Poster Boy Peter Drew

Peter: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show episode 452.

Tommy: And we've got a special guest in the studio, Peter Drew. Welcome, mate.

Peter: Hey, thanks for having me.

Josh: Do people actually call you Poster Boy?

Peter: It has happened, but it hasn't happened more because of the book. So yeah, no, it does happen.

Josh: Well, so you've just released this book, is it? It's out this month, right?

Peter: Yeah, no, it came out in August.

Josh: August, so end of August. The thing that got my attention straight away is the COVID and the poster that says Aussie. I saw this all around my neighbourhood. So when I saw it straight away, didn't know much about you, but straight away knew the image.

Peter: I have put up a lot of them.

Tommy: Well, these are the posters that you traditionally see music festivals, events getting slapped on the walls. I mean, authors are now starting to do them. I saw that Barefoot Investor had his own sticky poster on.

Peter: And but is he cooking his own glue?

Tommy: He's struggling.

Josh: Is he cooking his own glue though?

Tommy: Can't sell enough books. But you, you're an artist. Is that what you call yourself?

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: And so you've developed these posters that you've slapped. You did a fundraising— not a fundraising. I mean, it's kind of fun that you will have and you're raising money for it to stick 1,000 of these across Australia.

Peter: That's right. Yeah. So the image comes from The Australian National Archive. The man in the poster is Mongar Khan, and he had his photo taken in 1916 for his exemption to the White Australia Policy. And I found the image in the archive along with a bunch of others, made them into posters, did a crowdfunding campaign to stick up 1,000 of them, and I've just been doing it ever since.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, I used to do graffiti and, uh, calls all sorts as a kid, but I never got paid for it. I mean, I wasn't an adult. I didn't, I didn't get to do things like this. I mean, I just see it as you having heaps of fun.

Peter: Well, there's a lot of truth to that. I mean, because I've been doing this for a long time before I started doing it kind of seriously and, and wanting to find meaning in it. And I think that sometimes when you find something that you really love doing, you find an excuse for doing it forever. So what really came first for me was just the joy of sticking stuff up in public space and getting that reaction. And after a while, I found I can't keep doing this for just silly reasons. I need to find something that, uh, you know, will sustain me, keep me doing it for a long time.

Tommy: That's where I stopped. I've got no other reason than I'm just being silly at this point.

Josh: Well, I think there's something interesting because that you, you're then taking an active approach to enter in to complex conversations. Did you feel equipped with that when you, when you started doing it?

Peter: Yeah, because I always, you know, I've always thought a lot about things, but I just, it wasn't always that way with the street art. It sort of started as just, just for fun and yeah, just not taking it seriously, because why would you assume that you could make a life out of sticking stuff up on, on walls? So, but yeah, all my serious thought just sort of went elsewhere and I'd eventually just sort of Yeah, it just gravitated towards the street art.

Josh: So would you be likely at a party before you started this to enter into conversations that sort of political?

Peter: No, no, I mean, okay, I see where you're going because I mean, the— in, in the book I talk about this a lot and I think that's probably what people will— people that know me will find that surprising about the book is that I'm not a political person. I mean, I don't really like— no, that's not true. I mean, I don't like political art. Broadly speaking, because a lot of the time it is telling people how to think. It just comes from a set perspective, which is certain of itself and has a vision for how to change the world. And I don't— I mean, that's propaganda. And I think that what I try to make is art. It should be curious and come from a position of curiosity. So I really think of it as being art disguised as propaganda because people, you know, people want propaganda these days because there's so much sort of anxiety about what's happening to the world. Where are we going? I want some certainty. Somebody give me some certainty. And so, I see my posters as being sort of playing at certainty, but really what an Aussie is, what a real Australian is, these are things that are up for debate. And I think that if someone comes at you saying, this is the way it is, this is where it should be, you should be sceptical.

Tommy: You said this, and it was quoted in an article I was reading, that criticism can be more useful than support in helping clarify your own position.

Peter: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I just— there's so much silly rhetoric on Instagram about don't listen to the haters, you know, like, listen to the haters. No, really listen to them, because even if what they're saying is completely wrong, if they're passionate about it, it will tell you something about the fears that they're going through. So yeah, it does. It really helps clarify things, but you shouldn't sort of just silo your thoughts and block out all dissent. That just makes you weaker in the long term.

Josh: How do you come up with what the messaging is going to be? Does it start with writing down a bunch of things that you're excited about or passionate about and then distilling it into—

Peter: A lot of that, yeah. I mean, I usually just sort of, you know, when something's fascinating, or whether it's a debate or a subject which is just sort of bubbling away, I'll dive into it as much as possible, read and absorb as much, especially the stuff I don't like. Really get into that and go find out why don't I like this, what makes it work, what makes it appealing, what do I agree with. And then I'll just sort of write things down and then things will bubble up. And if I have an idea, I usually stick it up on the wall so then I see it every day. And if it sort of empties itself and doesn't— this is going to sound a bit silly, but I mean, if it empties itself and sort of it doesn't have any sort of energy after a while, then it's not an idea worth pursuing. Because you get tonnes of ideas and sometimes they're just junk, you know, but some things just sort of hum and they stay that way for a long time and go, there's something there, there's like a trick to it which doesn't exhaust itself.

Tommy: Does that— is that a warning sign or an indicator of something that will be a good idea that will travel?

Peter: Yeah, no, I think so, because it has a life. I mean, uh, art is sort of this magical stuff that sort of Captures life and makes it hang on the wall. So if it sort of holds it, and I mean, because, you know, paintings that are hundreds of years old, they still hum. And so, uh, you've got to just find those little nuggets. And, uh, yeah, and it's just, it's sort of more of a process of being involved and just paying attention, and the stuff just pops up.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, doing art is interesting, and you talk specifically around the monetization stuff. There's a whole bit on money. One thing that we can relate to is, uh, you do video production stuff as a, as a way to fund, uh, your art. And for us, like, uh, we do video production on the side to make, uh, the Daily Talk Show happen. Is there ever a goal to say, okay, I want to get out of the video stuff, or is it always going to be part of the equation?

Peter: I don't know. I mean, I love that too, um, and I sort of go into that in the book because I always thought, oh, it would be great to just live off the stuff that I love. But I do love making videos as well. But it's sort of, it's nice having that separation because I can make videos for people without it needing to be my voice. You know, I can, if the client comes back and say, we want this terrible song and we want these changes, I can go, I can just smile and say, yeah, that's because it's your video. It's not, doesn't need to sort of represent who I am. Um, so having that separation is good. And at the same time, not needing to sort of squeeze a buck out of Monga Khan and these things that I care about, I, I think that would corrupt that in some way. So I, I always thought that's silly, you should be able to, able to sort of, um, put everything together, but I'm actually quite comfortable with that separation.

Tommy: What if you're a I mean, a lot of things happen organically for artists or people that then sometimes can convert into lots of money, which then is seeming like you've won the jackpot because you do the thing you love and you get paid a lot of money to do it. And I think you're right, where you start injecting the conversation of money into the thing, it can start to slowly die— dilute it. Have you found that, I guess, the momentum of the, the street art that you've been doing and what you just see is art for the, for the best part. Um, have you seen that sort of shift in your mind thinking, oh, maybe I can— yeah, maybe I've convinced myself now that this can be a real thing and I've— and other people are starting to see it?

Peter: Yeah, no, I mean, I get what you're saying. I've never— I'm just good at spending money. So I mean, when, when the projects make money, you immediately come up with ways to go, all right, well, I can do this other big extravagant thing and that will add to it and and the money you make from art very quickly disappears when you think that way. But, um, but I think it can be a trap if you do something which is, uh, so popular that, that it brings in so much money that you're then— you kind of— you can possibly get trapped into then fulfilling the audience and then they're leading rather than you leading. Um, whereas I don't know, I think, yeah, when lots of money comes into it, it must sort of make that decision more difficult.

Tommy: I could imagine. What I read where you were talking about the adventure, the going to the city, it's late at night. Can you— because I love that shit. I've done that before. I reckon Josh will get a real buzz out of it.

Josh: Yeah, I don't leave the house after 9, so this is exciting.

Tommy: But just run us through, say, a time where you've gone to the city or you've gone on a bit of a mission to put up Well, I do it less now just because, I don't know, I just have less of a need to.

Peter: Like, I think especially when I was young, it was just this rebellious thing of— you get a real buzz out of, out of doing that. But I used to paint rollers, and, uh, the right— it's called roller because you use a big paint pole, a big sort of aluminium extended pole with a paint roller on the— on it, and then buckets of paint, and you write your name or whatever you want on the side of buildings. The best way to do that is to get into a building, abandoned or otherwise, and get onto the roof and then lean over the top edge and then paint on the outside wall. And you can— I did a couple of really big ones in Adelaide, and it was a huge mission. It sort of took planning to figure out how do I get into this building. It's better if it's abandoned. And the one— my favourite one I ever did, I found a way to climb up on the second floor but I couldn't sort of— then I had to carry up the paint pole and the paint. And so I had climbed up with a string attached to my ankle and then pulled up the string, and then the string—

Josh: not rope, string.

Peter: Well, no, the string's attached to rope, and then that can hold the heavy stuff. And then yanked up these cans of paint and the paint pole, which were all tied together sort of in sequence, and then got those up, and then I could get up to the roof. And then once you're up there, you're pretty much safe. Because no one's looking up in the middle of the night. And then you can, yeah, spend hours painting this thing. So it was fun.

Josh: We were filming a guy who revealed that he used to do a bunch of graffiti, and I started asking him about what his tag was, and Tommy schooled me on the way back. Man, of course he's not going to tell you his tag.

Tommy: I don't think he— Josh didn't gauge the pushback he was giving.

Josh: I was like, what is it?

Peter: Like, what is it?

Tommy: You know what I'm talking about?

Josh: I was trying to understand.

Tommy: But you're in an interesting position where people know you. You're saying, hey, that's me who does that.

Peter: Yeah, no, it's, it's weird. Um, and it's, it's gotten weirder and weirder the longer I've done it. I mean, look, back in the, the day, I found these photos in the State Archive of criminals in South Australia, and I stuck them up, and I thought, this is— people are going to love this because they're old photographs and they look terrific. Um, they were sort of grisly looking people, and— but some of them, you know, handsome criminals as well, and You know, the sort of people you go, wow, I wonder what it's like to be them. Sucked them up all around Adelaide. And the council who sort of knew me, they said, they called me up and said, Peter, you've done these, right? I said, well, yeah. And they said, well, we have to clean them off. Like, it's our responsibility. It's in our charter or whatever.

Josh: Such a civil conversation. Peter!

Peter: No, honestly.

Josh: We have to clean this up. All right. What do you say back to that?

Peter: They, what they were calling for is they, they didn't want to clean them up, but they had a responsibility to do it. So they said, look, Peter, if you promise to go to the property owners and, and ask permission for what you've already done, then we can win. Then we don't have to clean them off. You see, it's like if— and they knew that I wasn't going to do that because it was ridiculous. Um, but because they'd asked, then they could sort of forego their responsibility. So you have to play these stupid bureaucratic game sometimes.

Tommy: So, and when, when does the law come into it?

Peter: At that point, it's— the law comes into it when I get caught doing it. I mean, there's no graffiti task force trying to chase down anyone. That's why the whole sort of, um, the whole sort of Banksy thing is kind of— it's, it's great, like, you know, that he's anonymous and that's sort of what makes him interesting. But at the same time, no one really cares. The police have got real problems, um, and especially with what I do, they're just posters, they come down in the weather eventually. So, no one's— But if the cops catch me doing it, then I get fined. And that has happened a few times. But otherwise, there's no real risk on my part.

Tommy: We'll talk about cost of different fines and why they cost certain amounts. $317 for dumping litter on a train track. What's the fine for putting up a poster in state of Victoria?

Peter: It depends. I've never been caught in Victoria, so I don't know.

Tommy: Where you've been caught is the better question.

Josh: So, South Australia. Have you been caught in South Australia?

Peter: Yeah, I got caught in South Australia and in Canberra and in New South Wales.

Tommy: Mr97, can you look it up, see if it comes up in Victoria? Be curious to know, just in case we want to branch out and, um, Daily Talk Show want a nice sticker.

Josh: I mean, I'm not comparing myself to you, but I did do a sticker bomb the other day of the Daily Talk Show.

Peter: You can't get caught putting up stickers.

Josh: Well, yeah, I've never, um, like, it felt very weird, but I was just like, we're getting people doing it. We had people in South Africa, all over the place. Putting the Daily Talk Show sticker. I'm like, oh, why should I— should probably do the, the same thing. Are there certain no-go zones, places that you won't stick something?

Peter: Yeah, well, I mean, you play it by ear and you just sort of, sort of, you tune up your eye to seeing where things work in the landscape. Because I walk around and I'm— I'm do it all the time, even when I don't have posters on me, just looking for spots like where you can get to and where you can stick stick something. But, um, yeah, and but you just learn to play it by ear. I mean, there's places where there are other stickers or tags, and obviously, uh, you can go for it. But it's spots that are ugly and you know it's not really going to upset anyone. I don't really do sort of residential homes or places of worship or small businesses, at least not, you know, like sometimes they will have a side wall. You just sort of sometimes you can ask with the posters and It's, it's weird, like more often than not people go, oh yeah, like if I'm just asking for some side spot. So, um, yeah.

Tommy: What's the criticism you've received from putting up these posters that have, that has been your biggest teachers in terms of what you think about this stuff?

Peter: Yeah, because I mean, the, you, you do get the confrontations which are just almost meaningless, but even those are interesting. Like the latest one, uh, was, it was in Sydney in Mossman. It was a construction site that was covered in posters. Oh, this is an easy spot, I'll chuck up a poster here. And the site manager came up and he just got right in my face and said, get out of here, um, or I'm going to shove these posters up your ass. That's exactly what he said. Um, but he was really angry. And I sort of, uh, you know, it was just one of those weird things when he was sort of getting angry at me, but at the same time you could see that he was simultaneously ashamed of what he was doing because there was no need for it. I was just— I was already leaving and he was sort of pissed off. So I mean, it's— I just think every confrontation you learn stuff because it's intense, you know. And confrontations online, you can't see the person, and it's just— it could be a bot, you know, like it could be nothing that you're getting angry about. But, um, but in the book, I sort of— I detail— I try to give it an even spread because I've bumped into all kinds of different people. And there are political pathologies on all throughout politics. It's not just your stereotypical racist old white guy. I mean, they're certainly out there, but there are plenty of other ways in which people use politics to sort of satisfy a sort of a personal emotional need, and that's not really helpful for politics, and it's, it's not really helpful for them either, I think, personally.

Josh: What's been an interesting conversation that you've had?

Peter: Well, I mean I mean, the most common conversation I have is like, it's someone come up and they're a little bit sort of defensive or unsure about what I'm doing because like, here's this photo of this guy who doesn't look like a typical Aussie. I mean, that's why I chose him. And then I talk to people about the White Australia policy and who Monga Khan was, and then people sort of know something about the cameleers. I mean, Monga Khan wasn't a cameleer, he was a hawker, but people sort of recognise that Australian history had these interesting moments that people would want to sort of identify with, or that they find, yeah, interesting and sort of non-typical. And as soon as you sort of have that conversation, it becomes something that people aren't afraid of anymore. And yeah, that happens all the time, that I'll be speaking to someone and they're not sure, but then we have a chat and they go, oh yeah, the Kameliers.. And then they're okay with it. And that's quite common.

Tommy: The hawker, I've seen signs on a door, no hawkers. I didn't know what, I just thought it was someone who came around and handed out flyers or, you know, like no junk mail. Hawker is a—

Peter: It just means seller, basically. I mean, someone who sells hawking products. But a hawker, monga khan, was a— So, he would have had a horse and cart. And all his wares, like a little travelling general store basically. Yeah, would go around and selling stuff.

Tommy: Mate, I hope a general store knocks on the door here when we're hungry, just got a bunch of things we need.

Josh: That'd be fine. You, you mentioned in the book as well about the original video that you did, and you mentioned the camels stuff, and you had to correct part of what you'd said. Has that been a learning process of realising when you put yourself out there, sometimes you might take a misstep?

Peter: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, uh, the mistake that I made was that in South Australia, uh, hawkers around that time did use camels, whereas in Victoria they use horses. I didn't know that. I quickly found out.

Josh: You fucked up.

Peter: Fucked up, yeah.

Josh: Um, I mean, in the grand scheme— I mean, the thing is, the grand scheme of things, it doesn't seem like much of a fuck-up. But I guess when you put a strong message and you, uh, and it does have that political element people are holding you to a higher standard, maybe?

Peter: Yeah, and I think the thing you ultimately learn from that is that you can't ever get it right. Because, I mean, he— Mongol Khan was born in India, and the political situation in India and the geopolitical situation over there is so complicated and changing. And then you bring 100 years of history into it, you can't really ever get it completely right. So you've got to go into a project like that or anything political with a sense of, I'm in it to learn as well, I don't have all the answers, so I will be corrected. If that's your attitude from the start, then you can, uh, change accordingly.

Josh: So you make your own glue? Yeah, yeah. No, how do you make glue? It's a good question.

Peter: Or no, do you know how to make glue?

Tommy: Yeah, no, not at all.

Peter: How?

Josh: It's gonna be something funny, is it?

Tommy: Some kind of plant? Maybe some kind of plant extract.

Josh: I think in the book he said flour. You add flour?

Peter: No, you have to buy big bags of flour from supermarket and then cook it up on the stove. So, I usually stay in hostels because they have kitchens and big pots. And yeah, I inevitably get the question or people like to say, "Oh, that's a lot of porridge." And I'm just like, I've just heard it so many times. And what else do you add, or is it that? That's it. You just cook it and then all this sort of the gluten in the flour sort of releases. All of a sudden it just becomes sticky, and I can go through 50— I can go for about 30 litres of glue in a day if I'm really going for it.

Josh: Is that like a standard, like a PVA glue?

Peter: No, no. So it's, it is just the flour and water. Like, there's no, uh, no chemicals, I guess. No. And it's, it's much easier to use than a PVA glue. It sort of It's super strong.

Josh: Why aren't we using— why don't more people make their own glue?

Tommy: Goes rotten, does it?

Peter: It does, yeah. I mean, uh, the Clag—

Josh: is that what Clag is? Yeah, the Clag as a kid.

Peter: It's what, it's what, uh, you use to make, uh, like papier-mâché or something like that. But the guys that stick up band posters, they get the stuff imported from Europe, which is made from potato starch. So it's the same stuff, like it's really a vegetable product, but theirs has preservatives in it so it doesn't go off. But it's essentially the same thing.

Tommy: I've been walking down the street past one of those just freshly done, and I'm just stepping through that stuff.

Josh: Have you had that?

Tommy: I know, yeah, it's just like the spray off, you know, they're just painting, slapping it on.

Josh: What's the deal? Permission-wise for them, all those band posters, like, because we're even thinking of doing like the Daily Talk Show, like paying someone to go and do the posters. You talk, telling your storey makes me feel like make our own glue, do it ourselves.

Peter: I mean, that's, that's what I got sucked into with this whole thing, is that you can just do it yourself and the scale of your project is completely up to your will. Like, if you just go, right, I'm going to put months into this thing, I'm going to stick up thousands of posters all over the country, you can do that. And it's— no one's gonna— well, people will try to stop you, but you will get away.

Josh: So are they paying someone though? Are they paying that building to put them on, or—

Peter: I think sometimes they are, and then a lot of the time they just— they'll see a spot and then try it out. I mean, yeah, the guys that stick up posters are They're dodgy dudes, like, in the nicest possible way. They're out there sort of finding spots and just seeing what works.

Tommy: But someone's paying them to do that.

Josh: It feels very official, like, in regards to, like, seeing them do it doesn't look official.

Tommy: Well, the guy double parks around here, like, fully puts his van out and you see them out just doing it. So they're not legally allowed to do it?

Peter: Sometimes. I mean, a lot of the spots they are.

Tommy: Train bridge, underneath a train bridge.

Peter: But you'll see them do like hoardings and construction sites and just abandoned buildings. And a lot of the times they just give it a go and see if they— well, I mean, I assume because they're the same spots that I— and they're not sort of, uh, because you see the way they do it, they'll— a few posters will pop up and they'll wait a little while and then they'll do, you know, a few dozen. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I sincerely doubt they're asking permission every time.

Tommy: It's, uh, if you haven't been involved in the graffiti landscape Yeah, you wouldn't be aware of— not you, but Josh, I'm talking about you, Josh. You're not aware of the subculture and the things that come along with that. Like, there's rules. And so surfing or something, like skating has it, surfing has it, a lot of sporting things have it. But graffiti, which it seems unusual, but you know, there's like train yards that are owned by a certain group. I mean, they don't own it, bloody Metro trains own it. But then there's like, if you, you know, if you if you put posters or if you put a tag up on someone else's, it's a no-no. What, what, is there a subculture that has similar rules around it?

Peter: No, absolutely. I mean, it's like, you, you're right to, you know, parallels of surfing or skating. There are these subcultures that are territorial, and it's like a— you think about it, it's always— they're pretty male-dominated subcultures in a lot of ways, and it's like a, um, a sort of a surrogate sort of way of getting respect. It's always about respect, you know. That's the thing that guys want in subcultures. That's the currency, is respect. And it's from other men, especially more established men within that subculture. And then everything— everyone else is excluded. So the sort of people who are attracted to that are people who feel slightly disenfranchised from the larger world and the respect that they get from, men in, you know, in, in the wider world, I think. I mean, that's, that's definitely sort of my own experience going into it, is that sort of some people, especially young men, need like a surrogate, uh, brotherhood, uh, and, and sort of a game which you can play within that in order to get respect. And it's usually because they have sort of tried to get that in the wider world and it's somehow been denied for some reason.

Tommy: Yeah, it's a weird thing. Like, I had some friends that were quite big graffiti artists, well known, but it's almost like the equivalent now of building up your social media following. Like, all eyeballs are on you. Yeah. So there was all eyeballs on this person's graffiti that was absolutely everywhere. It's, it's really, really bizarre.

Josh: Well, you're even talking, Peter, in the book about, uh, when you worked in kitchens and how the you weren't necessarily feeling connected with males outside or had those dude friends. Is that what the experience was for you doing the— this art? Do you actually have a tribe of people or is it a solo operation?

Peter: Well, I mean, these days I'm on very much on my own in this way. I like it. But I, I mean, what I was saying before about graffiti and subcultures, I sort of sympathise with that because I think that's the thing that a lot of young guys especially go through is just feeling— looking at the world and going, that's not for me. Like, just that's some gut feeling of just, I don't want— I don't see myself in the world. I don't see myself taking the world seriously or myself seriously. I want an alternative, and I, I want to know how it works. I want to know that if I'm, in my case, working in the kitchen, if I do my job, then I'll get respect, and it's— and it's foolproof. There's no I'm not going to get cheated out of it. It's just a fair exchange. And I sort of, I don't know, I think that's, it's, I think that's a super interesting thing of why men are sort of, young men especially, attracted to these alternate sort of ways of getting respect in the world.

Josh: Is that what sport is? Is sport just a version of that?

Peter: What is it? I mean, sport, it is a game. It is, it's like a, um, it's like a simulation for the rest of the world in some ways, and that you sort of There are these rules, you play by these rules and you will get respect even if you lose in the game, if you sort of play honorably. And it's, yeah, it's like training wheels for real life. And I think that, yeah, a lot of people in the graffiti world, they'll go into it, they'll get totally addicted to it because it's just this game that you can totally buy into. But eventually you sort of graduate from that, and then you can apply those— what you've learned, like that system of respect and, uh, being honourable within the rules. It applies to the wider world as well.

Tommy: So some of these subcultures are life-saving for people because they haven't found their place, and it's finding purpose.

Josh: Yeah, all those things. Uh, downstairs in our garage, I've been pushing the guys to set up a screen printing facility. We got our hoodies done through an external company, but I like the idea of being able to do some form of merch, uh, posters. Your screen print, is it called screen printing?

Peter: Screen printing, yeah. And I, I'd recommend, I mean, it is super addictive being able to make anything. And what I love about screen printing is you can make it en masse. Like, it's, it's once you realize, oh, I get this system I can make thousands of these, whether it's t-shirts or bags or, or posters.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: And, uh, that's a great feeling that it's— there's just no limit, uh, other than your own sort of will. Um, yeah, I think that's a very empowering thing.

Josh: How do we make the plate? The pla— you know, the plastic bit, the one that's like the— what I'm not sure on is I get the— I was watching videos of you doing it and you sort of place it down and you get the the ink or the paint or whatever it is, but those plastic bits, like the actual cutout, the stencil thing, how do we make that?

Peter: It's slightly more complicated. I've got a video on my website how to do the Monga Khan one, and it's not, it's not too bad. Look, you have to use this stuff called photo emulsion. So you have a frame and there's a mesh across the frame, and then you have a negative of your image and you put that on the frame, and then you hit the— you put— cover the mesh with photo emulsion. And what that does is it reacts to UV light and it sets on UV light. But if you put an image in front of the light, it protects that part of the mesh. And so then you can wash out where the image was. So everything where the light touches hardens, and so you have this hole essentially where the paint can go through where the image was. And that's— it's really pretty simple.

Josh: What's the cost in that, do you reckon?

Peter: Um, well, it's like the setup cost is, uh, it can be expensive because you have to get the, the, the—

Josh: it's—

Peter: if you were seriously thinking of doing it, the way to do it is—

Tommy: he's not—

Josh: no, I am.

Tommy: Entertain him.

Josh: I want to do the post— I think that I'm not confident yet doing like expensive hoodies and stuff, but the idea of doing posters— because of what I've been thinking—

Tommy: to do some work experience at While You Sleep where they do this. And I've watched Dion do the stencil and do the light exchange in a special room with a vacuum cleaner going. It's pretty serious.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Like it sucks it in.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: But just imagine if, 'cause I was thinking about, okay, talking to your point of, you know, these young kids want some purpose. They're not getting paid normally. If we were to find young people who wanna do posters, who understand the process of where you can put them.

Peter: Set up a sweatshop.

Josh: No, but they're not in the garage, they're out and about putting them up because they'll know the scene.

Tommy: They're doing the criminal activity.

Josh: We know that someone's like—

Peter: All the risk is over there.

Josh: Yeah. If someone's doing Collingwood train— If we find the people who sort of look after Collingwood train station in regards to graffiti and stuff, and we say, hey, we'll give you $10 a poster. I mean, I don't know the finance, like, how much would it cost us to make the posters each? I know it's getting very technical.

Peter: No, it's very cheap and it's sort of economies of scale. So, if you're doing thousands, they get cheaper and cheaper. But if you really wanted to do it, the way to do it would be to get somebody else to make the screen for you, and then the actual part of pulling the paint over the, the t-shirt or the hoodie or the poster is very, very simple.

Josh: Okay.

Peter: And, um, yeah, and, and super cheap.

Tommy: I find these things are— you really need to be into them. You really need to have a keen interest. I guess your interest is there, but then it has to see you through doing the action of buying all the stuff and actually setting it up. And there's always all the pain points of fucking a bunch of them.

Josh: And then, yeah, but Peter, you would— there would have been a time where you got all that stuff. Like, what was the— do you remember when you first bought your, like, um, screen printer and how many? Like, like, I was thinking, um, like a 4, so we can— I can do 4 and swivel or whatever, something like a carousel. Yeah.

Peter: Um, I never had one of those, though friends did, but I started at a shared studio. So there was about 20 artists and, uh, shared equipment for screen printing, which was perfect. And I didn't even know that I was going to get into screen printing when I moved into the studio. I'd just gotten back from overseas and I just wanted to reconnect, so I got a shared space at a studio called Tooth and Nail in the CBD in Adelaide. They had screen printing equipment, and so I thought, oh yeah, I'll give screen printing a go. And then right After then I had the idea for Real Australians Say Welcome. I thought, you know what, I'll do 1,000 posters and that will sort of kick things off. And so if it wasn't for— it was really, um, serendipity in some ways.

Josh: Was it the craft though? Was that part of it? Like, for a lot of young people, they get into making films and then they're like, oh, what can I make a film about? Was it that? Was that the, the path for you?

Peter: It's— I mean, what really the sort of the pinpoint— like, I mean, my posters are actually very simple to make. Like, you can— a lot of artists do sort of get sucked into the craft, and, and it's— that's kind of a trap in some ways as well, because, uh, it's, it's infinite how complex you want to make prints. But what I thought was great about screen printing was the, the ability to just do thousands of them. Um, and I sort of thought, well, that's— let's not make it too complicated. Um, but what really attracted me to it was the street. I mean, that aspect of the craft of putting the posters up on the street and going, how can I get a poster up there? Because that is going to make people— because it tells a story. Like, a poster on the street on a wall, it's just a poster for a band or whatever. But a poster 3 storeys up on a ledge, that's a storey of a person going up there. And why did that person need to do that? Um, that's more interesting. That, that's part of the craft as well. That's, that's the the part which I, uh, will always, uh, hang my hat on.

Josh: Do you think it's also easier based on it looks like art and you're saying a message versus the difference between, say, a logo? So if we did the Daily Talk Show logo, it looks a little bit more commercial. Do you think there is a distinction?

Peter: Yeah, definitely. That's what I was saying sort of at the start about art, whether it empties itself or not, because it— if it's a sign it sort of empties itself. You read the sign and go, that's what it means, there's nothing else there. Whereas if you have, hopefully, an artwork, it should have something about it that, that hums, you know, it sort of— there's this value there which doesn't exhaust itself, and it just pulls you in, and you are applying your imagination to it. Like the poster of Monga Khan, you look at him and go, he's an Aussie, he's got a big mustache, wearing a turban. Why does he look so heroic? It looks like it was taken a long time ago. It sort of, it pulls you into it. And, um, yeah, I think that's— I mean, it's very difficult to say what is art, but it's got something to do with that sort of, uh, pulling the audience in.

Tommy: For any of, uh, creative endeavors, timing plays a big part. For you and what you've been creating, do you think timing has been Yeah, absolutely.

Peter: Well, because I mean, the first big project I did was Real Australians Say Welcome, and that came out in 2015.

Tommy: My wife shared it on an Instagram account. I just saw her and she's like, oh, I know that, I shared this. And then she saw it in 2015.

Peter: Yeah. And it's easy to forget, like, just how things felt at different times. But 2015 and 2016 were years of this sort of xenophobic sort of unease. And especially the, the next year after the, the Lindt Cafe siege. But, but even in 2015, there was just sort of this feeling of xenophobia coming up. I mean, Pauline Hanson was sort of— she disappeared for like a decade, and then all of a sudden she was back.

Tommy: Do we know where she went?

Josh: She went to jail for a little bit, didn't she? I think she made like a few months. I think she did. Did she? Is that true?

Tommy: I feel like—

Peter: I don't know.

Josh: Can you look it up? I'm pretty sure she did, uh, jail stint. There was some form of taxing years ago. Really? Yeah, yeah, I'm sure of it. Well, we'll find out. That's not confirmed, everyone, until Mr. 97.

Tommy: There was the slogan of turn the boats around and all of that.

Peter: Exactly, it was just— but I mean, your question to timing, there was just this feeling at the time. And yeah, that's how I come up with projects, is I sort of try to find, like, gauge the zeitgeist, you know, the feeling overall, and what's the thing that's going to help collect people's attention and push in the direction that they want to go.

Tommy: Or where is it already that people just are naturally going to and aren't sort of catching on?

Peter: Well, yeah, it's a difficult thing to describe because it gets super abstract, but it's sort of, it's like people's enthusiasms sort of gather well, anxieties, they sort of gather collectively, and then you can sort of come out with a thing that helps prick that bubble and people go, oh, that's the thing we wanted. We wanted somebody to say, that's— let's gather around that. And that's sort of what politicians do, it's what art does in some ways. So yeah, that's what I— the way I was thinking about Real Australians Say Welcome is that I think that, yeah, people were frustrated when national identity gets hijacked by a collection of people who are operating on fear being their, like, their organising principle. Because I think that Australians, uh, we'd love to regard ourselves as being big-hearted. I think that's one of our defining characteristics. And then when these people come along who are sort of close-minded and unwelcoming, the rest of us feel like, well, no, you don't get to speak for us. We are bigger and stronger than that. So, Real Australians Say Welcome was a way of trying to twist that xenophobia on itself and show itself the way it looks to everyone else.

Tommy: These people who have never met anyone who is a refugee are usually just scared. You met a group that took you to the airport, was it? They, back when you were putting out the posters, they were helping you and they took you around in the car. Did I read that right?

Peter: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I've had help from people along the way, definitely. Um, but they had—

Tommy: they were new to Australia, and I read an article. It was quite some time ago, and it was about, um, they gave you a lift somewhere.

Peter: Yeah, I've had, I've had help from a bunch of different people. I'm having trouble remembering the, the bit that you're, um, remembering.

Tommy: It's happened too many times. Just get too many lifts from strangers.

Josh: Well, the thing is, the art lives on beyond you as well, right? Like, I saw, um, the, the Aussie poster specifically, all of a sudden you see Rolf Harris popping up and all that sort of thing, and you assume that this is the same artist spreading the message further. Really?

Peter: Is that what you thought when you saw the—

Josh: I literally, yeah, I mean, I literally thought— I didn't— I mean, you see one, I didn't even unders— the thing is that I sort of knew the top line, uh, you know, I saw a guy who quintessentially doesn't look Australian. Yeah. Or, you know, what, you know, what the, uh, the tanned Bondi sort of, you know, version that the international people would see. And so I got, uh, that message. And then, yeah, I just assumed that when I see other versions, I'm like, ah, this is— yeah, it's saying something else. Like, this— there's another part of this message. Yeah, I'm probably a bit of a dummy. Were there a lot of people that were saying, hey, if you got a new one No, no, no, no, no, just me.

Peter: Um, but I mean, you're right, like, because it's— you're creating a meme in some ways. And that's what happened with Real Australians Say Welcome, is that people— that's the way what I wanted to happen with that, is that people absorb it, make it their own, uh, and it spreads. Uh, yeah, that's how ideas spread. But it also means that that's a way that people can criticise the idea. And I think that was a good example of somebody having a sort of a fair criticism of it. Though, I mean, I don't, uh, I don't agree with that perspective. I think, I mean, there's some truth to it because there's something that— I mean, my posters are a bit taken at face value. They're sort of the platitude in this, like they, like, you know, this is an Aussie. It's sort of a bit easy and lacking in nuance, and it's sort of pumped up and optimistic because I've picked this one guy from the archive who looks proud. There are plenty of other photos in the archive of people who did not look proud, who just looked like, why are you taking my photo for this racist policy? Um, so I take that as fair criticism.

Josh: But, um, so were you pissed off when you heard that there was this other version?

Peter: No, I wasn't pissed off because I think it's, it's a good point, but it's not— it's sort of— it's also— but I understand the temperament behind it because the, the sort of the view behind that is that why are you using Australian-ness to sort of, as something that we should aspire to? Because Australia is part of, is a colonial state. It's, therefore, it's beyond redemption. It can't be, you know, it's somehow impure. That's why.

Josh: Isn't that speaking to the far right then, to the nationalist who wants to, who sees themselves as an Australian?

Peter: Um, you mean they're posted? They're all—

Josh: No, as in, as in the what, what you're doing using the, the Aussie language, it's like it's disrupting their— Yeah, it's disrupting the person who is on Australia Day, you know.

Peter: Of course, but it's, it's to someone who's on the far— Like, the person that made those Rolf Harris posters are definitely someone that's on the far left, um, that doesn't like anyone trying to use anything Australian as being as being something that we should aspire to. Um, see, what my posters do is try to pull people to the middle and find some middle ground, that, um, the, the nation-state is, um, is a lot better than the sort of the feudal systems which it sort of came out of. And it gives us the, the liberalism that allows art like mine and like the art that was critical of my work, uh, to exist. So, there are definitely good things about it. But the point I'm getting at is that sort of it's puritanical to go, "Oh, nations have done bad things, therefore let's get rid of nations." What is that word? Puritanical. It's just meaning wanting things to be pure, not being completely sort of intolerant of—

Josh: It's like a black and white almost. Oh, exactly.

Peter: Exactly.

Josh: It's either got to be this way versus some form of nuance.

Peter: Exactly. It's, it's a, it's a, I mean, I can't remember who said it, but somebody said that fascism is an intolerance towards nuance, or it's an inability to accept nuance. Um, and peace, peace is always a compromise between, uh, things that are essentially imperfect. Um, and I think that most people can sort of sense that in what I'm doing. But, um, I think that for someone to criticise this project, which is obviously promoting and trying to be accepting towards somebody who doesn't look like a typical Aussie. I just think that shows a certain intolerance towards any compromise. Like, things have to be black or white, and people that think that way are children, you know. They're not, they're not sort of serious political thinkers. They are, they're sort of the people that want the world to be simpler than it is.

Josh: When did the book start coming about? What was the process of that?

Peter: All right, yeah, I was going to tell you before. Yeah, I did a panel discussion about Australian identity, and I sort of felt like I had a lot of things to say. And on a panel discussion, you get a chance to say a little bit of this, a little bit, and then at the end of it, I was like, but I didn't sort of say anything. And then at the same day, I had a— right after the discussion, had a really good chat with a friend of mine about all this family stuff that I hadn't really spoken about to other people. It was sort of unresolved family secrets and conflict. And then I suddenly saw that's a great analogy, that because Australia is like a family, it has a troubled history that we sort of is very difficult to resolve or even to think or talk about. So we sort of try to avoid that. And I thought, well, maybe I can discuss them both at once. There's a, there's an interesting analogy there. So that's when I started writing the book. I then contacted somebody, my editor at Black Ink, who I didn't know at the time, and I sort of said, hi, I'm, I'm writing a book and I'm at the stage that I would like to sort of find a publisher. But at that stage I had not written a single word. Yeah, I just needed to hear that maybe someone would be interested, but like just to give me the confidence basically. And Chris was very generous, said, oh, it's interesting, can you send me a sample? I said, yes, I can. And then got to work writing it and managed to catch his interest and he was very encouraging. And so the book sort of came from there.

Josh: What was the process like? Like, is it a, you know, a bunch of dot points? Is it working out a narrative? Yeah, it's—

Peter: I think it has— it must be— I'm writing again and I think it's going to be different this time. But what made this, uh, I think I'd been thinking about it for years, just sort of bubbling away. And the book does follow a pretty chronological order with the poster projects, and interwoven in that is, is the family stuff that really, um, gives it its emotional core, I guess. And so I know, I think I, I've just been thinking about it for a long time. So the first half just sort of rushed out in a few months, and then the second half was much harder to sort of tie all these threads together and try to make sense of it all.

Tommy: Did you see yourself as a writer at all? Like, you know, your tool being the paintbrush on the building, the posters, and then picking up the pen or typing?

Peter: I mean, you'd know with, with doing video stuff, it is— you are telling a story. It's all very similar when it comes to editing. You're sort of writing in a way you're sort of telling a story. My posters use words, so— but no, it was a different process. There's obviously 60,000 words rather than just 4 on the poster. But, um, uh, it was, it was— I learned a lot through doing it. Um, uh, and I just— my, my guiding principle for the whole thing is, well, I'm not, uh, an experienced writer, I'm not a trained writer, but if I can be completely honest, that's kind of a, um, that can actually help a lot if— I mean, because in doing that, if you sort of commit yourself to being honest, you go through a storey and eventually get to things that you really didn't want to talk about, but you go, well, I said I was going to be honest, now I have to try to reconcile this thing that happened. And did you have to make a bunch of calls to people before the book went out and said, hey, I'm talking about this, we haven't even discussed it, or No, I didn't do that because I, I mean, like the posters, I just, I don't really ask permission. I just, I trust that, um, the truth is, is going to be better for everyone in the long term, I think. And so I, and obviously, you know, books are written by people, not by committees. I, this is my view, the way my life is and the way Australia is. Um, if people don't like it, then they're absolutely welcome to, and I I don't want to— I don't aim to upset people. I aim to sort of make people feel better, really.

Josh: Is it hard trying to get to a universal truth?

Peter: Well, it's impossible. That's— I mean, that's the— I mean, that's, uh, if there are any universal truths, that's got to be one of them, that it's the, the world being infinite and our minds being finite. Uh, we're not going to have we're not going to find things that are these set rules that will work every single time. And so that realisation gives you a bit of humility. It doesn't mean don't try. It doesn't mean like don't try to improve the world. It just means be humble while you're doing it because you are human and you will inevitably fail, or, and, and in some cases make things worse. You can't sort of and you'll make things worse for sure if you go out there completely convinced of your righteousness.

Josh: So yeah, do you feel like when you're writing the book that you would start to call bullshit on previous truths? Like, I guess once you go further back and you start creating a narrative or working it out, can you start to see, oh, actually, this probably— did it actually happen like that?

Peter: No, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of me sort of questioning my my previously strongly held beliefs in the book. Um, because I mean, really, I got caught up in the enthusiasm of what I was doing and ran with it for years because, um, because I sort of needed something like that. And the book was really a chance to just do an audit on everything I'd done and all my thoughts and to sort of collate some sort of sense out of it all. Um, and absolutely, like, if you're not willing to, to do that and sort of, and to change your views, then, um, you're not— you sh— how can you really be trusted in a way?

Tommy: I think I just want to close the loop. Mr. 97, Pauline Hanson, did she go to jail? 11 weeks in jail.

Josh: Oh, nice little holiday. What was it for?

Tommy: Uh, it was for flat-out racist electoral fraud, which was, which was later overturned.

Josh: Oh, really?

Tommy: Yeah, after she spent the time in jail. Oh, it's all right. And then also the fine in Victoria, did you— $793.

Josh: That's pretty high.

Tommy: That seems high. How do they get to those unit points? We're working out the penalty units. Penalty units. They give a certain amount of penalty units to something, and then that calculates the price of the fine. So there's a bunch of penalty— I mean, I can go and throw an old TV onto the train line and only pay $3.17.

Josh: Yeah, so that's a better investment from an art installation, definitely, than there is an old Macintosh computer down there.

Tommy: It could be art. That's ridiculous.

Josh: What's the most embarrassing piece of art that you've ever done?

Peter: Oh, um, God, I mean, things— yeah, I mean, paintings. I mean, I used to paint in acrylics on canvas, and I've done paintings that, uh, yeah, that I've, you know, I have to— I've deliberately forgotten because they're embarrassing.

Tommy: Are you the classic artist though that looks back at something like a— for, I guess, what you can relate with is making videos and looking back at stuff from ages ago where you thought at the time, yeah, cool, absolutely.

Peter: Now you're like, oh yeah, absolutely. And yeah, the more you thought it was fantastic, the more embarrassing it is. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, every, every artist must have that stuff. But what do you look—

Tommy: what do you see when you look at this photo now, or the poster?

Peter: Oh no, I still, I still love this stuff. I mean, the stuff I'm doing, I think I'll be doing it for a long time because I think it will sadly be relevant for a long time because, you know, these, uh, divisions are very hard when it comes to, uh, sort of race and ethnicity. It's, it's very hard for people to overcome those, um points of conflict, I guess. But, um, yeah, as I said at the start, that's really why I gravitated towards it, because I wanted something that I could work on for a long time. Whereas before, um, yeah, I, I think the stuff I was making was more abstract and less direct. Um, it's sort of easy to do that as an artist, is to sort of say stuff in a vague way so you don't have to stand up for it. Um, It's sort of— it's a way of hiding, in a way.

Tommy: Finding your voice is something we hear. Try and find your voice as an artist, as a video person, as a, you know, a graffiti artist, whatever it is, you know. Find your style. Is this you finding your footing? Do you feel like it is you? I found my voice. This is— this is where I'm at.

Peter: Yeah, well, I think if finding your voice is something you want to do as an artist, then it has to be something that is evolving as well. I mean, because ultimately you want an audience that wants you to take them on a journey, and they like it when you are slowly changing and taking them somewhere they didn't expect. So I guess, yeah, when it comes to finding your voice, you don't want it to be something which is putting yourself in a box. But I think that where I've wound up, it's just, just where my abilities took me, I guess. I know, I guess if you feel like you're holding back and there's other things that you can do, then you need to find a way of lassoing them into what you're, what you're putting out there as well. Whereas, I mean, the— because I always think about things philosophically or politically, but they— that wasn't really upfront earlier on. That was very much in the background because I was sort of hiding it, um, didn't really want to put it on the line. So I guess that, yeah, when it comes to finding your voice, just get everything in your arsenal and, and put it on the line.

Tommy: But then we are subconscious beings acting in our subconscious as well, so it's like injecting bits of that in, whether we think it's, you know, a certain way. But then all of our past experiences make up what is the result, you know, today. And so, you know, all the things we've done in the past, it led to this. And for you too.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: And I guess that means that you can't ever really know— like, that's the thing you've got to give up as well, is that the audience is probably going to be able to see more of you than you are willing to reveal, you know. And you have to be all right with that, that sort of accepting that vulnerability that they're going to see into you. And that's kind of what people— that's what you want, isn't it? If you're an artist, you want to be seen, you want to be recognized. And not, not in terms of fame necessarily, but just people seeing who you are. Because if art can do anything, it can sort of reveal something which which can't necessarily be seen.

Tommy: It's a good— authenticity, it's a good explanation of what people push for in art and creative endeavours is be authentic. It's like, that's kind of what is the result, and you get authenticity out of that. But to try and do that on purpose is, I think, where some people go wrong. They go, I want to be authentic, and I want to make this, just put myself out there, reveal it all. Sometimes it does the opposite, right? It's like, sure, shows the cards in the opposite direction.

Josh: Well, I think people who say that they're like, um, woke or authentic are probably like lacking, like it's lacking some form of self-awareness or whatever, or they're signalling something that they may be feeling they don't necessarily have. I mean, from a content consumption point of view, I'm guessing that would play a part too, the things that you are watching day to day, listening to? What is your consumption like when it comes to media?

Peter: Oh, um, I just sort of let it wash over me like a fucking storm. I mean, like, it's, it's kind of fun to do that because that's that— I think that's the way that, uh, people get into media these days is they just let it bombard them and they, uh, get into a frenzy. I mean, I'm not like that all the time, but I just, I can see, I mean, people on Twitter especially, that they're just in it and completely consumed by it. So I think it's good to do that, to sort of come up with new ideas.

Josh: Do you spend time on Twitter?

Peter: Yeah, not heaps, but I just sort of dip in and out because that's where a lot of stuff's happening and I like to sort of see how people use it and the way the tool makes them think.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: You know, because the way we use tools changes the way we think.

Josh: I mean, Twitter is pretty like— Twitter brings out some interesting characters. I mean, I watched the Adam Goodes doco over the Yeah, it's amazing. And the Twitter is used a lot as a way of showing the Australian conversation, you know, around him. I just think it's like, it does bring out the worst.

Peter: Yeah, because it's the toilet wall made immortal, you know, like you're meant to be able to clean the toilet wall, you know. You're meant to be able to forget that garbage, but it's just, it's there forever.

Tommy: Squawking birds at a bin. That's what I've heard it explained as too. It's like, that's the conversation, just birds getting shit out of the bin and—

Josh: has a vibe, that's for sure. So from here, you've got Poster Boy, you're off to Sydney later in the week. What's a tour for a book like? What's the deal? Well, it's—

Peter: I'm sort of discovering because I don't really know the book world. But, uh, I'm in Sydney later this week, so Sunday 3 PM at Better Red Than Dead. And, uh, after that we haven't set dates yet for any because I've already been to Brisbane and, and here in Adelaide. I'd like to go to Perth, but I just haven't said it yet. But these things— I mean, books— these things— books have a, a long tail, so it's sort of, um, uh, I can sort of keep promoting for a while.

Tommy: Is there anything about— is there a subculture of authors? Is that a thing?

Peter: Well, I think so, absolutely. I mean, book world is, uh, is definitely a thing because there are— not everyone reads, not everyone goes to, uh, to book festivals.

Josh: So, um, you did TEDx as well too, right? So, yeah, TEDx, author, artist, like these are a few subcultures that you're entering.

Tommy: Yeah, totally. You just need to start surfing and then surf some, you know, breaks that are protected.

Josh: And so once, once the book's all done, will you just go, go home and start like making some glue?

Peter: Well, I mean, trying to get a picture of like, it is, um, yeah, like on the, the previous times that I was, you know, when I was in Brisbane and here last, I was sticking up posters at the same time as going to the book launch. I mean, yeah, these things can overlap quite nicely. Um, it's, it's—

Josh: is that your way of saying you're currently putting posters up around Melbourne?

Peter: I'm not this week, which is weird. I mean, it's such a part of my life. It's not— it's weird for me to be away from home and not have posters with me because it's so easy to just sort of, oh yeah, I'll do posters in the morning and in the afternoon I'll, uh, catch up with people.

Josh: If you need to store anything, you can store stuff here. We're gonna get some stuff.

Tommy: Yeah.

Peter: You don't know what you're getting into.

Tommy: I open it, open the garage.

Josh: It's my whole screen printing business, Peter and I working together. One Daily Talk show, one Aussie.

Peter: I get messages from people saying, oh yeah, like, you know, come stay with us. And I'm like, sure, because I, you know, cooking up 30 litres of glue each day, it just, it's a pain in the ass for me. And you don't want that in your kitchen.

Josh: So it doesn't have the smell because you hear the thing of people Um, oh yeah, they've been like sniffing glue because that's the chemical one. This one you can cook and you're fine.

Peter: It's fine. It just smells like clag.

Tommy: And you could eat it. You could eat it.

Peter: You could. Let's be honest, if you were desperate.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming on the show. It's, uh, it's so interesting seeing, uh, other people doing the things that they love. And I love the fact that you're, um, it's got a message to it. And, uh, and yeah, I think it's really cool.

Tommy: What makes us think You know, that's— you've thought about it and it makes people look at it and go, what the— and then interpret, then internalize, and then think about it. So it's— yeah, it's awesome.

Josh: Yeah, awesome. Thanks for coming on the show. It's The Daily Talk Show. HypeTheDailyTalkShow.com is the email address if you want to send us an email. You're Peter Drew Arts on Insta, is that right? Uh, cheque you out there. If you enjoyed the show, take a screen grab, put it on Instagram, uh, tag us up so we know that you're listening. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow. See you guys.