Anjali Rao On Broadcast & Journalism

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 544. Is that what you said, 944?

Tommy: We're getting it right. In the presence of a great guest, Tangerly Rowell. Yo!

Anjali: Oh, right, it's me.

Josh: How are you with it? So I am terrible at remembering things. So I've got a master of ceremonies gig on the weekend.

Anjali: Yeah.

Josh: Which freaks me out. You've spent a lot of time on stage doing MC stuff, right? You've done a lot of sort of to-camera live broadcast. Yep. Any tips on short-term memory?

Anjali: Absolutely none whatsoever. So whenever I'm emceeing, I'm obviously using my Mac. So the script is all there, but I still haven't recovered from the pregnesia of having my son 10 years ago. So I mean, I can barely remember where I live or my middle name.

Tommy: So when you're like on CNN and stuff, it's all teleprompter. You're not having to really remember.

Anjali: Wouldn't that be nice?

Tommy: It's not.

Anjali: Wouldn't that be lovely? No, it's not. So on CNN, when I was an anchor for 6 years, yeah, 6 years.

Tommy: Nearly forgot that. I know.

Anjali: So close. That was touch and go there. So you have your script on the prompter, but half the time you'll get, you know, word in your ear going, "And so-and-so's dead, go." And all the script disappears except for one word that says blank. And it's like, you don't think I can see that it's blank? Thanks for letting me know. And it's just you and your mind. Until now. But it's amazing what the human brain actually absorbs that you don't think that you've remembered or taken in. And then all of a sudden when you're sort of, you know, panic stations and the adrenaline kicks in, you just, you just go and it's like, I had no idea that I knew that.

Tommy: And so what's a, what's a scenario where that's happened, where you've been interrupted and you've been thrown?

Josh: It's never good news.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Anjali: No, no.

Tommy: And so no, what was a time that you remember?

Anjali: There have been hundreds and hundreds of those scenarios. So, God, because I did all sort of the Asian tsunami and the global financial crisis and Middle East and stuff like that. 9/11? I didn't do 9/11 because I just got home when 9/11 happened and switched on the telly and it was saying that a small light plane had crashed into the World Trade Center. So I was at home at that stage, but the next day when I went in, of course, it was just like, I think that was my very first breaking news that I ever did.

Josh: Wow.

Anjali: Because we had to go wall-to-wall blanket coverage the next day. My very, very first breaking news was 9/11.

Tommy: And so you had the time to digest what had happened, the information.

Anjali: That time I did, yes. But for example, when the Asian tsunami happened and I was anchoring on Sky News in the UK, which is very different to Sky News here, it was just regular Boxing Day. Nothing happens. So everything was on the prompter, and that was sort of like nice and easy. And all of a sudden it's like blank, and it said that 9 people had been killed in a tsunami. And then of course the numbers just kept going and going and going. And by the time I left the studio that night, after 8 hours of doing constant back-to-back interviews with, God, any person that you can possibly imagine, heads of state and all of this, there was something like 360,000 people dead at the end of my shift where it started at 9. Yeah. So, and you just have to go and go and go. But because I'm from Asia, that was actually relatively easy for me because I knew, I knew what was, what was what and what was the lay of the land.

Tommy: So I think you're safe for Saturday night, Josh.

Josh: Yeah, it's Saturday during the day. So it's emceeing, it's a charity event at the Melbourne Museum. It's Friend in Me. They're doing carols by daylight for kids with autism and all that sort of thing. So yeah, so it should be fun. So, but the thing is, you have to remember, like, we can just act like gronks and just talk or whatever and make shit up.

Anjali: Like what?

Josh: Gronks.

Tommy: You ever use that word? You've never used that word?

Anjali: I've never heard of that word. Gronks.

Josh: So our audience are called the Gronk Squad. And so a gronk, how would you describe it, TJ?

Tommy: You know, the gronk that leaves the toilet roll empty on the toilet roll.

Anjali: Oh, yes.

Tommy: Doesn't replace it.

Anjali: Yeah.

Tommy: It's like someone else's problem. 'Not my problem.' That kind of an attitude. But I think we all embody it a little bit, you know, so we all do things that serve ourselves more than others.

Josh: Only paying for sausages with carols is sort of a gronk move.

Tommy: Right, yeah, because they're not excited.

Josh: Because they're trying to raise money.

Tommy: It's a charity. Gronk move, absolute gronk move. I'm gonna carry cash from now on, guys. But we're all trying to be better. We're all trying to be better gronks.

Josh: Right, so we're all gronks.

Anjali: Can I be one?

Josh: Yeah, you're a gronk.

Tommy: Even having to ask that.

Josh: Gronk move.

Anjali: You're a gronk.

Josh: No, but yes, I feel like the presenting of information is different than just being a couple of gronks, right? Potentially talking.

Tommy: Well, I think as a, as an anchor or as a news person, I think that it's like you have the information, like you're an authority of the information, whereas we're kind of lucky because we don't know anything, which is a safe space to be in because we can sometimes know stuff and then other times not. How does that pressure feel like when you're like, I have to actually nail this? I don't want to misrepresent something that is something bad that's happened.

Anjali: Absolutely. And, you know, that's one of the hardest things about doing breaking news is that, you know, until you get sort of somebody on the phone who you can talk to, or, you know, until they start rolling pictures so that you can quickly look at Wikipedia, um, you know, it's just, it's all in your head and you're just thinking, please don't let me, you know, stuff this up in any way or say something that's wrong. So for example, like doing breaking news 101, if you get, you know, um, an information saying that there's been a blast or an explosion, you can't call it a bomb at all until you get absolute confirmation that it is, because it could be somebody's gas cooker or something like that. But that's a common mistake that I've seen plenty of anchors make.

Tommy: I'm sure the word allegedly is quite—

Anjali: Allegedly is good. Reportedly.

Tommy: Reportedly. All those.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Exactly.

Josh: What is purportedly? There's one that's like reportedly.

Anjali: Purportedly.

Josh: Yeah. What is purportedly?

Anjali: It's like reportedly. You just nailed it.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: Yeah. When would you use purportedly? When you're trying to be more pompous? Yes. It sounds— I'd be thrown out of that.

Josh: It's like how I say thus a lot now. You know, purportedly is thus.

Anjali: That's posh.

Josh: Yeah, just trying to be. But coming from a gronk, it's sort of rude. Yeah.

Tommy: Your accent's quite thick. Where did you grow up?

Anjali: I grew up in— so I was born in Hong Kong. Dad was Indian.

Tommy: I knew it. Did you?

Mason: Yeah.

Anjali: No, no, no, no. Gronk, gronk. That's good.

Josh: That's a good snippet.

Anjali: And Mum is from Bendigo in country Victoria.

Tommy: Yeah, the, the English— yeah, twang is very—

Anjali: so yeah, so, um, they met in Hong Kong. Um, Mum was 24 years younger than Dad, and, um, they had always wanted— particularly Dad, Dad was like a very British Indian and wanted any kids that he had to have like a proper classical British education. And so, um, at the age of 11, I was packed off to Hogwarts. I'd never set foot in England in my life. And there I was at this school in sort of the middle of nowhere. It was absolutely beautiful. It was the royal family's weekend retreat in the 15th century.

Tommy: Oh, wow.

Anjali: And it had actual dungeons, which I found myself in twice because I'm a really bad sleepwalker.

Tommy: No way.

Anjali: Yeah. So I found myself twice in the dungeons at about 3 o'clock in the morning. And once you realise that you're in the dungeons, it's like, ah, scary!

Tommy: Oh, God. And stone walls, cold.

Josh: Absolutely.

Anjali: Yeah. And it's pitch black. It's absolutely pitch black down there. And you had to get up. So there were 4 turrets because it was like a castle. And so, and the staircases and were like teeny weeny like that. So you have to, you know, feel your way up these turrets to get back to the dorm.

Tommy: It was just like, stepping into the UK, it's like we don't have anything as old as what it feels like.

Anjali: Well, the school that I went to after that is the oldest school in the world.

Tommy: How old?

Anjali: 527 AD was when it started. And it had been all boys forever, like until since then, until the year that I went was the very first time they took girls. So it was really difficult to get in. I still can't believe I did. But yeah, so they made it really tough. So the ratio of boys to girls was very favorable.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: Does it make you a third— that whole third culture kid? Is that the thing that I suppose it would?

Tommy: What's that mean?

Josh: I don't know. My mate Naysan always talks about it. It's like because he was born in Chicago, grew up in PNG, then something else.

Tommy: Yeah, and he's got an American accent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because he's at Chicago. So what was your accent before you moved to the UK?

Anjali: Um, it was— so there's the Hong Kong, um, accent is sort of quite a— like Hong Kong itself, it's like a mishmash of all sorts of cultures and, um, and ethnicities and stuff like that. So my accent was a bit Aussie from mum, um, and a bit American because, you know, we only had American sitcoms, and, um, and then a bit British, of course. But when I was really little, um, I had I had a really thick Indian accent. Wow.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: From movies?

Anjali: From my father.

Tommy: Oh, from your father.

Anjali: Yeah.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: There's kids now having like Spanish accents from Dora the Explorer. Like young kids have started like they're speaking, you know, in little Spanish twang.

Anjali: Oh my God, that's so cute.

Tommy: It's interesting, the surroundings, how it sort of influences. Do you think living in these different places when you're sort of a young woman, 18, you're thinking, like I've seen a bit already.

Anjali: Yeah, definitely.

Tommy: Because most 18-year-olds haven't even left home.

Anjali: I mean, 96 is still at home, but he came to America as long as he can. Um, yeah, because by then I'd done, you know, lots and lots of travelling and stuff like that. And, um, because Hong Kong's so transient, you know, people are just like coming back and leaving all the time. You're exposed to so many different types of people and so many different types of cultures, and it really does sort of, you know, seep into you in that way. So I felt like I had a lot of, um, world experience, but at the same time I was really quite sheltered. Um, I don't think my mum let me go to like the supermarket down the road until I was about 15.

Tommy: Um, but you're still in the dungeon.

Anjali: Yes, um, but and then yeah, obviously going to boarding school had, you know, all sorts of different influence on me as well.

Josh: You've interviewed some very interesting and high-profile people.

Anjali: Correct.

Josh: How do you, how do you approach it from a questions point of view? Have you got a question to open or to break the ice?

Anjali: It depends. So if I'm doing like a 3-minute interview that's in the news, then if I have time to write them down, well, great. But if I don't, and particularly again, if it's breaking news, you don't have any time at all. Um, it's, it's just like, you know, you're just basically taking what you've heard from that person and going off the back of it, sort of like what you guys do. Um, but when I was doing my talk show, um, on CNN, that was like the sort of celebrity weekly chat show. Oh God, it was the best fun. Um, in those instances, I would dig and dig and dig and dig for information on these people. Um, stuff that, you know, the audience wouldn't have heard of, preferably. Um, And so I'd have, I'd have all that mapped out in my mind because particularly in a talk show format, you want them to forget that the cameras are there, forget that it's a show and that it's just a conversation. And it would happen quite a lot that, um, we became sort of so friendly and on such a level that they would say things, um, and then I would have to pick up and go, right, so what you're talking about is the time when, you know, 'You murdered your mother,' or, you know, keep it light, keep it light and bright. And so, yeah, in those instances, sometimes you just go completely off script. It just, it all depends.

Tommy: I love, you know, watching your showreel where you can see all the amazing people you've interviewed. Some hard questions in there. That, asking hard questions, they're hard for a reason. They're not easy. Yeah, like speaking to Bill Clinton. I had an idea. You asked him a question that was— Yeah. Do you remember exactly what it is? Could you say it? Because I'll butcher it.

Anjali: So I said, are there things in your presidency that you wish you could just unhappen?

Tommy: Which I know the one thing—

Anjali: I knew he was going to get something else.

Tommy: Yeah, exactly. So I'm like—

Josh: Because you hate when I do these questions.

Tommy: Well, it's totally asking— You know it's annoying. It's annoying when a friend does it to you. Yeah. When he knows the answer, but he's just trying to get you to say it.

Anjali: Yeah.

Tommy: When you got the president of the United states or someone who has been, and you're asking him a very targeted question, which is clear what you want him to speak to. Yes. All these mistakes.

Anjali: Yeah. Could go either way.

Tommy: He got out of it.

Anjali: He's a sneaky little dog.

Josh: Sneaky little dog.

Tommy: Because he's like, it's all the things that I didn't do.

Anjali: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Tommy: So it's like, it's the complete opposite.

Anjali: It's like, oh, you know, I wish that I could have, you know, made a difference in Rwanda. Yeah, yeah, mate, that's not what I'm talking about. No, it really is not.

Tommy: And so what do you do in that moment where it hasn't gone the way you wanted it to, what do you do?

Anjali: Um, again, it depends on who it is. So with somebody like Clinton, because I'd met him before, I know that it's like trying to nail custard to a wall, you know, as it is with, with—

Josh: Nails and custard to a wall doesn't work.

Tommy: That does not sound fucking possible.

Josh: You can nail around it, but it's not sticking.

Anjali: Exactly. So it's like, um, but every politician's basically like that. Like, they know exactly—

Josh: They're the custard.

Anjali: Yeah, they're the custard.

Tommy: They've just got the hammer and the nails and they're the custard.

Josh: We've done improv a few times on the show where we've had actors on and we just throw a scene. I think there could be something fun in me being the producer. I'll feed you a line of some breaking news.

Anjali: Oh, God.

Josh: And then Mr. 97 is someone that you're going to interview. I'll give you the context of who he is.

Tommy: Sorry, Mason.

Josh: Here we go.

Anjali: This is like my audition for CNN.

Josh: Literally.

Anjali: This is exactly what I wanted. Really?

Tommy: Yeah.

Anjali: Okay.

Josh: Instagram is shutting down. We have—

Tommy: is it?

Josh: No, this is— so Instagram is shutting down. We have an influencer who runs his business through Instagram to speak to. How would the producer normally communicate that, by the way?

Anjali: Um, you would have communicated it by going, uh, and breaking, Instagram shutting down, go.

Josh: Okay, great. But then how would I set up this 97?

Anjali: Oh, so I, I would sort of go, okay, so we've just got some breaking into us from Reuters.

Josh: You can be Reuters.

Anjali: That Instagram, the obviously the massive social network, is shutting down. So obviously this is going to affect many, many people. And then you would say to me again, on the phone we've got—

Josh: yeah, on the phone, Mr. 97 influencer.

Anjali: Okay, so I understand that in order to pad this out a little bit for us, we've got Mr. 97 on the phone. He is an Instagram influencer. Um, Mr. 97, just, you know, tell us your first reaction to this terrible, terrible news?

Mason: I'm so disheartened. I mean, to be honest, it's, it's what I make my living out of. It's how I put food on the table for my family. So, yeah, I'm distraught. I can't believe it's happening.

Anjali: Yeah. Is this something that you ever could have prepared for?

Mason: No. I mean, everyone talks about the diversification of your audience and all that sort of stuff, but I didn't really think that through. And, and I've sort of stuck to one platform being Instagram because it was so popular.

Anjali: And what do you think that this is going to do for those idiots out there who, you know, are influenced by you?

Tommy: I don't know, I—

Mason: they're going to be so lost, they're going to have no direction. Where are they going to go? It's— yeah, it's unfathomable.

Anjali: It really is. This is just earth-shattering news. Oh my goodness. And if you've just joined us, we've just had breaking news that Instagram is shutting down and possibly 20 people could be affected.

Josh: How much editorialising can you do? Like, so obviously you're framed up his audience as being idiots, which is probably correct.

Tommy: That's 100% true.

Josh: How much of that are you considering in, uh, when do you apply your opinion versus when don't you, right, as an anchor?

Anjali: Yeah, so you basically can't at all. It depends on the network. So for example, something that sort of sees itself as, you know, right straight down the middle like CNN, um, you can't express any sort of opinion or emotion or anything like that. Though I did once cry on air, um, and I didn't get told off for it because everybody in the newsroom was crying. Um, but over here you are sort of, you know, on shows like, you know, The Project or Studio 10 and stuff like that, you know, that I've anchored on, um, you are expected absolutely to just bring all your emotions, um, and, you know, let them out on air, which is actually quite difficult to get used to when you've been told, you know, no editorializing, you must never Well, how do you also transition?

Josh: One of the things with the project specifically is a format that always gives me anxiety as a viewer is the transition from the, you know, deep storey of someone who's died to something a little bit lighter now.

Anjali: Yeah.

Josh: Is there any tricks in how to do that in a tasteful way?

Anjali: Um, yeah, basically just breathe and take a beat, and then you can sort of— doing light and shade is actually quite difficult, and it takes a lot of, um, practise in doing it, sort of to turn the ship around. Surely an ad break is a a good transit, like if you can go to it, it's like a really serious, you know, really, really upsetting one where there's just no way that you can come back from it, um, then you can go to break. But that's not the anchor's decision ever. If you said we're going to a break and the producer hadn't told you, oh my God, lots of trouble. So bad. So bad.

Tommy: And so they're sort of formatting the stories, and so they just put the light and shade in there, you could have run with it.

Anjali: Yeah, but it also depends on how you yourself, um, can work with that. And a lot of the time it is acting, you know. You've got to, um— they can put something in a script, but it's not going to work unless you're actually, um, you know, fully engaged in that. Doing segues, tiny, but it's, it's actually quite difficult to do.

Josh: How, how do you, um like, what are your tells when you're in those states? Like, how do you visually show anxiety? Have you worked out that for you?

Anjali: How I visually show anxiety? Um, I never show anxiety, to my knowledge. But it's, you know, when you're sort of sitting at the anchor desk, because you're never meant to sort of show that you're, um, disrupted in any way. So you've just got to be, you know, super calm and confident with sort of like, you know, swans sometimes, I think. And we've been called that because up here it's like all poise and composure underneath, we're pedalling like buggery to just, you know, keep it going.

Josh: Is there a certain focus then? Like, is it like focus on your breathing, focus on this specific bit right now?

Anjali: Yep, yep, absolutely. All of that. And it's— I don't think that it's anything that anybody can teach you. You just, you know, you either you sink or you float. That's it.

Tommy: You feel like you're running slightly ahead of time. You're seeing what's happening ahead of time. And so that way you can be a bit more in the moment. Like I found from doing radio, I found like it built a muscle of being able to preempt sort of what's going on, what I needed to do. So I felt like I was sort of like lagged behind, but in the present.

Anjali: Yeah.

Tommy: Seeing what was about to happen.

Anjali: Yeah.

Tommy: Live TV, that's, I mean, that's another ball game because you're thinking visually as well.

Anjali: Definitely. Yeah, absolutely. And also with live TV and particularly sort of rolling networks, you often don't get the chance to see your scripts first. So, the first time that you ever see any of it is when it's there and the world is watching. So, that sort of can be a bit daunting sometimes when, you know, massive, great Thai name comes up that you've never seen that's like, "Ugh!" That not phonetic, and they go on till next Tuesday.

Tommy: So, what do you do?

Mason: God.

Tommy: Give it a crack?

Anjali: I found out that if you say it, like, you just look at it and go, but inside, if you say it slowly and Britishly, everybody just buys it. They just believe you.

Josh: No, I appreciate that because I know— I think that it's— it would be the area that would freak me out the most is pronouncing of, of names.

Anjali: Yeah, like the first time I saw Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, it was like, oh my God. I said— I can't remember how I said it, but, um, it was— God, it was not good. But, um, remember when that Icelandic volcano was, um, erupting, and all the flights all over the world a few years ago, um, all got shut down. And it was like, it went on for like a week or something. So everybody on air on every network was calling it the Icelandic volcano, and I was like, no, I'm actually gonna find out how you say this insane word, and I'm going to be known for pronouncing the name of the actual sodding volcano.

Tommy: Okay, so it's the volcano itself— I can't even say volcano— has a name.

Anjali: Yeah, it's got a name. Yeah, so I mean, like, you know, all mountains and stuff have names. So it's Eyjafjallajökull.

Tommy: It's really long.

Anjali: It's like sort of 25 letters and it's all vowels.

Tommy: Can you say it again?

Anjali: Eyjafjallajökull.

Josh: Eyjafjallajökull.

Anjali: Eyjafjallajökull.

Josh: Eyjafjallajökull.

Anjali: Yeah.

Josh: So this is— yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: And so how did you remember? What did you write it out? Phonetically?

Anjali: Yeah, no, my producers were never that kind to write out Flint phonetically. So I just look at the way that it actually was, and I was like, just pretend it's not there and just say it from your head. Um, so then all the weather presenters, when they were on air, would just come up and do their bit and just go, oh, you say it.

Josh: Is there things that you fixate on, say, like words or whatever? Like, I find that I can get into, like, someone's name or whatever. And that almost becomes a bit of a headfuck because I'm so focused on it that I'm bound to get it wrong.

Anjali: Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the time. All the time. I've had so many screw-ups on air. Oh my God.

Josh: It feels like you don't have like a real clear solution, which is—

Anjali: No, I don't.

Josh: Sorry.

Tommy: I mean, what you're describing, like just live, no script, that, that's someone's hell, right? Like most people. Yeah, that's— they couldn't handle that.

Josh: Sweating. You much of a sweater?

Anjali: I am not. I'm not. And it drives my trainer absolutely crazy.

Mason: Yeah, he is.

Anjali: Angie, you are not sweating.

Tommy: Sweating is a weird thing.

Anjali: I'm on the inside.

Tommy: There's some people, like, I used to be a PT, people would sweat from the knees. Like, wouldn't sweat at all. Yeah, their knees would sweat. Bizarre. Really bizarre.

Anjali: Old people.

Tommy: Yeah, very old.

Josh: But just think about, like, were there people you worked with that if you are a big sweater, like, do you just— is it just a makeup sort of thing? Or like, how do you sort of—

Anjali: I can't say that I've ever worked with an anchor who's a big sweater because I think, I think, you know, that's our profession. Can you not do it?

Josh: Oh, so you like sweaters can't be in the game?

Anjali: If you're susceptible to anxiety, you shouldn't be in TV. You just shouldn't be in TV.

Josh: I don't think.

Tommy: No, you're strange.

Anjali: Lots of guests do because they're not used to it.

Tommy: What about celebs? Did you have any, anyone that you remember?

Josh: Sweaty or?

Tommy: Yeah, just someone who's sweaty celebs.

Anjali: Yeah. Wrong question.

Tommy: I know. It's not out of, out of context. We're talking about sweaters.

Anjali: Yeah, let me think. Do I have any sweaty celebs?

Tommy: Bill Clinton?

Anjali: Bill Clinton? No, he's, he's pretty used to being in the public eye.

Josh: Yeah, Rihanna, maybe a little bit.

Anjali: Um, Rihanna was— no, she was like super poised, and God, she was good fun. She was absolutely fantastic. We just got on really, really well. Yeah, I can't think of any sweaters.

Tommy: Is it a, um, what do you— a kiss hug? Or a hug? A handshake?

Anjali: No, that one was a— that one was a proper kiss hug. But she's like an Amazon woman. She's about 7 foot tall.

Tommy: Is she?

Anjali: Yeah.

Mason: Wow.

Anjali: I know, which I had never anticipated. But, um, that was an interesting one actually, because the Chris Brown thing had, um, had happened, and the only person that she'd spoken to publicly about it was Oprah. And that was— I think that was about 2 weeks before I did my chat show with her. And I walked in and her people were just hideous, like they usually are. And so I went up to her minder, handler, or whatever, and I was like, "Oh, hello, I'm Angela." And she was like, "The words Chris and Brown will not be mentioned." That's good. And I just laughed. I was like, "Oh, do shut up. It's only the biggest entertainment storey of the year." And she started going absolutely bonkers. But Rihanna walked in at that moment.

Josh: Did you say, "Do shut up"? "Yah." "Oh, great. That's so good." "And then just like that." "With the accent, it's got real cut-through, I reckon." "Thanks." And, yeah, she didn't look impressed.

Anjali: But then Rihanna walked in, so she, you know, sort of pulled back. And we just got on immediately. Big hug and just— she was fantastic. She was like, "Oh, I love your hair." And it's like, "Oh, yes, this is gonna be good." And so when it came to talking about— the Chris Brown stuff. She brought it up. She did. I didn't. I was going to, but— so she started it, and I just thought, oh yeah, fantastic. Um, because she was talking about her new album, just like, you know, this— it was really difficult because I was going through a really difficult time in my life at Win A1. I wrote this song, and I was like, and obviously you're talking about, you know, what happened with Chris Brown. And she was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And her people were just like, we're getting off topic, we're getting off topic.

Tommy: And so what you— you can obviously be more on topic. You can see it happening.

Anjali: I can see it peripheral vision, but it's like, you're not here. You are not here. It's just me and Rihanna.

Tommy: And so at that point, if they signed over permission for you to use this footage prior to—

Anjali: Anything is, if we get it on camera, it belongs to us.

Tommy: Oh, great.

Anjali: So there's plenty of times that, you know, somebody said something that they wish they hadn't.

Josh: Are they signing release? Because we never get guests to sign releases. And then we've had a moment of like, oh, should we be doing that? You know, if they do that, we should probably start doing that. So you do, like, do you have a handful of releases and you're just getting signatures anytime you have someone on air.

Anjali: That's the producer's job. Yeah, I'll just show up and do my act.

Josh: Yeah. Is that part of the, I guess, the safety around the Rihanna thing going in that like it's all good?

Anjali: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's all of that. But you know, I'm not that I've read the release, but I'm sure it would say basically, you know, this is our show, we own the content, whatever happens on camera is owned by us. And you know, particularly when something's already public record, Yeah, of course you can ask. Yeah, absolutely.

Tommy: Are you a boundary pusher?

Anjali: Yeah, definitely. Absolutely.

Tommy: Yeah, rather ask for forgiveness.

Anjali: Yes, indeed. Exactly.

Tommy: I think it's a good approach. I mean, it's a— it— do you think it has to fit to your character? Have you found other news anchors that aren't that? They won't push it?

Anjali: Um, yeah, there are plenty of them out there because it can be, you know, quite a daunting thing depending on who you're speaking to. Um, and if you don't push you will get your ass kicked.

Tommy: Do you not have the visceral response when you ask the tough question? Because I feel like, oh no, sometimes—

Anjali: oh God, if I've been told off by, um, you know, by a celebrity, which has happened, it's when this hideous— Kevin Spacey.

Tommy: I can imagine him.

Josh: What happened?

Anjali: I mean, we joked on him, really. Yeah, yeah, it's on YouTube. Yeah, so, um, And what happened was— so he's one of those guys that we got on fine off camera. And then as soon as the red light goes on, they're just the, you know, little celebrity and you're the evil journalist sent there to skewer them. So, and he didn't want to talk about anything to do with films. He only wanted to talk about the theater, darling. It's like, God, Kevin, nobody gives a shit.

Josh: And that was a walking away from Hollywood. Was that that interview?

Anjali: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So partway through the interview, I was asking him a question about, um, so he'd given this interview to GQ magazine, I think it was GQ, like years before, and they had asked him about his sexuality, which was always, you know, um, a sort of a topic that, you know, he'd often get asked. And, um, not that I ever would, but he, um, he was given this interview and he's like, okay, I'm gonna clear it up once and for all. Um, so he did to GQ magazine and he said that he was straight and that he had, you know, a female partner, she didn't like the limelight, blah blah. So when the article came out, they completely, um, was like, you know, nudge nudge wink, where you say you are but we know you're not sort of thing. So I was asking him about his reaction to the article, not whether he's gay. And oh my God, he just— it was the weirdest thing. It was so weird. Um, so he thought I was going to ask him whether he was gay. I couldn't care less. Yeah, I don't care. Um, and he goes Um, in the words of Morgan Freeman— the words Morgan Freeman had never been mentioned— um, uh, my darling, I'm surprised that a journalist of your calibre care about such trivialities. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna be sick.

Josh: He's waiting to use that line.

Anjali: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And then, you know, imagine my surprise when 8 years later he comes out. Oh my God. But I was made to go to his trailer and apologise to for a question that I didn't ask.

Josh: Who makes you do that?

Anjali: That was his publicity people.

Josh: And are they like, if you don't apologize, anyone else who we handle, you're not going to have access to?

Anjali: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Is it cutthroat like that? I've been watching the Good Morning Wars here.

Anjali: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Is it like the behind the scenes of TV? Is it drama and all that sort of shit?

Mason: Gotcha.

Anjali: Yeah, absolutely. Um, it was particularly dramatic at Sky in the UK because every single thing there is breaking news. Everything. You're constantly juggling, you know, maybe 5 breaking news stories, and they're all different ones, and you've got to sort of, you know, weave your way around. Um, and God, you'd have— they leave your talkback open, so your earpiece is— they never turn it off. So all you can hear is like 16 people screaming in the control room. And you have to figure out which one you actually need to listen to and which ones are just noise.

Josh: I would melt down.

Anjali: Oh, people were like throwing up in the loos or crying. It was— yeah, it was absolutely— it was full-on, really. It's the most stressful job I ever had.

Josh: Did you ever have a moment where— because I see in the show where like the weather guy's having an affair or whatever, they're talking and I'm like, they've got lapel mics on, like surely the sound department's hearing all of this.

Anjali: Yeah, were they never alone with a microphone?

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: Was there any any time where you had your microphone on and you forgot?

Anjali: I didn't, but I know plenty who have. Yeah, there was a CNN anchor who was— she'd been doing it for years and she was in the bathroom bitching about her sister-in-law who she'd just been on holiday with, and it went out live. And she spent Christmas apologising to the whole family.

Josh: Oh no.

Anjali: I think she got divorced in the end. But yeah, it was not good. But that tells me that she didn't have friends in the control room. Yeah, because they could have easily just turned it off.

Tommy: Oh yeah, you can see the opportunity.

Josh: Do you ever do that to us, Nelly?

Tommy: You're in trouble. For me, I get— I had news pushed to my phone and it just got too much for me, so I turned it off. When it's your job, not turning it off. How do you switch off from something that It's, it's more than a job, right? It's a lifestyle.

Anjali: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, switching off for me has actually always been quite easy, um, which I think comes down to the fact that I can sleep anytime, anywhere, no matter what noise, what light, anything is going on. So I mean, staying awake is my issue. What's your—

Josh: what's the best location you've ever fallen asleep in?

Anjali: Um, probably the dungeons. Um, oh well, I can't stay awake on planes ever. I'm just out like a light. So, you know, that means that sort of when I wake up, I've basically processed everything and I'm ready to just, you know, carry on.

Josh: Yeah.

Anjali: Um, so, but the times that I have really taken it home with me, um, have usually been when I've done breaking news on natural disaster, because when you do that you don't know how many days, weeks, months even it can go on for. And it's just this constant intake of these horrendous, horrendous stories. Um, and weirdly, the worst one for me, I think, was, um, the earthquake in Haiti, um, which I think was about like 2009, 2010. And I'd never been to Haiti. I didn't know anybody from Haiti. And every single day I would cry my eyes out when I got home. It was just so horrendous just seeing this, you know, destitute country. But we also see all the raw footage that comes in, um, that the public doesn't see. Um, and I'm often asked, why do you have to edit? Just, you know, we're not babies, just show us. And it's like, you do not want to see this. You really, really don't. Um, and stuff like that, watching the raw footage of, you know, collapsed buildings, but you can see, you know, like a kid's arm just like hanging out, but there's no way to get to them. And you can see that up. You'd see hands moving like this. People were alive under the rubble, but there was no way that anybody could ever get to them. And stuff like that really stays with you.

Josh: What's your media consumption like now?

Anjali: Um, I do not watch news in this country because it's just so dull. Um, but I do read news.com.

Josh: What makes good news, do you think?

Anjali: Um, just You know, looking outside our borders would be a start. That'd be great. Yeah, if we could get some sort of more international news, that'd be fantastic. But news that involves a bit of everything, you know, a bit of politics, business, showbiz, sport. And that's why, you know, I love reading news.com every day because it's got all of it. And, you know, I am quite partial to the Daily Fail. I love the Daily Fail. It's great.

Josh: So from a network point of view, if you were to listen to or watch watch one station, you had to have it on all the time. Like, I always feel like when I'm overseas in a hotel room, I always put on like CNN or whatever, just because I— it feels like you're connected in some way to things that are going. What would be your channel that you'd have it on if I was overseas? Anywhere? Yeah, in the world.

Anjali: I would probably do, um, I really like NBC, um, because that's just got a bit of everything. And it's entertaining to watch. Um, I find things that are sort of— it might sound weird, but sort of too down the rabbit hole of news, um, are not— that's not really my thing. So when it's just a bit too serious, um, I love the light and shade. And, um, my favourite thing, even as an anchor, was, um, was never the main story. It was always the storeys that you find around the main story.. So like, you know, I particularly love looking at psychological aspects and stuff like that because if I hadn't done journalism at uni, I would have done psychology. So all that sort of peripheral stuff is what I really like. And something like NBC kind of covers that off. Sometimes I watch CNN, but sometimes it's just too, you know, in your face. In the UK, I always watch Sky.

Tommy: Yeah, I don't know if it's our age or if it's the time and the people that I'm consuming on media, but I've never thought more about left or right and more and attaching it to news outlets and media outlets. Yeah, this is left-leaning, this right-leaning. Was this something that was a thought when you were in these big media companies?

Anjali: Sometimes. So CNN was easy in that way because it was straight down the middle, which now is, you know, getting less and less popular because people want to be outraged. And you can only do that really if somebody is, you know, showing polarising views. But when I was working for, you know, Murdoch networks, yeah, I mean, it was definitely— you were encouraged to be more on the right. Yeah, definitely.

Tommy: And so how do you reconcile that? You know, CNN down the middle, I could imagine it's pretty easy to sort of go, yeah, it's a we're in the middle.

Anjali: Yeah.

Tommy: But when you are off to one of those sides.

Josh: But also everyone says they're in the middle, don't they? Like there is that whole—

Tommy: But what I'm saying, the middle is the easy bit because it's like, yeah, 50/50. Yeah, I could take that. Nah, I don't like that. I'm a, you know, so how did you actually reconcile when it's— did you, are you working out where you sway more so being amongst that?

Anjali: Yeah. So the thing about me is that I'm actually fairly apolitical. It's if I was in the UK, I'd always vote Conservative. If I was in the US, I'd always vote Democrat. And here, oh my God, I, I can see why they threaten you with a big fat fine if you don't go, because people just wouldn't go. Yeah, let's just get some decent politicians and I might show up, you know. Um, and I did make that argument once, the first time that I got here, and I didn't vote. Make me. And, um, so they fined me and I wrote this—

Josh: what, 35 bucks is it or something?

Anjali: No, it's more than that, it's like 75 or something like that. Yeah, at the time I didn't have 75 cents, um, so I, I wrote, um, an angry letter, um, and I won. I won my case. Yeah, because it was like, I think they said, yeah, you're kind of right actually.

Josh: What did you say?

Anjali: I was like, um, how dare you fine people for, uh, for not coming out to vote. If you had anybody worth voting for, perhaps we would. Bloody hell, North Korea is laughing at us. And they wrote back, yeah, your fine's been waived. I think I was just too much, too much. I was just too painful. They didn't want to deal with me.

Tommy: Handwritten? Was that digitally wrote it?

Anjali: I handwrote it.

Josh: I handwrote it.

Anjali: I did.

Josh: I feel like that's worth something. How are you with admin? Do you like admin?

Anjali: Do I like admin? Does anybody like admin?

Josh: I think there's a lot of people like there's a certain type that's like, I'm Type A, like I'm a real Type A.

Anjali: I'm always putting it off. Yeah, I'm definitely a procrastinator when it comes to admin.

Josh: Yeah. Do you think that how much of the voting stuff was that the fact of just fucking doing admin versus shit politicians?

Anjali: Yeah, well, it could be that too. Yeah, it could be that too. It's all of it. It's just, I'm just not a fan of it. I know that sounds terrible. And you know, people are gonna yell at me like, oh, it's a democracy, blah, blah, blah. But it's like, if I don't want to vote, then don't make me.

Josh: And so the, um, the Audible series that you're on, right, that is all about being in a conservative radio station, it's called— was it 360?

Anjali: 360.

Josh: 360.

Anjali: Yeah.

Josh: And so you play a character, Michelle.

Anjali: Yes.

Josh: What's the deal with Michelle?

Anjali: Okay, so this is my very first acting gig ever. Um, I've always wanted to act, and, um, so when this came along, it was just like too good. So Michelle is She is a woman of color, British, right? See where I'm going here? Yeah. Um, and she was a journalist, um, in the UK, comes over here and can only— because there's no diversity, which is true, um, all she can get is producing a far right-wing radio show at midnight. Um, and she is the producer of, um, an absolute knob called Campbell Parks, um, played by Mark Humphreys, who is just fantastic. Um, and so it sort of parodies those, you know, right-wing radio shows that, you know, we all know and love. Um, and they decide to— well, Campbell decides that he wants to boost his numbers by putting on a memorial for the Cronulla riots, which I actually did cover in breaking news in real life at Sky. And my co-anchor was from America, and he absolutely— he's such a dick— just insisted on calling it Cronulla. It's the Cronulla riots. It's like, it's not, mate. It's really not. And so anyway, they put this thing on, and it's about how he suddenly becomes incredibly famous. And so they get moved from the crappy slot at midnight till 2 AM to the highly coveted breakfast slot. But then he Campbell's sort of after the Cronulla Riots memorial march, um, is sort of— he's very famous but not in a good way, so he sort of has to leave the country, um, and it's about what happens while he's gone. And, um, it's the funniest thing I've ever heard. I think I'm on— I think I'm on my third or fourth listen all the way through. It's absolutely hilarious.

Josh: It's such an interesting format because it's sort of like a this immersive experience. Like, it really was because I guess Audible, you could easily— like, I'm a nonfiction junkie, very self-helpy and all that sort of thing. And so this is completely like something that's different in that format. What is it like being behind the scenes of creating something like that?

Anjali: Yes. I've never done anything like this before. I mean, I've done radio and stuff like that, but this was totally different because it's all, you know, scripted, obviously. And But you're not in a studio. So we didn't— we weren't sort of, you know, sat for a lot of it in the studio behind a mic. We were like— we have a funeral scene. And so we actually, you know, went to the park around the corner and, you know, Sando there sort of like recording us so that you can get all the ambient sounds. And, you know, if I sort of storm out of the room, I'm actually getting up from the chair and slamming the door and sort of, you know, pounding the desk with my fist.

Josh: Did you lean into that? Is there any moment? Because Dan Illich was working on it. Like, is there any point where you're just like, guys, do we need to be here? Can we just do it in a studio? Or did you enjoy the filming?

Anjali: No, we all loved it. We absolutely loved it. And so, you know, when it's like Michelle gets into an Uber, so I'm actually outside in the street getting into somebody's car.

Josh: Not an Uber. That's where you draw the line.

Anjali: Not an actual Uber. Yeah. Okay. Because there's, I think there's something like 92 or 96 characters. That the guys wrote. And there's this one guy, this British guy, he plays about 12 of them. And I've never laughed so much in my life. He just goes from one accent to the other all around. So he was playing sort of, you know, my Uber driver, a Lebanese Uber driver. There's no accent that he can't do. We were all just absolutely cacking ourselves laughing. So, you know, I'd sort of like get into the Uber and he'd be like, "Michele!" And I'd sort of slam the door. And, you know, say where I was going. So, you know, I need to go to the church, Our Lady of Consolidated Debt. And so he'd— and then he'd sort of like chat to me in this Lebanese accent, but just always, you know, going in between every single one. It was absolutely brilliant. It was so good.

Tommy: For you channelling the experiences you've had, having all these, you know, working in businesses, the politics and shit that's going on.

Josh: Sounds all a bit real, doesn't it?

Anjali: It was completely real. That's how I felt. Yeah.

Tommy: You were thinking, "Oh, this is— I've had this experience," or—

Anjali: Oh my God, completely. But as soon as I read for the role, and my agent thought— he said, "Do you think that you can play this as a British-accented woman of colour who's a journalist? Have you got this, Ange?" I was like, "Yeah, I gotcha." It was— So when I read the role, it was literally scripted for me. It really, really felt like it was. And the guys had no idea. That this was actually my background.

Josh: And so how, like, do they allow you to have the script in front of you? Because I guess it's a different type of format where it's like, it's all that what's going through the speakers.

Tommy: Trackies are acceptable.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, these running shorts would be okay. Or did you actually get, did you get into character? Like, how much of it is actually performing the scene?

Anjali: Oh God, all of it. Yeah, all of it. Yeah, I mean, and the great thing was that that I was the only non-professional actor. The rest of them all knew exactly what they were doing, so they already sort of, you know, got their head around the character and stuff like that. But yeah, you've really got to sort of absorb who you're playing, um, and, you know, sort of believe in it yourself so that other people do. It was proper acting and I loved it. It was great.

Tommy: Um, what's your relationship with nerves? Like, uh, when you're on live TV, is there still nerves?

Anjali: Um, there— I think if there wasn't, that would mean that I didn't care. Um, I think a modicum of nerves is healthy. Um, so I'm often asked, because I MC all over the world, um, um, when I'm about to go on stage, people do often ask me if I'm— yes, are you nervous? Are you nervous? I'm like, nah. Um, it's like, but mate, I don't think I can do this.

Tommy: Just really relevant.

Josh: Have you ever had a moment of panic?

Anjali: God, yes, all the time.

Josh: So what does that look like? Because even, uh, Tommy and I were at the NGV doing Insta stories, very low-level sort of stuff, literally talking to our phones. I was just like, I don't know about my performance. Like, I freaked out at the idea of recording on the phone. How do you get— like, do you verbalise how you're feeling? Do you have to hold it in? How do you make sure that everyone else doesn't freak out?

Anjali: You never let on that you're nervous. You have to be sort of, you know, the voice of confidence, like you know exactly what you're doing and saying. But inside, again, like when it's breaking news and you just think, I don't know anything about this, but then you sort of somehow you just get through it.

Josh: And that's the non-sweater thing that's advanced. If you sweat, dead giveaway.

Anjali: Yeah, dead giveaway.

Tommy: Or I mean, like taking the action solves the nerves problem a lot of the time.

Anjali: Yeah.

Tommy: The hard bit is if you take the action, then it's— then you fumble or— oh God, then you get on that sort of spiral.

Anjali: Yeah.

Tommy: Does that happen? The spiral where you just—

Anjali: can do.

Josh: Yeah.

Anjali: Yeah. There was, um, there was once— so stupid, um, breaking news that I did at Sky in the UK. Like I said, everything over there is breaking news, like even things that just do not warrant it.

Tommy: Puppy on a tree.

Anjali: Yeah, right, exactly. A train had, um, derailed and and no one was injured. Um, and so that was breaking news. Um, and we had to go live with this thing for hours and hours and hours, and there was nothing to say. Like, I was interviewing, you know, some dork from, you know, ilovetrains.com.

Josh: Mr. 97, definitely.

Anjali: And, um, all of a sudden I had a complete and total brain fart. It was just like, oh, I've like nothing to say. I have no words. And so I just threw to weather and the weather person wasn't even there yet. It's like racing to put her mic on. She's like, mm-hmm.

Josh: Dan Harris talks about that, the author of 10% Happier. He's a news anchor and he talks about the moment where he has a complete meltdown. But then you watch it, it never looks as bad as it feels, I think.

Anjali: Yeah, yeah. Um, the worst ones are when you have a laughing fit and you can't.

Tommy: Oh no.

Anjali: Yeah.

Josh: How do you control that?

Mason: Uh, you don't. Yeah, you don't.

Anjali: You just pray for an ad break. Um, so the worst one I had was on Sky, and, um, I was with my wonderful co-anchor Stephen. So, um, we would— we'd been on air for 4 hours. I think it was like from 6 AM to 10, and we were so close to the end. We were only like 10 minutes out or something, and it had been really uneventful. Like, nothing was happening. It was just was super easy that day. And for some reason, I told him a joke in the ad break, and he just lost it. And then when we came back, neither of us could hold it together. And so they— and our producer was like, like, you know, effing and blinding, like, you know, Tourette's. And, um, was like, yeah, get it together. And of course that made it much worse. And, um, so we ended up— we said, you know, 'Ang paragraph, Steve paragraph,' and I would read my paragraph and lose it in the middle and pretend I was having a coughing fit, and Steve would have to pick up in the middle of my paragraph and continue reading. By the time we got to the end of whatever the storey was, um, we were doing one word each and we had our chairs back to back like we couldn't look at each other. And so Murdoch never ever switched off, like he always— he watched everything. Um, every single thing on Sky. And we were absolutely petrified that we were going to get, you know, a call on the red phone. Um, and miraculously that day, um, he wasn't watching, and it was like, oh my God, we were so close to losing our jobs.

Tommy: What's the red phone?

Anjali: Oh, it's like the Bat Phone.

Josh: Um, actually, is there a red phone?

Anjali: There is a red phone.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: Yeah, direct line to Murdoch.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: Can you— is it one way, or can you pick him up and say, Murdoch?

Anjali: I think it's one way. I think it's one way.

Josh: How much are you thinking of audience? Because obviously, like, if you've got audiences in different countries, how much are you thinking about that?

Anjali: Oh, all the time. All the time. And particularly when they are in, you know, different countries and there are sort of cultural sensibilities and that sort of thing, you're absolutely terrified. But so when I was— I've got a 10-year-old son. And when I was about to burst, I was— I think it was on my last day before I went off for maternity leave. And it was, you know, top of the news, top of the hour, like when you're really serious stuff is happening, and it was the latest Afghan death numbers. And I just did the most massive burp right in the middle of talking about these huge death numbers. And it— oh my God, there's nothing you can do. Yeah, but you can't put it back in. And I was like, excuse me, I'm very sorry. And, um, so I still tell off Izzy, my little boy. It's like, you did that to me. Um, Everybody in the newsroom just lost it and we basically had to go to an ad break right off the top story.

Josh: Yeah, it was recovering. Yeah. New media versus old school media. How do you view it as a broadcaster?

Anjali: Well, the thing that mostly sort of sticks out to me about that is that in the days of old media, it used to be really, really pleasantly difficult to get through to any anchor. And now it's, my God, everybody's got an opinion and you're gonna hear about it. Um, and you know, when you're trying to do live news, um, and you have to have your phone by you for obvious reasons, and you know, somebody— you pick up your phone and you see a nasty tweet, it's like, mate, come on, you get up here and do it and try and juggle 50 different topics and, um, doing a 3.5-hour live broadcast, really. But you can't unsee it. Um, and it's, it's actually so nasty now out there, um, because if somebody sends you a mean message, they'll make sure that they tag your show, your network, and all of the other anchors that you work with.

Josh: Use all the hashtags.

Anjali: Yep, for maximum damage.

Tommy: Imagine if they put this effort into something productive for their own career or life.

Anjali: Exactly.

Tommy: It seems like it's a real effort to be a troll.

Anjali: Yeah, yeah, it It must just be sort of so draining being that nasty all the time.

Tommy: It's, yeah, I mean, it's even like email stuff. If you're outside of work hours, it can just trigger the feeling. And so I get it.

Anjali: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: You can't unsee it.

Anjali: No.

Tommy: So how are you? Are you just turning it off? It's a weird one because you almost need to have it on.

Anjali: Yeah, of course you have to.

Mason: Yeah.

Anjali: Because, you know, you never know what. So most of the stuff is really nice, but you don't remember the nice stuff.

Tommy: What about young women wanting to move into journalism? Journalism now? I mean, there's still university courses, degrees in journalism, right? What's the future of it? If they're wanting to do something, they see a career like yours and they think, that's what I want. Is it still there?

Anjali: Yeah. So when, whenever I'm asked by somebody, it's like, you know, I want to do what, what you do. So, you know, I'm going to start taking journalism at uni. I always say, well, my first piece of advice would be don't study journalism. It doesn't matter. Um, anybody can be a journalist with, um, you know, you can be a lawyer or, you know, have a medical degree or whatever. They, they actually want you to have different strings to your bow. Journalism— I mean, when I was doing journalism at uni in London, um, all we learned about was like, you know, what happened with the press in Fleet Street, you know, big wow, who cares. Um, and sort of, it's, it's good getting sort of, you know, practical sort of experience. But, you know, I didn't even get that. Um, so if I was going to uni now, I would take psychology, definitely. And you can still be a journalist because they want you to bring, um, a different side to it. If you understand the news, great, you just have to be a human being, really. Um, but if you have— if you can come at it from a different side, that makes you much, much more valuable. Um, and I think now because because the whole journalism industry is changing so rapidly that it— to even have something else behind you, that if it all falls over, you have, you have another qualification that you can, you know, rely upon.

Tommy: Yeah, I like that. It's a good perspective.

Josh: Amazon with Audible, they're obviously getting into the content game in a big way. How does that affect what you and the people around you are doing from an industry point of view? Does it change anything or are they just, just like another network?

Anjali: I reckon it's just like another network. I mean, they're springing up all over the place and, you know, everybody gets their content now from, you know, so many different sources as well. So, I mean, you know, when I host on Studio 10, we're pulling things from, you know, Women and Mamma Mia and stuff like that. And so it's just another content provider, but, you know, a valuable one.

Josh: Are you listening to any podcasts or?

Anjali: Yeah, Riot Act for the fourth time.

Josh: So that's, I mean, that's another interesting thing. Riot Act is, it fits in this different realm. So you get it on Audible. Did you see it as a podcast or what? How do you describe it?

Anjali: Yeah. So at the beginning I wasn't sure whether it was, I don't think anybody was sure whether it'd be sort of, you know, radio play like in the old days or whether it would be, you know, epistotic podcast. Um, but I think that the way that it, it's sort of turned out is just absolutely perfect for the storey that we're trying to tell. Um, God, it's funny. I know I've said that, but I just, I keep thinking of little quotes and I'll just be sort of, you know, walking along, whatever, and I'll just spontaneously piss myself laughing.

Josh: Was it all written out or was there any improv?

Anjali: Yeah, there was plenty of improv. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Particularly by Dan Illich, as you can expect. Um, so, and Dan plays, um, the boss of the network, Nugget, and he's just— oh, you know, his catchphrase is like, "Ball terror! I want ball terror content!" Bull terror? Bull terror. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Tommy: That's good content.

Anjali: So he was, um— it's good content. Yeah, I know. And I have a line where it's like, "Come on, Campbell, balls won't tear themselves. Um, so yeah, there was, there was plenty of improv. And also by Mark Humphreys as well.

Josh: Yeah. 2019 favourite book?

Anjali: Oh God, um, that would probably have to be, um, what was I reading recently? I can't remember what it's called, but, um, and I'm gonna get my ass kicked for that, but it's, um, by the guys— by the guys who rescued the boys from the Thai cave. Um, you remember that, you know, huge, huge story. So, um, I read it because, um, I had this fantastic MC gig, um, that was 2 weeks in Lisbon followed by 2 weeks in Bangkok followed by 2 weeks in Miami, um, where I was interviewing them on stage. And so now we're like best buddies. And so in order to prepare for that, obviously I had to read the book, and it was just so compelling. It was— I mean, so many things that, that you would never— little details, just like, God, I had no idea about that. So yeah, that was, that was fantastic.

Mason: Against All Odds.

Josh: Against All Odds.

Anjali: Against All Odds.

Tommy: Yeah, not to take away from their story. Did the Elon Musk thing come up?

Anjali: Um, were we allowed to talk about it on, on stage?

Tommy: Yeah.

Anjali: So, um, we were going to, but then we didn't because we just 'Let's not give him any airtime.' Yeah, any, any more airtime. So no, we just kept it straight down to, you know, what happened, how the rescue went.

Josh: Was it covered in the book?

Anjali: Um, it only a tiny bit. Yeah, but because nobody wanted to, you know, give it any more oxygen really.

Josh: So do you think it was like— I guess news can, uh, get the headlines happening and it allows for this, like, a tweet to become the story.

Anjali: Oh God, do you think—

Josh: was that an example of the wrong thing becoming the story?

Anjali: For sure. It was, you know, it was such a red herring. And, um, you know, I think when it, when it all came out and there was sort of like this nasty little playground spat, you know, between, um, between the two of them, it was just like billionaire and some heroes. Yeah, yeah, I know, exactly. It's like Hey, can we just like, you know, bring the focus back around to what's actually happening rather than some sort of, you know, imaginary thing that never will. So, yes, so stupid.

Josh: Do you get good at knowing what's PR rah rah versus what's actual?

Anjali: I think we all knew that was.

Josh: Yeah.

Anjali: I mean, yeah, stating the bleeding obvious.

Tommy: But then what about the people working on the front line in the media and in the news that have to, you know, they're getting— where's the ball tearing stories?

Anjali: Yeah.

Tommy: You need to lead with that.

Anjali: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Tommy: So then how do you Yeah. I always think I read some articles from some journalists and I think, how the fuck can you live with yourself? Yeah. How can you be spinning this bullshit?

Josh: Well, there's a lot around like it seems like sometimes shows are just like reading out random tweets.

Anjali: Yeah.

Josh: Like I've always found that interesting, which is like, you know, especially like I sort of understand when Donald Trump says something outrageous that's news. But there's always— that's the funny thing where you can see in the newsroom they said, guys, we need different opinions. So then it's just randomly like John, who no one gives a fuck about, says he thinks this.

Anjali: Oh, I know. Vox Pops are the lowest form of journalism, but they're our favourite.

Josh: Yeah, we've started many projects with a few good Vox Pops.

Anjali: Oh, wow. Yeah. No.

Josh: What about the relationship between studio and on-the-ground? Do on-the-ground people think studio is scum and vice versa? Is there a little bit of that?

Anjali: No, they don't. In my experience, they don't, because they're, they're two extremely different things. Um, so I did much more in the studio, primarily because I had two shows, you know. One was the news Monday to Friday, air conditioning as well, and that.

Tommy: Yeah.

Anjali: And the other one was my talk show that I travelled around constantly for. So I— but also, my thing has never been sort of, you know, wearing a flap jacket in the trenches. But thank God you know, lots of journalists are totally into that, which is fantastic. You know, including my great friend Hugh Remington, who is in Riot Act and who was my co-anchor at CNN.

Josh: His book is so interesting.

Anjali: Yeah.

Josh: Like, just like growing up, like he was an alcoholic super young and all that. Like, really, really interesting.

Anjali: Yeah, amazing. But he— so he loved all that sort of, you know, getting down in the trenches sort of thing. But I think the journalists that are really good like him can do both. They're as comfortable in the studio as they are out there, um, you know, in amongst it all. Uh, there's plenty of times that I, I have done it, but, um, yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't really sort of my thing. But I think journalists just, they respect what you're good at, like what your, um, what your particular focus is towards. And yeah, we don't tend to sort of—

Josh: and what's that for you, do you think? What is your focus or your sort of main skill?

Anjali: Um, for me it would be, um, interviewing, because— and that's why they gave me my own, um, talk show, was because I just— I'm fascinated by other people. And, um, you know, it used to drive my parents mad when I was growing up, saying, just like, why can't you just love River Phoenix for his movies? Why do you have to know every single thing about him? Um, but that's basically how I made my, my, you know, livelihood, is knowing everything possible about these celebrities that, and I just find it completely fascinating.

Tommy: The dungeon really makes sense now.

Anjali: The dungeon totally makes sense, I know.

Josh: Podcasting into the interview format has sort of gone gangbusters within the space of podcasting. Is there anything that you think podcasters could take from traditional media in the way that they're formatted?

Anjali: I think that like what you guys are doing is just fantastic. You guys have fantastic interviews. You didn't even have questions in front of you.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: Well, we try and like we position it as a conversation. Conversation rather than an interview.

Anjali: Yeah.

Josh: So then it takes a bit of the pressure off.

Tommy: And so you're leading with the, we're curious, we want to know more about you. And so it's like if you actually have those things and some information, yeah, there's a lot that can be explored.

Anjali: Yeah.

Tommy: That isn't just a question 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

Anjali: Yeah, absolutely. And I've always been sort of fascinated by, yeah, you know what, you know, very famous people do, but you don't know who they are as human beings. And for me, that's always been my main thing. I love that.

Josh: How do you crack the shell?

Anjali: Sometimes you don't, and sometimes you just have to admit defeat. So particularly with— I've always found politicians and sort of A-list athletes are like that. They are very, very difficult to crack.

Tommy: And we know custard's inside.

Mason: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: It's all about nailing custard to a wall.

Anjali: Is that the saying? That's my saying.

Josh: I like it.

Tommy: I made it up. I love it.

Josh: Really? Yeah.

Anjali: You can use it, but you have to give me royalties.

Josh: Yeah. Nailing cuffs into the wall.

Tommy: Bring it more Aussie. Shit to a blanket. No, no, that's different. That's when it sticks.

Anjali: That's beautiful.

Tommy: That's the opposite.

Anjali: Oh, shit to a blanket. Yeah, that's really lovely. Shit to a woollen blanket.

Josh: Well, we've been very on brand with the way we've finished this. Let's be honest. So, um, Right Act is the Audible original series.

Anjali: It certainly is.

Josh: Uh, there's a bunch of— how many, uh, It's not episodes. How many?

Anjali: It's episodes. Yeah, 8.

Josh: Yeah. And so, uh, it's great. It's like, I think, 40 minutes or something per one.

Anjali: I was saying 23. Yeah, something like that.

Josh: So they're quite good. Like, it's one of those bite-sized things you can't— like, with normal audiobooks or like on Audible as a platform.

Anjali: Yeah.

Josh: You end up just running, like, you— there's no sense of progress.

Anjali: Yeah.

Josh: But what I like about it is that there is that progress of like, oh yeah, finished.

Anjali: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's like, you know, the promo forward for what's on the next episode. And I mean, God, when you have, you know, characters name like Plugger and Tugger and Stiffy and Fingers and, um, Butt Crack, Nut Sack, you know, who are executives, by the way. Oh, you know, it's, it's just really hard to say no to that sort of thing.

Tommy: I just thought— rhyming names— and that we've got them.

Josh: I just love the idea of like the international execs at Amazon listening, like, being like, the Australians are a weird bunch.

Anjali: Yeah, right. I know.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show. hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address if you want to send us an email. If you like the show, reviews on Apple Podcasts are always appreciated. Otherwise, see you tomorrow, guys.

Tommy: See you guys.