Zoë Foster Blake On Business, Branding & Superpowers

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 426.

Tommy: It's Fat Friday and we have Zoe Foster-Blake in the studio.

Josh: Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Zoe: Good to be here.

Tommy: We've brought out a bit of a spread. Fat Fridays for us is where we just get to let loose. Sometimes it bleeds into the weekend, which is most weekends. You know, when you just start something and you just don't stop.

Zoe: Yes, yes.

Tommy: This is it. Just quickly running you through the Fat Friday spread. These cookies here, My wife baked them for us last night.

Zoe: That is so sweet.

Tommy: Peanut butter chocolate chip cookies.

Zoe: Yes.

Josh: I tried them. So they're all good.

Zoe: Yeah, they're clear.

Tommy: I mean, I'm in the doghouse because I made the fridge stink yesterday. So you said you ate the cookies. I went out for a coffee this morning and I got back and he's like, I've already eaten one. I can't complain.

Josh: Well, literally, what do you think of the smell of incense? Do you like incense?

Zoe: It's okay. It depends how much I think is the main thing. Has it got a subtle waft is okay.

Tommy: Has it got a triggering memory for you?

Zoe: My mum still burns it. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Josh: She sends it to me.

Zoe: Yeah.

Josh: So Tommy's mum gave us this 40-year-old incense. And because I've got, like everything in life, I've got no portion control. So I try like 6 of them at a time and see how much we can get around. And so it's too much. And so Mr. 97, and you're getting used to nicknames, the reason why he's Mr. 97, can you guess?

Zoe: I don't want to say.

Josh: Okay. Well, he got a 97 ENTA score.

Zoe: Oh, I was going to say something else.

Tommy: Was it more relating to his age? Buddy Franklin reference?

Zoe: No, maybe when he was born.

Tommy: Oh yeah, well, I actually, most people think it is because he is only 19. So it's actually quite close to the age, right? The other part of our spread, Basil, what we found with Fat Fridays is we've just said Basil, which makes it sound sexy. We get sent food and Basil messaged me and said, mate, I've got these things. I need you guys to have them for Fat Fridays.

Zoe: Okay.

Tommy: Along those lines.

Zoe: And he's brought in. Sounds urgent. Yes.

Tommy: Box brownies. This is a Melbourne company that they make these amazing brownies. And of course, another amazing company, Hey Tiger.

Zoe: Very familiar. Big fan.

Tommy: So feel free to grab or not to grab.

Josh: So you, you saw a movie last night. It's the— is it the Quentin Tarantino one?

Zoe: Of course.

Josh: Okay.

Zoe: Yes.

Josh: And they go for like extremely long period of time.

Zoe: Oh yeah, it was really long. And I haven't actually gone, I must see that movie on the day it comes out for a while. But the The whole cinema was packed. I also haven't seen that for a while.

Tommy: To be honest, I thought it came out months ago because they did the US press release and there was all these promos.

Zoe: Yeah.

Tommy: And I just saw it came out last week or something.

Zoe: Today, yesterday.

Josh: Yesterday.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so Zoe, you are the founder of Go To Skincare. You do the, you're the chief creative officer. Yes. The PR stuff that you do in regards to like, I find that your in one week you'll be everywhere. And I feel like that would be extremely exhausting in regards like, say, a book coming out. Or is that like a strategy to actually just bulk it all?

Zoe: Oh, well, I pretty much— my policy is only do press if you've got something out because there are opportunities to do press the whole year round if you're interested. And I think you've got to preserve goodwill with the people that care about what you're doing. So yeah, I do blocks and it's product launch based or book launch base and then I go under.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: And I hide and I do work again.

Tommy: So what's the, what's the work in the hiding? I mean, you're writing obviously, but—

Zoe: Oh, actually not writing currently. I'm really in like Go To needs me at the moment. So we're doing, we've got a big thing coming out very soon and it's a big growing company and there are a lot of, I'm in charge of all new product development and marketing and so always things to do and we're, we're in the US now. So that's a big beast as well.

Tommy: I mean, from the outside it's a fun brand. Is it fun on the inside? I know you're biased. It is your baby.

Zoe: I, well, I worry about that because I still feel very much like it's fun. Pardon me. But I hope that that flows through to all of our employees. And because our office and our warehouse is in Sydney and I'm in Melbourne, I do feel a bit disconnected, but I'm obviously in touch with my staff every day and I have the managers in there that look after the culture and the people. But I really do hope that they're enjoying themselves.

Josh: Do you have certain signs that you know the company is doing well from a cultural point of view if X, Y, and Z's happening?

Zoe: I think it's a very pertinent question at this time because we've just grown a lot in a small amount of time. And there's that saying that when you scale, you go stale and you lose your culture and your mojo. And I actually read Small Giants on your recommendation to Hamish, and it's an excellent book about companies, small companies, and they don't even have to stay small, but just retaining that culture and mojo, which is the spark. And it's that thing that people go, I'm interested in this company and I want to work for this company, or I want to know what they're doing. And they keep an eye on you because you're doing stuff that's fun and exciting. So my job really as founder, as well as trying to keep the new products coming out and all of that other stuff, is to make sure that our people that work within the company feel proud and they feel like they're successful because they're doing a good job for a good company.

Tommy: We've talked about, I mean, this week I think we've had like a lot of, we went to Gary Vee and this guy, Greg Cardone Monday.

Zoe: I love Gary.

Tommy: Interesting. It's refreshing to hear a different take on things, but it is, it's very American.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: You know what I mean? So they're very big, big thinking. I took away from it that thinking big, there's nothing wrong with that. When you have a small business, and I've had multiple and they're still small, but we just called our company Big Media Company. So that makes us feel a bit bigger.

Zoe: I like that, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Tommy: But I think there's sort of that mentality of staying small because you could go, you know, the thought around, oh, if we get bigger, we lose the personal touch. But if it becomes successful, if it resonates with an audience, it will become bigger. So it's a really, it's a hard one. I remember Josh, when you were young, you didn't want to earn too much money because you didn't want to have to pay too much tax.

Josh: Yeah, I don't know, $18K a year. I don't think I was paying any at that point.

Tommy: Do we trap ourselves with this thinking now that you've got something that has become big? Have you, what's the shift for you personally?

Zoe: Sorry, just to really define what question you're asking.

Tommy: Yeah, so the thinking big, have you seen a shift in what you classify as thinking big and what you can actually achieve?

Zoe: Well, I am not a big thinker by nature and I don't do plans and forecasts and 3 and 5 year plans. And I think that's probably considered a shitty way to do business. But I don't think you can change how you're wired. And so for all my life, whenever they're like, what's your plan? Where do you see yourself? I can't answer that. And my honest answer is I really believe if you're doing good work today and this week and this hour, and if you send an email that is excellent, and if you do a presentation that's really good and you put everything into it and you just work on that press release and make sure that that's perfect or that that product's as best as it can be, then that other shit will take care of itself. So it's a tricky one to be in because as the founder, you're meant to drive the vision and you're meant to make sure that the company is going in the right direction. And I hope that I'm doing that instinctively because I'm focusing on the now and just doing good work and that that will flow on because I think that that's how it will take care of itself. But if you said to me, where do you want Go To to be in 5 years? I have no idea.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: And I kind of like that because it's even— I reckon even if you plan it, you can't plan.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Well, you can bring it down to some, you know, I want it to be a great culture and fun. So these are like value sets.

Zoe: Yeah.

Tommy: But not necessarily destination set, you know, destination.

Josh: Is it conducive to getting investment or things like that, or do you have to reframe those other business conversations if you— maybe success doesn't look like being super, super big?

Zoe: Well, we're not looking for investors actually, and I think that's a— that's not maybe a popular thing that a lot of people are doing because I think particularly in the American market, that's what people want straight away. We're not looking for investors, so we're small and private and we can still act, you know, internally and do what we need to do. And I like that. I like having that control. So we're not beholden to anyone in that sense.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: So how we choose to go and what we choose to do is that there's a lot of guesswork, of course, but we've now got, we're bringing in people that are very experienced and helping us because I believe in outsourcing the skill sets that you're not good at to people who are very good at it.

Tommy: Yeah, I guess on the other side of the train tracks, you got Jules Lund with investors and he has to tell them where he's going, which I would feel a huge pressure for that. I don't even know where I'm going.

Josh: Well, I guess, like stakeholders, even if you don't have investors, you'll still have stakeholders, I guess. What was the conversation with, like, you've had some great success going into the US and getting into Sephora and things like that. What did you, what did you learn in that experience about how you communicate?

Zoe: Well, when we went into, when we made the decision to go into Sephora in the States, I had a 5-day-old baby and was still in hospital. And the email came through from my managing director at the time and he was like, I know I'm not meant to be emailing you, but I think you're going to want to know this one. And to me, Sephora in the States was always like a pioneer. In the sky, like it was, you'd made it. On reflection now, like seeing how hard the American market is and what a small company we are, you know, we probably sort of thought that through a bit more. And before you go into a huge market like the US, have a bit more of a plan. We're now, we have that plan and we're doing that, we're executing that. But when it came to Mecca in Australia, that was a no-brainer and that had a lot more thought around it and strategic planning.

Josh: Did they, like Sephora, like I've had friends who, have sold products, like they've been tech products and they've gone into the big box chain sort of stores in the US and they get squeezed so much on the margins that gets to a point where it's like, actually, we're not making that much money in here.

Zoe: Yeah.

Josh: Is that part of the thought process?

Zoe: Certainly the marketing value of and the storey is really important. And I think whatever happens to us in the US and however that ends up, I still believe that being seen in the US was a big deal for us and the value of that storey for us back at home, but also for us to get that initial press and that storey for the press over there was really valuable because Sephora is like a tip of the hat. You've made it, they want you. So we're working really hard with Sephora now to make sure that we can deliver what they need and we're, we're going to do our best.

Josh: What does that look— what does that actually look like?

Zoe: Well, Look, it's a really long conversation and it's, it's something that I think perhaps we were so— we're so— we're doing well in Australia and we're loved and we have a profile here and I have a profile here. But of course we were nothing over there. And I sort of love that challenge because it means that people took the skincare at face value. It wasn't like, oh, Zoe's made something. It was like, what's this peach stuff? Talk me through it. So I relish the challenge of that. But it's a huge market.

Tommy: So many people.

Zoe: So many people and so many skincare companies doing brilliant, brilliant stuff. And because I'm based here, so look, long storey short, we're gonna get a lot busier over there and we have some other new things coming out that I think will really help differentiate us.

Tommy: That's exciting. So the American market, I mean, us learning from these Americans on Monday, is there something that you've learned from that experience dealing with American business?

Zoe: Different.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: Well, it's different. It's different even in terms of marketing and how we operate in Australia and in terms of like our, you know, no influencer policy, for example, can't do that in America. You have to change.

Josh: So what does that mean? What's that no influencer policy?

Zoe: Well, we just don't pay influencers to talk about GoTo here. We're lucky enough that we don't need to. Yeah, but in America it's a different business model and you know, there's just not much organic happening over there. So you have to do paid. And, and that for me as a person going, no, but I believe the product is good enough that we shouldn't have to pay people to talk about it. Yeah, bye. So you just have to realign things for each market. And I like learning all of this stuff. I think it's important and it gives you a more holistic approach to business and will even help us back here as well.

Tommy: Was that a rule early days? Like, you know, before?

Zoe: Yeah. Well, I mean, we launched in 2014 and Instagram is still sort of not really nowhere near where it was now. And we happen to have cute packaging and cute copy and that sort of did a lot of the heavy lifting for us. But people like the product and they want to talk about it. So that, that's just worked really well for us. We've been lucky enough to hit the word of mouth.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, that's what you want, right?

Zoe: Yeah. And we value that and we value the customer with 100 followers because she's dedicated and loyal to the product and really likes it and speaks about it so beautifully and wholeheartedly. We'd like dealing with her and talking to her because it's honest and powerful.

Josh: So, so an e-com first business, you're right.

Zoe: Yeah, doing that.

Josh: An e-com first business. What do you get out of having partnerships and relationships with big companies like Mecca.

Zoe: Yeah, amazing. So the reach and the broad— I mean, we, we were doing— we're having a great time just doing DTC for Go To for 5 years. We always knew we'd go into retail or bricks and mortar, and Mecca was the obvious choice. We love the way that had to align with what we do, which is education first. We want women to feel confident and men, whoever else, using skincare. And Mecca do an excellent job of that. Their staff are fantastic at educating you when you go in there. But for us, it was just going, well, people who know about Go To know how to find us, but we want to get to that next level where people who've never heard of us can find us. So we have a really amazing, hardcore, beautiful, loyal following of Go To followers, and they will always be there. But we wanted to show other people about the brand, and Mecca were the beautiful vessel for that.

Josh: And when you're doing those sort of deals, how much of that is you leading it versus people within your business leading that?

Zoe: Oh yeah, I'm not.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: No, I mean, we do those prelims where I'm like, I make the call and go, this is the right one for us. And I believe in the company and I really like Mecca and Joe and have for a long time. It was just about timing more so. And so yeah, then I hand it over to the contract people.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: What did you want to do?

Tommy: What did you want to be when you were growing up?

Zoe: A copywriter. Which was a weird thing for a girl in a very rural area in New South Wales. But I just had this idea of wanting to write advertising copy. And then did a terrible stint of work experience and put a hat on that and was like, no, that's not for me. And then I just, I knew that I liked writing and I just didn't really even care where. So once I finished uni, I just applied for like at a fishing magazine, at a golf magazine, Ralph magazine, whatever would take me. I didn't even really understand what the roles were. What is a sub-editor? I'll apply.

Josh: What was the work experience like?

Zoe: Well, it was just, it was underwhelming in one word. I did some time at Novotel because I thought I might want to work in hospitality management. I ended up cleaning spoons for a week. Polishing, sorry.

Tommy: With vinegar?

Zoe: No, just, no.

Tommy: I thought they put vinegar on them so they don't like stain.

Zoe: Maybe in the park.

Josh: Well, it's actually been a huge—

Tommy: In the park, I do.

Josh: Tommy doesn't realise the amount of tension the whole vinegar thing has because He left probably like, it looked like a 4-week-old meal in the fridge, which had completely gone disgusting. And it was, yeah, it was basically stinking out the whole office. So Mr. 97, 3D Dylan and I last night were trying to make this.

Tommy: Oh yeah, because it requires 3 adults to cater to that.

Josh: Yeah. And so anyway, we're fighting over whether to use vinegar or bicarb soda.

Zoe: I think it's Well, either.

Josh: But we ended up going with the bike hubs. Yeah. So you're cleaning spoons.

Zoe: Cleaning spoons. And then I worked at a modelling agency and I have no idea why. I don't, I still don't know why. I think they also managed artists and my father's an author and they managed him. And so I just sat there for a week looking at beautiful women coming in and out and go, what did I think I would be one of them? What, why am I here? Because I found it glamorous. Anyway, I did end up working in women's magazines. There was something about writing in Glamorous Women that fit together. But I worked at kids' mags and music mags and so on before I got there.

Tommy: I think like all those steps, right? Even, you know, working, working at the Novotel into the next, they're all like these, we're falling over into the next part of our journey.

Zoe: I did do a proper internship when I was at uni though, at a magazine, at a publishing house, and that was probably useful, actually useful, because I was a proper intern doing copy and writing and so on.

Tommy: So when we're younger, we, we probably have more I mean, we're probably open to making more of those fumbles and stumbles along the way. When you're getting to finding your thing and you've found it, you've written your first book and then you're starting Go To, does it feel like you lose that ability to be able to go, oh, I'm going to now go over there? Because when you've got not much happening, you can't, you can go anyway.

Zoe: Yeah.

Tommy: When you have more going on.

Zoe: I don't care what the project is because, and it's hard because people go, hang on, what do you do? Like sometimes when I do press, they're like, and what are you here for? What have you done? Like, what field are you in? Because I write about relationships or beauty and I make products and so on, kids stuff. But I don't think you should, no, box yourself in at all. If there's a project that excites you, do it. And so like even with The Wrong Girl doing some TV writing and so on, it was really just an amazing avenue to be able to dip my toe into that and see if I wanted to do TV writing in the most obviously privileged way, which is it was your book and there was a room full of incredible writers to sort of help you and play with you. And they did all the work. I just sat there. But yeah, no, I think the project can be anything. I think you should always try new things and never just go, well, I'm just this.

Tommy: I love that because it's the opposite of stay in your lane, right? Because I think a lot of it.

Zoe: But I think you need to know what your superpower is because that goes through everything. It feeds through all of those things.

Josh: So mine is the through line, right?

Zoe: Yeah. The writing is the thing. And I honestly use projects like I think because I still wanted to be a copywriter. So I think I use projects just to write copy. I actually think I made Go To just to write the copy.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, that's your Instagram account, right? It's like people, it's like the Playboy magazines. People read it for the captions, not for the photos.

Zoe: Yeah. Don't worry about the photos. If only there was a social media medium that didn't have photos. It's a cesspit. It's called Twitter.

Josh: I mean, yeah. Why is Twitter so fucked?

Zoe: Oh, it's angry, isn't it? I'm not really on there anymore.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: No, I mean, because it was— it's something that links out to a bunch of stuff. So it's got this element of everyone, I guess, needs to have an opinion on there. Your relationship with social media, how do you keep it being this something that is positive versus— I mean, I retired from social media for 6 months because I was like, it was meant to be forever, but I got over it.

Tommy: He's back with a vengeance.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. Going quite hard at the moment. Yeah, exactly. We don't even talk about it.

Zoe: That's a private account.

Josh: But yeah, I mean, what is your relationship with social media?

Zoe: I have chosen to view it as positive and as chiefly work-based. I think the, like, I feel like there's some trick we don't know about because Instagram just seems like, as someone who's creating things and asking people to spend money on them, having a billboard like that is ridiculous and it's free.

Tommy: Yeah.

Zoe: And I just get to talk to people and engage with them and write stuff and play with them and talk, you know, recommend things, you know, and have that digital back fence that I really craved, which is why I started blogging in 2006, just to have that dialogue. So I choose to view it as something that is purposeful and useful for me. I don't— I do put up photos of my life and my family and my holidays and my work, but it all— that's who I am. That's, you know, so— but I, I like Instagram. Yeah, I, I, I Very limited on my time on it now. I delete the app and dive back in a couple of times a day because I just found I was spending too much time just mindlessly scrolling and not paying attention to what any of it was.

Tommy: So do you have the app anymore? Or do you download it?

Zoe: I have to re-download it.

Tommy: So that's a big process.

Zoe: So yeah, and it's annoying. So it's deliberately annoying.

Tommy: Okay. Yeah. No, I like that. I guess you work these things out, right? Because I think the conversation we've had with a lot of people is about their relationship with things like social media. And some just have a non-complicated one. Some have a really complicated one. And then you got to put in the boundary.

Zoe: Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, for you, Josh, coming back from the retirement, I mean, you've gone full throttle. The foot is on the floor. You're getting a bit overwhelmed.

Josh: Yeah, well, Bri asked, like, while I was on my phone last night, what my screen time was, which was, I guess, probably a reflection of how much time I'm spending on it. But yeah, no, it is interesting because I think we're all different as well. So I mean, this, the advice culture that we're in at the moment, it's like, it actually, the opposite is normally true. Like our friend Gemma Watts, Like she spends heaps of time on Instagram and she's like, yeah, it doesn't bother me at all.

Zoe: And that is 100% her job.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: Like that's how I learned about Demma is Instagram. Yeah. And that's how I find people. And it's, I clearly had a problem because I've had to delete the app.

Josh: Well, that's it. And like, I look at, I was literally saying this to Tommy yesterday. I'm like, look at how happy Sarah Holloway is and look how much she posts on Instagram. Surely I can post that much and still be happy.

Zoe: How much is she posting?

Josh: A lot. Like there's a lot.

Zoe: It's like once a week.

Josh: Yeah. And so there's the spectrum, right? You can do, I guess there's an assumption that if posting too much can be bad for you, but there's heaps of great examples of people who are super fulfilled, super happy, serving their audience.

Zoe: Serve your audience, that's it. And I treat storeys and reel posts as very different beasts. So I do reel posts in a funny years, they're more rare and sort of think about those ones a bit more and make sure that the photo's nice. But I am a huge proponent of recommending stuff, and if I find something that I like, I want to tell people about it, and storeys is a wonderful platform for that. I'm not telling storeys like— I think some people are brilliant actually doing a bit of a narrative like, I did this today and here's— oh my God, now this has happened, and these are really good content producers. Don't look for that for me. Just, oh my God, I've made a playlist, why don't you listen to it? I read this book, or this TV show is amazing, or have you eaten here?

Tommy: And It's that word of mouth, right?

Zoe: Yeah, because I wish people would just fucking tell me that shit, especially when I was pregnant. I didn't know anything and I was craving that stuff. And then when I fell pregnant, I had problems and so on. I'm just like, just do this. This is the prime you need. Don't worry about the other ones. You just want someone to tell you. And, you know, working in magazines for so long, you get used to being the editor for people. And I like being the editor for people if it can save them time and money.

Josh: Is that your pushback on the no paid influencer stuff, do you think? Your personal relationship with recommendations?

Zoe: A pushback? Oh, I don't really have a pushback. I just do it. I've just all— I think that again, going back to why I started blogging, because I was writing for magazines and I was getting 4 pages per month in a huge magazine to write about beauty, and it wasn't enough because I was just thrilled with beauty and wanted to write about it endlessly. So I just took it offline, took it private, and started writing about it because I was like, you— this is the red lipstick that you need. Do you even know? And just going on these huge rants about just one product. And this was, I mean, paid nothing. Nothing was paid, you know, back then it just didn't exist. But no, I have a business. That's where my income comes from. So I don't, I have the luxury of not needing to ask people for money to talk about things. I can buy the things.

Josh: Was that a fork in the road though? Like earlier in the, cause I guess with where the daily talk shows at, we're trying to work out How do we monetize? Like, how do we just make a living? How do we survive while doing what we love?

Zoe: There's great ways to do it. And I think people just want you to be honest. That would be my main thing. Make your money. Like, to me, there's a huge feminist part of girls making money from putting makeup on in their bedrooms. I love that. Great. Do it. And it's however you want to roll. Making a business out of Instagram. I love this. This is wonderful. So do it. And I just think it's about being honest and never ever taking your audience for granted. I respect back to my audience and I'll always keep them aware of what I'm doing because I realise that you only have finite goodwill points.

Josh: Oh, definitely.

Zoe: And so for me, I'm already telling them to buy a book, buy moisturizer, buy these, like that's enough.

Josh: Do you think that during your— I guess we have to make mistakes, but we go through when we push and pull, push and pull and work out what fits.

Zoe: And you can evolve, you can change this all the time. Like I might change my mind about this in a year's time and And I think, you know, when you look at like, for me it's newsletters. I think I love good newsletters because I've, I've opted in and the content is useful and I really enjoy that. And I've brought it into my world and I like it. And I think there are really clever ways to monetize and you can just be really honest about it. Like this is paid for.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Opportunities in life. So you could look at Instagram as an opportunity. You could look at writing or making videos as opportunities to take you take you on. What, but what about, what's it been for you when it comes to creating opportunities in the early days?

Zoe: Um, do you create opportunities or is it like that intersection of hard work and luck?

Tommy: Yeah, well, I mean, if you believe in luck, I believe in luck, but it's the harder you work, the luckier you get. Sam Kavanaugh and Jules Lund, they used to say that to me and I get it.

Zoe: Yeah, I agree.

Tommy: I've taken an opportunity, so it's an opportunity to use a platform like YouTube to make videos, and then it, then it sort of gathers that momentum. What were the opportunities that you took up?

Zoe: Well, I found an audience. I found an audience, like, because I had— the thing about magazines back in 2004, '05, '03, whatever, is that you— it was one-way traffic. So you were writing and you had no idea if anyone was even caring, listening, what was resonating. Again, why I started a blog, because I wanted to know what was hitting and I wanted to talk to people.. And I liked the, you know, there was no editor, you could write forever. So I think before I was even aware of it, I was finding an audience back then. And that audience was, was really instrumental in the rest of my career because I was one of those early adopters. And I think the early adopters had that huge privilege of just being first. Didn't mean we were better by any means. We just happened to be first at that time in Australia, um, in terms of blogging. And I wasn't first on Instagram or Twitter or any of those things, but having a digital following was so useful when you start to, when you launch a brand or when you create a book. And so I think opportunities come because, yeah, you work hard and you have an audience.

Tommy: I feel like a real fraud. I'm not. I've never blogged in my life and I've got, I blog, therefore I am. That's what they all go.

Josh: So, geez. And then, yeah, that's my cup. It doesn't actually hold that much. Much coffee, which is like part of the issue with them. It's quite a narrow—

Zoe: Yeah, I just look like a real wanker, to be honest.

Josh: No, I like it. I think it's great. It's your cup now. Yeah, I mean, I mean, you're a craftsperson as well. I think that's like part of it, which is like the, the writing and all that sort of thing. It's not, I want to build an audience, it's I want to express myself and write and, and that sort of thing. I guess that's, uh, Do you think that people miss the mark? Are there people misinterpreting the building the audience versus the craft and how important that is?

Zoe: Great question. I think it's a marriage of both, and I think you can choose to focus on one or the other. But I think, like I was saying before, for me, writing is such a joy and playing with people. So when I construct sentences, whether it's an Instagram caption or a blog or in a book, I, I do it to please myself. But I'm also very aware that there's an audience on the other side of that. And I'm hopeful. And I love— and even with Instagram, you get that feedback going, I loved this. This was— this worked for me, whether it was Breakup Boss, which is the one I by far get the most content feedback back on. But yeah, so I'm aware of the audience, but I'm still selfishly writing for me and I do projects that I want to do. I think you have to. I think that's the selfishness of blogging is that you thought that what you were writing was important enough that you had to do it every day.

Josh: Well, I mean, I think your email is a testament to that because whenever you send an email, it's always crafted so beautifully. I feel like whenever I'm writing back to you, it's like there's always a level of pressure of being like, or not even pressure.

Zoe: Fucking lift, see, that's what you want.

Josh: It's the thing of like, oh, this is fun. Like what? Like you can have fun with the email and stuff.

Zoe: You must, in fact. Well, it's your skill. And for me, it doesn't feel like work. It feels fun. And you're a good audience because you're playful and you're chatty and so on. And you're in the media. So, you know, but Not every email to my team is that delightful. Yeah, sometimes it's just work, but I try and make it fun.

Tommy: You know, my wife's comment about your content, because I asked her, she's not just coming to me. She says it's very, very—

Josh: she's at a content meeting about Zoe.

Zoe: Yeah, we do.

Tommy: We do. It's a pre-show catch-up. She says it's very relatable. And I think that from what it sounds like comes from you thinking about what is going on in your head and personally. And that's our best shot at relating with somebody else is talking about what's going on for us. One of the most relatable pieces of content on your Instagram is your bit about cold sores.

Zoe: Oh me, yeah, I know.

Tommy: I grew up.

Zoe: I've got no problem with being the cold sore queen.

Tommy: Oh my, I'll tell you who's the cold sore king, Michael Jackett, my brother.

Zoe: Oh, Jacko.

Tommy: Oh my God. Should see the family photo album. It's nearly every photo, the kids got a cold sore. And I got them and I just, and this is so unrelatable for you, Josh, cause you don't get that. He thinks it's just this, you know, the people that just do that to me with cold sores.

Zoe: Oh, you're disgusting. Disgusting. So discriminatory. It's horrible.

Tommy: It is.

Zoe: But they can't help it.

Tommy: It's full on. Like getting them—

Josh: I once got like a little pimple that I thought was a cold sore.

Zoe: You know when people think they're getting a cold sore and you're like, oh, you'd know.

Tommy: Just in the corner of the mouth. No, you just—

Zoe: That's just your low end. Yeah.

Josh: Well, that's why I started having orange juice.

Zoe: Do you know what you need to put on that, by the way? What is it? Because I was putting other things on it. You need to put a bit of cortisone, cortisol cream on there.

Tommy: On the corner of your—

Zoe: Because I was like, oh yeah, because you've got like, if you're eating bad food and you've got a deficiency.

Josh: Or unleaded petrol, I believe helps.

Zoe: Oh, okay. To my cold sore tips. But growing up, I remember it was It was such a—

Tommy: I remember I wouldn't go to school because of cold sore. It's funny.

Zoe: It was social death. It was the worst.

Tommy: As I've gotten older, I almost embrace them if I get them. I'm like, whatever.

Josh: He kisses me on the lips.

Zoe: That's too far.

Tommy: Mum used to kiss me on the lips because she knew that it would make me feel better. She's like, it's okay, darling. A little peck on the lips. I mean, so then that was a very relatable piece.

Zoe: That's very sweet. Oh yeah, I mean, I, yeah, they plagued my whole high school career and I had one for the Logies a few years ago, which was sort of my worst nightmare, that or a wedding day. And as most people know, now that we've talked about it, we're bound to get one.

Josh: Yeah, I know, that's how it works.

Zoe: Yeah, but I know what works because I unfortunately, I live and I work in an industry where I'm not allowed to have a bad skin day. And people often, if they meet me, they're like, oh, I did my makeup extra nice today. I'm like, No, you look beautiful, but I know that you're scrutinising me because I'm the one who's going out there going, hey everyone, let's have great skin. Yeah. So yeah, but I was just like, I don't have time for cold sores. I have to find a fix. And I do believe that I have. And I put it in highlights because everyone keeps asking about it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Zoe: I mean, that's just so gross.

Tommy: So the fix being the Famvir tablets?

Zoe: Yeah, take the antiviral tablets ASAP. Like I always have them on me. And then the Compeed patches.

Tommy: Yeah.

Zoe: Don't take them off. Yeah. Just for shower, put them straight back on.

Tommy: Sorry, unrelated.

Zoe: No, this is great content. I'm so sorry to gross you out like this. It is, people will want to know.

Josh: No, no, they do. Absolutely do. The, um, you were talking about the scrutiny of people looking at your face or whatever.

Zoe: It's not scrutiny. Scrutiny is too strong a word, but you know, I think that's what's going to happen if you put yourself out there. I did say that. I did say that. Note for me to have said that. But if you're going to put yourself out there and tell people what to do about with their lives and their skin and their face, then yeah.

Tommy: It's the personal trainer, you know, that—

Zoe: yeah, yeah, exactly.

Tommy: Look to the hairdresser. Yeah, the hairdresser. Yeah, I mean, my hairdresser is bald.

Josh: Yeah. Oh, I mean, he's just gone.

Zoe: I'm not dealing with this anymore.

Josh: It does take the pressure off, doesn't it? Well, there is something about— is there anything in life that you typically undersell and overdeliver on? Like, real— like, you know, it's a specific question, but I know when I was a a kid as a freelancer, I was the hype king being like, mate, I'll have it to you Monday. And then Thursday I'm like, I fucked up, you know? I mean, are you good with deadlines in that way?

Zoe: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: Well, to write a book, you have to be good at deadlines, although I mean, the stereotype is that we're not. And I'm, I'm one of those people who can have internal deadlines that I can stick to. And I've actually, for the first time in my life in 10, over 10 years, I've gone off contract with my book. And I did that deliberately because I wanted to write fiction again for the joy of it and the love of it with no marketing schedule in mind.

Josh: Is that an upholder? Is that what, does that make you?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: I think I am.

Tommy: What's the value there so that you hold personally?

Zoe: Does anyone know what that means? No, no.

Josh: It's the Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin. Is it Gretchen Rubin? Yeah. But I think that the, It's like one of those things of I'm a— Obligatory. Yeah, I'm the one that like will do stuff. I'll say yes and then I'll get really annoyed about it and I'll push back on it, but then I'll do it anyway. I'll be annoyed.

Zoe: I think that's called resentment. Resentment.

Josh: Definitely a little bit of that.

Tommy: So for me, I think it's like I don't like to say anything that I won't do. And so, and then I feel like—

Zoe: Yeah, that's good. That's a good thing to be.

Tommy: But what I realised in a business partnership is that's not Josh's value necessarily. We've all got our own set set of values, right? And so it's like a part of my battles.

Zoe: Yes.

Tommy: What's a value that you hold true to yourself, Zoe?

Zoe: I just think if you're going to do it, do it well, do your best. And I have a hell no policy. So if it's a— and let's— sorry, a hell yes policy. So with my management, we get a lot of lovely opportunities in office and I'm pretty much like, and I can't remember who it was.

Josh: I think it was on Derek Sivers talks about it.

Zoe: Yeah.

Josh: From CD Baby.

Zoe: Well, him. Yes. But then there's the 7. So it was on another podcast. God knows which one. But they said, you know, think of this project out of a 1 to 10, but you're not allowed to use 7 and how much you want to do it. And then if you're an 8, it's a yes. If you're a 6, it's a no.

Tommy: I like that.

Zoe: Yeah.

Josh: Tim Ferriss talks about it. It's one of those ones.

Zoe: It's not his thing, but he talks about it. It's from someone else.

Josh: It's one of those Yeah, it is a Kevin Kline. It's a, yeah, it's a very clever way of distinguishing like, yeah, the bullshit radar on things.

Zoe: And it's your own bullshit radar. But I've got, since I've had children and I've got a business, I'm like, I just don't have spare time. So the projects have to be pretty amazing to do them.

Josh: Spare time and friendships and all that sort of thing. I feel like as I'm getting older, I can't tell whether it is productive or unproductive to become more insular or just like, yeah, it's like I've got this dream.

Tommy: You can think it's, oh no, I'm just understanding myself more.

Josh: Just deep work.

Zoe: You can write whatever narrative you want for it.

Josh: And so I'm trying to work it. I mean, what is that? What's your relationship with that idea?

Zoe: Heavy introvert and very fine with that. Married to a heavy extrovert. And we sometimes just have a little alignment of that because like he could work a monster week and his idea of relaxing after that would be to go out to dinner with 10 people. And mine would be put my soft clothes on and have a glass of wine and sit on the couch. And so I sometimes just go, hey, hey, you married a writer who lived by herself. Just remember who you married, because that's, that's who I am. But I am aware that I can become quite a hermit, particularly when I'm writing and just being with the kids and the family. And so I went to an event yesterday of a friend's product launch, which I never ever go to, and I always like sort of drag my feet. And then once I'm there and I get home, I made like I got 3 amazing things happen. Like I was like looking for, you know, something and someone had a recommendation and I met a great person and I'm just like, do that shit more.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: Like you have to connect sometimes and not just on Instagram, like real life people.

Tommy: So it was about pushing against what is natural to you? Like, you know, should the introvert be trying to be an extrovert?

Zoe: But I can be, I think that we're all mixers, but I can be very extroverted, but I just, it's just how you reach out.

Josh: But it's exhausting though, I guess.

Tommy: One feels more comfy than the other. Naturally, I think.

Josh: You're an extrovert, TJ.

Tommy: Yeah, I'd say, but I reckon I've started to become more since having a kid and doing—

Zoe: It's just called being tired.

Tommy: I'm just tired and I want to go to bed. But I definitely think, ah, I don't really want to. I'm focusing on this and I got my wife and like that, that thought of getting home with my family is so lovely.

Zoe: Yeah. And do that. But I think it's more, isn't it more how you recharge? Like that's the true definition of an intro and extro. I'm not sure, but you can go out and have an amazing day or time, but then you've got to Like, so if I do a day of press afterwards, I'm a shell. I can't talk because you've just given so much energy all day. And I think that's true of anybody. But yeah, I think it was a good reminder yesterday to sometimes just go, just get out there. Stop being such a home person.

Josh: Is it booking it in advance that gives you the anxiety, do you think? Like if you booked it out?

Zoe: I hate booking in advance. Again, I don't know. It's probably Seth who says, you know, you can't book things that far out because you do. You look at your calendar and you're like, I don't have anything on in October. Of course I can do that. You get to October and you're very, very busy.

Josh: Well, I asked you about this, I think in May. So like I did my own trick on you.

Zoe: Busy.

Tommy: And we actually saw her walking past and grabbed her to come in.

Zoe: But I'm much more likely to say yes that week. Oh, 100%.

Tommy: Yeah.

Zoe: Than far out.

Josh: Yeah, it is because it's the anxiety, it's the thinking about it beforehand that sort of builds up. But then there's also the other thing, which like there's a certain trait and probably Hayme would be more likely to do it and Tommy would do it as well, which is just adding extra people to a dinner or something. Like, for instance, I'm like very funny with like, I did a world trip for 3 months with a mate and he did like that. He's like, more is better. And it was like, that's a nightmare. So it's like anyone, like if you, if you have someone, if you're inviting someone to dinner or whatever, it freaks me out if all of a sudden someone else has rocked up.

Zoe: Yeah. I think in my heart I'm a rules and a routine person in that That makes me nervous when I've booked a table for 4 and that they can only fit 4. And Hames is always like, don't worry, they'll be fine. They'll just find another chair. And I always like it at the end.

Tommy: Yeah.

Zoe: I always enjoy it. But my brain resists anything that's outside of those.

Josh: So is the resisting productive in any way?

Zoe: No, it's a total waste of energy.

Josh: Surely there's— I want it to be productive.

Zoe: No, it's not stupid. Start with all my worry and my parental anxiety. Like it's bullshit. As soon as you have a kid, I was never an anxious person. And now I'm one of those people.

Tommy: You can't survive if you were to be the kid, like how much energy is, yeah, they're just running around next minute, they shout over there. And anyway, I was more thinking about them falling off the play thing. There's that too. Hobbies, have you got any? And it can't be writing and it can't be—

Zoe: I don't, that's not a hobby. That's absolutely not a hobby. It's work, but it's enjoyable work. Hobbies. Hobbies is such an '80s word. What does that even mean?

Tommy: Yeah, we actually looked it up, what hobbies meant. It's what you do in the time outside, your spare time. So it's, yeah, what are the things you do in your spare time?

Zoe: Yeah, well, it's just being off. It's just having no plans. And like on the weekend, our family are just pretty much at home the whole time or together on bikes or, you know, going to have pancakes or something. We just go in. And I know that will change once the kids are doing sport and stuff like that. We really love that stuff. And we see family and friends or whatever, but I don't like to lock in plans if I can. I do a tonne of reading because I think that makes you a better writer. Although it makes me jealous sometimes. It's just so fucking good.

Josh: What is that feeling? Because I've— there's been a couple of times over the last few months where I caught myself feeling down on myself based on someone else's success. Yes. And I was like— and it was so— and the thing was that I was so happy for them. And it was such a reflection like, fucking idiot, why didn't you do this or that? I mean, so how do you, I mean, how do you work with others?

Zoe: I think inspiring. I remember when Haim and I saw Scott Pilgrim years ago and we both sat there just clenching the seat going, fuck, so good. And with a piece of art or a book or a TV show like Big Mouth, when we watch that, we're just like, oh, so good. Or Russian Doll. Euphoria, you know, an amazing TV show or whatever it is, I get inspired by that. And I think it's that so funny you don't laugh because you're just sitting there going, yeah, all right, this is great. This is going to make me lift my game. So I don't get down on myself. I just go, I'm going to need a new standard now. Yeah. And I honestly put myself in the most ridiculous company because I'm like, oh geez, Tina Fey is good. I should be better.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: And it lifts me, makes me want to do better.

Tommy: It's energy. It is. If you're just looking at the negative for the positive. Like, it's—

Josh: so what is energy? Yeah, so if you think about energy, because we're even talking about, um, like Mr. 97 and I were talking the other week where it's like, uh, I have moments of slight, uh, how would you describe it, TJ? You, you experience me better than I experience myself.

Tommy: Manic.

Josh: Oh yeah, a little bit manic, a little bit like, oh, we need to be doing this, we need to be changing that, all that sort of thing. And it moves us forward and we like, it gets us doing things, but it feels like And it feels sort of productive at the end. I'm like, oh, look, we got the thing done. And like everyone sorted their shit out because I felt that way. But it would be nice if there was an easier way without having to like make people feel sick.

Zoe: I've got no advice on that because I do the exact same thing.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: So I find I have one of those assholes that has an idea or sees something and emails my marketing director and goes, we need to do this.

Tommy: Yeah.

Zoe: And it will be great. And I just throw her sideways when she was on an amazing trajectory already that was well thought out and planned and scheduled. And then, and some of those ideas, they do move you forward and they are clever and they're great. But it's that, you know, classic trope of the founder who's, you know, wild and can't be tamed and has the ideas. And I reckon I have probably, you know, maybe 10 ideas a day and 9 are stinkers, but it's worth having the ideas just to move one of them forward.

Tommy: At what point do you know it's a good idea? And do you know it's a good idea?

Zoe: If it sticks, like often we'll have a meeting a week later and they'll be like, okay, so here's the, here's the bones of the project that you're talking about. I'm like, what is this? 'Oh, this was the thing that you wanted to do.' I'm like, 'Really? Oh, I'm so painful.' I would hate to work under me in those circumstances because it would just be such a waste of energy. So now I'm like, 'Hey, don't work too far on anything unless we've like really talked about it.' And I've gone, 'This is great.' I mean, what have you learned about yourself through having a team? Well, I've now got a marketing director who is so, great and so experienced and so good at handling me and understanding when I'm just having a, like I'm just spitballing and when I actually mean it and there's a good idea. And it's when she picks up her pen, she's like, when she writes it down, I'm like, okay, that was a good one. But otherwise she's like, mm-hmm. Yep. Okay. So it is, it's finding people who understand you and know how to sort of read you. And yeah.

Josh: Does it feel productive? Like, I guess part of it is that that those moments of extreme anxiety or like having a certain energy gets the result that you want. And so it's like working out if that becomes your standard, then sometimes it might not feel like people are understanding how passionate or important you think X, Y, and Z is unless you bring that energy.

Zoe: No, I, I don't think I feel that way. I think I often have my best ideas when I'm meant to be doing something else. So classic is sitting in the board meeting for Go To and they're talking about financials or something. And I will have astonishing ideas at that time because I'm so bored. And it's that thing for a lot of people who are creatives that when their brain is meant to be doing something, or it's going for a run or having a shower, when your brain is busy doing something else, then the actual creativity comes. So I can't, you can't sit me in a meeting and go, okay, what are we going to do for our next next, you know, pop-up truck or whatever it is. I'm not going to give it to you in that moment. It's going to come when I'm walking my daughter to school.

Tommy: Do you have more board meetings now just so you can have ideas?

Zoe: Yeah, they're like, all right, we're going to put a board meeting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Tommy: I've got it. I mean, are these just storeys that we're telling ourselves that this is the place? You know, it could be for when, you know, when the moon's over here and I've had half a cup of water, I can make the best videos.

Zoe: You can tell yourself anything you want. It's rubbish. Like, but I do believe that there is a lot of literature that supports that, that brain switch between, you know, a rote activity and the creativity coming. Whereas when you sit down with a pen and paper and go, I must be creative, it doesn't often hit.

Josh: Is there a way that you can get a perspective very quickly? Have you worked out a way of writing?

Zoe: No, I need a bit of time. I give it a night's sleep. Like I had made a big decision yesterday and already this morning I'm like, nah. But I didn't tell anyone. So that's a good one.

Tommy: Yeah. Well, that's the first moment. Oh, you didn't tell them about the idea. I get that. What about for your writing? You know, that's something that it takes a lot of effort to get into the headspace is what I think. This is my storey right now. What is it for you as an author?

Zoe: Oh, well, for nonfiction, no. Nonfiction feels very easy. It's like writing a lot of columns or essays, which I've done a lot of. I'm about to do fiction again and it's been about 6 years. So I am feeling a bit nervous and I really want to do something good. And I'm telling myself it's going to be great. And so I just got to start. But I also, I'm making excuses. I'm like, well, I can't start until this new product launch is over because we're all very busy. And you know, I just want to sort out Sunny's school for next year. And then once that's done, so I am holding up, but I know also that once I'm in, I'm in and I'm committed and it's It's like when a fiction book is rolling in me, it's like I'm a medium. I'm such a— sorry, I wish there was a better way to explain it, but it's like the information just flows through me. And then so—

Tommy: flow, it's basically life.

Zoe: It's flow. And like Break It Boss, I think I wrote most of it in a weekend. And I think I felt in my waters that I was pregnant, but I hadn't done the piss test yet. This was with Rudy. And so I knew that as soon as I got pregnant, I would have morning sickness and I wouldn't be able to write. I just said to him, you're on Sonny for the whole weekend. And I just sat like the possessed and I got like 30,000 words out.

Tommy: Wow.

Zoe: And, but I think I just knew that I had to get done.

Josh: Can you manufacture that?

Zoe: No, I don't think so. I think it's, no, I can't. And I'm a deadline person. Like when the book's due, I can write, yeah, like 10, 20,000 words in 2 hours. I mean, 2 hours, 2 days just to get it done. But that flow, no, it's coffee, it's time, it's space. And when you've got young children to get that clean headspace to write fiction, Consistency for us has been a big one.

Tommy: Just showing up and doing this show is, you know, but well done.

Zoe: Thank you. This is big.

Tommy: The rule is we can't miss one and we, and I feel, I would feel so guilty if we missed one.

Zoe: I was like, what if I cancel?

Josh: Yeah, I know. We would still do audio.

Tommy: I'd stop the show. They told you how they're along the way.

Zoe: No, but I was like, what do they do? Because they commit.

Josh: We'd do it. We don't, we don't, like our mate Jordan Michaelides, he'd organised Gary Vee to be on his podcast. Teased it.

Zoe: Oh no.

Josh: And then he fucking pulled the pin. And so the lesson, it like, yeah, that's one of the lessons that we have, which is like when we had organised Seth Godin in New York, until that shit was recorded in the can and ready to exist and click publish, we're not fucking talking about it because we're going to jinx it.

Zoe: So I mean, yeah, he's the god of our house.

Tommy: It was, yeah, it was a bizarre experience. I mean, that could have gone pear-shaped though. That could have been Yeah, I mean, we flew to New York for it.

Josh: Yeah, well, I said we were going to be in New York. I said we're going to be in New York. We're just going to be in New York at this time.

Zoe: Near your house.

Tommy: I didn't ask Josh if it was all good because, you know, when you don't ask somebody because you know that then they will be— because Josh turns out hadn't emailed Seth until we were in New York.

Josh: Well, I didn't want to, I didn't want to fucking overflow his inbox. And so I was just like, let's just be cool about it. What's the worst case scenario?

Zoe: And so Yeah, he's in Denmark and he can't do it.

Josh: He'd already locked it in a few months earlier or whatever. And so it was all good as gold. So I felt very confident about it. But it's interesting because it is that getting guests and getting people on board, there's a huge amount of respect that you need to bring to all of that. And I guess that's part of it, which is it's not all just like you can't always just be thinking about your outcome. Like, so for us, we're thinking about we need to know this sort of stuff. And for me, I was thinking for Seth, that's just another thing that he needs to respond to.

Tommy: Seth's another one of consistency. His blog that he puts out every day. How many words? 20-something million words a day. Yeah. Crazy. Crazy. And he didn't set out. He said, I didn't set out to do this every day, and I can't remember the day that it became every day. And for us, we can remember those times. But I think bringing it back to the consistency, is there something that you've used, that mantra of consistency, of showing up?

Zoe: And it just all went out when the kids came because I did have a great, you know, I'd get up early and write before emails started to come in. And that's that beautiful quiet time in the house when, you know, I didn't even put my email on because email is the biggest distraction for me. To the point where I've got, you've seen, I've got an out of office on saying I don't read my emails and talk to these people, which is a great line of defense. But yeah, I don't really have that routine anymore. And I used to do Saturday mornings, 6 till 10, which was always a great time to write because again, there's nothing coming into your inbox and life's a bit less crazy than weekdays. But since I've had the kids and waking up early and being on them, it's not there anymore. So I have to manufacture it and it's not when my brain operates best. So I'm gonna have to be one of those people who wakes up earlier than the children, which is like horrible.

Tommy: That's gonna be hard.

Josh: So what does that actually mean for you then? What are you?

Zoe: Well, even if I did 6 to like 6:45, I could get some good stuff done because that is my flow time. You just don't get it as a parent. Yeah.

Josh: Because you actually got an external office for a bit, didn't you?

Zoe: I do. I've got it. Yeah. I have to have it. Yeah. And I don't use it enough, but the times when I use it, it's the only way I got my last book finished was to have that. Is, you know, I've got a 2-year-old at home and if she knows you're there, she wants to play with you and I want to play with her. So on the days that I have a nanny, I have 3 days a week where I can work and do my business and my writing and I need to do it and get out of the house.

Josh: What needs to be set up in the office space? What's the vibe?

Zoe: Oh, just a desk. I've written many books at just a desk, but it's a nice vibe. Like it's because I have my team have meetings there and so on, but it just feels nice. There's a candle and Good Wi-Fi.

Tommy: It sounds uncomplicated.

Zoe: It is uncomplicated.

Tommy: Because we complicate everything. Yeah. Usually. And that sounds really—

Zoe: Yeah, I don't need shit to write. I just need actually a laptop.

Tommy: Well, really you only need the pen, the paper, or a laptop.

Zoe: Yeah.

Tommy: But I think it's the fountain pen. It's the Moleskine book.

Josh: I'm shocking with actually writing with a fountain pen. Like my handwriting is horrendous, but it is a nice pen. So I'm trying to push through the barrier of being a—

Zoe: of being teased?

Josh: Yeah, no, doing bad handwriting that I can't read.

Tommy: It sounds like the stage you're at with the kids and where you've— your previous routines that you— seems like you won't be able to use any of these excuses if you actually want to do it right.

Zoe: Nope, I won't. And maybe that's why I said I'll go off contract for this one. I don't want to be beholden to a timeline because it might take a very short time or it might take a very long time. But I think what I've got to do now is go back to compartmentalizing. So I used to have a sit-stand desk and I would stand for comms and I would sit for writing. And then I tried two different laptops. So one was for writing and one was for comms. And I've tried to create all these things. And you listen to a podcast and you're like, that's going to be the fix. And it's not. So what I have to do is go back to days of the week. So, you know, Monday is my go-to day. And Friday can be my writing day. And I have to do that, and I have to do that, and I have to commit to myself, not to anyone else. That's fine. Gotu will always— I'll get my work done. But for the book, yeah.

Josh: What about like, um, the cyclical nature of creativity as well? Like, um, I noticed that winter in Melbourne bothers you a fair bit, being from Sydney.

Zoe: It's like, go away for it. That's much better.

Josh: I mean, yeah. Has that been something from a lifestyle design mind point of view around creativity and what's important. I'm curious as to some of those non-negotiables throughout the year that you may have created.

Zoe: Oh, I think it's just a human, like I just need something to look forward to and to warm my bones because I'm not used to 7 months of winter. And low grey skies sort of do my head in. I think I do probably have a bit of seasonal affective disorder. Like I just, I need for the kind of shit I do. Let's be honest. It's frothy. It's light. It's fun. And I remember when Haim was doing a film New Zealand in Invercargill, which is very low and very cold and very quiet. And I went over there and I was, I said, I'll come because it's pre-kids. And I was like, I'll just come and write a book while you're there because you'll be busy all day and I'll just knuckle down. And I realised very quickly that I need treats to work. I need to be able to do 2 hours of work and then go, I've earned a croissant.

Josh: Yeah, great.

Zoe: Go to a cafe and get that.

Josh: I can relate.

Zoe: Yeah. And I do. And I was in an area where I couldn't have that like carrot dangling and it was terrible. But also I was trying to write, you know, I think it was The Younger Man. And I was trying to write this sassy chick lit book book and I was in a little bit of hell.

Tommy: I mean, I don't think people who didn't grow up in Sydney get it, or if you've lived there, like Amy Miles.

Zoe: You don't really get a winter.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It's so different. We lived in Bondi for a while. 3D Deal was up there on Monday and he was swimming at Bondi Beach. It's winter, guys. It is a different vibe. I took all my jackets up there. He didn't wear one of them. What's the better city, Melbourne?

Zoe: Oh no, I love them both. I won't be drawn into that because I think they're both—

Josh: I just want to— Absolutely not.

Zoe: No, I think they're both into our We're lucky to have two great cities that are so different. But I'm here now and I never thought I'd live in Melbourne, but that's what happens. And I honestly waited till I was 6 months pregnant before moving down. I'm like, fine, I'll come. But I'm here and I really love it. And I love the— I think it's a bit more understated. And I think a lot of people move to Sydney, and particularly in the magazine industry, everyone that I worked with had come from Adelaide, Toowoomba, Canberra. I came from a very small town to make something of yourself.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: You know, and so we're all there with purpose and a reason. And I think in Melbourne, you're probably from Melbourne and you're just getting on with things.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting that you didn't like that experience of being in the cold because I feel like creativity, like I like the idea of it being pouring with rain outside and actually I want to sleep.

Zoe: Yeah, me too. I want sunshine and to go for a run.

Josh: So like LA would be like, have you ever done a stint in LA or anything like that?

Zoe: Actually, the last time I went was the first time I thought Hey, because I was in the cool bit, it's like Silver Lake and there's a lot of Aussies there and some cool stuff happening there. I know I'm not new to figure that out, but I'd always only ever been in Hollywood and yeah, I always felt like it would be Hamish's work that would take us there if he had something that he was doing there. But yeah, I thought I could do this.

Tommy: Yeah. You've done a little stint in New York.

Zoe: What do you—

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: What about that? Killed me.

Tommy: Killed you in terms of—

Zoe: I love New York to visit, but it is a heavy energy city in terms of like You give so much to that city and it takes so much from you and you get so much from it. But that transferal at the end of every day just shattered. And we had, you know, Rudy wasn't even— she just turned 1 and my son was, you know, high-energy 4-year-old. And I was trying to launch the brand over there and then work with the Australian team overnight on a big launch back here. And I just— you shouldn't combine work and holiday and family. It was a shitty idea.

Josh: What's your relationship with Journo's? Because during that time, I remember home saying, oh yeah, we're going on this holiday or whatever. And then you read it in the news. It's like, the Blades, they're moving to New York. And then the next headline is they've decided to come home. That's what happens when you go on a holiday. I mean, what's your relationship with journos?

Zoe: As people?

Josh: As in like, I guess, yeah, the press. I guess that sort of broader sense where it's like, do you constantly have to worry about the things that you're writing online and how that's going to be interpreted?

Zoe: You can choose choose to give energy to it or not. And that was a lesson we learned. And some of the things we did was we would just not engage. And what we realised is that if you don't know it's being written, it doesn't exist. And I think we live in a small pocket of media world, like a lot of our friends, and we're all sort of in the media. So we sort of keep track of it. And but outside of that, no one really knows what's going on and nor should they. 'cause a lot of it's bullshit. So yeah, I guess when I write a post, my main thing is I don't wanna ever offend or upset anybody. And I keep my Instagram and my copy and my work light and happy. And I do even get criticised for that. 'Cause it's like, oh, what about real life? And I'm like, of course I have real life. But what I choose to show you guys, and this was like, as a beauty editor, you got dressed up every day and you had to look like a beauty editor 'cause you were representing the magazine out in the world. And I feel like that's what I'm doing on Instagram. I'm dressing up for you and I'm, that's what the face that I choose to show to you.

Tommy: I look at some of the articles that may be misleading and I click through to the journos and I actually go down the trail to see the young journo that's written a hit piece or something. I just wonder if they obviously don't have the mantra of being nice to people, don't write things that aren't.

Josh: They're doing their job as well, right?

Tommy: And so the problem is they're on a learning, it will be a hard learning curve though. I think, you know, it's—

Josh: Well, what are they getting? What are they getting?

Zoe: Who's teaching them? Like, what are they learning really? It's, I mean, I feel like the metric is so dubious because it's based on clicks, attention, and what is most outrageous, what's going to inspire the biggest, you know, click. And I think that's a terrible way to learn journalism. I think it's a really poisonous way to learn how to write. So I feel sorry for them because my training as a journo was learning in a team of collaborators who were putting together a magazine and working together to be better, to do good work. And so I know that they need a job and I hope that they find a better one. Yeah.

Josh: I mean, yeah. What would you say to— I mean, you're getting a lot of requests and just sort of that inbound stuff of whether it be brands or people reaching out for a bunch of different things. What is the— what's your thoughts or mantra around that stuff that maybe you could pass on to people who are wanting to reach out or requesting things from, you know, people within the media?

Zoe: Oh, I'm a terrible one to ask because we have a— we don't accept unsolicited stuff. We don't need it and we don't want it in our house. So yeah, it's a funny one. I think if something's good, it will find you. And I think, you know, I do want to help out small business and so on, but I think people's etiquette is missing a bit. But I also realise that I personally make it hard for them because we won't accept it through our management. And, you know, DMs, it's not the way to, it's not professional.

Tommy: The amount of people that had DM'd Gary Vee and said, can I have an internship? Like one guy even got up and said, I'm the guy from the DMs that you said no to.

Josh: Sorry about that. But I guess the thing is that the empathy lens is people just don't know what the fuck they're doing. Everyone's just trying to, we're all trying to do it.

Zoe: And it might hit. You never know.

Josh: So what's the weapon? Like if you were to say like, hey, this is actually to enable people to be better. Is there an answer?

Zoe: I don't know. I feel, I think you just have to believe in your work and do good work. Someone asked me the other day, a barista, she was like, how do I get my graphic design out there? What's the thing? And I remember a lot of young writers would say to me, how do I get my work seen? And I was like, start a blog, start a blog. And this was a long time ago, but I always believed in specificity. Specificity. So just be the person who writes about choc peanut butter brownies. Be that person and be the best at it. And be specific because generic is not going to cut through. No one needs another food blog. We want just the brownie girl. So I said to her, you know, what's your Instagram? And she said, I don't really have one up to date. I'm like, no, first thing people are going to look at. You have to make your portfolio so good. And I said, what we get is a lot of beautiful designers is that they'll design our go-to products. So they'll draw it up in this specific way and then tag us. I'm like, that's clever. Show us your work.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: Don't ask something. Don't ask us to take you on yet. Let us see your work.

Josh: How do you know?

Zoe: Let us find you.

Josh: How do you know when to do the ask? Because I think one of the things that—

Zoe: that's hard.

Josh: Like, the feedback that we, Tommy and I, get all the time is how underleveraged we are. Not like, um, in regards to the network we have, because we respect, like, the people who we're connected with we're friends with, we want to be like, it's not transactional for us. Having you on the Daily Talk Show is about actually having a conversation. It's not about trying to push our numbers up.

Zoe: Yeah, exactly. You can feel that.

Josh: And so, I mean, how do you think about those things? I'm wondering if there's any clarity that you have on that stuff. About? About the knowing when to ask. So I guess there is that, like, especially coming from the Monday thing, which is just like tall poppy syndrome, like you need to get out there and all that sort of thing. Whereas we're coming from it from the thoughtful lens of we're planning on doing this show for 10 years.

Tommy: At what episode do we ask? So you could do 400 and then you go, nah, 500 is the number. Then we might start trying to pull in favors.

Zoe: Yeah.

Tommy: And is that the right number?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Is it 600?

Josh: And so part of it is a level of not imposter syndrome, but just being like, oh, we haven't arrived.

Zoe: But I think that that is enough for people to understand. The fact that you guys are mindful of that and that you don't want to call in favors, that speaks volumes. Because people can sense when they're being used and people can sense when, like some people will write to me and say, I have a small business. It would be really helpful to me if you could post about it.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: I know that it would be helpful. It would be very helpful to me if Kim Kardashian would use GoTo. But you have to do the work and get noticed and you can't I think there's this shortcut culture now because of DMs and things like that where people just go, I've made a thing and you're a famous person. I'm going to connect the two. But having said that, sometimes it flies.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: But I think most of the time the work has to do the work, not the ask. And you have to earn the ask, if that makes sense. Because like, I think back to, I think, and the sense of entitlement that some people come through with, whereas what I would ask, like when I was I was very young and working for Mia Friedman, I was like this the whole time, like, ah. And I think that respect for people who are able to help you and able to offer you advice and so on, it still has to be there.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What do you look for in a young person that joins the Go To team?

Zoe: Well, we just hired and I look for talent. Obviously, I think you can train people to do anything.

Josh: Was it hard? So talent is talent hard to teach?

Zoe: It was copy. It was copy. It's obviously something I'm very hardcore about.

Tommy: You're looking for a hard skill, obviously.

Zoe: Yeah, I'm looking for hard— well, I'm looking for talent.

Josh: And so, because— so the difference is, are you trying to get— if someone writes like Zoe Foster-Blake, is that what you like? I could imagine because you've got such a distinct style. If I was a copywriter going in there, don't write like me. Yeah, I think, I think that that could be an easy trap for people of like, I'm going to if I can write something that sounds like Zoe, that's what Zoe's gonna want.

Zoe: Which I would understand. That makes sense. But I think what you had to think about was more the brand. So we gave, we set up the parameters for this person or these people to write about. And we said, here's what it is. This is the product and this is the launch. And we gave them a scenario and then we let them go. And then those who showed promise, I was like, okay, now I'm gonna teach you the words I would never use. And just to help you know what I'm looking for. And then by that second round, beautiful.

Josh: What are some of those words?

Zoe: Oh, it pertains to a new launch, so I can't talk about it. Sorry, that's such a silly answer. But there are— I have pet hate words, and I think because we— I mean, the Go To tone is its own tone, but it's come from my brain, obviously. But now the girls and the women, sorry, that write for Go To have mastered their Go To tone.

Josh: Would you ever say silky skin? Silky, okay.

Zoe: Silky's fine.

Tommy: What is it?

Josh: Yeah, silky skin.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, my baby's bum.

Zoe: It's more like words like, you know, we don't say babe.

Josh: Okay, yeah, sure.

Zoe: You know, you have certain tone for each brand that you have your words that you do and you don't.

Josh: I mean, that's what Frank Body would like to say.

Zoe: Yeah, that's their word.

Josh: Yeah, but it doesn't necessarily hit with everyone. I know like Bree was always like, doesn't sit with me that style, but it will sit with other people, which is really interesting.

Tommy: I've had a few businesses and I've thought about in the past tone of voice and how do I find that? What's your suggestion for someone who has a product and they don't just want it to be a box, they want it to have personality?

Zoe: Well, I think Frank is actually an excellent example because they knew their tone from day one and they mastered it and it's perfect. And you know the tone straight away. The fact that we straight away all just went, oh yeah, that's Frank Sweat. So that's a big tick. I think someone, I think it's a funny one with tone because A brand isn't a person. It doesn't have a tone. You're giving it something. And I always make sure that anyone who works with Go To has a name and a face when they're writing back to people like, hey, it's Gemma here, or whoever it might be. So tone has to be authentic. You can't sustain it if it's not. So whatever you're doing, it should be just, it should just flow. It should be who you are. And it depends what your product is.

Tommy: Should you be putting your name? So I think about like branding, having my own company. It's a different name to me.

Josh: It's a separate entity.

Tommy: It's a separate entity, but humans connect with humans.

Zoe: Yeah.

Tommy: And so I don't want to call my company my name, but then does the brand— say if you do have a business, Big Media Company, is it just us? Is it actually just Josh and I? Is it our voice? Is that what we should be pushing into it to then create its identity or its tone?

Zoe: I think so. For you two, I would say. Yeah, I'd say so, because people know who you guys are and they already like it. It so that you've already got that base there.

Josh: And so is there a move, I guess, on that scaling piece? People who create businesses that scale would say, okay, well, you can't, we can't lean on one person. Like we know that the Daily Talk Show, there's no exit strategy for the Daily Talk Show because it's us. Yeah. Has that been a conversation?

Zoe: Well, this is 4-Hour Workweek. This is where I learned this because Tim Ferriss taught me about an automated business. Because everything you do as a writer and or as a comic or as an actress or a TV presenter is you. You're the only one who can do it. And that's actually not a great way to ever give yourself a break, for one thing. So Go To is now my automated business. It has a lot of me through it, obviously, and I'm front and center, but it can run without me.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: And that's a huge relief. Because now when I do write a book or something that can only be done by me, it's sort of more enjoyable because it's, it's me. It's back to me.

Josh: I think it's— did the US market push that even further? Because I guess the— your status within the US versus the Australian market, did you feel like was an opportunity to say, okay, am I going to push myself forward as the thought leader within this, or am I going to talk more about the product itself?

Zoe: Yeah, great question. And we had to get advice on that from our US agency, but their position was very much that you need a founder. Like, when— if you've got a talking head who's got experience in the industry, that's far more valuable than just going, here's a brand and fall in love with it. So you need that founder to handhold and bring them through and go, this is my journey, this is why I created this. And particularly if you've been in the beauty industry, that's— adds that level of credibility. Um, so yeah, they're all for it, and they were like like, you're so cute and different, and like, you have short curly hair and you're not like the other founders.

Josh: So was that that video? Because I remember distinctly the video that you brought out where you got the coffee cup and you're walking around. It felt like an international play in some regards.

Zoe: It was for Sephora in the US.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: So it was very— we had to very quickly and visually, um, and tonally present the brand in like 1 minute. And, uh, it's not something we were used to because you're gonna remember we were direct-to-consumer, so we had a direct line back and forth with the customer. And suddenly we're now going into a store and we're like with an American customer who's never heard of us and doesn't care. And we're trying to very quickly cement our tone in that way different. So it was a good challenge. I think we got there. I think we made it clear that we're larrikins and we're Aussie and we're silly, but our stuff actually works.

Josh: Did they point out anything that was sort of in your blind spot based on being in Australia?

Tommy: No.

Zoe: And I think America, that's why America is the first market we chose to go into because because the tone, the sense of humour does work. And obviously in England it would work. But I think if you were trying to crack the Asian market, perhaps a lot of the translation of our slang and all the makeup words that I make up, so many words that have got through. Yeah, it would be tricky.

Josh: Well, I was listening to Gemma Watts, her podcast with the founder of Bondi Sands. It was interesting how he was really talking about that Australiana or like pushing that The Australian tan, it's very trendy right now.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, was the Bondi one specifically?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, the Melbourne tan is horrendous. No, absolutely not.

Zoe: Imagine a product called St Kilda tan.

Josh: St Kilda tan, uh, looks like a latte, that sort of color. Um, and yeah, so what's, what's the, um, all your thoughts on their perception of Australia and what sort of products the Australian market make. And I guess the other point is like Rode, the microphone brand, which is all these mics, they actually have a fancy on the O. It looks like some sort of like Swedish European sort of thing as a way to look more Euro. They're an Australian, they're based in Sydney, they manufacture in Sydney. What was that for you? What was the thought process for you with that?

Zoe: It was funny because ABEAUTY, which is the thing now, which is like because it started with K-beauty, which is Korean beauty, and Koreans sort of changed the whole skincare market around a couple of years years ago, and now A-beauty is a big thing, which is great for us and Frank Bod and other Aussie brands, because Australian beauty is having a moment. And when people think of Australian beauty, they think of, you know, Kakadu plum, you know, domestic ingredients that we use from like— I think they think that it's just we go out and get some shrubs and put them up like this, and there's a lifesaver and a kangaroo walks past. Like, it was actually funny to see some of the articles written because they're still using the tropes from like Crocodile Dundee.

Josh: Yeah.

Zoe: Um, but perfect for shrimp on a barbie. Exactly. But our skincare is so sophisticated that they appreciate it and they like it and they're talking about it and using it. So we, we're grateful.

Josh: What does premium mean?

Zoe: Premium?

Josh: Yeah. To you as a brand.

Zoe: Oh, um, the go-to? Yeah. Oh, I don't think of us as a premium brand. I think of us as a premium brand internally because our, our quality control and our products and our ingredients are of such high standards. But in terms of where we placed ourselves in the market and our price point, we wouldn't be considered premium.

Josh: Yeah, it's interesting because like so much of that is also just like marketing as well. Like the difference between premium—

Zoe: like you'd be using the same product, we could use the same vessel and the same lotion and change the label and we could call ourselves premium and charge $40 more. But I came into Gotu going, I just want skincare to be easy for people and I want it to be accessible and relatable, and you don't get that when you're charging $90.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely. Zoe Foster-Blake, hello. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Thank you for coming on the show.

Zoe: We can eat these now. Yeah, off camera.

Josh: Well, yeah, that's the thing. It's like we've had some pretty crazy stuff that we've eaten on Fat Fridays, which is shrimp on the barbie.

Zoe: Oh yeah.

Tommy: No, no, I haven't done that yet.

Josh: But thanks for coming on the show.

Zoe: My super pleasure.

Josh: If you want to send us an email, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. We don't get many emails, so we respond to it. Well, we now respond to them. There was a time about a week where we weren't actually getting emails.

Tommy: We stuffed it. Zoe, recommendation book. I know you like recommending.

Zoe: What are you reading at the moment? Well, Small Giants for people in marketing business. And I've just finished Three Women by Lisa Toledo, which is fantastic. And it's amazing, but I won't be the only person to tell you that. And Euphoria, far out TV show.

Tommy: Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, recommend it?

Zoe: I would.

Josh: I'm not convinced.

Zoe: I would, but I'm sorry, this is the problem with expectation because everyone's like, it's the best one Tarantino's ever made. And I've got Kill Bill in my mind and I'm like, that's phenomenal. And it's just slow. It's a slower pace, less violence.

Josh: You don't like watching long films?

Zoe: Do you have a No, it's not that. I appreciate a good edit though. No, no, I do have a small attention span. I do, because I'm always tired by the end of the day.

Josh: If you've enjoyed the show, screen grab it, share it on Instagram so we know you're listening. Otherwise, we'll see you for Weekend Banter on Saturday.

Tommy: See you guys.

Josh: Catch ya.