amount of sleep. There isn't the best you know, a number of calories. But what there is is a best eating plan, exercise plan, sleeping plan for you. But it won't be the same for him or him or me. So what we've done over time is, you know, you think about the vast majority of— let's say we've been around as relatively functional creatures for, I don't know, 50,000 years. Can you Google how long we've been fucking around? I don't mean as apes, but as, um, thinking, functioning. Although, am I backing myself into a corner? But what I mean is, for the vast majority of humanity as we know it, we've been instinctive. Like, we haven't lived like this. We live in fucking camps and we hunt and, and we grow and we do all these things and we pay attention to our body. But now, because everything's so ridiculously, um, which is good and bad, but everything's so convenient I just get on my phone and fucking Uber Eats is there 5 minutes later. Um, we kind of have disconnected from the biofeedback system that is our body.

Tommy: Yeah, I feel like the, um, the paleo thing, all that sort of stuff, is interesting. I had a moment the other day where I'm like, couldn't we have evolved? Like, the things that we're saying, no, we should do this because this is the thing that we did X amount of years ago, versus like But were we actually that smart then? Like, have we— like, haven't we evolved? Yeah, I don't quite—

Craig: that's a good question. I think some ways we've devolved and some ways we've— I think that obviously we're perhaps more, um, obviously we're more academic and we're more technological and maybe we're more intellectual, maybe not. But think how fucking creative and resourceful and amazing and intuitive and adaptive people were 2,000 years— how the fuck did they do the pyramids?

Josh: It's easier, you know, aliens. It's— yeah, definitely aliens. It's easier now to just see it through life cruising than it was 2,000 years ago. Just the, the tough had to survive. That's right. Or that they could only survive. That's right. It was a tough, tough existence. Where does truth come into this? So scientific, you, you're pulling on a bunch of data to see that it equates to some answer, and that answer is usually, this is, yeah, true for this. This is what— yeah, well, this is what this means.

Craig: Yeah, so that's the truth.

Josh: And then truth can be subjective. Not that you're pushing back on— I'm pushing back on science. I mean, there's—

Tommy: but there's not a single truth. If there's multiple— if there's multiple ways that we can look at a single thing, then there's going to be multiple truths. I guess if we're all independent, if we're all individuals who are, as you were talking about, Harper, having different experiences, then that single truth of Tommy needs to eat X, Y, and Z doesn't negate the fact that there's a different truth over here, what someone else needs. Correct. And it's like, true for who?

Craig: Yeah, true for who is— because for Tommy, that's true, X, Y, his needs. Ah, for me. But then what you got to do too is when you look at I looked at a research paper last week because that's my life now. How long are they? Oh, fucking long. But anyway, I was reading this fucking long— let me tell you, I'll come back to that. So I was reading this research paper, like, this is fucking amazing. And I'm like, how many people were in this study? So for a study to be valid, you'd want rock bottom a few hundred, preferably thousands. I'm like reading this, how many people are in the study? 17. All men and all between 35 and 55. I'm like, well, that's not representative of anyone except blokes in that group. And there was only 17.

Tommy: You have to dig to find that, or—

Craig: Yeah, well, I didn't. I just started reading, um, not too carefully. And then I'm thinking, these— is this right? And then I went— I had to go back and go, how many people in this study? Because this is like amazing if this is— and then I went 17 blokes.

Tommy: So do you then have a filter system now when you get a bit of research paper of like highlight, highlight, highlight?

Craig: You've got to figure out who did the research, how many people are— and I'm no expert in this place, by the— I'm a fucking newbie, I've got L plates on— but how many people were involved, who did the research, what was the environment, what were the conditions? It's like if you go, oh well, we only tested, um, we tested 100 people, and you're, well, that's not a bad sample size, but by the way, they're all triathletes. Well, that doesn't help. Yeah, because only 2% of the population are triathletes, so that doesn't apply to 98% of— so you want as broad a demographic, um, as possible in all ways, and as many people as possible. So socially, emotionally, physiologically, culturally, so you can get a really broad snapshot of humans, not just these particular humans who do this thing.

Josh: So how do these things get through to the people, like the daily intake. How does that pass any kind of knowledge test of like—

Craig: So recommend the daily intake? Yeah. Yeah, because some people have done some testing and it's not that it's flawed, it's just that what they do is they might say track Josh over, for example, 100 days and go, well, they get his total calorie consumption for 100 days.. And you go, oh, how do you feel? Yep, he's not fat. He didn't gain weight. He didn't lose weight. He's healthy. Right? 100 days, they get his calorie total. They add it up. They divide it by 100 and go, that's how many calories you need per day. And in a way, that's right. But then what they do, that they extrapolate that out to the population because we had 100 subjects and da da da. And then they go, they, they, it's called normative data where you just go, okay, so we've got These guys who are this height at this weight tend to need this many calories, and it becomes a guideline. And it's not that it's terrible, it's just that— and then you look at things like other indicators, or what we would call scientific norms or recommendations, like BMI, body mass index. So on the BMI scale, if your score is between 20 and 25, you're in the right weight range. If you're between 25 and 30 on the BMI, body mass index scale, you are overweight. If you're up towards 30, you're very overweight. I'm 29, so I'm very overweight, right? I was going to tell you, but, um, yeah, I've let myself go. And then if you're 30 to 35 in your result, then you are morbidly obese. I know you're obese, and 35 plus, you're morbidly obese. So according to the BMI, which is scientifically accepted measure, um, I'm really unhealthy. But what it doesn't factor in is muscle mass. What is body composition?

Tommy: What does popular culture do to all of this? Because I think, like, I remember speaking to, like, dietitians or nutritionists after The 4-Hour Body came out, which is Tim Ferriss's book. And my brother's an exercise scientist, and there was a lot of eye rolling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he, uh uh, lives in the US and, um, he's an assistant coach of a women's college basketball team. Of course he is. But, um, yeah, but, uh, he would always eye-roll because I would sort of, uh, um, read a book. Yeah. And then say, you'd be the— yeah, I'm the expert on all these things. Yeah. What is— I guess like there is a friction at the moment that's happening where it's like popular culture is taking the latest science, putting it into Netflix documentaries, putting it into books, and people are then using or acting upon that science. Whereas within the space that I guess you're in or academia, there's all these other cheques that go on before they even start implementing it. What does that do to the academic side of things, and do they need to speed up? Is there a way that they can sort of match popular culture? Yeah, that's a good question too.

Craig: Um, I think one of the problems with the dissemination of information broadly, and when you get, um, Chris Kresser on Joe Rogan poo-pooing Game Changers, which was on Netflix, and then James whatever his name is, the mixed martial artist who came back on Joe Rogan and poo-pooed Chris Kresser, and they've both got data and they've both got— did you watch that, the rebuttal? 3 hours of arguing. Yeah, it's just— I fucking hated it. I turned it off. I was doing my head in. I could feel myself getting anxious.

Josh: 100%. 2 smart guys arguing. It's like, I don't actually know who's right.

Tommy: Well, I guess the thing is everything is in isolation. So if you prove— if someone says something and then you prove they're wrong, it doesn't then equal that you're right or that this is the thing, or it doesn't necessarily give an answer.

Craig: It's just A lot of this shit is just not that clear. And one of the problems is that when— now, and this, this is the same with politics, this is the same with religion, this is the same with science or alleged science, is that when you believe that, that you are 100% right, then what you believe is that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. I mean, that's a byproduct. So anyone who doesn't think like me or eat like me or believe what I believe or support what I support is wrong. So nobody's open-minded. Yeah. Whereas I often go, don't fucking know. And I'm pretty educated and reasonably smart, I think. There's heaps of shit I don't know. And, you know, even with like I had a— I had— and I'm digressing, but it's not really about religion as much as it is about belief and thinking and metacognition— is I had a coffee the other day with a mate of mine who is a pastor of a church shout out to Pastor Phil. And we were talking about all this stuff, and I said, one of my problems with, um, Christianity— and I was raised in a Christian environment, and I have nothing against, you know, that's, that's my background, right? So that's where I grew up. But one of my issues is, and not just Christianity, but any dogmatic belief, whether or not that's being a vegan or being an atheist or being a Christian or being a liberal voter or whatever it is, is that when you believe, especially in the religious world, that, that your religion is the one true religion, therefore everyone else is wrong, therefore everyone who doesn't think like you or have your values or beliefs or philosophy or theology is wrong, then now you are shut down to learning. Now, now you have put yourself here and everyone else except those who support you or think like you is. And for me, that's fucking terrifying.

Tommy: Well, you're protecting your position.

Craig: Especially when we're talking about shit no one can prove. Yeah, like science, you know, fucking— we can prove gravity. I can drop that shit. Gravity is real. Yeah. You know, we can, we can measure energy expenditure and we can. But when it comes to things like faith, God— nothing wrong with having faith, nothing wrong with being spiritual, and nothing wrong with being religious. I believe if it's coming from a place of love. But is it when you talk about religious stuff, you're really talking about believing in stuff you can't prove, right? Because the whole notion of God is, is to have faith. And faith is believing in something you can't prove. You can't prove it because if you could prove it, then you'd have knowledge. Then faith would be redundant, right? I know this exists, so I don't need faith because I can fucking see it, touch it, measure it, hold it, feel it, prove it right there. It is. I can't believe God exists. Neither can anyone. And they might— oh, that's not true. Look at the wind moving. Moving the leaves. Fuck off. I mean, Amy, seriously. And, and I'm— I grew up being a believer, and I still think there's something bigger and more powerful than us. And whether that's God, I don't— but that's what I believe, and that's my faith. I can't prove it, and that's being honest.

Josh: A question I asked Amy was, um, because she was in Bible college, I said, I was just trying to get my head around sort of the small beliefs of the history that has been laid out in the Bible. Did someone actually part the seas? And I'll say, did people within the church you're in actually believe that, like the beach down here at Port Melbourne, someone just parted them? I was trying to get—

Tommy: just like, is this a symbol? Is it just symbolism?

Josh: Which it becomes, but out from the outside it's like, well, if you believe all the other stuff, if you get you believing at a micro level—

Craig: fundamental Christians believe 100% Moses went And I went, yeah.

Josh: And so then I try and relate it to now. Not that I'm saying I don't believe any of this stuff, because I think it's more symbolism, which— that's what Amy was— yeah, that's, that's her understanding of it. That's actually— there's a meaning, there's a storey behind it, which is— it's quite handy. Like, the storeys that are threaded through religion are handy. Necessarily, are they true? I don't know. I can't say that they were. I didn't have me vlogging camera there when it was going on.

Tommy: I would have loved to. Is it harder living life without a faith? Um, oh, that is—

Craig: you're coming up with all the questions. I reckon for most people, yes, because I think the idea of, okay, so you die, that's it, and you become worm food— that's fucking terrifying. So I would rather not that option. So Jesus, yeah. Or whatever. Yeah. And, and I'm not saying Jesus wasn't the Son of God. I'm not saying he was. I'm not saying— I'm not saying anything other than when you think about what— to pick your religion, it— there's an— there's a big element of belief and thinking and culture and programming. You know, when— if you grow up in a certain mindset or a certain theology or philosophy, you become that. First 7 years of a child's life, they are like little sponges, and they essentially become a byproduct of what they're programmed with. So if a kid grows up in a family that speaks 3 languages, guess what? Speaks 3 languages. If a kid grows up where no one eats meat, guess what? Not eating meat. If a kid grows up in a Catholic family, ah, it's a Catholic. And you know, you talk to Catholics who haven't been to church, like my mates who are 55, who haven't been to church for 30 years 'cause they just grew up with me and went to a Catholic school like me. You ask 'em what they are, despite the fact that they never go to church, never read the Bible, I never pray. I'm a Catholic. What does that mean? Yeah, that's— I don't, you know, it's just like you are that, you become that. And so I think the challenge with all of this stuff, with science, with faith, with, with religion, with building a brand and business, is to be able to think for yourself and choose for yourself and figure out. And I mean, you might do— go on a big exploration and come back to the same place and go, no, this is what I believe. But I think, you know, we just adopt— we get programmed unconsciously, and then we wake up and we're whatever, 30, however old you guys are. But you wake up, or in his case, 12. Um, do your fucking homework and stop looking at me like that, you know? And you wake up and you go, now I'm this person with all these beliefs who sees the world the way I see the world. Um, and I have all these values and this awareness and this understanding and these limitations and this idea about how shit works. Works. But what if there's another way to think and see and function and believe and explore?

Tommy: It feels like older people tend to become, become more and more conservative. Uh, 100%, you're generally— yeah. And you know, you're one of our older mates, but I feel like you're also open and wanting to test yourself. What does that, what does that do to the, to your life in regards to looking back? Because I guess if you're conservative, you sort of get to put your blinkers on and get into dogma and get into, I'm not really interested. Yes. And being open-minded at your age, yes. How do you reconcile your past beliefs?

Craig: So I'm less dogmatic than I've ever been, and I'm less— I'm more open and I'm more humble and aware Um, that sounds unhumble saying that, but, but in that humility, in that I'm more aware of what I don't know than ever. I don't think I'm an awesome person or anything like that, but what I mean is the older I get, the more I go, I didn't really know that, I just thought I knew that. You know, I fucked that, I've fucked up so many things. And I, I mean, I went through a period, I think you know this, I don't know if you know this, where I was as churchy as fuck. Evangelical Christian reading the Bible every day for years in my early 20s, where I'm like getting higher on the Messiah fire, you know. If loving the Lord's wrong, I don't want to be right. Come on, brothers and sisters. Um, and, and I was very fixed in my thinking. And, and, and I still, as you inferred, I still think a lot of what is in the Bible, more the New Testament than the Old, but is amazing and beautiful. And even if it's just kind of a handbook for life, a lot of it, not all of it, is amazing because it comes from, or it tries to come from, a place of love and a place of kindness and service and caring. But then at the same time, you know, the likelihood of that being written 2000 or so years ago, or the Old Testament before that, but, and that being translated to this thing we have in 2000 20 on January 1st, and that being the literal word of God? Ah, don't think so. Does it—

Josh: do you think it serves us for a time to think that we know? Like, so you said there was a time where you weren't as— not considerate, but you weren't thinking, I don't know this stuff. You knew it. And so I'm thinking, relating this to career and to be certain on what it is that, you know, the thing that you're doing versus more of an open, like, there is so much that I don't know. And so stepping up as a leader or someone who is, you know, like an expert or someone just leading the pack, it doesn't— does it serve you to be like, I don't have— I don't know much, but I do. Like, you actually do know a fuckload, but then you're just actually facing the reality, playing in ambiguity.

Tommy: Like saying, hey guys, come on this journey with me, but hang on, I also don't know all the answers.

Craig: Yeah, I reckon if you don't do that, you're being disingenuous because who the fuck knows all the answers? Yeah. And so because I mean, one of the first things I do when I'm talking to a big audience or even if I'm on my podcast or whatever, is when I'm talking about something, I always talk about my lack of knowledge, my fuck-ups. My flaws. But at the same time, I'm a lifelong learner, which is why I'm doing a PhD in my 50s. And I'm curious and I'm aware of what I don't know, and I'm happy to put up my hand. I think the more— I don't know if I'm a leader, but I guess I'm kind of a leader in some ways. Teacher, coach, mentor, all that stuff. But the more real I am and the more I share my fallibility and my flaws and my fuck-ups with people, the more they relate. If, if I'm this, you know, this high watermark of human behaviour and integrity and intelligence and perfection and execution, then people go, fuck, yeah, I get why he does it because he's this freak. But when you go, nah, I've written whatever I've written, 8 books, and I've worked in telly and radio and I've had a successful company and I've employed 500 people and I've done all this shit and, and I made 1,000 mistakes and every step of the way I felt insecure and I felt like a fraud and I didn't know what I was doing and I was making shit up and like especially in the early days and I've this for this feeling I have at uni right now where I'm sitting with all these highly intelligent highly academic, highly successful in their space people where I'm at the bottom of the ladder and I'm totally okay with it because I've been at the bottom of the ladder every time. And so you can't— sorry, you can't become— I love this idea that I've been sharing with people lately is that you can't become a black belt without being a white belt. So when you start a podcast, you're as white as fuck. You're a white belt. We can't lose that either. Yeah. And yet you have to get to the point where, you know, I'm just going to do— I'm going to show up at the dojo. I'm just going to get my ass kicked. I'm just going to get smashed. I'm going to learn shit. I'm going to play with people, fight with people, train with people, learn with people, live with people, communicate and connect with people who are better at shit than me because I get dragged up. I'm not interested at any level in being the smartest in the room. Yeah, fuck it. I definitely want— the moment I'm the smartest in the room, I'm going to another room.

Josh: I feel like it's quite in vogue to be meta or have conversations that are meta. So you're talking about something that you know a lot about, but then talking about how you don't know much about the thing that you're talking about because it's so broad. Um, has it— do you think it's been different in the past? Do you think there was a time where it didn't add as much value to sort of point out all the stuff that you don't know and to lead it from a marketing perspective? I think a lot of—

Craig: I think it's shifted. I think people, some people are becoming— there's still a lot of cheesy bullshit, you know, that annoys me. But I think one of the smartest things that Tony Robbins did in the last 5 years is release a doco called I'm Not Your Guru, like, which was while the same time acting like a fucking guru the whole time. But I like that he— and not that he ever positioned himself verbally anyway as a guru, but I think it's wise for people just to go, I'm just another bloke and I'm in a different position, or just another girl. I'm in a different position, I've got a bit more attention than you. But, um, you know, like, you think about— think about successful people. If we could get, say, 1,000 high-profile people versus 1,000 of the general population and then compare, for example, drug use and drug addiction, alcohol abuse, um, uh, and depression and anxiety. It's in both groups, but it's misrepresented. Like, it's, it's disproportionately higher in people who you would think have a successful life. Um, and I, I think it's important to understand that, um, what's happening externally— like, some people look like they have the shiny life. They tickle the house, the car, the brand, the body, the partner, the bank balance, the— you know, there's this representation of success and whatever. But so many times inside that picture is this broken human that has got low self-esteem, that has got terrible body image, that, that feels like a fraud, that lacks confidence, that is insecure, that really what they need is not more shit externally. What they need is a fucking hug. What they need is somebody who just loves them for them, not for what they can do for them. Like, there are people in my life, and I don't care if they hear this because they know who they are, but there are people in my life that I only ever hear from when they want something. And then there are other people where I see the phone, I go, oh cool, because I know this person just loves me and they're a friend, you know. And so Um, I think that it's really prudent to be careful about managing the external, that what's going on out here, but also which you're doing now with your meditation. And I don't know about you, big fella, but where you, you're kind of taking care of your mental and emotional and spiritual, whatever that means for you, space, and being fully cognizant that you can have the best life, but in the middle of that life you're a fucking train wreck. So therefore life's actually shit.

Josh: I think we want people to have the answers. Like, if you think about the courses, the exercise courses that aren't specific or tailored to you, but they have thousands of people signing up monthly. Yes, it's because they— you either feel like there's an answer, this is the answer. I remember, like, I've spoken to you and asked you questions, and your answer has been, you know, this is not specific to, you know, like you always give that caveat because it is so, it needs to be so specific to an individual for it to make sense. But the reason I ask you, say it could be around fitness, like what, what do you think of paleo diet? Like we want to hear that there is an answer. Yeah. And the hard, and the hard answer to the question is, well, it's not specific, we need to get into it. And it's like, that's not sexy. And so I think You look to these people like gurus. We want to ask a question, them to have the answer, not to tell them that— tell us that it's going to be a journey.

Craig: And we'll do it. I did it. I had a guy on my podcast called Professor Ian Brighthope, who's a genius. You should get him on. Um, he started the first inter— I think he started the first integrative medicine clinic in the world, uh, definitely in Australia. And we're talking about— and he, before he became a doctor and then like an integrative medicine specialist and advocate for medical marijuana and all this. Before he did his medical training, he did, um, agricultural science. So he did a whole degree in that at university. So he's an expert in soil as well as, um, and he's very fucking smart. Anyway, I had him on the show and we were talking and I said, what are you taking? He said, I take mega doses of vitamin C. And I'm like, pen and paper, how much exactly? Just 4,000 milligrammes a day.

Tommy: I don't know what it is.

Craig: And I'm like, which one? He wouldn't tell me on the podcast. Because he didn't want to promote it. So, you know, so I literally, once we got it, which one, how much? And I'm fucking straight down there like a little robot getting— well, if the professor can do it and he's a professor and he looks really good and he's 70-odd, I'm like, I'm doing— we're all the same.

Tommy: Well, think about '90s TV, like Good Morning Australia or whatever. It's like, we've got Craig Harper on the show. You've got fucking 2 minutes.

Josh: Yeah. And you've got every answer.

Tommy: Yeah. It's like if you think about Dr. Oz or any of these, like what old school media was, was a one-dimensional key message approach.

Craig: Kind of bullshit, really. Really. I mean, you know, this is beautiful. This is the new— this is, this is why podcasts are so awesome, because I have no agenda. I don't care what people do. I'm not pushing a product, a program, a brand. Don't care. Like, all I want to do is share from my heart what I think and know. And people are going to, you know, and there are no soundbites.

Tommy: There are no— It's hard to produce, right? I feel like there could even be, having done like a little bit of talkback where I was the tech person, you need to come up with the fast bits, the bit of advice that's going to work.

Josh: But here's the 3 pieces of tech you need to put in the bin. Yeah, but then here's the others.

Tommy: But the funny thing is that if you listen to it like 99% of the time, people who are actual experts will say, leave your number with the producer, I'll call you back, because everyone's fucking different. Everyone had— I don't know what phone you're using, I need to get all these details. Whereas within, I guess, the old-school media, uh, it was encouraged to have the answer. And I guess maybe things like low-fat diets and all these sort of things got across the line in a much sort of bigger way because of that one-dimensionality.

Craig: And that's a really good, um, that low-fat thing is a really interesting— speaking of science, that's a really interesting conversation because when, um, so low-fat diets came out in the '70s and proliferated in the '80s. And but if you look at a, um, there's quite a few graphs on the internet where you look at the proliferate— proliferation of low-fat diets and the incidence of obesity and it just goes— it's a parallel. Yeah. So, you know, low-fat eating equated to high-fat humans because we replaced the fat with sugar. So, and which creates an insulin response, which creates this whole metabolic state that predisposes people to gain weight and be fatter. Um, but that, that— speaking of science, here's one for you. You might have heard it, you'll fucking love it. So this is my best recollection, it's about right, which is terrible coming from a scientist, but, but the study's real. So there, there was a guy called Ancel Keys who conducted a study. Mr. 97's on it, he's fucking Googling it already. Uh, Ancel Keys, A-N-C-E-L Keys, and he was commissioned to do research, I think by the American government, to look at different countries and different cultures around the way that they ate. So their typical eating behaviours Diets and the correlation to obesity levels. So they did a 28-state, 28-country study. So his, his agenda was low-fat diets are good. So what he was trying to prove was that low-fat diets are the way to go. So all the data came back, took a very long time. It's like a meta-study, and 21 of the 28 countries refuted his or contradicted his hypothesis. So what they did was they cut out those 21 countries from the study and they rocked up, presented their findings, and went, okay, so we looked at 7 countries and here are our results. And shit like that happens all the time where people have an agenda and they, they will find a way. Now I might have fucked up a bit of that story, but Bear with me. But, but that happens all the time where researchers or companies perhaps who employ people to research funded by the company, they of course they have an agenda. It's like there was— I don't know, I won't even say because I don't want to get in trouble, but I'm— I heard on pretty good advice that there was a phone company that did a whole lot of research around whether or not pressing a phone against your ear could create neurological problems, brain damage, in other words, because they wanted to— they wanted everyone to take a fucking breath and go, look, we did all this and it's, it's all good. And it came back the opposite. And so they went, shh, put it in. They spent millions and went, all right, you researchers, fuck off, and paid them and went and just squashed it. What about the food pyramid?

Josh: How do we end up with that bloody doozy? It wasn't aliens.

Craig: Well, that was fuckwits. That was, that was probably around. Well, And that's one of the things that I think this is important, that if you really are a student and you really want to just share positive, real, truthful messages, then you also need to recognise when you've been saying stuff that's wrong and acknowledge it. And I grew up— when I grew up, I started working in gyms in 1982. And 1980s and '90s, the food pyramid was— it wasn't even the rage, it was just like science. This is the best way to eat. This was in This is in textbooks. This is in university courses. Here are the fundamentals. This was what dietitians were taught. Now these are the high watermarks for nutritional advice. Dietitians were taught to base diets for their patients and clients on the food pyramid. And then one day we went— we found out that's all kind of flawed science. So I remember having to say to a whole bunch of people, "Yeah, sorry, got it wrong." What happens to dietitians that do all of this training?

Tommy: Yes, around something that turns out to be bullshit. I mean, do they, uh, do they get their money back?

Craig: Well, I mean, not all of it's bullshit, but some of it's like with exercise science, it's like with medicine, everything's evolving. It's like with, I would think, you know, engineering and build— everything changes. And what used to be common practise or what used to be regarded as legit science, we kind of learn new stuff. So I think that's any any professional industry.

Tommy: But, um, but that's why pop culture is having such an impact on all of this, because people can point to pivotal moments like low-fat diets, like, uh, you know, the food pyramid, and say, hey, these experts were wrong. And so based on that, if you can't— you can't say that this is potentially wrong because your foundational knowledge is flawed. Yeah, which can be a bit of a headfuck. Like, I guess that's like fake news, any of these things. It's like, okay, well, uh, it is a lot easier in life to be able to say this is right or this is wrong. I don't know if the general public or tribes of people can work well when it could be a grey area.

Craig: I think you know, that, that desire that we have to, to know everything is part of the problem. Like, we just, we just don't, and we never will, you know. So I think it's just, you know, as you learn new things and unlearn, you know, I always say to people, a big part of becoming a great teacher, student, mentor, coach is being able to unlearn. And I've had to unlearn lots of things, you know. And some of the things that I taught in the '80s I shudder at now, you know, some of the things I said in the '80s and '90s and even 2000s. I'm like, fuck, why did I think that? And why did I teach that? And you go, well, I know better now, so I'll do better now. And like the way that— not so much you teaching, but the way that you guys did podcasts 2 years ago, or the way that you filmed, or the way that, you know, as you learn more stuff, you drop stuff off, you employ new things, you— and if someone asked you for advice about something now, you'd give them probably different advice to 3 years ago. But 3 years ago you thought that was it and this is cutting edge and this is how it works. Now you go, maybe it doesn't exactly work like that.

Tommy: And it feels like given the operating system that society is running on at the moment with cancel culture and all that type of stuff, there's got to be some form of correction. Like when everyone— if we, if we can just assume that everyone is flawed, everyone has problems, like no one is perfect, yes, then we need to readjust our operating system in the way that we conduct our lives and how we judge people, right? Because I just wonder what point it's going to get where it's like, oh, like we actually need to be able to like live a productive life.

Craig: And what about this idea, just loving people who don't agree with you or think like you or share necessarily your ideology, philosophy, theology, What about just being a good human? Doesn't mean that you need to love everything that they do. Or like, I've got friends that they're— nearly everything about them is different to me. Like I've had friends going, you know, you doing that PHD, I don't get it. Yeah, I'm like, that's okay, mate. You don't have to do it. I don't expect you to do it. Yeah. You know, it's just I think being able to you know, be okay with not having to live in an echo chamber. Like, a lot of people feel more comfortable and confident and certain when they surround themselves with people who agree with them. And that's the problem, you know. That's a thing called confirmation bias, is when I think that my behaviour or my choice or my lifestyle or my habit or my philosophy, when I 100% think I am right, then I only pay attention to people who sound like me, which means I'm arrogant, which means I've got a superiority complex, which means I'm unteachable. So I go through life knowing that fucking everything I've said today could be bullshit. Do you know what I mean?

Josh: Yeah, it's hard though, because when it— if you look at it, say if you have a friend who comes to you and speaks to you about a certain topic and you just don't agree, and then you bring it up and then they crack the shits. And so then you're like, oh, I won't bring anything up to that person because they can't handle any other opinion on this thing. And so what I'm saying is, I think it— you see how it breeds, you see how people just gravitate, because it's these people who don't want to change. It's so uncomfortable because, you know, half the time you don't want to have an argument. Yeah, but I think also it's—

Craig: yeah, it, it's tough. Like, when you have somebody that, that they won't— that they get mad or angry or offended because you don't agree with them, might be time to reassess that relationship. I'm like, see ya. Yeah, I've got a litmus test for friends, and it's this: is my life better with this person in it or out of it? And that's, you know, I'm not talking about acquaintances, but in terms of people that I open the door, okay, we are friends, you're in my personal life. There ain't many people. I mean, it's a hard—

Josh: this is probably a time of year it gets complicated with family because not everyone wants to actually be— they wouldn't be friends with their family members. That's so true. Unless they were family.

Craig: That's the blood. And I think often that's just about trying to manage that relationship, you know. Um, like, I, I love my dad, my dad's a good dude, but we're kind of dissimilar with some things. And not that we've ever had— we've probably had 2 blues in my whole life. But because we're quite different, like, I had problems with— not problems, but I would often be frustrated or disappointed because my dad wouldn't behave the way he— I thought he should. Like, how dare you not be like me, Dad? And my advice is right, Dad, and I love you. And so I'm coming from a good place, so therefore It's just ridiculous. So now I expect my dad to be like my dad, and I'm not disappointed anymore, and I'm not frustrated. So frustration— we actually, we say this thing, oh, fuck you, frustrate me. The person doesn't frustrate you, you get frustrated as a byproduct of your own expectations of how they should be. So, and I don't mean this to sound bad, but if I expect say someone who's addicted to drugs, to behave like they're addicted to drugs. And that's not being— having no faith in them or being disappointed or, or being, uh, uh, discriminatory or judgmental. But because that's what that— their behaviour has taught me the last 100 encounters, probably what's going to happen this time. Or maybe a better example is somebody who last time, 100 times we had a conversation, it went down a particular route. That's probably going to go down that route again today. And that's not good or bad. That's just understanding what to expect from people. You know, when you expect people to be like you and think like you, you set yourself up for frustration. Which is not to say if somebody thinks in a destructive way that you're supporting it or advocating it, it's just understanding. It's like, I hate addiction, but I love addicts because I work with drug addicts. I hate alcoholism, but I love alcoholics because I care about them, because I want to help them, and I understand the disease of addiction and alcoholism. I understand people who might be diametrically opposed to my philosophy, but I don't necessarily agree with them, but I can still have a friendship with them.

Josh: Do you get reflective this time of year, looking back and then looking what's going on? No, no, no, not really.

Craig: I could feel, but no, not really. I think, I think I'm very grateful my whole life. I feel very blessed.

Josh: What about, uh, achieving? So the difference from now, uh, you as a human now to 15 years ago when you're trying to build what you have now. Yes. What are the learnings for the next 15 years looking forward and how you achieve, yeah, some greater thing or whatever you're looking to I think, um, for a long time in business anyway, it's really about more physical, measurable, you know, KPIs.

Craig: How many people are watching the podcast? How much— what's our sponsorship? Or, you know, how many bums are we getting on seats to workshops? Or how many members do I have? Or how many clients do I have at my gym? Whereas now for me, it's more about, um, it's more value-driven than money-driven or business-driven. So, uh, for me it's more about the— which sounds naff and probably predictable, but it is truly about the amount of people I can help. Because you get to— I get to a point— I got to a point where I went, okay, so on a— I'm not rich, but on a financial level I'm okay. I got a beach house, I've got a house, I got some stuff, I don't have any debt. I don't know how much money does the bloke who doesn't drink or smoke or do drugs or have a wife or have kids how much money does that guy need? And the answer is not much. So 6 million. So for me to earn X, say my, my bottom line is X to survive, I probably earn 5X. So why would I need 10X or 15X or 20X? You know what I mean? Um, and so for me it's more about, and again, as cheesy as this might sound, building mental, emotional, and spiritual wealth so that I just like who I am. I'm more interested in who I'm becoming and who I am and how I'm serving than I am with what I drive or where I live. What, what if you took that approach 15 years ago? Um, I always had a bit of that in me, which was why I went on that spiritual journey when I was young with my tambourine and my, um, kaftan at church. But I like when you're in the middle of a practical reality like a business that is a gym with lots of moving parts, um, you've still got a landlord and you've still got, you know, mouths to feed and people to pay. And, and I think when I got out of the situation, like when I got out of my last gym 5 years ago, uh, a lot of the practical expectations and pressures that were there obviously were instantly gone. So there was an element of freedom that came with that that just let me— now there's a lot of things that I don't have to worry about anymore, and I'm very aware of that. And I'm very aware that, that my life compared to a lot of people's lives is very easy. So I don't, I don't pretend that I'm killing the game. I, you know, there are— and I talk to people all the time who are just, you know, like John that, you know, that got blown up. Johnny, who got blown up in an industrial accident and, you know, was meant to die, and then he was going to be a quadriplegic and a paraplegic. And anyway, I see him 3 days a week. So just seeing someone like him keeps me just so grateful and humble and aware that I'm spoiled. And I always say to my friends, if I complain about my life, punch me in the face, because my life's definitely not the problem.

Tommy: 5 years ago with the last gym Was there any baggage that remained that you were expecting? I guess we all have the transitional point of when this happens, then I will arrive at a place of calm and accepting of what I have. Did you have to do any work of cutting the last bit of baggage?

Craig: Yeah, I think because I was so used to being in— so used to being our boss and having lots of moving, even though it was quite stressful towards the end I was used to having a 10,000 square foot building with my name across the front of it on Nepean Highway in Brighton and going and people knowing where Harper's is. And, and then part of me, my ego, I guess, was like, well, once I get out of that, people are going to think I'm a loser now because I, you know, so there was lots of shit because I got a sense of self and self-esteem and confidence from me being Craig Harper, you know, fitness industry leader, pioneer, fucking all that stuff.

Tommy: Did you fear it before it came or was it only after?

Craig: Didn't really fear it. I was— it was so messy towards the end just in terms of taking care of getting, you know, getting out of the building. And landlord was just an interesting chap and there was a bit of bits and pieces going on there that we won't go into. But once I got out of it there was a relief, and then there was a bit of, hmm, you know, like maybe a month later where I started to go, how will I be busy every day now? What will I do? Even though I didn't— you know, I already had enough work and income to be more than fine. But yeah, for me, I need to learn and I need to be stimulated. If you said to me, Harps, we're going to give you $2 million in 2020, but you can't do any work, you can't coach anyone, you can't do a presentation, uh, you can't write an article, you can't share anything online. You have to— you can't, you can't write down your ideas, you can't write a book. You've got to do fucking nothing. You've got to— that's jail. You've got to, you've got to watch telly. You can't do anything productive. But we'll give you— I wouldn't take— I 100% wouldn't take it. 100% because it would It would kill me. And it's just like, I think also you get to a point where, you know, I forget what the figure is, maybe you know it, Tommy, but I think it's like $80,000 or $100,000 where money really makes a difference. It depends on the culture.

Tommy: It's like $75,000 or something.

Craig: And then above that, there's no correlation with happiness. So I'm sure that number's going up all the time. But you know, you go and you think it does, you think, and if that was true, then all the wealthy people would have the least problems. But as we said before, that's not the case.

Tommy: What about like, a lot of people can relate to the idea of having some form of messy thing happen in their life in regards to relationships, whether it's a business partnership gone wrong or family issues or whatever it is. How have you— if, if we're constantly changing and evolving and looking back and cringing at the things things that we have done. How do you, do you reconcile your actions in the hard times to be able to let it go and move on?

Craig: What do you mean reconcile?

Tommy: Well, I guess like if you, um, like say if you leave a job, right, and it's like not that nice, you're not feeling that great about it. Yeah. Is there a, um, yeah, I just, I just wonder what the, the, um, the feeling is as we are constantly evolving and we cringe at all the things we do. It's like, oh fuck, I probably shouldn't have sworn at this person.

Craig: So if there's something I can undo or fix, I'll undo it or fix it. If I can't, I'll do my best to let go of it. And, you know, this is very, you know, Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now, is being present. And I'm always trying to be like being with you here right now. I'm not thinking of anything I've got to do later. There's not— I'm not thinking about what happened this morning. I'm trying to be present.

Tommy: Actually, I saw a guy the other day walking along reading The Power of Now. Wow. It was a little bit— wow— ironic because he wasn't looking where he was going. Yeah, that's hilarious.

Craig: Um, and, and I think just controlling my controllables and going, well, like, I've done dumb shit and, and I've apologised to people and I've hurt people and I've, I've been a dickhead. I've done some good stuff. I've done— I've helped people. And for me, it's always about trying to have— this is maybe the hardest thing for humans to do other than all the practical survival things, but on an emotional and communication and relationship level is to have self-awareness. Because in other words, what's the me experience like? What's the Tommy experience like? What's the Josh or the Mr. 97 experience like? What's it like being around me? Because I— and it's been interesting for me going to uni where all of a sudden I'm— well, I'm nobody anyway, but I'm definitely nobody there. I'm just an old guy who's doing a PhD and they don't give a fuck that they're lovely, but they don't— there's no— like when I go to an event, a Craig Harper event, I'm Craig Harper at a Craig Harper event. It's a different dynamic and there's lots of energy and fun and respect and interaction. And, you know, in that moment, like, you're being that person playing that role— or not playing that role, but you're you. And then you go to uni and you're like, oh yeah, I'm actually— it's awesome because you go, I'm just another— as Mick Hall says about jail, I'm just another bare bum in the shower. I'm just another fucking dude. I'm just, you know, I am nobody. It's just this storey I've told myself that I'm that or that.

Tommy: So take a couple of times, like, do you have to go to a few classes before you realise you don't have to actually stand at the front?

Craig: Yeah, I will tell you, there are no classes in a PhD. It's just study. Yeah, totally.

Tommy: No, that's it. I've got no idea.

Craig: Yeah, no, there's no exams, there's no essays to write, there's no— no, you just write academic research papers and then you hand them in. You get them— we don't hand them in. Hopefully I'll write 4 academic research papers and get them published in academic journals. That's—

Tommy: and so day to day, so you go in, are you using Word? What do you like to use? Microsoft Word? What's the deal?

Craig: Google Scholar. Okay. And another thing called PubMed. There's a bunch of academic search engines. And I'm like, right now I'm— I don't want to bore people, but I'm just coming up with the overall look and feel of my— what I'm— the questions I'm asking, the research I'm doing. What, what I'm suggesting— so what I'm suggesting is, I think people find this a bit interesting, is that the way that motivation is defined and discussed and understood in an academic setting is different generally to the way that motivation is understood in the general community. So in, in academia, when they talk, or when we talk about See how I don't include myself in academia? The academics in academia, when they talk about motivation, essentially they're using that word interchangeably with the word reason. So Josh's motivation for getting out of bed was to go to work, to make some money, to support his family or whatever. Josh's reason for getting out of bed was to go to work, to make some money. Right. It's the same. It's analogous. Right? But in the general community, for the last 35 years, when I talk to people about motivation, they're talking about how they feel. They're talking about their emotional state. I'm pumped, I'm excited, I'm in the zone, I'm motivated. So they're talking about something different to having an underlying reason. So for example, um, somebody who smokes intellectually knows it's bad for them and they would like to give up So they have a consistent reason, right, to give up smoking, but they might not have the accompanying level of motivation to get the wheels turning. Sure. So in other words, I'm talking about motivation from the point of view of that state, that excited emotional psychological state that we get into where something happens, we're motivated, we're in the zone, we're pumped, we join the gym, we're fucking running around with our undies on our head for 3 weeks training, then we drop off, then we drop off, then it's 3 months later, we're not motivated. The reason's still there— I need to be healthy— but the motivation has disappeared. And so what happens with most people, or a lot of people, is they get motivated, they make a decision, they change a behavior, they get a result. Eventually they get demotivated, then the choices stop, the behaviours stop, and the results stop. So the challenge is How do I keep doing what works? Like, you guys are fully committed to this. I know you talk about your 10 years, and there will be times when you go, I don't feel like a fucking podcast. I don't fucking— I'm having a shit day. I'm normal, I'm human, I'm fuck— I'm a bit worried about stuff, I'm stressed, I'm anxious. Hi everyone, welcome to the Daily Talk Show episode, uh, you know, whatever.

Josh: The nail on the head, hasn't it?

Craig: Right, because that's life, because you're going to go through peaks and troughs. And I watch lots of what you do and listen to lots of what you do. And almost 100% of the time, and probably just because I know you, sometimes maybe where I can go, oh, someone's not— that anything's bad, but you might be having a bad day or a shit day because you're human. But, but you turn up, you show up, and it's not because you're motivated. It's because you are fully fucking committed to this process. And so the challenge is, how do I build an amazing podcast? Or how do I lose 30 kilos? Or how do I whatever, fill in the blank, whatever the goal is, how do I stay doing those things that create that result when I can't be fucked, right? And so the real challenge is how do I stay proactive, productive, and effective when I'm not motivated? And so that's what I'm looking at. That's my PhD, that around exercise.

Tommy: There's a bunch of stuff around artists and the idea of genius, and genius is something that's not within but something that visits. I could almost see like parallels there with motivation, which is like, you know, a lot of the, you know, the best poets or philosophers, it's like the gene, like they sit down and they've got a, you know, a pen and pad or whatever it is. And there the genius arrives, they write, but then it can go away. And by detaching the genius from the character, from the person, you actually allow it to visit more often because it's something that's not attached necessarily to your identity. These people into crystals too. Yeah, exactly. Charging. Yeah, charging crystals.

Craig: I always say to people at the end of— sorry, Tommy— at the end of a workshop, I often ask this question and I go, put up your hand if you're a bit motivated and inspired, more motivated and inspired than you were. Yeah. At the start, pretty much every hand goes up and I go, that's going to pass. I go, It's Sunday, that'll be gone by Tuesday because it is. It's what— it's what we get excited, then we get unexcited. So that's the challenge. My job's not to inspire or motivate people. My job is to help people to help themselves. So I always say I care about what you're doing when you can't be fucked, because what you do when you can't be fucked, what you do when you don't want to, what you do when it's uncomfortable, unfamiliar, uncertain, messy that's what matters.

Tommy: Do you think maybe it's because we also communicate as a culture that like things always need to be fun and that you're enjoying it?

Craig: That is another good— it's such a fucking stupid idea because it's completely unhealthy. Yeah, like even the goal of— I was listening to something on the way here, um, Lewis How, who's got the School of Greatness or something. It's not a bad podcast. To be honest, he annoys me a bit sometimes. Shout out to Lewis. Um, no, he's all right. But I was listening to— he's talking to this dude. Um, can you cheque the latest podcast? The name of the guy, it's, uh, Singer. Um, won't be the latest by the time this comes up, but they were talking about this idea of— and he asked this question, it was something like, you know, because the goal is, is, you know, that we're happy, that they're talking about like this idea of perpetual happiness. Um, some Dan Reynolds. Yeah, from Imagine Dragons. Thank you, thank you. Anyway, good conversation, and I like Lewis, and I like, um, what's his name, Dan. Yeah, he was cool. But I was thinking, it's actually a dumb idea, the pursuit of perpetual happiness, because it's not realistic. It's like I'm spending my life trying to find a fucking unicorn. They don't exist. There aren't. I know that it's a nice idea, but they're not real. And Perpetual happiness is not real. So I think a better goal is like, happiness is awesome, and when it's there and if we can create it, for sure. But a better goal perhaps is to be able to just self-manage in the middle of sadness and anxiety and depression and happiness and joy and good days and shit days. Because if you're, if you're waiting on this perpetually happy life you're going to be fucking disappointed. So the challenge is go, all right, I'm having a shit day. All right, well, don't turn the volume up on it and make it a catastrophe. Just go, it's a shit day. I'm going to have shit days. This is one.

Tommy: Yeah. Tomorrow might be less shit. If it's reframing it into this is part of the journey and to expect it and to embrace it, it's like I remember hearing, it's like without friction there isn't traction. And I always constantly think of that, like when shit's hard, it's like the hard thing, trying to work out how to get cash flow right or things like that. That is friction to be able to say, okay, like you've actually got an opportunity to dial all this in where if it's easy all the time, if it all just works, yeah, you're never actually fucking learning. Yeah. What you're meant to be doing.

Josh: Well, if there's signals, it's just reframing what the signal is telling us. So the sadness He's telling us something. I've got a question.

Craig: You ready? Yeah. I'm gonna fucking throw the podcast into turmoil.

Tommy: Okay, this is good. You ready?

Craig: Yeah. Tommy? Yes? What's going on with you?

Josh: What's going on with me?

Craig: Yeah, tell me what's going on with you because I'm sensing something. Oh, you know I love you. What is going on? I'm pretty burnt out.

Josh: I reckon this is the closest I've ever felt to being burnt out.

Craig: So let's— you and I are going to help him a little bit. Mr. 97, feel free to chip in. So what is— so physically, emotionally, mentally?

Josh: Yeah, I haven't been able to— I've— I, I haven't been able to get 100% well in my body, I don't think. And I think it's just, um, mentally and physically that I haven't been able to sleep enough. We've been working a lot, and I think it's just an accumulation of doing it for a long time before we have a break, which I think, um, if anything, I've listened to my body more than I ever have this year. And I— and there's a point, it's like, have some sleep. It's like, I fucking want to listen to my body, and I go to bed pretty early, but it's still not enough. I don't know. And so it's like, at that point, it's like, I, you kinda have to push through some level of pain to get there. And I feel like that's that point for me.

Craig: What's the— feel free not to answer this and feel free to edit this. What's the underlying anxiety?

Josh: He's bungin' his muck on my face, don't ya? What's the underlying anxiety? Like, what are you scared of at the moment?

Craig: And by the way, we're all scared of shit, me included. But what are you scared of at the moment?

Josh: I think there's been a bunch of unknown, like, stuff in our business, the podcast. I think it just feels like— the thing is, you can, you can feel severely ungrateful for where we've got to when you're just feeling a bit fucking numb to the whole experience. I don't feel sad. I don't tend to feel sad. Yeah, I'm pretty grateful for that. But it just is like you kind of just would you just seeing it through?

Craig: I think it's tough because you guys, and I've said this many times, and I talked to, I would talk to 2, 3 people a week about your podcast and I use you as an example. And it's, you can get to the point where you go, fuck, we're grinding, we're grinding, and the efforts are 9.5 and the returns are 1 sometimes. No disrespect to the Gronks, we love you. Yeah, but in terms of like it's great to put this thing out into the world, but you still got to pay for this joint. You've got to pay for that bloke and you've got to eat and you've got to eat. And, you know, it's, it's sometimes the, the return and the, the investment are disproportionate, you know. And so it's just, it is, it is. But, but what you're both doing is, or what you're all doing, I should say, it's, it's, it's, it's amazing. Like, it's, and I know, and that's not me trying to make you feel good. Like, it's just, it is really, really fucking amazing. The quality that you churn out every every day. And I know you have episodes that are a 9 and episodes that are a 7, as do I. I've done podcasts— I don't— in fact, I've done podcasts that I didn't even air, you know. But it's, it's just in the middle of that, like, I think for you, you're both gonna, you know, you're gonna both look back in a couple of years and go, thank fuck we persevered.

Josh: Well, I think if you can, like, understanding what Josh is saying, it's like the, the hard times are actually the times that get you to the good time. Yeah, when you can actually fathom that, and I think I've understood that more than ever this year, is like when you don't feel great doesn't mean that it's the end of the fucking world. It's actually a part of the process. It's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people because it's annoying. Times are fucking annoying. Sadness is sad.

Tommy: Living in the present, and so if you're— all you've got is the present moment, and the present moment feels fucked. But I think that there is that— there's the faith element too, right? Which is like, okay, if we tell the storey of— this is Seth Godin talks about, it's not about not being tired, it's knowing what to do with the tired. And so part of it is that, which is like, which with the platform we have, it's actually fucking harder to hide the tired because the way people show that they're tired is—

Craig: why do you have to hide the tired? You should be tired. I don't think you need to come on every day and go, hey, just go, hey guys, how you going? I'm fucked. If you get on, you know, if you go, I'm fucked, I'm tired, but I'm here. Yeah. And I'm normal and it's okay.

Tommy: The funny thing is though, I think that like we've talked about the physiological change that we can have through doing the show. So the show can actually— we can feel a certain way before the show. And be changed through the process of doing it. And so there's a part of it too, which is it's a fine balance of authenticity, doing all of that sort of stuff and also showing up. And then at the end of the—

Craig: Yes, you know, but I think it's— you do want to bring your best self and you don't want to go, hi everyone, welcome back. You know, I'm having a shit day. But you can also, you know, like it's, it's okay. It's like people, because you are generally high energy and inspirational and fun, and so are you. You, well, um, oh well, um, oh, you're awesome, mate. I'm just fucking with you. Yeah, um, have a good year. What I was going to ask too is, how do you, um, how do you two— feel free to edit any of this, but this is something I've wondered.

Josh: He knows we don't edit, so he's really got us, hasn't he?

Craig: How do you two manage? Because you spend so much time together and you are similar but different. You are similar. And by the way, I reckon this is going to be like, for me, before you answer that question, I reckon you've really grown this year because you've kind of gone, to me, you seem like from a kid to a grown-up because you always had a lot of that kid energy. And I think you should still try and hang on to that, but you're, you've kind of matured a lot. Which is good. How do you manage to keep your— or do you have a strategy around keeping your relationship healthy?

Tommy: I reckon, like, I've been thinking, like, especially December, for me it's been like radical ownership specifically on what I'm doing, right? So it's actually take, like, from a team perspective, saying, what, what can I be? And this is something I have to work on. I think that within partnerships, the big mistake mistake that people can make is to always try and seek equal. So it's like, okay, we all, we all performing at the highest thing where there's times that I'm not performing, there's times when Tommy's not performing, and that's fine. And so part of it, I think, from a culture point of view, making sure that we're operating as a team is almost siloing some of that, which is like, and so for me, the biggest thing has been when I, uh, when I frame things as, fuck it, I'm in this situation, or, or things like that, I can easily— if I can give myself an out, I will. If I can blame someone else, I will. And so if I just don't make that an option and say, okay, yeah, there's no one else, yeah, we've picked— we've, we've made all of these decisions, and so then it's saying, okay, just showing up, doing as much as you can, and then figuring it out, realising that it's temporary as well. I think that I used to think that if I do this thing now, it's going to have to be the thing that happens forever, whereas it can also be like, you know, temporary, like things are temporary, things are constantly changing. And so, um, yeah, I think that's— but like, even I guess within the podcast format, I think that there's, there's a thing of, uh, say, say seeking that equal thing around conversations. I think that we've gotten comfortable in the last week is like the adult bit that you're talking about with Tommy is his ability to be like, I'm actually fucking exhausted. So if I don't have anything that I think that I want to ask, I'm not just going to fucking blurt out.

Craig: Yeah, we don't need to go, how many questions have you asked? Fuck, I need 3 more. Yeah. And so I think that like, that's just authentic though. I can tell he's a bit tired. That's just called being human. It's good. It's good. I'm, you know, there are days where I'm fucking so tired, like I'm starting to think about bed at 5 PM. Yeah. Like I'm so excited about bed. Yeah. And other days where I'm an idiot and I'm bursting out of my skin. Can I ask you a question, Mr. 97? Yeah, go for it. So I want to ask you what I feel like I'm running the show now. Sorry, I'm just giving you a rest. So you've been full-time with the boys for how long?

Mason: Maybe like 9, 10 months.

Craig: Okay, so apart from all the technical stuff, but what have, what have you learned? I mean, you've learned how to, you know, do all the stuff you do from a technical point of view, but just from a growing up point of view and travelling with the boys overseas and being around two really interesting creative cats and and meeting a fucking multitude of people on the podcast. Like, how have you changed and what have you learned?

Mason: There's definitely more of an openness to learning and taking on different perspectives. So there's— I've definitely become more empathetic. I'd usually have these, I guess, like preconceived ideas of things, and then being able to look at it from Josh's perspective or Tommy's perspective, or if we have a guest, on their perspective. It's definitely broadened my horizon in that regard. Um, I think the, the other thing is also all the showing up stuff has been massive. Yeah. Um, realising that you, you don't have to be perfect in everything you do and everything you show up in has been massive. So I think those two things, yeah.

Josh: Confidence. Oh yeah, yeah, confidence as well. Social confidence. Like, the kids met so many people this year that, uh, people that we've wanted to, and we've put in, you know, 10 years of effort to get here, and he's, he's meeting these great people. And so it's like, he doesn't understand that, but he just has been embracing it and sucking that energy. It's great.

Mason: I think it's— I think that's also the, the perfection thing. It's like, I probably had an idea that I need to act or be perfect in this way, in this conversation, or in this interaction. And so realising that, yeah, you can— you don't have to be this perfect figure when you go into an interaction. You can just be more of yourself, I guess.

Craig: And the more you are yourself, the more you're going to connect and, you know, have fun, and people are going to connect with you. And but also, which Tommy kind of said exactly what I was going to say, is like like you probably don't realise it because you're in the middle of it, but you— and I don't mean this sound— I'm not blowing smoke up their asses, but you— like, this is such a fucking awesome incubator for growth and creativity and meeting awesome people. Like, I wish— are you 19 or 20? 20. I wish when I was 20 I got to meet all the people that you're meeting, you know, and, and like just listening to the conversations and being able to ask people questions. And so it's awesome. Like, you're going to learn so much more than someone who's sitting at uni for a year. Yeah.

Tommy: Well, I think even like David Epstein with Range, that book that you recommended, I think that like 97 is a great example of what that is, where it's like by the end of 10 years he'll be the best CEO that a company could have because he'll have the emotional intelligence, the financial understanding. He'll be able to tick all those box— boxes. And I think that's what's exciting too, is that he's leaned into— I think at the beginning you sort of, uh, as sort of leaders, you can shield or whatever, but then you see the benefits in— if we're not seeking perfect within anything, it's a different— and we're not— if we can't tackle this thing right now giving 97 that job and then being able to lead him through that within— like, there's been so many improve— like, such huge amounts of growth in regards to, like, even how we show up from, like, a social media perspective. Like, we used to struggle to get a post up every day, and now it's consistent, scheduled in, very easily defined what success looks like. It used to take him half an hour to work out a caption Yeah. Now he's doing, you know, 6 captions in, you know, 15 minutes. Yeah. You know. Yeah. So, but I think it's also, it's the benefit of that daily thing of showing up and also being able to, if you are tired, being able to understand how you respond. If you're super exhausted and you almost like lose your filter or you lose your ability to fucking have, have a mask. Yes. It becomes a lot clearer what mask it is that we're wearing. So then when we are feeling better, we might actually show up in a different way.

Craig: And it must have been tough for you too at the start too, because there are some things— and this was hard for me in business— where you go, well, I know I can wash this glass at a 10 out of 10, but I've got to give it to him to wash, and it's only going to be a 2 out of 10 because he's never washed a glass, and I'm a fucking expert glass washer. So I'm gonna have to watch him stumble and hand it back to me, and I'm going, oh fuck. You know, so you have to— you start doing things that both of you could have done much quicker and much better. Yeah, but that's the whole white belt, black belt. You go, well, he can't become a black belt unless he first learns how to roll and fall and get punched in the head. And you know, that's— and then eventually you grow this other human that works with you, not for you. So it's now part of the team rather than you're the team and there's this shit kicker. And I think that's, you know, well, you're still a shit kicker, but we love it. Don't get ahead of yourself.

Tommy: There's a, um, there's a book called Cadence by a guy named Pete Williams who's an entrepreneur here in Melbourne, and, uh, he talks about that you've got to make a dollar before you can make 10 bucks, and 10 bucks before you can make 100, and 100 before 1,000. And I think that that's like, even, it's very much how we've— we're trying to do things across the board now. And the exciting thing is that even though we might be in the realm of being able to sell $10,000 jobs, yes, really easily, that's not 97's shtick. But the exciting thing is that in that sort of goal of diversification of revenue, we can say, okay, what are the $100 or $200 transactions or the $1,000 transactions that 97 can own so he can start, you know, yeah, getting that cadence. And so yeah, I think it's— there's so much benefit in having a team and being able to play into strengths and know that like I'm— when I'm not feeling good or I'm shithouse with a deadline, that there's accountability as well.

Craig: And also I think going— and I've started to do this with Melissa, who for those of you who don't know, runs my life and is my business partner. And is way smarter than me, literally, like just going, hey mate, what do you think? What's your idea? Have you got an idea? Because, you know, he won't have as many great ideas at this point as you two, but he'll have ideas and some of them might be great and more will come as he's given more freedom. Like we were sitting, Melissa and I finished a podcast 2 months ago. And she goes, I've got an idea. I go, go. She goes, let's do a YouProject conference. And I go, how would that work? And she goes, uh, I go, great idea. So that went from her idea, not my idea, conversation. Um, within 6 weeks we were promoting it. Um, and it's 670-seat room. And the first night we half filled it like in the first night. And that's not me just putting a bit of mayo on it. It's now about three-quarters full fat mayo nowadays.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. And it's—

Craig: but, but all of that came because I see myself generally as the creative one, the ideas man. But I've kind of gone, well, don't be a fucking idiot. You don't have a monopoly on that. Yeah. And I go, what are your ideas? Because have you got another one? Because that was a fucking belter.

Tommy: It's actually less stressful when you look at things like that. 100%.

Craig: And it's very arrogant to think that you two are the only ones that might have a good idea, or I'm the only one that— and then you open, you give people permission, and whether or not it's a great idea or a terrible idea or in the middle, it's okay.

Josh: But we can also get hung up on that our ideas are the better ideas. Definitely. Which they aren't necessarily.

Tommy: Sometimes. Are you, are you, are you open for ticket sales at all, or have you closed that off? No, we're still going.

Craig: So, uh, but yeah, yeah, so just go to craigharper.net, go into events. So what it is, it's a whole day at, um, it's a whole day at Deakin University in Melbourne, and we've got 10 speakers, and each speaker speaking for— might be 9, it's 9 or 10— speaking for 40 minutes. I'm emceeing, so I'm talking for a whole bunch of 5-minute installments, as well as I'm going to present at the end of the day. And the whole day is $147. So it's pretty cheap.

Josh: Pete Sheppard. Yeah, yeah. I'm very— he's going. Yep.

Craig: Pete Sheppard's going to be there. And speaking— not just Paul, you got to get Paul Taylor on here. Your guys would— you too would love him. Yeah, I know.

Tommy: You got 97. You have some amazing guests.

Craig: Bianca Chatfield, Chatters, um, uh, Steph Prem, who is, uh, Olympic snowboarder and entrepreneur and yoga guru. Mick Hall, who's got a really interesting, fascinating backstory. Had him on the show. Yeah. Who else? I can't remember, but a whole bunch. Yeah. Craig Abbott. I know. What's his name? Fuck, sorry. So Brad from Channel 10, Brad McEwan, and the money guy Jason Cunningham from Channel 10. You should get Brad on here. He would come on here. Brad McEwan, he's like Mike. So he did 25 years of The Sports Guy on Channel 10 now, and he was always a bit deep and philosophical. He used to train at my joint. Good human being, uh, just a fucking nice fella. Storyteller, deep thinker. I'll give you his number. Thank you. I'll hook you up. Good. What day is the, uh, February 23rd, Deakin University? That's right, Burwood. Is that a Saturday? It's a Sunday. Kicks off registration 8:15 onwards. No, 8 8 o'clock. Harps fucking takes the mic at 8:45. Batten down the fucking hatches, hold on, it's going to be a wild ride.

Tommy: Should people bring like a pen and paper? That's why actually, that's one thing 97's gotten very good at. He has a book, he writes down everything he needs to do, he fucking works out his non-negotiables.

Craig: I want to go and steal that book and mess it up and mess up his hair. He's fucking— he's too organized, he's too organized, too young.

Tommy: No. Should people bring a pen and—

Craig: Bring a pen and paper or a tablet or a phone or whatever you want to write in. But, um, sandwich? Bring, uh, we can bring a sandwich. There's, there's cafes are going to be open. Okay, good. So there's a big cafe, coffee. It's a great venue.

Tommy: Before we go, can you— So you were the guy who would normally have paper cups coffee, like you would go to, uh, what's—

Craig: Let's throw Harps under the bus just as we wind up.

Tommy: No, I've, I've, I've been criticized. Goldie Guts actually has really slammed me because I said that the amount of Keep Cups that I've lost, yeah, I'm better off now just having the throwaway cups because of the amount that I, I, um, get rid of. But anyway, you have been known to be a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to the coffee cup thing, but you now have this beautiful purple Oasis.

Craig: I, I call it mauve, but okay, it's violet. It's my Keep Cup. And I did cop a little bit of shit because I had been known to use some, uh, uh, forest destroying, um, cups. Because I've had this for quite a while. I've had this for the best part of a year, haven't lost it. It's good. Um, and it's funny because people know I'm on the KeepCup and a few people have bought me KeepCups for like birthdays and stuff. Now I've got 13, so if you need one, can we do a merch run of the—

Josh: yeah.

Craig: Yeah, the KeepCup. There's a French lady who works where I get my coffee and she goes, "Oh, you brought your KeepCup? You brought your KeepCup?" I say, "Here's my KeepCup for you." So I'm into the KeepCup.

Tommy: What size is that?

Craig: That is a large. That's a large. But let me tell you what, if you're a 7-Eleven-er, which Tommy and I are, if you get the 7-Eleven and you fill it up, then you can't put this with a large. So I just get the standard and it just fits in perfectly. It's a dollar. It's fucking— life gets no better. 7-Eleven coffee. I'm not even sponsored.

Tommy: Surely 7-Eleven 2020, get on board.

Craig: Boys, it's been good. Thank you. Love you guys so much. Love your guts. Love your guts, you little fucker over there. Thank you, mate. And thanks. I feel like I've been super bad posture. Yeah, super fucking— yeah, like a human question mark with fucking hair on top.

Tommy: How many episodes a week are you doing in 2020?

Craig: We're doing 3 a week in 2020. We did last night number 149. Tomorrow I do number 150 with a friend of yours whose name starts with Jules Lund, who apparently doesn't do podcasts anymore but said yes to Harp. So thanks, Jules. Don't change your mind or I'll look like a fuckwit. He won't. And so he's number 150. So all things being equal, the end of next year should be 300-ish. So, but we're certainly not the Daily Talk Show pace. But we're not doing a PhD.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And also you don't do sevens. We do from a range point of view.

Josh: We, do you get that joke or no? Sevens, the 7 out of 10s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was, it was very generous when he said sometimes you get 9s, sometimes you got sevens.

Craig: Well, I don't reckon I do many 9s, so I reckon I'm generally in the fuck. Do you listen to yourself? You wouldn't have to. Time.

Tommy: Sometimes I listen to myself. Even 97 knows that when he's around me, he has the audio quite low when he's playing back snippets because it just makes me cringe. Anyway, uh, happy 2020 everyone. Uh, we'll see you tomorrow. Thank you, Craig Harper.

Craig: Love you, guts. Love you guys. Happy, uh, New Year everybody. Go and be amazing. No pressure, you fuckers. See you guys.

Tommy: See ya.