Freelancing, Business And Contracts With Ryan Jon

Ryan: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 441.

Tommy: It's weekend banter and Ryan Johns back in the building.

Ryan: Feels good, feels good. Can I ask a quick question about the intro? Sure. What happened to a conversation sometimes worth recording?

Josh: Too long. Too long?

Tommy: We cut that a long time ago, mate. It's very sad that you haven't picked up on that.

Ryan: I've been meaning to ask. I noticed why.

Josh: It's a good— it's a very good question. I think, because, well, part of it is when we started doing video creating motion graphics for that long. It's just outrageous. Like you don't realise how long it is because there's something a bit ego-maniac. Like you're a bit of an egomaniac if you have an intro longer than 10 seconds and ours went for about 45.

Ryan: Yeah, especially when you're listening 7 days a week. You're like, I get it, guys, just skip ahead.

Tommy: You know, when you start anything, it's like we started with probably what somebody who has a legacy would lead, would end up leading with.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so we built out that long thing and it served its purpose, but But you just want to get straight to the content, don't you? What?

Ryan: Yeah, but what, why don't like in time, uh, you get like a Kyle and Jackie O style and you get all the guests that come on to do that?

Tommy: Like, I thought about it, it's resources to be honest.

Ryan: So we floss the blake, hey, it's Shameless, hey, it's Ryan, hey, it's everyone else you have on, and then it's like this big— so it's like, oh, these guys sound like they're connected.

Josh: That's what's funny about, um, KISS, because obviously KISS is a massive radio brand in the US.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh: And, um, I'm sure when they're getting radio IDs, not all of like when you hear it in Australia, they're definitely using the KISS ones from over there.

Ryan: Well, I did a session with Dua Lipa and it was just the two of us in the studio together. We just did an interview and then everyone else left and I just had a page of, hey, it's Dua Lipa, you're listening to my favourite station. And so I was recording them with her and I kind of looked at her and I was like, is every station your favourite station? And she says, you'd be surprised how many favourites I've got.

Josh: I mean, when we were on Jordan Michaelides' podcast Uncommon, he got us to do an ID, which we panicked.

Tommy: And then he led with it.

Josh: Yeah, it was like the first—

Ryan: Where's he based?

Josh: In East Melbourne.

Ryan: I thought, hey, it's Josh and Tommy. And when I'm in East Melbourne, I tune in to— what was it called again?

Josh: Uncommon.

Ryan: I tune in to The Uncommon because it's my favourite podcast in East Melbourne. Pretty sure I do a leap out.

Tommy: The greatest podcast on earth or something. Yeah, I don't know. We panicked and went real big. Stats on Ryan John, because this is not your first bloody—

Josh: it's your 8th time. Yeah.

Ryan: Is that right?

Tommy: Yep.

Ryan: I would have thought— 8 appearances.

Josh: Okay. Can you tell us all the titles?

Ryan: I think there's one time I was on the phone, like I've done some cameos.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. But 8 cameos. Yeah. Here we go.

Ryan: Do you actually want that?

Josh: What were the titles?

Ryan: 6 and Out with Ryan John.

Josh: Episode 402. Can you go from the First one to the—

Ryan: Episode 65, Finding My Birth Mother. Okay, started with the strong stuff.

Josh: Good.

Tommy: Found. Yeah, I'm just giving updates on the titles.

Ryan: Uh, no.

Tommy: Wow.

Ryan: Birth Father Found.

Tommy: Father Found. Okay, 50% there.

Ryan: Episode 175, Ryan John and What's Best for Your Child.

Tommy: Um, what is best for your child?

Ryan: Um, jars of air.

Tommy: Yep, yep, yep.

Josh: Great.

Ryan: That video got me a lot of work but tanked itself.

Tommy: Yep, next one.

Ryan: Uh, 240, Samantha's Big Feet.

Tommy: That was a good episode.

Josh: Yeah, was that—

Ryan: were you—

Josh: you must have dialled in or something.

Ryan: I must have been on the phone in Perth as you called me about something.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Ryan: So I remember you calling and me going, oh, did you want me to do a podcast? And you guys like, you're on it, we're doing it right now.

Josh: Any others?

Ryan: 244, Ryan John and the Ham Delivery.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Great. Yep.

Ryan: 294, Tommy's Been Exploited.

Josh: That was on the call because you called about, uh, it was the compliance for the face of consent.

Ryan: Yes, consent. Yeah, that was one of my favorites. That was great. 306, Game Show Host Ryan John. That was the introduction of the jacket. Yes. 402, Six and Out with Ryan John.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, great.

Ryan: And now, I mean, here we are.

Josh: Yeah, we were talking about it, um, in the office. I think it was just yesterday. About how good you are at coming up with games. You always have content. You've got an Evernote full of ideas.

Ryan: Well, they're not— they're just questions today. And I was saying earlier that it's sometimes cheaper than getting a business coach. Yeah, that if I come and ask you questions I want to know the answer to and kind of imply that it's more about starting a conversation with you guys, but really I'm just like, I actually need to know how to do this.

Tommy: He just knows that we love talking about this shit, so he brings it to the table. I think, um, Ever since I've met you, it's all— you've always been a guy that's talking about ideas and you got your pad out, but you actually do a bunch of shit too.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh: Can I try and unlock your—

Ryan: I came and pitched one hard this morning and in a few weeks you'll see it.

Josh: Can I try and—

Ryan: You guys in it starring, if we don't end up in jail. Spoiler alert.

Josh: We end up in jail. Can I try and unlock your phone? Because I want to see if my—

Ryan: You can see a picture of my dog on the front.

Josh: Well, because I just, I don't do it very often. Oh, well, that was easy.

Ryan: Oh, it was unlocked.

Josh: I don't have a code on it. It did have a code. Okay, here we go. Because it was one of those times—

Ryan: oh no, don't get it wrong too many times.

Josh: I know, I would. I just felt like when I saw you, I saw you pressing the buttons on your PIN, I was like, I'm going to remember that.

Ryan: If I do it like this and then you tell me what my PIN is—

Josh: no, I can't. Definitely not. You can't tell me.

Tommy: I mean, we just gave you credit on games.

Josh: Yeah, Evernote. What's in the Evernote at the moment?

Ryan: Uh, well, the first thing it says— well, apart from this show, or for in general?

Josh: Just in general.

Ryan: Um, I'm still doing Get Fit for free, haven't paid for a gym membership in a few months.

Josh: Oh great, you actually have paid for a gym membership.

Ryan: The joke doesn't work. It's the reverse.

Tommy: I've been paying and haven't gone.

Josh: Which gyms have you gone to?

Ryan: I've done 2 F45s, one kind of boot camp one, a leisure center, and a boxing thing.

Josh: What's been the takeaway?

Ryan: Um, it's all free. Don't stop paying for stuff you don't need, guys.

Josh: Is the boxing good? I'm thinking about doing boxing. It's hard, you have to like it.

Tommy: It's Yeah, the thing is it blows— like, it blows you out. So like cardio fit— if you're not cardio fit and you just go into a boxing class, it's just gonna fucking blow your head off.

Ryan: Yep.

Tommy: Start, start low-key.

Ryan: I've also got work meetings suck.

Tommy: You guys did about a fucking 2% workout the other day. I'll show you how it's showing up.

Ryan: Well, the thing I found about it is I don't think I've lost any weight yet because when I go to the things, I'm like, oh, that would be a good angle, and I'll get a snippet for the video. So I'm seeing how this documentary video will end up.

Tommy: Are you filming at all of these things?

Ryan: Yes, at the end I'm going to be like, this is how much weight I lost doing all these free trials.

Tommy: Oh yeah, but what do they think you're doing?

Ryan: Just testing out the facilities.

Josh: I mean, Tommy tried to get a bagel, like film at a bagel place until he got his head blown off. Yeah, let alone the gym.

Ryan: And you ask them, um, some— I don't tell them what exactly I'm doing, but I sometimes ask. Although the other day I was filming in a pool with the GoPro because I was— and And yeah, problematic. It is very problematic because I was like, you know, there's kids around and obviously in a pool you're not wearing much. And then this guy with the big gut who's white as looks creepy just rocks in midday with a camera set up. And I was like, this doesn't feel right.

Josh: And so did you keep it up or what'd you do?

Ryan: Yeah, I just, I hid the GoPro.

Josh: So you made it worse. Yeah. So you hid the GoPro.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: Guy with a big camera at a pool.

Josh: That's dodgy. Now you're a dude sweating with a hidden GoPro.

Ryan: Yeah, I was sweating because I was exercising.

Tommy: I think, I think The thing is, people, most people are okay with being filmed. Like, they don't even— Do you think?

Josh: Well, most people don't get it.

Tommy: Like, if you— I just hold my phone like this and I go in and I'm filming. Like, no one really sort of— they're like, uh, I think everyone understands.

Ryan: If you're a young dad that there was yesterday with 3 of his young kids swimming—

Tommy: Kids are a different fucking ball game. Yeah, you don't— like, I've got a kid and I feel awkward about it.

Josh: How would you feel, 97, if someone was filming you?

Ryan: Yeah, no, at the gym, like in the pool. Oh, just a bit weird.

Josh: Yeah, what about anywhere?

Tommy: The pool's fucking weird. Don't film at the pool.

Josh: Okay, the pool was a bad idea.

Tommy: Okay, long legs in a pool, don't ever do that.

Josh: Or a go-kart. Never. But what about like general, like if you were just at a shop and you felt like someone was— had their phone and they're filming you, how would you feel?

Ryan: Yeah, uncomfortable. I wouldn't, wouldn't like it.

Josh: Would you say something?

Tommy: No, definitely wouldn't say something.

Ryan: I wouldn't say so. So, well, during the week I filmed myself delivering beers for Father's Day and and we were— I'm turning up to people's workplaces and houses with a camera, and a few of them were like, oh, whoa, what's the deal with the camera? And I go, oh, I'm here to give you free beers because your son nominated you, said you're an awesome dad, and I'm filming a whole bunch of people today doing the same thing. And then he was like, oh cool, great.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Ryan: And that's the most, the most pushback I've ever had from deliveries was that guy who asked one question and was fine in 10 seconds.

Tommy: I think if you— what's your intention? If, if you are actually looking to cap catch someone out.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Other than that, if you're just filming a situation outdoors, in shops and shit's a different story. Like inside of a store.

Josh: How about this? It's law.

Tommy: You can actually film people. It's legal. You can film people out in the street.

Josh: Yeah. But if you were to film someone and then say that they were like, you could still be done for defamation or something if you then applied something to that specific person.

Tommy: Exactly.

Ryan: I've had to delete videos that I've done street interviews because people have changed, given consent, and then you're allowed to change your mind. So people have like, oh, you should get him to sign something. But still, you can sign something and then change your mind.

Tommy: Nah, I reckon signing something, you, you've got a hard case to get it.

Josh: Well, I think that's the thing, like with, um, like all contracts, there needs to be— there's something in there around like you have to make it really— like you need to communicate shit well. So if you're a tech company and you're banking on people not reading terms of service or whatever, yeah, like you it's not a very strong contract. The good ones are like, hey, here are the dot points, real, like, make it— making it really clear.

Ryan: Well, I always ask them on camera, obviously we don't use the cut in the final video, but it's always on camera going, hey mate, we're filming this for the website and Facebook, is that all good? And they go, yeah, fine. And then sometimes I've had people go, oh, I don't think I gave permission. And I can actually send them a little clip and go, here's a video of you saying— and but then I still say, but if you want me to take it down, because they're all plastered when you're filming them. Well, yeah, yeah, I've stopped doing a lot of those real plastered ones.

Tommy: So you said, oh, but I can take it down. Yeah, but that gets in the way of the process, right? If you have that in place to not have to— like, we don't edit these shows and we're not going to edit any of them.

Ryan: You sure you can't edit the thing about the filming the kids? Because if you were ever going to edit one thing, maybe that was the—

Josh: maybe as a snippet.

Ryan: Well, 8th and out, 8th episode.

Tommy: Ryan, John, and hidden camera at pool, the name of this episode. We're leading with it, mate.

Ryan: You're fucked. If it bleeds, it leads.

Tommy: But don't you think it's like— so then that's— so you're making more videos now for your creative business?

Ryan: Yep.

Tommy: Freelance business. Like, this is— it's a huge roadblock.

Ryan: It's huge. I've watched probably half a million views total of people, because the thing is, once it's posted on YouTube and especially Facebook with the algorithm, once it gets the likes and the comments and the shares and someone goes, oh, can you just delete my little snippet, you're like, oh, well, I can't actually edit it once it's posted. I have to delete the whole thing. And then, like I said, once you've deleted it, you lose all the engagement and people aren't going to reshare it and re-comment and stuff. So, it's— Yeah, I've had a few that have really hit me hard and it's annoying.

Josh: And what do you respond to them? Are you good about it or—?

Ryan: Yeah, because I— My lawyer when I first started learning about this was the same lawyer as Kyle and Jackie O. She was awesome and she explained to me that you're allowed to, because I'm like, but they said it was fine. And she's like, you're allowed to change your mind at any time about consent and stuff like that. And, um, apparently the guy, you know, the famous line in Fyre Festival where the guy went to like, oh, where he sucked? Yeah, yeah, he was like, apparently he changed his mind and was like, I can't let— and they were like, nah, that's the best part of the movie. And they paid him a lot more to like recreate that.

Josh: And then he was doing radio interviews purely based on— yeah, yeah, I think to suck someone off.

Tommy: So you understand the person that wants it taken down, but the other side If you actually push hard, they have to spend a bunch of cash to get it through the court system.

Ryan: Well, they called lawyers. The one in particular was a Valentine's Day one, and I was asking, why are you single? Great question. Have it for free, everyone else, for next year.

Tommy: And can you ask Miss Nice7? Can you ask her?

Ryan: Miss Nice7, why are you single?

Josh: Get your lawyers.

Ryan: Yeah, so she calls the lawyers and says, I want it taken down.

Tommy: So, a lawyer actually got involved in one of yours?

Ryan: Well, but here's the thing, the lawyer um, was the main sponsor of my breakfast show at the time. So, so, um, they—

Josh: so it's more of a client issue than Slater and Gordon?

Ryan: No, no, the client called us and like we met with them every fortnight and had a coffee and we had a pretty good relationship and they sponsored a lot of promotions. And so randomly she calls these lawyers because she was first in mind because advertising with Ryan and Tony works. Um, and then they just called us and went, oh, by the way, um, this is going on. Um, and then I just spoke to the girl and I was like, look, you did give consent. If you really want me to take it down, I can. However, it's gonna be the end of the whole video. And to be honest, what you said, I, I understand why you might be a bit embarrassed, but it's actually really funny. What was the answer? She was like, I'm sorry, I just, I just can't have it up.

Josh: I mean, like, what was the answer of the, uh, that was so funny?

Ryan: Um, oh, she was just talking about— what was it?

Tommy: Can we watch it online or is it not there?

Josh: It's not there.

Ryan: So it's Valentine's Day, you asked why are you single, and she said It was something like sexual. She's like, no boys are good enough for me, they're not. And then kind of described how she liked to, um, what she would like in the bedroom and that no one was providing that.

Tommy: She was drunk, she was drunk.

Ryan: Yeah, but it wasn't that detailed, very quick. Yeah, but it wasn't that detailed, but it was just her delivery, it was so funny. Yeah, and it was a bit sassy and a bit like, these guys can't keep up with me. And I was like, great, it's power to you.

Tommy: And it was her alter ego after 6 Smirnoffs.

Ryan: Well, I started going earlier in the night because when they're too drunk, it actually isn't funny anymore. It crosses a line where you're like, oh, this is just— they're just drunk and it's real sad. You want to hit them when they've had 2 or 3 and just be a bit confident.

Josh: Yeah, just a bit buzzy, not completely.

Ryan: She was applying for jobs like at the same time, and she's like, it's just— I'm applying for jobs, it's not the right time for that to pop up. And I was like, I get it.

Josh: So she went to a lawyer though before she spoke to you? Yes. Strange, don't you think? Or she messaged— pick up the phone.

Ryan: She messaged me and I didn't reply within a few hours. And because I get a lot of messages, and it was during the radio show, so I got a call at 10 AM after she messaged at 8, and I was like, okay. And I was down by the end of the day.

Tommy: I get that one. It's full-on. But some people just think that— I guess it becomes your world. You think it's, it's your, you're living this life and you're seeing something go out of yourself, and then you think everybody's going to be thinking exactly where I am.

Ryan: But most people just watch videos and go Well, I said to her, I'm like, it's pretty funny and it's you, I get it, but no one else really cares. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, so that sort of came down and had a couple hundred views in like, I posted the night before, so it was going all right. Couple hundred thousand.

Tommy: Sorry? Couple hundred thousand.

Ryan: Couple hundred thousand, I posted it one night. So the next 100,000 overnight. So that's usually a good sign. It'll have a good couple of days and then see ya.

Josh: I was watching a video of Keep It Cleaner. They were doing like a promotion.

Ryan: Ooh, they've got a free trial for their app, by the way. Oh really? Thanks, girls. How's it going? Uh, that one's hard.

Josh: Yeah, they're real fit.

Ryan: Yeah, try to keep up with Steph and Laura. Like, they do the videos and you're like, oh yeah, they're off, they go. No, that shit's hard.

Josh: I mean, the idea of, yeah, the following along on iPhones and iPads. I tried to do one, it's called ROMWOD, range of motion, a range of movement workout of the day, and it was like you have to get into these positions. It's all like, so you're real stretched and nimble. It was hard. It's hard watching. Are you looking at it? 97, you're saying? Yeah. How fit do they look though? What made you— Till Spilhoff, my German friend from WA.

Tommy: Legit, what, if you've been doing CrossFit for 5 years, you get into doing that too? Yeah, it's full on. I remember when you had that subscription.

Ryan: I went to a Les Mills class the other day, you know, the really stock, the Body Pump and the Body Combat and stuff. Les Mills invented all that shit. Yeah, it was huge a few years ago before everything else kind of surpassed it. But I went to one the other day as part of the free trial.

Josh: That might be the packages we're sending off, the hoodies.

Ryan: Anyway, the Les Mills thing, I went in there and there was no instructor. It was like, I'll watch the screen. It's a virtual one. Mr. 97.

Josh: I was like, I could do this. Is it the packages? Is this what's happening? Okay. Should we go and film this? Tommy's just going, he's just, baby's going to hurt his back. I might go. No, no, no, we'll keep talking. Anyway, so I was with the Keep It Cleaner stuff. Yeah, they were doing this. Video in Woolworths. I was watching it on YouTube. Yeah, it's, um, essentially, uh, they were giving out free samples of their products and they had a bunch of people that they'd just go up and say, hey, do you want one? Yeah. And the funny thing was I saw a friend, like someone who I hadn't seen in ages, is in there. Yeah, one of Bree's old bosses. And they sort of went up and said, hey, do you want one? He's like, oh yeah, I'll get one. And we messaged him and we're like, hey, 'You know, you're in this video.' It's like, I was wondering what was going on.

Ryan: And they didn't tell her.

Josh: No, tell him. I thought that was interesting because it's like, especially at a Woolworths, I would have thought Woolworths would have signed off.

Ryan: I always— the one of the reasons I film in the street is because like, in theory, no one owns the street. As soon as you go into a shopping center, yeah, Westfield can go, 'Hey mate, take off,' um, or Woolworths. Yeah, like, I wouldn't even bother. Well, I feel like they've signed off, and when Woolworths signed off, surely they'd be like so here's the rules about filming in the store.

Josh: You need permission, you need this. I was so surprised because they had like a security person going around with them and everything. But because you would— yeah, you would think that, um, like Woolies are trying to— would have to make sure that they're not going to get in trouble, right? Because they could get real scared of stuff like that.

Ryan: Yeah, for sure.

Josh: Uh, 97, how'd you go? All sorted. Oh, great, done. What did they ask? Any questions? No, didn't even scan them, just straight in the truck.

Ryan: Oh, very good. Oh, I never see those again. The hoodies are on their way. Well, speaking of podcast merch, I think I need to talk about the elephant in the room.

Josh: I mean, you've got a Sizzle Town t-shirt. Sizzle Town is a great Australian podcast.

Ryan: Well, you guys said when you come into the studio, make sure you're wearing merch of your favourite podcast. Wink wink. And I was like, no problem. Sizzle Town, Tony Martin. So hurtful. But I was going to ask, in the podcasting world, is it like competitive for merch sales or is it more of a rising tide lifts all boats sort of scenario?

Josh: I mean, people can only wear one top at a time.

Tommy: A t-shirt and a jumper. I mean, we've got—

Josh: I mean, we're not— I don't think we've, uh, we haven't nailed the business model of merch because we're still— it still costs us money in regards to getting them printed and doing the delivery.

Ryan: Do you think you have any crossover with Sizzle Town of audience? I don't know.

Josh: I don't think so. I've never listened.

Tommy: What's Sizzle Town?

Josh: Sizzle Town is Tony Martin's— it's like, it's very produced. It's, um, by, uh, it's like a mockumentary of a—

Ryan: it's called a late night talk a late night call-in podcast.

Tommy: Actually, is it where like he goes out of the studio and he's like going along checking what's in each studio? Yeah, yep. I have— it's really well made.

Josh: Pots and Pans production.

Ryan: Yeah, Matt is a gun, and Tony is all the callers, like putting on voices and stuff. It's actually a production, like it's— I think I won best audio production at the podcast. Yeah, yeah. Well, a lot of— but it's very funny.

Josh: It's the opposite of us, like us where we just turn on the microphone and talk versus an extremely produced— it's so well produced.

Ryan: And to think in this episode you went and answered the door, I offered to pause. I said something about filming kids not wearing clothes, and you're still like, we refuse to edit.

Tommy: Oh yeah, I mean, get your lawyers, we just won't answer the phone.

Ryan: Sarah doesn't work for me anymore, or with me anymore, so I don't have a lawyer.

Tommy: No, Tony Martin is someone who Radioheads, you know, people that are obsessed with the actual craft, the craft of the form, the format, are into, because he's— he started it, he pioneered it. Hamish and Andy were looking to Tony Martin. I know they're all like, they're actually mates, aren't they? Like, yeah, but they started that— Martin and Malloy, was it Martin Malloy? Martin Malloy.

Ryan: And, uh, he also did— oh, what was the one with Ed Cavill during the day on Triple M?

Tommy: Oh yeah, Get This, Get This, Get This.

Ryan: One of the greats. Um, yeah, he's awesome. So I bought some merch to support the team.

Josh: What did the t-shirt cost? Um, I reckon it was $30 or $40. You should know because I literally asked you before the show. You did.

Ryan: I should have looked it up. Keep it for the show. I meant the chat about the shirt, not the pricing.

Josh: I'm curious.

Ryan: I literally asked how much you looked it up.

Josh: I want to know how much.

Ryan: This is what I want to add. I paid for the t-shirt.

Josh: What are you doing? We're just feeling okay. It's a good screen printed.

Tommy: Yeah, that's a good shirt. Is it meant to be sort of like the bits in the middle missing? It's meant to be like, yeah, no problem.

Ryan: Just the sizzle of Sizzle Town.

Tommy: Okay. Yep.

Ryan: And then about 2 weeks later, after I bought the t-shirt, I got a big box that arrived at my desk in Perth and I opened it and it was from Treasury Wines and there was a handwritten letter from Tony Martin saying, 'Hey Ryan, thanks for being such a big fan of the podcast. Enjoy this wine from Treasury Wines, blah blah blah.' Why aren't we doing this? No, the note had its own letterhead and it was like from the desk of Tony Martin, and then under it it said, 'This guy thinks he's so great he's even got his own letterhead.' That's nice.

Josh: Have you seen our letters, our envelopes?

Tommy: Yeah, we do. Bring one out.

Ryan: Can you, uh, just throw it? All right, I don't know if I'm getting too far ahead of myself, but you guys have all this cool stuff and I've never received any of it. I didn't have money on the door when I walked in.

Tommy: Do you even have an address in Melbourne? Like, yeah, I get stuff in here.

Ryan: I'm just here to get my mail and you wrote me into a weekend banner.

Josh: Uh, so we've got the Daily Talk Show envelope and then we've got like the— on the back it says the PO box and everything. Return to Gronkh.

Ryan: All right, let me set you guys straight. Okay, this is unbelievable, right? Okay, you know those people that have great ideas and they don't do them and it's like it's not your idea until you actually do it? I don't give a fuck how nice your envelope is until you send me something in the post because there's no point you having it in the drawer. Put my address on it, which is your address.

Josh: To be clear, we only got it yesterday. And the hilarious thing about it is the hilarious thing about it is the, the printer I was trying to push on price, I wasn't pushing on price. I said, hey, I want 500 envelopes and 500 cards. What do you reckon? What do you reckon it would cost for 500 envelopes and 500 cards of the same size? Single, single printed, one side, one side card. And then just these envelopes, 500 of each.

Ryan: How much? I'd say a touch under $500 because I'm thinking $0.50 per piece. $1,000. They're kidding themselves.

Tommy: Yeah. And so— Absolutely kidding themselves.

Josh: And so the thing is they got us at a desperate time because I was determined to have this stuff for the hoodies to go out, which they've just gone out and it's all happening.

Ryan: That's what was taken away before.

Josh: And so anyway, I was like, okay, our budget was $500. Yep. Which I think is a good— Yeah. Good amount. I like that you picked $500. Yeah, it's about right. And so he's like, okay, the best we can do is like $850. $850 plus GST. I was like, how about if we got 200 pieces of each? Yeah, you said okay, we could do it for $580 plus GST. Is this very inside baseball? Is this okay? 97? No, it's a good story.

Tommy: That's fine, good story.

Ryan: So anyway, are you still working on this? Yeah, no, this is— is it a done deal?

Josh: Well, because it's all about speed. The thing is, if we, if we had time, you can go on the internet and do this stuff really quickly anyway. So we negotiated for 200 of each at $580. But the great thing is they would— we only put the order in the day before yesterday and they arrived yesterday. So very quick.

Tommy: So super quick, super quick turnaround.

Josh: The only thing is we get them and the cards, they've left the bleed line, the red markers on the cards.

Ryan: Oh, you know what? This is great about this. What? They will obviously need to remake. Well, you should have seen Josh's face.

Tommy: Well, because I know we push hard, we push hard, and I didn't want to say— I was like, oh, but I'm not going to— it's like pointing out the— what you fuck up.

Josh: Yeah, but what Tommy says, is it your fuck up or their fuck up? But it's like, Tommy knows that I need to address, address it.

Tommy: There's a piece of work in it, there's time needing to be spent. Now it's problem solving, and it didn't— you didn't want to have to solve that problem.

Josh: Well, you, because you knew that. Because whenever Tommy says, so what are you thinking? So he just fucking says that. I'm just— I'm literally just there, just Looking at the card, he goes quiet.

Ryan: Well, here's the good thing, right? So you go back and you say, mate, this isn't good enough, get me what I want. And then they give you 200 of those. Then you got 200 of like these spare, not quite right ones. And then when you get people who are a bit chirpy and a bit demanding like me, send me the shit ones.

Josh: Spot on. That's exactly what's happening.

Ryan: So what do you guys have, mini meetings each day? I'm just about to send this guy a thing. Is he a proper one, or can we—

Josh: should we give that? If you get the OG, the OG red line, yeah. So that's exactly what happened. I emailed them and, um, I was actually really nice to them because I thought like they were being— they were squeezing so much when it came to like price and being like, no, it's got to be this. And how annoying for them to now have to print another 200.

Ryan: Well, I should have thought about that before.

Josh: Exactly. And they also had to, um, courier them to it because I'm like, same day, same day. And so yes, we got the, the cards fixed. I've got a new game.

Tommy: All right, what is this?

Ryan: Of all the guests you've had on the show, we each 3 of us need to name one person who would be on the shitty red stripe card. Tommy, you'll start with you.

Josh: Ah, oh wait, should we say it in the count of 3? Okay, I'm ready to go. Okay, you count us down.

Ryan: 3, 2, 1. Charlie Clawson.

Josh: Who'd you say? I said Charlie Clawson. Yeah, well, he deserved it.

Ryan: Yeah, I understand.

Tommy: I said Pete Shepherd, but only because Pete would forgive us.

Josh: Yeah. He's quite good. Like, Charlie's this fellow podcaster, he'll understand.

Ryan: I went for Matt D'Avella because if we said— who made the Minimalist documentary. Yeah. And if we said to him— He'd chuck it out anyway.

Josh: He's a minimalist, he's not keeping shit.

Ryan: Yeah, but from our point of view, we go, hey, these didn't quite work and we're going to throw them out, but instead of putting them into junk, we thought we'd minimise them. Yeah, I like that idea. Well, that's my story, I'm sticking with it.

Tommy: And he just wouldn't even let it in his house. I think any creative understands. Anyone who's had to deal with this shit, printing, and there's a high chance of fuck-up.

Ryan: Speaking of fuck-ups and dollars, what have you done? No, no, this isn't me. This is a general question.

Josh: Not to do with quitting your job.

Ryan: Fellow small business people. Yeah. What's the longest you've had to wait for an invoice to get paid? And is this a legit problem?

Tommy: Yeah, well, we had a mate in the office yesterday that was saying that he got an email from a guy that he'd sent the invoice to Yep. And the guy said, your numbers are fucked.

Josh: Meaning like your BASB and account?

Tommy: No, no, no. As in like, it'd be like me sending you an invoice saying pay me, and you sending an email back to me saying, oh, your numbers are fucked. Meaning that's not how much I'm paying you. Oh. And so like, but I haven't had that feeling. So we've been through all of that. I haven't had many.

Josh: What about the guy— I had the one where I did something for a company. Oh no. And they didn't organise like they were being el cheapo. And so I did it below my normal day rate, and it wasn't going to take like a whole day. So I was like, okay. But the thing is that they were being so tight that like, we just want you to film it and just like, um, basically give it to us. We don't need you involved in like working out the talent or doing the questions. We'll be there asking the questions. We just need you to film it. Okay. And so I filmed it, and it was with this wacky doctor sort of like a celebrity doctor. Yeah. And he was just— it was a medical product and he was just making up storeys about like he was real quirky. It's almost like Dr. Nick from The Simpsons. Yeah. He's just like, they would say, okay, like, you know, tell a storey about the whole thing and say, oh, this thing happened. And then, and I said, oh, have you tried this? And then they tried it and all that, but they were like, he was just bullshitting. And then so the person would suddenly like, oh, 'How about a doc? Could we just try one that we spoke about previously?' Blah, blah, blah. That's real. That's real. Like, you don't need to fudge it, just do the real stuff.

Ryan: Preferably one that actually happened.

Josh: Yeah, but he just loved the theatre of it. He just loved like, 'Oh yeah, someone bumped into me and said, oh, have you got something for this cough?' He's like, 'Oh yeah, I just said take this.' The next day I see him and he's like, 'My cough's gone, doc.' Didn't happen. Anyway, so film it all. I'm like, this is fucking rubbish. But I filmed it and then, uh, gave them the edit. And sure enough, they're like, oh, this is rubbish. And I was like, I sent them the invoice. Yeah. And they're like, oh, but it's not, it's not good. I was like, yeah, you fucked up.

Ryan: Yeah, I had a camera guy. And so anyway, they're like, oh, let me not hand off to Nick.

Josh: I could have 100%. And so I, um, uh, they're like, okay, like, we're not paying the full amount. And then so I was just like, well, I just— so I'm writing it off again. I'm writing off the whole— it was like, um, $1,100. Wiped it off, said, don't worry about paying, but, uh, I'm never working with you again. It's nice to deliver that.

Ryan: They feel good saying that. Yeah, it feels crap. Is there an amount that you'd put up with that shit for?

Josh: What do you mean?

Ryan: Like, for instance, I had an invoice. I did a job for someone in November and it was a 5-figure— yeah, it was over 10 grand, uh, job. I did it in December, I delivered it in February and kind of signed off in Feb and didn't get paid till the following December. It's a different fucking financial year. Yeah, it's crazy. And but I was like, oh, if this was for 10 grand and for me, I'm like, oh well, I'm not gonna turn my nose at 10 grand. Yeah, but then I'm like, 12 months to get paid for a job?

Tommy: That's not okay. Yeah, definitely not.

Josh: I would definitely I mean, this is what I think we've gotten really good at. 50% upfront.

Ryan: I've started that.

Josh: Yeah. If they don't give 50% upfront, uh, 100% on delivery, so they don't actually get it prior to getting the actual files, they have to do it. Which is great because it's normally— it always works out that the people who are a bit fucked with paying also need the thing right now. And so it's worked.

Ryan: So many unorganised people are unorganized. Exactly.

Tommy: I think a good definition is between the— so internally we're saying 50% upfront. The alternative wording for that is a deposit. And like Josh said to me the other week, which I was saying about sending something to a client, I also asked for 50% upfront. He said, no, ask for the deposit. Because when you go into a store or we're primed around the word deposit, that's— I can't stay at this hotel unless I put my deposit down. So why should that be any different for our services? So deposit, using that as a keyword. We need a deposit before we start this project.

Josh: And so some of the things, the other thing that's been handy is turning on credit card payments, giving that as an option. So for instance, if they'd said, oh fuck, if it had been over by say 30-day terms or whatever and it's been 40 days, I'd probably email them and say, hey guys, we can turn on credit card facilities. It's about 2% or whatever. And then I can just reissue the invoice with that fee and you can pay it that way if that's going to be easier for you.

Ryan: Is it worth it? Is it worth the 2% for the lack of hassle? Because I've had that option and I've gone, oh, 2%. No, it's— but you pass it on to them.

Josh: Okay, so you say, I'm going to reissue the invoice. Yeah. And, um, that, that works a treat. I know that I've had back in the day, like a few years ago, I definitely got work based on people just loving charging their Amex. Oh, definitely.

Tommy: You can get the points. Okay, let me write.

Ryan: See, this is why I come and do this podcast.

Josh: So the other thing is— Do you use Xero or MYOB?

Ryan: FreshBooks. FreshBooks? Whatever.

Josh: You can just connect it into— I've got the option.

Ryan: I just can click it on.

Tommy: Interesting one. Maybe since you've done your accounting degree, when you go to do your tax return—

Josh: What does the honours bit get you again?

Tommy: More time spent at uni.

Ryan: Doesn't get you labour more, I can tell you that for sure. It gets you a higher HECS debt. And it gives you the opportunity to 10 years later drop it into podcasts.

Tommy: Yeah, that's about it. But when, so Stripe and Shopify, what's interesting is when you go onto your myGov to do your tax return, say if you've got an ABN, it will show up the amount, it'll show up the figure that you've earned through Shopify because they're declaring it to the tax department now. So Amy, this is it. You told me that 3 months ago. Quick little story. Amy, Amy was doing a tax return and was like, why am I not getting anything back? And it was spitting out this figure and I'm like, no, that's not right. Your taxable income's way, you know, it's like paid like $7,000 or $8,000 or whatever it was. They'd fucked it. The, what they declared, what Shopify or no, sorry, what Stripe had declared to the ATO was a digit off. And so it was like $11,000, not $110,000. So then the decimal point was in the wrong spot. And so she had to fine them and they declared it.

Josh: And so anyway, but that's one time.

Tommy: $1,100. Yeah, I said a decimal point, which I— decimal point was the— yeah, they not a— they fucked it up. They fucked it up. It was $11 grand, so it was like, whatever, $11— so it should have been $1,100. $110. Yeah, maybe they moved it 2 points down, whatever it was. $11,000 is what they'd—

Josh: and it was meant to be $110.

Tommy: It's meant to be $110.

Ryan: That's going to make an impact on your tax.

Tommy: Yeah, a couple of zeros. Ridiculous. Anyway, um, thanks for getting us bogged down, but Another thing that we do, there's 3 things that a client has to fit into. Yeah. And I don't think this can be done from the very beginning, maybe, but Josh and I've been through this pain all before. Yeah. So there's like the amount that you're going to earn from the job, the client, and the creative. Was that the 3?

Josh: Yeah, it's a Chase Jarvis, um, talks about it a bunch, the photographer. It's like you gotta, you gotta tick 2 of the 3 boxes: good people, well paid, great creative.

Ryan: So you'll do 2 of them.

Josh: So we could deal with, uh, some good people and it pays well. Yeah, but it's annoying creative, like it's not that creative. Yeah, you could deal with it's good people and really fun creative, but the cash isn't necessarily that good. So we'd put podcasting into that category.

Ryan: We're not ticking anything.

Josh: It's fulfilled, just a fulfilled box.

Ryan: Average people. Yeah, exactly. No Fucking hate it.

Tommy: And so this is where you, you think that you're leaving too much on the table at the start. Yeah. By, oh, it doesn't matter, it's, it's not much money, they're average people, I need to get runs on the board. Yeah, it's shit creative.

Josh: The other thing, here's another, uh, what was the original question? Bring up your Evernote. What were the questions that you had for us, uh, business-wise?

Ryan: The longest you paid to get an invoice.

Tommy: What was the longest? 2 grand, still hasn't been paid. How long ago? 2 years ago, the business went under. No, 3 years ago.

Ryan: This is sort of similar business.

Tommy: Yeah, the business went through a friend, and then that friend was being— I was paying me through this construction company or something. It pissed me off so bad.

Ryan: Um, when do you start charging? Because this is so good. This is what's included usually in my process, right? And this isn't me not knowing what I'm doing. I'll meet with them for a coffee or a beer and just like a meetup and a chat. Uh, then I'll kind of go away and kind of go, oh, thanks for meeting up. Here, from what we chatted about, here's a couple of ideas. Um, let me know if we want to get serious and we'll start actually nutting some of these ideas out. And then if they go yes, then you start nutting the ideas out. And so you still haven't started, but you've already had 3 meetings, right?

Josh: I reckon that's a— uh, it depends where you are in the process of your career. Yeah, I feel like for us, we have evolved into being better at charging for pre-production. Yeah. So for the first 10 years of my career, pre-production was this thing that I was like, oh, I, I just like, I'll work out the logistics and stuff, but you only pay me when I'm like filming. So for instance, it's like, say if you're playing in the sub-$5,000 mark, it's like, okay, you get a day's worth of film. Like, say if you're charging $2,500 for a day for filming or 1,500 bucks or whatever it is, and then you've got a couple of post-production days at $800. Then it's like, okay, that's what it costs. However, especially when you think about like what you got to ask, what business are you specifically in? Yeah. And so my perspective of what you're doing is so much of the power of is in the creative and it's in the ideas and it's coming up with great, great concepts. And so if that's the case, if that is part of your point of difference and if that is part of the service that you're offering, you need to be charging for that.

Ryan: Yeah, because that's where I've got to wrong, I reckon, because I, I make two kinds of videos and they're both charged for the video. They're not charged for the half a day of writing ideas and the half a day of this and the thinking of that and buying the little bits and pieces.

Tommy: The hard bit is you're at the point where you're using your skill to land the job. Yeah. So you're going, I'm actually— you leading with the ideas to then have that be the reason why. Well, the idea is the juicy, like, the pitch, which is the million-dollar question is how do you get the job without even showing all of your ideas to start with?

Ryan: Yeah, and other people have said what happens if they go, oh nah, and then 3 months later something pops up on Instagram and you're like, I fucking half wrote that.

Tommy: Yeah, but ideas, I mean, exactly, but for them to do them is a different thing.

Josh: But I think there is, in regards to actually making more money, there's only so much padding that you can put into a production or post-production. Yeah. Charging for pre-production just makes business sense because you could make— if that takes, say, uh, say if that's 20% of the project, you can charge 20% more. And so it's just giving you this, uh, like, I think it increases the barrier to entry in some ways. I've heard, uh, one guy I know, uh, who's sort of a finance dude, he would say, I will do a, um— he specialises in like helping businesses with their books and things like that. And he would say, if you want to meet with me, I'll have a look at your books. It costs $150. So it's a pretty low barrier to entry. That $150 I donate to this charity. And it's just a great way of onboarding people. Yeah, they're not fucking tyre kickers because they're actually having to give some form of cash. Yeah. And then it also does the beautiful thing of $150. Like part of the mindset or status that you're playing in is it's like charging $150 seems a bit silly or petty in the grand scheme of a $10,000 job. Yeah. And so that seems like a little bit low status. Even charging an hourly rate is low status because then all of a sudden they can start deconstructing and saying, okay, how many hours? You don't want to get to a point where they're like, oh, did you do one less hour? Yeah, on that thing. Um, but I think that that's a great way around it, which is saying, am I— I'm giving that to charity.

Ryan: Well, I had this idea sort of similar in that we meet up and I bring some ideas with me, and that costs you $100, $200, and if you go through with it, then that gets one. Yeah, yeah. But I like the charity, but I also like keeping the money.

Tommy: Yeah, but I think the, the charity one will be easier to get people that aren't even sold on you. Yeah, because if you're still going to be primed to spend $200 with the person that you like, yeah, if— because if you don't go anywhere, you've dropped to it.

Josh: Maybe that could be something that you even incorporate into a Stripe thing, like a credit card, like it really make it easy for that to happen. And then you can also absorb the fee before it goes to the charity, so it's not like it's costing you money. Yeah, so it's like, okay, the charity, rather than getting, uh, $200, they get $196 or whatever.

Tommy: Yeah, um, the workshop thing, like, for, for us, we've done many pre-prod sessions where they come in to our office for a day and we're spending that time with the idea that there will be a production day and editing required, but it's to work out. So it's an experience for them too. And so these things aren't tangible. The ideas are not tangible. They're written on a piece of paper.

Ryan: They're in an email. Would you consider me turning up for coffee with a page of ideas for your business an experience?

Tommy: Well, if I didn't know that, like, if you know my child, that's why I think, what am I primed? Why am I, am I ready to buy? Let's Am I ready to spend $5,000 cash? Like, I think you can get a coffee with someone quite easily. Are they actually a person willing to spend a bunch of cash? Maybe, maybe not. And most of the time, just randomly having a coffee with someone to convert that into a whole bunch of cash is probably pretty low unless you have an idea, a sense of what business they're in.

Ryan: Well, I got real drunk at Boondogg a few weeks ago and that worked out real well.

Tommy: No, but it has. I went to I went to a vineyard once, a winery, and I filmed a bunch of stuff and I was like, I love this. Was it a distillery? Wasn't it? Oh no, it was a wine. Actually, no, it was a cider place. I don't know, you'd know. What's cider?

Josh: What is it? Is that a vineyard? Brewery.

Ryan: I think they're just a brewery. No, cider is apple, so it's an orchard.

Tommy: Orchard. Yeah, they had orchard. Anyway, I made a whole bunch of videos. It was Amy and I, our favourite cider. And I had my camera with me, my great, my good camera. I did all this great footage.

Josh: And then how you sell it, mate, I've got my good camera with me. I've got my good camera.

Tommy: I didn't even sell it like that. But my point is I ended up making a whole bunch of money, a whole bunch of videos, and charged a bunch of money for that time spent. But that was the reverse. I did. I made the videos first and showed him and then said, what do you reckon? So these are hard.

Josh: So when do you do all those?

Ryan: These are tactics that you have.

Tommy: Like, if that didn't pay off, I wouldn't be mentioning it. But I—

Josh: if you don't have a reel, if you don't have like— so the thing is, it's like, okay, why are they trusting you? I think one of the other things which is really helpful is on stuff that's probably over $15,000 or $20,000, we'll use, um, like, at my— with my last business, I paid a law firm to like write up a contract, like a video production agreement. And that is super helpful because it's like another way of describing it is a statement of work, which is like a few pages. Yeah, it could literally even be two, like two pages. And it says, this is the output, these are the days that it's all happening, here are the key messages that we're trying to get across. And that level of sort of tangibility or, you know, giving them a tangible thing allows you to be able to charge, I reckon, 20% of course. Founder Magazine.

Ryan: You guys know Founder? Yeah. You guys should have Nathan on, by the way. Yeah, he's great. Yeah. So they've actually got a bunch of these templates that are like, if you're a creative and startup and you can't afford a lawyer, here's a template that you can almost fill out. So it's like a DIY little contract, and that he's like, it saves people so much hassle later. So good.

Josh: There's an open source— what's it called, Mace? The one that I always talk about? The, uh, recently Open Legal or something. It's like an open source database of all different types of legal documents. Open Law.

Tommy: I guess what are the stages, right? There's going from not having business, not being a freelancer, to starting that, charging some money. And then there's the next step, which is how do I charge more money? What's the premium, or what's the greater service? Because I think when you're charging more, you've got to be having something that's more of an experience or a premium.

Josh: It's a branding exercise. Part of it too, the reason why I think the doc— like, having the template is good is because if we've learned anything it's, it's all about having more balls in the air. It's about like, you can't— the— when I'm the least happy within my business, it was always when I only had— I was always relying on that one person to say yes. Like, you have that one meeting on a Tuesday and you really— and then, you know, you come home from work and Bree's like, how's the day? It's like, oh, hopefully they get through. That should never be the case. There should be always like 8 conversations in the go. And the only way that you can do that in a way that's effective and that's professional is having some form of template where it's like after the conversation, within 15 minutes, you can create something that you can send. Yeah. And this is me giving me my own advice because we're still dialling it in, right? Like we don't necessarily—

Tommy: and I think you're gonna have these fuck-ups and experiences with bad clients and because it makes you really know who you want to work with, who you don't, or how you approach it next time. It builds confidence. It does all of that. Yeah, that's a— it's a, it's a journey. It's, it's full-on.

Josh: But there's some companies that a video production agreement, like getting them to sign a contract, actually means that the project won't happen. Like, you've got to be willing to realise that they'll go, oh, I don't know, it's too intense for them, it's too professional.

Tommy: Yeah, you know who you're dealing with.

Ryan: This is a big media company, son. You sign on the dotted line or you get nothing.

Josh: Well, imagine this. Imagine you're an event coordinator that's got $15,000 budget to do some videos around an event. And you're working at a big company. Getting someone to sign shit is fucking hard work. And so then all of a sudden they're like, oh, last time when we did this video thing, they just did it and it was all fine. And then you're like, oh, you know what? They're in like, they're a Fortune 500 company, I think they're good for it. If we've got an email from them, that's good enough. Yeah. So I think it's about having the system but also be willing to be flexible as well.

Tommy: And also, I think early days you want to get things across the line. So that's your goal, right? Yeah. Please, please land this. Please pay this. Please, you know, accept my quote. Also, the warning signs on the other side of that is if they're wishy-washy about the details of it, but are willing to engage in it, there's a high chance of it becoming a headache. Yeah. So if they're not willing to identify— so many times I took on projects where I didn't— there was no clear specific outcome. They then throw things into it, it then blows out, and the budget is, is just so small to what it should have been just to even pay the bill.

Josh: I heard that my time, uh, Pete Shepherd say something the other day on our walk. He said, um, clear is kind. And I think that's like being clear in all of our communication. So being clear on like, okay, what is, um, what does success look like for this project? Like, that's like when we have meetings, it's like, what does— even, um, uh, Zig Ziglar, who Seth Godin, one of the greats, um, uh, you know, he was one of Seth's mentors.

Tommy: Seth Godin's out. Yeah.

Josh: Anyway, I was listening to one of Zig Ziglar's early books and he talks about how to be a good salesperson, you need to find out what the objections are from the people themselves. So rather than like trying to like sell yourself in, you need to be like asking them questions. So then they say, I'm not sure about this or this, these are our concerns, or this is what I want. And then you can actually— you've been handed on a platter exactly what the problem is.

Ryan: So do you go back to that same person, or it's more next time you go, well, you might be concerned about this, but we've got this, and blah blah blah.

Josh: I think it's happening in real time. I think part of it is it's like, um, for us anyway, it's more about asking questions to work out how we can help rather than pitching. And that comes from the beauty of having done it for a long time. Yeah, I understand the pain because everyone— we've all been there where it's like your first client, your first client is always going to be the hardest client because they're banking. They don't— if, if we have those boxes where it's like good people, good money, you know, good creative, they've got their own set of boxes. It's probably like, oh, they don't do good work, they're a fair, a fair price. You know, they're good people. And so at the start, you don't have the good creative, you can't show them that you do good work. Yeah. And so they're not ticking that box. And so at the start, you actually can't be the most fucking expensive that's around because you've got no examples. So you need to either say, I'm going to do this for a, for a better price, or, um, you know, like, I think there's that level of flexibility you need at the start.

Ryan: Um, I got a question, final question on my list, by the way. Um, so it's September tomorrow and my birthday, it's coming up to your birthday. Yeah, September 1st. Yeah, you would have guessed it. Should mention that more often. Did you know about Shepparton?

Josh: Are you used to working? Did you work in Shepparton?

Tommy: One of the greatest breakfast shows to ever grace the land.

Ryan: Guys, there's a job going at the moment in Shepparton. No, better. Mildura. Hamilton. Oh, Hamilton with Mix and Ace Radio Network.

Tommy: Hamilton's like Victoria.

Ryan: It's north of Warrnambool. Yeah, it's very, very far out there.

Josh: Could we maybe do a stint? Which network?

Ryan: It's with Ace, who are great people. And, um, he's fishing for a job.

Josh: He's fucking holding the mic.

Ryan: It's driving distance from Bridget's Winery. Okay, you're thinking— wow, I should— do you reckon I'd get it, mate?

Tommy: You've been in radio for about 45 years.

Josh: What's your non-compete agreement with SCA?

Ryan: I don't reckon there's many competitors in Hamilton.

Tommy: I don't think— I think they'll turn a blind eye for race radio.

Ryan: You can't work it. Actually, I'm not supposed to talk about this stuff, but I reckon it'll be fine. I don't think that—

Josh: Did you say you don't have a lawyer anymore? Maybe you need one.

Ryan: I think she's still in the biz. Um, I actually remember her.

Tommy: She was the lawyer for the whole ARN. That's right. Yeah, she got me out of many a pickle.

Ryan: Thank you, Sarah. I wonder if she's related to my cousin, the Tinsleys.

Tommy: Sarah Tinsley.

Josh: Look it up. Yeah, I mean, I mean, how is he going to look?

Tommy: I should just ask my uncle. He might know.

Ryan: Yeah, so it's high— it's September, which means the high school exams coming up soon. For who? High school kids.

Josh: For like all— who else? Isn't exams in October?

Ryan: That's what I mean, it's coming up, so people starting to study and doing final assignments and stuff. And, um, I always felt when I was in high school there was this And this is teachers because they don't know much about the world. And so, they grow up in a school, then they go to a university, another education institution, then they go back to a school. What do they know about anything else?

Josh: Anyway, so they— There are some, Peter Shepherd, he's— Both his parents are teachers.

Ryan: Well, travel a lot. Actually, my mum was a teacher. All my family are teachers. Anyway, so you can say it. You know, but I actually didn't like the teachers at my school. They're all— My family is great, though. But anyway, they kind of—

Josh: My family's great, though.

Ryan: There's kind of this vibe that like, Oh, if you don't do well in your exams, you won't get into the course you want. And if you don't get into the course you want, then you won't be able to do what you want for your career. And I remember in 2003 saying, because, yeah, believe it or not, I was a bit of a smartass in high school. So in 2003, I said, the job I want to do in the future doesn't exist yet. Who'd you say that to? One of my teachers.

Tommy: That's great. Something Josh would have said too.

Ryan: Yeah. And I don't know if I—

Josh: One of my rants.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh: But I don't know if I fully believed. I definitely had the Steve Jobs turtleneck on.

Ryan: Yeah, but I don't know if I fully believed it, but I loved the line. Yeah, and I just thought it was a killer line. And now in 2019, as we sit here in a podcast studio— are you joking? It's outrageous. And what do you do? I make original and branded podcasts and social content. What the fuck are those things? It's so true. It's so true. So I was wondering if you guys were like giving a little talk at a school and people were freaking out about— because my whole thing is like, hey, do your best, but just know that you can still good or bad, or don't even do them, the world's your oyster. But what would you kind of say to those kids, knowing that you've literally created your own careers and not relied on other people?

Tommy: But the thing is, you can't give advice about shit that you actually— it's like futurists talking about the future. They don't actually know, they're just using an educated guess. But then, so for us, I mean, are you saying you're a futurist? No, I'm saying I'm not a futurist, and I don't want to give advice for kids and be a little smart-ass.

Ryan: Advice for the future, but advice to the now. I'm happy to, when they're looking to— yeah, I know you are. I know you are. I did a university course class with futurists, and it was fucking weird. Really?

Josh: Because they're always looking at the calendar.

Tommy: What do they— so you did it at university?

Ryan: So when I did honours, um, I had to do, uh, because you write a thesis and one of the subjects is literally just called research methods. So it just teaches you how to write a thesis, how to Google. Yeah, how to Google. And basically there are a lot of people like me doing the thesis, and there was a group of who were going to write their thesis on future studies, and we're all in the same class together. And I just— a few of them were great, but most of them were— you could imagine them doing it purely so they could swirl their red wine and just say, "I'm a futurist." Yeah. I'm like, "What are you doing, though?" And they're like, "Oh, just— we gotta look ahead." I'm like, "Yeah, but like, what does that— like, everyone's fucking looking at— like, what does that mean?" "Oh, I'm a futurist." They're not usually on the front line.

Tommy: They're off to the side looking towards where the field is. Which I think we need.

Josh: I think it's like academia or all that sort of shit. Like, you need—

Ryan: I mean, if you're planning Christmas Day, you don't go, "I'm a futurist." Planning Christmas Day.

Josh: Yeah, it's very true. Yeah, it's very meta, isn't it?

Ryan: What would you say?

Josh: There is, uh, what would I say? I mean, going to, to your point, I feel like in my mind when I was a kid, I was always like, if everything doesn't work out, like, I'll go to— like, this is no joke— JMC Academy. I remember, like, well, yeah, I just remember that it was always like— I remember going and visiting, and it was sort of one of those like pay your way in, like get into a bit of debt and just fuck it, fuck around and use all that. They had Avid, I remember. Getting excited about that. I think it's—

Tommy: I mean, the, the basic simple piece of advice is be ready. And so it's like, what, what does that look like? It's position yourself in a, in a place where when something shifts or something picks up, like you look at these platforms, these tech platforms, it's like the coders that were just into it back then and are making a lot of money now, it was just what they were into then. So it's like, I mean preparing to be a coder right now is probably not the number one thing to do. But having a—

Josh: Isn't that as bad? I reckon saying I want to do code because that's what the future is. Exactly, that's what I'm saying. That's not right. Yeah, that advice is as good as my parents want me to be a doctor because doctors are great.

Tommy: Choosing code is the thing that you shouldn't do. So I'm saying there's a few things. It's like, uh, having a variety of creative skills that could be adapted into the thing that comes to fruition.

Josh: I think part of it too is like, what are you actually good at? What is your competitive advantage? What makes you different to everyone else? Um, I think that that's probably a good place to start because then if you answer that, if you start with what are you good at and you focus on that, and then— because the idea of just working for yourself at the start, because I freelanced when I was 14, and, uh, that was the most shocking thing I've ever heard. And so the— but I, I can see how just like a young golfer learning to play golf, you learn bad habits. Yeah. And that continues on. There is something— I see people who have only had those experiences where they just freelance, and that's all they've ever done, and they're not necessarily completely whole. Just like someone who's an employee their whole life isn't completely whole. Like, there's— we need to have a diverse range of experiences. So my thing is, it's not necessarily never work for someone else or always work for yourself. I think you just need to be around other people, have other experiences. I think having shit bosses helps. I think you need to, like, from the, uh, from 18 to 25, like, there's heaps of time there. You can have 3 jobs during that time. Yeah. And they can all teach you something.

Ryan: I think having a shit boss or a shit something in general, you always learn more by observing what I don't want to be like than someone great.

Tommy: Yeah, when you have a bad experience, you know what the opposite is.

Ryan: Oh, if I was leading a team and having observed this, I would never allow that to, yeah, be a thing or have a culture like that. Or I think you learn more from the bad stuff.

Josh: So true. And I think that if you— the probably popular, uh, conversation or popular thought is go out, do it on your own, be an entrepreneur.. And, um, I think that if we look at the technology industry or we look at anywhere where it's sort of the hot place to be right now, having the diversity, having the different thoughts. So thinking about, okay, what are young people all doing right now and how can I actually be the, in the 5% that do the other good bit? So for instance, I'd be saying, okay, people aren't picking— like, young people aren't fucking spending time on the phone, so I'm actually going to make phone calls. I'm going to do all of the things that have been lost based on the technology stuff, but at the same time get into those newer things as well. I feel like that's a good—

Tommy: I think there's something also around committing to a creative project. Yeah, so it doesn't have a real outcome, so it could be every Saturday and Sunday, or even every day you're doing something. And that's the learning from this podcast is, yeah, what could they do that is building, um, consistency, commitment, and they just show up? Because you can actually just win by just showing up when everyone else doesn't.

Ryan: Is that the motto of the Daily Talk Show? Uh, who else is doing 7 days a week?

Tommy: Bring them to the Table.

Josh: I don't know, I don't know, they're probably busy doing podcasts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I haven't bothered to look, to be honest.

Ryan: I've been too busy churning out 7 a week.

Josh: Yeah, no, seriously, I mean, yeah, it is interesting. I think that like the self-help stuff or things like The 4-Hour Workweek can set people on this wrong path. Like, I was talking to a young person the other day and they were saying, talking about passive income. Yeah, it's like passive income is built on this notion that you're gonna just have cash coming in without doing any fucking work. Yeah. And so I think that that idea as a starting point is a really flawed concept. And probably just enjoy the process, find something that you do like doing, and then based on that, you can be okay if you don't make cash straight away. You're not going to be fucking—

Ryan: because you're enjoying it anyway. Well, you actually mentioned something previously that's in The 4-Hour Workweek that you just dissed. So, you know how you're like, what can I do the opposite of, or what can I do differently? Yeah. So, Tim Ferriss, author of The 4-Hour Workweek, he used to work in sales and, you know, is it snake oil that he was selling?

Josh: It was actually, it was, uh, he was doing all the supplements.

Ryan: Yeah, it was, it was before, I think it was before the supplement, but he was working for someone, it's like IT programmes or something. Yeah. But anyway, he said that when he emailed between 9 and 5 to the, you know, chief technology officer that he wanted to sell the computer programme to, you know, it would go to their middle, middle end and stuff.

Josh: Yeah.

Ryan: But he said the, the PAs and assistants aren't at work before 9 AM or after 5 PM. And he said and figured out if I call them between 7 and 9 in the morning or 5 and 7 at night, it goes straight through to them. They'll be there, their PA won't be. And so he, whole thing was like, what can I do the opposite of? And so he called them and he's like, that's how I got all my work.

Josh: Yeah. Well, it's like, yeah, working out what are people not willing to do. Yeah.

Ryan: People weren't willing to call and people weren't willing to get up early or stay later. And he just, and he said he did nothing during the day. Like he'd go to the gym and hang out because he's like, nope, all the middlemen are in the way.

Josh: Yeah. I think it's, yeah, it's interesting.

Ryan: It's about, um, I'll be calling you guys at 10 o'clock tonight.

Tommy: Do fucking not. You'll be asleep. I'll be asleep. Um, is there any, because you could say the same thing about do the opposite to how you feel about something. So it could be what, like, for you, what's a barrier in your mind around the work stuff at the moment? Like, what's a limiting belief?

Ryan: A limiting belief, a Lamington belief I have had is my technical ability. And that's why I've actually gone and done these short courses to A, actually learn, but then B, convince myself that I don't need to think that that's like a weakness. I mean, I'm not a strength yet either, but it's also like I'm bridging that gap.

Tommy: Yeah, I guess that's a good one. I mean, you need the technical skills at some point to do what you're doing.

Ryan: I don't need to know how to use Premiere because I've got confidence.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, mate, I had that.

Josh: Yeah, it works unbelievably when you have the magnetic timeline of Final Cut. It's amazing how far confidence will go.

Tommy: But it's probably like, uh, I had this fucked up belief once and I was like, oh, winter, I won't be out, I won't get as much work because it's winter and there's you know, it's raining and this, like, yeah, but so the opposite can be also true. Very true.

Ryan: Well, I found I'd get a lot of— not a lot of, but like some of my money from what you'd almost categorise as like influencer type work. And I've always— you got a blue tick? I got a blue tick. Yeah, but I've always— I meant that as in big—

Josh: when I said big deal, it sounded like I was saying big deal as in being sarcastic.

Ryan: No, you'd have a blue tick if you're offered one. Yeah, absolutely. I'll sell you mine. I'll sell you mine. 5 grand.

Josh: That won't work. Why not? You can't change the name, so it'd have to be Ryan John.

Ryan: No, I can change it. I don't think you have to pay a deposit first for that 5 million. Um, a limiting— oh, I had something and then I totally forgot what it was. Oh yeah, the influencer stuff. Oh yeah, is that I don't fall into— like, I have this thing in my mind that's like influencers are in verticals and categories, and I'm not a fitness guy, a beauty guy, I'm not a travel guy. I think we've talked about this before. I'm not a clear whatever. And I'm like, oh, it's hard to get work because I'm not in the niches. And that's where a lot of like the good coin is and stuff. And then other people like agencies like, no, that's good, that means you can branch out and do a bunch of different stuff. So it's actually a positive that you can make stuff that's broad. And I was like, uh, exactly.

Tommy: I mean, Colin and Samir, these, um, two LA-based filmmakers, in one of their videos they were talking about that it's harder being a duo. And Josh and I have had the complete opposite conversation, which is it's easier being a duo.

Josh: Yeah. Who's right? We can literally— like, who's right? I think the thing is, if you just place whatever position you're in, that's the best place you can be right now. Yeah. And just go forward with that. It's probably the best scenario that you can hope for. Yep. I mean, what's the other option? The other option is saying, I can't do this because I've only got the 2014 laptop and I need this one or that one. It's just like, the other thing is there are people with way less resources there's people with way less knowledge who are doing way better than all of us. Exactly. Yep. Yeah, that's so annoying for me. The alternative— yeah, I hate that. I'm so pissed.

Ryan: For me, the alternative is going back to Pitcher Partners, the accounting firm, and asking for my job back. Mate, we should do it funny.

Tommy: We should do a joke video. April Fools'! April Fools'! What? We should do an April Fools' video to them.

Ryan: What? Joke's on you. You have to take me back. You promised you would when I left in 2011.

Tommy: Yeah, that's actually the idea.

Ryan: They actually said 'Just call us whenever you want your job back. It's waiting for you.' Oh, was that like 10 years ago, whatever it was? 2007 years ago. Yeah.

Tommy: Okay, you should just at least call them out on it.

Ryan: They won't work there, like they would have moved on or up or something. And I'll call HR and go, 'Hey, my name's Ryan. 7 years ago you said if I ever needed my job back, just to call you and it'd be waiting for me. What time do I get in tomorrow?' Yeah, yeah, I like that.

Tommy: It's a good video.

Josh: Okay, let's do it.

Ryan: Yeah, I'm all for it. I'll get you guys to film it.

Tommy: Brought to you by Picture Partners, so Then just get them to pay for it.

Ryan: If you are in the accounting world though, Pitcher Partners is one of the great employers. Really? I will say that. They are fantastic. Where are they based? They've just— a brand new building opened at the end of Flinders Street, like down towards the Docklands in that nice little hub.

Josh: I think you're saying Hampton. No.

Tommy: You started last week, didn't you? You started last week with— sounds like a really good employer.

Ryan: If I did, what am I doing here right now?

Tommy: Too many middlemen.

Ryan: Too many middlemen. I wonder if my non-compete will— if SCA will allow me to work in accounting.

Josh: Sure. Yeah, sure. I mean, you're here right now and we're the biggest media company there is in Melbourne, at least. Yeah, it's a daily talk show. Ryan John, thank you for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. We should definitely get you back on again in the coming, coming days.

Ryan: Like I said, it's a learning— I just come in here with questions I need answered. May as well record it, right?

Josh: That's good fun. And we want to find out, did you find out the cost of the t-shirt? The same?

Ryan: $35. What do you got? Yeah, delivered to Perth. $35. No, I think, I think shipping was additional. Well, what did you charge for the jumpers?

Josh: Uh, $60 delivered. Uh, we'll do, uh, we'll do $75.

Tommy: We'll do it, uh, t-shirts for $30.

Ryan: Just if you're gonna undercut them and be like, just go $34.95. Okay, we'll do that. And you should be like, $35 delivered. Daily Show, The Daily Show podcast t-shirts cheaper than Sizzle Town.

Josh: If you say The Daily Show one more time, and if you hashtag The Daily Show again I tell you why.

Ryan: It's because in the camera my head's covering up the word talk. Is that really—

Tommy: Use your initiative. It's also the advice I give to the young people. Exactly.

Ryan: Oh, the daily— the talk— ah, there we go.

Josh: We're working. Why is my face red? Uh, it is The Daily Talk Show. hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. If you're a freelancer, uh, help me, send us an email. What are you working on? Uh, what are you struggling with? Yeah. Send us an email there, or also Instagram. Take a screen grab. If you're in your car, take a photo. If you're on a beach, take a photo, share it, tag The Daily Talk Show, tag me and Jon as well. Yeah.

Ryan: Also, if you want to have coffee with us, that'll cost you $100.

Tommy: And if you're at the pool, don't do any of the taking of the photos.

Josh: No GoPros. No GoPros.

Ryan: If you're listening to this episode, follow me on Instagram and I'll do a follow-up on the kids filming hidden camera stuff. What does that mean?

Josh: That's just leave it at that.

Ryan: That's a real dodgy bottom of the ground.

Josh: We'll see you Sunday for Weekend Banter with TJ's dad.

Tommy: My birthday and Father's Day. See you tomorrow.

Josh: Bye.