Sam Cavanagh On Content Teams

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 416, and Sam Kavanaugh is in the building finally.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, clap it in, clap it in.

Tommy: Yeah, how you going, Sammy?

Sam: Oh look, I'm feeling really, uh, really confused. Yeah, very confused. I mean, I was asking a lot of questions when I got here because I'm driving in, I like to be prepared.

Josh: Yeah.

Sam: And I'm— and I was listening to some, some episodes and I was like, I've got no fucking idea what we're going to talk about.

Josh: Yeah, neither do we. That's good, that's the beauty of the show. Actually, well, to give you a sense of what it's like.

Sam: Yeah.

Josh: '97, we had a statement from Ben Fordham in regards to the show. We've got the Gronk Squad and all that sort of thing. There's been a bit of a war going on because we started giving people titles, i.e., Queen Gronk, King Gronk.

Sam: Sure.

Josh: And it backfired.

Tommy: Any time there's, you know, that hierarchy, it can cause problems.

Sam: I'm sure it does.

Josh: Well, you had— you interviewed Rhys Maston. I'm very familiar with Rhys Maston.

Sam: The producer. What was it like?

Josh: Producer Conference. So Sammy Cav is like the, uh, for people who aren't in Australia, is like the number one content head, I reckon, in Australia. Like, you had Hamish and Andy, you're the executive producer of Hamish and Andy.

Sam: I reckon even for people in Australia, it's worth saying, I wouldn't say number one content head.

Josh: I reckon you are. I think like, if you look at— if you, um, you are—

Sam: I'm a producer.

Josh: Yeah, but you, um, if you look at Hamish and Andy, which was the most successful radio show in Australia. That's fair to say.

Sam: Yeah, I know, but it's not fair to give me all credit.

Tommy: Well, you were there at the early days, the inception.

Sam: Sure.

Tommy: And the producer is an integral, crucial part of any team.

Sam: Thank you.

Tommy: It's the thing we have missing, even though Mr. 97 calls himself a producer.

Sam: And so anyway, he looks much more professional than I ever did with the hair and everything.

Josh: I mean, you had some pretty crazy hair.

Sam: That's true.

Josh: Um, but anyway, so, uh, you talked when you had Rhys Maston on stage, you were talking about the importance of naming your audience.

Sam: How would you remember that? I mean, how many— this is like 10 years ago.

Josh: Fans, not listeners, mate.

Tommy: We all remember it.

Josh: This is everyone ever saw it. Everything that we've built is based on fans, not listeners.

Sam: That's great. So I'm— so I get to take credit for the success of this.

Josh: Yeah, definitely.

Sam: And Amy Shenandy.

Tommy: Absolutely. And Rhys Maston.

Sam: And Rhys Maston.

Josh: That's actually going to be quoted on radio today, so watch what you say. So anyway, you talked about I think it was the Mastinators. What are they called? What are the— what was Rhys Maston's—

Sam: No, I'm sure it wasn't the Mastinators.

Josh: The little Mastinators?

Sam: The secret dirty Mastinators. Yeah, I think that was it.

Josh: But he had a crew for his fans. Yeah.

Tommy: So we've got the little, the little something.

Josh: There's the little monsters, which was '97. Can you have a look up what—

Sam: Google Rhys Maston fans name and see what comes up.

Tommy: Little Masters.

Sam: Yeah.

Josh: But anyway, so we landed on the Gronk Squad, and I think that where we went wrong was trying to differentiate levels and have hierarchy and all that stuff.

Sam: You had, you said some, you had a favourite child and your other kids are not wrapped with that.

Josh: But the thing is, how about calling out a favourite child and then they actually say, I don't want to be the favourite, I want favorites, because that's what's actually happened. Did you find out about the Reece Maston?

Mason: No, not yet.

Sam: Strange.

Tommy: Little monkey.

Sam: Reece Maston isn't— his SEO is not what it used to be.

Josh: Maybe we could do some SEO work. Can you read out, uh, the Ben Fordham statement, please?

Mason: Yeah. Boy, boys, here's some mail for you. Having listened to the latest podcast, I would like to clear something up. While I'm flattered being included in all the talk of kings and queens, I've never sought high office in this great community and have no interest in such a role. Yeah, it goes against who I am and what I stand for.

Sam: He's getting some heat. That's what this is about.

Josh: Why?

Mason: Well, let me explain. I'm just one of the Gronks. I'm an everyday Gronk, a Gronk amongst Gronks. All the other Gronks know what I'm talking about. I may be, I may be a proud and passionate Gronk, sure, but I'm still just one of the Gronks. That's what Gronks love about being a Gronk. It doesn't matter what we do or where we come from. When we're together in this place, we're all just Gronks.

Sam: Jesus, how much time? It's still going.

Mason: So spare me any special privileges. Leave me off the VIP list. I've got no interest in the pomp and pageantry. Just let me be a Gronk. That's all I've ever wanted. Let the others fight it out for the titles of king and queen because I'm happy where I am with all the Gronks just being Gronks. Peace, Ben Fordham.

Tommy: It was also his WPM, his words per minute, quite slow.

Josh: That was, that was beautiful.

Sam: So anyway, so where we've landed yesterday, I said, why are we talking about Rhys Masternates?

Josh: Well, because pointing out the fact that we've got our own Masternates now.

Sam: Okay, so now you, this is how you're gonna find it.

Tommy: We can't keep defaming his team.

Josh: I think it was the Mastinators.

Sam: So, I mean, I guess for me, this show makes less sense the longer I'm on it.

Josh: But anyway, all you need to know is that based on everything that happened, Gemma Watts is still the Queen Gronk. We got a bunch of pushback on that. I agree. That's all fine.

Sam: What has she done to get that?

Josh: She's been on the show probably 10 times.

Tommy: Many, many times. Big supporter, you know, spreading the word.

Josh: She organised for Mr. 97 to have his hair coloured by Australia's number one colorist.

Mason: Got it.

Sam: Okay.

Tommy: It's hard. It's hard to, you know, trump her. Yeah, it's not going to happen. Yeah. So what have you thought? Because it was your idea to remove it all.

Josh: I just want to say I was just over the bullshit. And so— but I'm happy with where it stands because the amount of flak that we got for removing hierarchies completely comfortable with the Gemma thing. Okay. Trev, Ben, Pete, fight it out. No, no more fighting. Anyway, that's the only advert that we had, so you don't have to worry.

Sam: No, it's important. I'm glad we got that.

Tommy: Sammy, so you were there at the very start of Homey Sandy. And you look at us, I'm not comparing us, the confusion you see.

Josh: Which one's Hamish and which one's Andy?

Tommy: Well, someone at Amy's work actually said you look like Hamish.

Josh: Oh really?

Tommy: That's insulting to Hamish.

Josh: I will take it. I know you will fucking take it. But will Hamish?

Tommy: No, the confusion you see with us and what we're doing in the space you've walked into and what we're creating.

Sam: Yeah.

Tommy: Early days, did it make sense with what was happening around Hamish and Andy?

Sam: Did it make sense? Um, look, I guess I'd answer that by going, trying to remember. Um, it was, oh, 16 years ago, for maybe 14 years ago, we, um, Hamish came in. I was working on the breakfast show on Fox FM and I was absolutely the, the shit kicker, um, the, the lowly assistant producer. And then, um, did they make you dye your hair blonde? And funnily enough, they didn't. And I would just like to say, Mason, that is bull bullying. If you want to talk to an actual professional about that.

Josh: We don't have an HR.

Sam: Yeah, I noticed that. I'm here to help.

Josh: Dyl is actually looking after all HR. I'm trying.

Sam: That's good. And yeah, so Hamish came in as a writer on the show. We'd been mates and he brought Andy in. They started doing some stuff at night and then it moved to Saturday mornings and then I was producing a drive show on Triple M at the time. And then on Saturday mornings we were doing Saturday Morning Hamish and Andy. And the beauty of it was we had about 2 and a half years with no one really paying any attention. We got to kind of just do our thing. I remember we would do the show, would go for 2 or 3 hours. I'm not really sure. And then we would go out for breakfast and celebrate pretty much every show. Like, it was so much fun and no one really gave a shit or paid any attention. So we got to make heaps of mistakes. We got to just try stuff. It was just not serious. There was no ratings. And I think that period of us working out how we operated as a team, working out what the show was while doing the show was, was, I think, really similar to what you guys are doing.

Josh: Yeah.

Sam: You know, you don't have the pressure of someone, you know, telling you this is what the show should sound like, this is what the audience should be, this is, you know, how you have to work together. You get to just— there's no way to learn that stuff better than just getting on and doing it.

Josh: Well, you're underplaying your involvement in the whole thing, but Jase Hawkins was on the show the other day and he was talking about— yeah, he literally took his whole team from New Zealand to Melbourne.

Sam: Yeah.

Josh: To start the breakfast show here.

Sam: Yeah.

Josh: I mean, it shows the importance of who's around you.

Sam: Well, radio is a team sport, like, you know, you're making 2 or 3 hours of live content every single day. If I always say you look at all successful shows and teams, the shows that are successful have really good teams behind them. And it's because you've got to rely on each other. It's such a weird thing to put 2 people in a room and then broadcast that to a city and they have to get along. They have to find each other charming and funny and charismatic. And if the team behind them isn't supportive and tuned into what they need, it's a shit fight real quick.

Tommy: What's interesting though, because in my head start with friendship is probably where to start. It's the important key to it all. But then there's the Tracy and Matt, that the rumours of they didn't like each other, you know, the— and even Jase brought up somebody who they did it remote. He worked on a show where they did it in different states because they hated each other.

Josh: We're a gossip-heavy show.

Tommy: But then the product somehow works. Which I think it's—

Josh: Do you have to be mates? Do you have to be mates?

Sam: You have to be friends? No, I mean, it depends on what you're trying to create. You guys are trying to create a lifestyle for yourself here, so you want to be friends, but you can make interesting content with people who disagree. I mean, I don't watch it, but there's a lot of reality TV out there that would suggest that people fighting is good TV. You know, like there's obviously an audience for that.

Tommy: Maybe we're looking at the metric of success. A successful breakfast show that doesn't like each other as French friends.

Josh: It sounds good through the speakers.

Tommy: It sounds great through the speakers. I mean, for me, that's not success. I've working. You probably got me the job in Shepparton, putting in some good words.

Sam: You're welcome.

Tommy: You definitely saved me the job once when you get a call from my boss. We won't go there.

Sam: What was that about? Oh, we should go there.

Josh: I could call the police.

Tommy: No, no, no, no.

Sam: What did you do?

Tommy: I was with Candy still on that show and it just, it wasn't.

Josh: You were being a baby.

Tommy: It wasn't that. It wasn't going well. But then she called you, the GM of the business called you and you had to tell her, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop.

Sam: That's right.

Tommy: Stop.

Sam: That's right.

Tommy: Because she was yelling.

Sam: She was really annoyed at you. What the fuck has Tommy done in Shepparton to upset people so much?

Josh: Do you remember what it was or no?

Tommy: It just wasn't working.

Sam: No.

Tommy: And I think it was just dysfunctional.

Sam: But I don't think you were the most dysfunctional part of that.

Josh: I mean, how do you, if there is a team that's dysfunctional, how do you identify what the issue is and actually resolve it?

Sam: I just like a good blaming session.

Josh: Yeah, we do Blame Mondays. Yeah, what's today? Today's Tuesday.

Tommy: We missed it too.

Josh: Oh dear, we could do it as a special.

Tommy: Um, we'll save you, Sammy.

Sam: Thank you. Um, so what was the question?

Josh: Like, how do you identify, you know, if there's a dysfunctional team? How do you fix it?

Sam: Okay, well, there's no short answer to that. I, I have worked with lots of teams that have been going through problems. And generally I try to, I try to get some consensus around what is the show we're trying to make every day. Like if you can get the team agreeing on this is the sort of show we want to make and then get them agreeing on this is the sort of team we want to be involved in and it's kind of objective and everyone agrees on that, then it just feels a lot less personal. So if you're like, okay, well, that's what we've agreed on, that you know, this is, this is the sort of content we're going to bring every day. These are the sort of conversations we're going to have. This is how we're going to deal with it when, um, when we get the shits with each other. Because I mean, like, if you're in a breakfast show, like, just think about the sleep deprivation, you know. Like, you did it. It's, it's, it's so easy to get the shits. Like, so if you haven't had a conversation when you're kind of awake and, um, it's not in the heat of the moment about here's what we're going to do when things go bad. It's no wonder that it gets toxic really quickly. So I facilitate lots of conversations like that. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it gives teams just something to look at that's external. So when they're feeling frustrated or annoyed or like they're not being heard, there's just something you can come back to that's in black and white that you've agreed on at a time when things weren't bad.. And that often helps people have better conversations.

Tommy: It's hard when things aren't working either from a success metric point of view. Like if you're not getting the ratings and you're annoyed with each other, like you could see how that would—

Sam: spirals real quick.

Josh: We also need good leadership. Like we've got a bunch of people who listen who are on regional breakfast shows and things like that. If they're, say, talent and they're feeling these issues, how do you do it from— because I guess you're looking at from that leadership perspective, can a single person within an on-air team make that change?

Sam: It's really hard, but I mean, the thing I always come back to is these conversations. So if you're talking about having conversations with someone you're annoyed at, right, those conversations are a skill that you aren't— it's not an innate thing. It's something you need to practice. It's something you need education around. It's ridiculous to say to a breakfast show that's not getting along, you guys just need to sort this out. Yeah, like it's a little bit like saying you guys just need to be a lot funnier.

Josh: Yeah.

Sam: Or you need to speak Japanese like it's a skill.

Tommy: All the advice he gave us when he walked in.

Sam: But it's a skill that, that if you haven't had any practise or training in, it's, it's, it's not going to work. So the approach to that would be if you are a regional breakfast show and it's not working, it's like, where am I going to get that education? How am I going to practise those conversations? I think that's, that's where I would start. And, you know, the success of Hamish and Andy is absolutely— they put the effort in to all the off-air shit, like all the difficult things of, of making stuff together and having creative conversations all day, every day. Like, they put the effort in to getting all of those skills right as well as their performance skills and comedy skills and writing skills and everything else.

Tommy: Was the vision there? Was the long-term vision there?

Sam: No, I don't think there was any long-term vision other than we had worked on dysfunctional teams and knew that that's not what we wanted.

Mason: Yeah.

Sam: You know, so we'd worked within teams where people didn't get along and we saw how unfun that was.

Josh: Yeah.

Sam: And so we fumbled our way through trying to create a better environment, I guess, and None of us came into this knowing anything, but we figured it out along the way because we knew what we didn't want.

Tommy: So it's funny, these creative jobs, there's a, there's a real piece of self-development in them.

Sam: You learn how to— that's a really good point—

Tommy: lean into uncomfortable conversations.

Sam: Do you know what it is? I think about this a lot, and I think it's because in a creative team, it's much less clear— there's a better way to put that sentence— but it's never clear what's right or wrong.

Josh: Yeah.

Sam: So Josh could come in and say, we should do a show on pets, and you could come in and say, I think that's really boring, and you're both right.

Josh: So yeah, if one's more right than the other, I'm definitely more right. But if you love animals, you fucking idiot.

Sam: But because it's creative, like if the conversation was, if this was a business that was selling cups, you know, yeah, it's kind of, it's not personal, and the success metric isn't, you know, what's funny or what's more interesting, it's what's going to sell more. So it's— I think it's easier to facilitate through those conversations. But you're right, if it's a creative thing, so much subjective, multiple truths.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So does that mean that as a producer, is it then your role to say, okay, Tommy, you're saying this, Josh, you're saying this, this is actually what's right?

Sam: No, no, I would never pretend that I know what's right.

Josh: So how do you actually get to a conclusion?

Sam: Um, in those conversations, I'm just trying to make sure everyone's hearing what each other's saying and, um, and, and trying to be one step removed and going, I think what you're actually saying is this, but this might be how it's being heard, or this is how it feels when you say that. Or, I mean, fuck, I'm not a psychologist or anything like that, but yeah, no, I'm not trying to decide what's right. I'm just trying to get people into an environment where they can actually have a conversation with each other.

Tommy: Over years you see you're testing and learning with ideas. So you're seeing what lands, what sticks, what doesn't. Is there markers, do you think, for a good idea? Like for me personally, I know the videos that have gone viral. I had a feeling about them. I just was convinced in some way. I was like, fuck, this is great. And I've had that same feeling across the 3 ones that I've done. And I don't know how to quite articulate it. It's like a thought about the idea that I become obsessed with.

Josh: And I was like— It's the chicken and egg thing too.

Tommy: I'm loving it. I'm loving it.

Josh: Which comes first? Is it the great idea or the passion that you bring to it. So you actually execute it and you put it out in the world as well.

Tommy: Have you seen, in terms of identifying a good idea?

Sam: Look, I've got lots of ideas about it. There's no science or there's no exact science to it. But I would say if you looked at those 3 videos, you would easily be able to draw comparisons between the 3 around, it's not just your enthusiasm. If our enthusiasm was all, that took for an idea to be successful, then it would be easy. But if you looked at those 3 ideas, there would be some kind of creative points that would be similar between the 3. And then absolutely the effort you put behind it is the difference between things being successful or not. But, you know, there'd be some sort of creative tension the way you set the idea up, the payoff. There'd be things in there that would be similar. Absolutely.

Josh: I think.

Tommy: Yeah, it definitely is. I mean, what I liked about the ones I'm referring to, I tested and I, and I tested some of my thinking around length and how long things should be and how it's drawn. And, and I, and I went against it on purpose and they landed, you know, a longer video worked. Yeah, it's like when everyone's telling you shorter, shorter, shorter. And so this is where it— I'm— the confusion you feel about what we're doing is what we feel in some circumstances, in some instances, because I think it relates to this creative world where a lot of us are now living in where it does make sense. Yeah, but we're feeling it, we're feeling, we're vibing it out and we put, and we're putting our foot forward and trying.

Josh: And I guess if you look at it through that sort of industrial black and white lens, I think so many things, creative, awesome things wouldn't happen, right? Because some of the best stuff doesn't make any sense at all.

Sam: You know, this being one. Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, Avarto as a brand, you know, early days, like, do they pay you to wear those jumpers?

Josh: No, it's just very extremely comfortable.

Sam: Well, I'm just reckoning, how many years have I known you?

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah. For what, it would be 7 years, something?

Sam: More than that. When was Fifi and Jules?

Josh: Yeah, 2012.

Tommy: Were you wearing it at—

Josh: Nah, nah, you weren't.

Sam: You were wearing a jumper that was exactly the same.

Josh: Yeah, I haven't really changed that much.

Sam: You haven't. But I feel like your glasses are a bit more snazzy.

Josh: Yeah, these are actually Steve Jobs, the specific one.

Tommy: Yeah, he doesn't wear creative And he doesn't wear snapbacks anymore.

Josh: No, because he looks about 2 years old when he wears a snapback.

Sam: What about that photo you put on Instagram?

Josh: Oh, from Thailand.

Sam: Wow.

Josh: Yeah.

Sam: My biggest question around that photo is, and this might be too personal to answer, but were you with Bree then?

Josh: Yeah.

Sam: So did Bree have her own challenges at that time or?

Josh: Not like crazy, other than having me as a boyfriend.

Tommy: What's fascinating is Bree says she doesn't remember.

Josh: Like that. Yeah, so it was just a bad photo. Is Bree religious?

Sam: No. Are you trying to figure this out?

Tommy: Well, knowing Bree, like, they got together— my personality?

Sam: Well, I mean, I'm not sure.

Tommy: They got together when they were 15.

Josh: Okay, yeah, 16. 16.

Tommy: Yeah. And so it's a lot.

Sam: Did you make her sign some sort of 10-year contract?

Josh: It's the only way to do it. Long-term commitments. I think it was. I mean, the interesting thing is you look back at these things and these things creep up on you, right? Like, because these—

Sam: is that how she describes it?

Josh: Well, I think it's like this incremental— it's this incremental thing, right? Where it's like, it's the day to day.

Sam: You're talking about what?

Josh: Your weight. Your weight. Right. And so I think that because of that, I think I'm constantly aware. And that's why I think with the show, like, part of it is just showing up every day is because we know that those little incremental things actually have these massive impacts that we can actually see, especially because we're in it. You had a big life change after spending, you know, a good portion of your adult life in radio. Yeah. You decided to try something completely different. Went to Thinkabel.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: What was that experience like?

Sam: It was amazing. So Thinkabel is, is this incredible creative advertising agency not too far from here. And yeah, look, I'd been producing radio shows, like a day-to-day radio show for 16 years, and I'd done lots of other things. Like I've had companies, I've, you know, I've got a little podcast network as well.

Tommy: Um, you've got a criminology degree?

Sam: I have criminology degree. Have you been Wikipedia-ing?

Tommy: No, no, no, I just— I know, I know these things.

Sam: Um, so like, I mean, I just say that I've been on boards, I've tried to not be too in the bubble, but I wanted to do something different. So yeah, went over as head of production at Thinkabel. And it's very hard to put into words just how much you learn when you change industries. Like, it's like learning another language. It was— even though lots of my skills were really transferable in advertising, and Thinkabel is really setting itself up to try and break the model of what an advertising agency is and does, and are really focused on, you know, multiplatform content solutions, not as well as traditional advertising. And so, you know, we did some amazing things. One of the first ideas I worked on, the idea was we would find Australia's coldest town, which is this place called Waratah in Tasmania. Have you seen the video?

Tommy: Yeah, I saw a little bit.

Josh: So I saw it because actually you had— was it Sunrise or Today Show?

Sam: Sam Mack on Sunrise.

Josh: Yeah. He was, he was as part of the whole thing. He actually went to the town, right?

Sam: Yeah. Yeah. So live on, live on Sunrise, we managed to get this whole town together and it's like this place is in on the west coast of Tasmania, population about 100. It rains 317 days a year. It's fucking cold.

Josh: I think I would like it. I think that could be because we're talking about me one day having sort of some form of ISDN line where I just sort of have my own studio.

Sam: You just kind of keep disappearing back into your own cave.

Tommy: Exactly. You said that creeps up on you. That Thailand photo will be back.

Josh: No, because I'll be walking.

Tommy: No, it's raining, mate.

Josh: You don't want a fucking raincoat. Anyway, come on. It sounds beautiful.

Sam: It's not. And the whole idea was we would surprise them with a holiday to the Gold Coast, but they had to leave immediately. So thinking through the logistics of getting 70 people on camera, on live TV, ready to go and get on a private plane in 2 hours' time.

Josh: It's got a radio vibe with the music.

Sam: Massively. Yeah. So, you know, and then they had this incredible weekend on the Gold Coast. We filmed the whole thing, turned that into social content.

Josh: It was for Accor, was it?

Sam: Accor Hotels. Yeah. So that was a good example of getting to come in and problem solve in a whole new industry in a whole new way. Of how are we going to do this? How's it going to look? How are we going to get people? Like, what if people turn up and they've forgotten their medication or they've left their dog at home? Or, you know, how do you give people enough information so they're prepared but don't spoil the surprise?

Josh: No deaths on the trip.

Sam: There was zero, zero deaths on the trip, I would like to report.

Josh: I mean, switching roles or industries, Seth Godin talks a lot about status and things like that. Was there a status shift that went on from you are the top dog at Southern Cross Australia doing business?

Sam: I would never describe myself as that.

Tommy: He barked a lot around the office.

Josh: As I said top dog, you said yes, yes, yes.

Sam: So what was the, what was the status shift? Oh, massive. I mean, I had to, and I knew going in, but it's like one thing to know it cognitively and it's another thing to actually live it. How, I mean, it wasn't so much about status, but but just the emotional exhaustion of not knowing what the fuck's going on. Yeah, all day, every day. Like, people are talking a language and you sort of get it, but you're constantly having to ask, what does that mean? What does that mean? How do I do that? Where do I find that? Who's that person? What was that you were talking about? Like, it's just exhausting. And, um, so I guess there was the status shift, but it was more just it took a long time to really be able to— for the simple things to be simple, you know what I mean? Like when you guys walk in here, there's things that you know how to set up that are just second nature to you. And there's heaps of my previous career that was second nature to me.

Tommy: Yeah.

Sam: And walking into a new industry, it's just this whole other part of your brain that turns on because nothing is second nature.

Josh: So you just go home every night exhausted.

Tommy: Yes.

Sam: Yeah, I could.

Tommy: And how long does it take? What's that?

Sam: I reckon I was just starting to get the hang of it 6 months in. Yeah, it's just starting to, as I say, for the simple things to be simple. So yeah, it took, it took a while, but in that time we still made some incredible things. Like it was this beautiful combination where they were very open and encouraging of the fact that because I hadn't, I didn't have the industry experience, I was able to see things in a different way. So that idea of how do you get a town from A to B, you know, I was able to bring a whole lot of different thinking into that because, you know, in radio you're constantly trying to figure out weird shit.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What's your visceral response to problems? Have you built a muscle where your reflex becomes, great, let's solve it? Or are you, you know, because I feel sometimes when we go into a video project, it's like, you know, it's like you can be sort of— it's like an injection of anxiety. Not that it happens all the time, but I've watched myself have that response regularly where I've needed to pull myself up to say problems aren't bad. Problems are just problems and we need to work out a solution.

Josh: Especially when you've been doing it for a while because you've seen all the problems, you've seen all the fuck-ups. So, there is something nice about like younger people coming into a thing without really any sense of like, oh, I haven't had anything go wrong.

Sam: Naivety. Yeah. Being naive is such a weapon. Like, I reckon a lot of the early stuff we did with Hey Machine Andy was— we were so lucky that we were naive and we didn't quite know or care how difficult things would be until we're in them. I remember very vividly the very first Caravan of Courage when we were over in America, and the whole idea was we would drive for sort of you know, 6 hours, 6 to 8 hours. And then we would try and record a whole lot of content, and then we'd try and edit some of that content. And then the boys would like do the live show and we'd insert packages and stuff. And we just massively underestimated how long it would take.

Josh: Yeah.

Sam: So the first day we're in this caravan park, it's like 3 in the morning. We've been going all day. The gear's not working properly. We're in a caravan. It's about 40 degrees. We're getting attacked by mosquitoes. And just going, we're about to do this for 2 weeks. This is only day 1. Oh no. And just there was a real moment of, oh, but look, we got through that. And I remember our tech, Will Armstrong. Did you ever meet him?

Josh: Yeah, Will's great.

Sam: Yeah, he was just amazing at trying to get all the gear to work. And, you know, we're trying to connect ISDN lines and stuff. Anyway, we got that show through and then just had a real kind of come to Jesus meeting around, okay, let's just be a little bit clearer with what are we trying to do every day because we just can't do— and the guys are trying to make a TV show at the same time.

Josh: So what are your tells when you're, uh, you know, the, the first day on a project when you're stressed? How do you notice personally?

Sam: That's a great question. Um, what are my tells when I'm stressed? Um, I tend to— I don't— I mean, I think live radio is a really good environment because it's, because it's so fast-paced and it's a bit disposable. Like it doesn't really matter. Like if you fuck something up, you get a chance to do something else the next minute. It's not like a video project where if we fuck this up, we sort of, it's gone and then yeah, we have to start again. So I don't get too stressed about things going wrong. I get stressed about, well, one of the things that was really stressful about about changing careers was this whole new relationship with clients was a really difficult thing to get my head around. Because like, when you're just making your own stuff, um, such a luxury. It is. Oh yeah, it is. But having to be just adding, adding a whole other layer of, um, bringing a client along for the journey was a, was a huge education. That was quite stressful.

Josh: So what are you doing? What does it look like? Are you breathing funny? You're waking up during the night?

Sam: Lack of sleep. Yeah, definitely. I went through a real period through that job of moving a town from one place to another, of just, just waking up at 2 in the morning. Okay, shit, we haven't thought about that. What if, what if one town person asks the other town person to look after their dog and then they both win the trip? Oh no, we haven't thought about that, you know. So lack of sleep. That's a big one.

Tommy: And what's the antidote? I don't know.

Sam: I actually went to the doctor yesterday. No shit. And said, I'm sort of struggling with sleeping a bit. And she prescribed melatonin.

Josh: Oh yeah. Have you tried that? Yeah, melatonin is good for like jet lag and things like that. Because it's sort of—

Tommy: What, sun releases melatonin?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Or ecstasy.

Josh: Something else. But there's, you can also, it's good to like get off the blue lights and shit on your phones and stuff before. At night.

Sam: No, I put the phone away for like an hour before I go to bed.

Tommy: So then it's the lack of sleep that then it just kind of compounds. Yeah.

Josh: And then, yeah, I feel like I was saying to 97 the other day, for me, I, I, uh, it's before I'm having the lack of sleep, but I, I'm stressing about the fact that I'm not going to sleep, which is the— yeah, which is like if I'm working late, I know I have to get up in the morning, I shouldn't be tired yet, I'm fucking ready for it. I'm like, I'm gonna be so tired tomorrow.

Tommy: Yeah, our ass baby's made for living this lifestyle, like living that great question, snowball effect of no sleep, stress.

Sam: Have you read, um, Lost Connections?

Josh: No.

Sam: That's a fucking great book. Lost Connections. Um, I've forgotten the guy's name.

Tommy: Um, we'll pull it up.

Mason: Uh, Johann Hari.

Sam: That's the one. Um, so he talks a lot about the— how the modern world is creating depression and anxiety and how, um, you know, the way humans evolved over the last million years was a certain way around certain connections to community, certain work-life balances, connections to nature, et cetera. And how we've just stripped so much of that out of how we live our day-to-day lives and how we treat depression and anxiety as something that needs to be treated with medication and stopped when it's actually a very reasonable response to a lot of things that to a lot of the ways that we're living anyway.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So I guess within radio, mental health seems like it's a big issue, especially on-air talent. People are wired. How do you, how do you grapple with that, which is people who can be seen as doing fantastically well or whatever, but they're personally crumbling? What's your responsibility?

Sam: Really good question as a producer. Yeah. Um, well, I look, a lot of what I've I talked a lot about as a radio producer was a focus on show and team. You probably remember from the, um, from the slide 6.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Sam: So, you know, that was always my approach as a producer, that you always had to put as much effort into the show, into the team, as you did into the show. So if the show is the content and the thing that you're making every day, and then you have to put an equal amount of attention and energy into the team which is the people you're working with and the conversations that you're having and, and how healthy is the environment that you're working in. And just thinking about those two things, because I think radio is certainly guilty of taking people who are different, and, and what makes them great performers is their ability to push boundaries and think differently and, and often can have pretty complicated personalities. And then we'll profit on them being really fantastic performers on the air. But so we've got to also make sure we manage the downside of that, you know, and manage what that means when those people are off air and feeling vulnerable and insecure and all of those things.

Tommy: Yeah. Isn't it an amazing thing? Like, you think about a rock star musician that brings someone so much joy, and so from the outside, you just— they're experiencing a version But then we find out that they're suffering and they're completely devastated with their own existence, right? It's so— that's so hard to get your head around.

Josh: Yeah. Well, it seems like teams, like having a great team, to your point, Sammy, is, uh, the answer to that, right? Is it like—

Sam: I don't know if it's the answer, but I think it's part of the solution.

Tommy: Well, I think it's like, for you and I, Josh, the meditation stuff I've been doing has definitely been my part of making this work. I think—

Josh: what sort of meditation are you doing?

Sam: Sam Harris's app. Same.

Tommy: Waking up.

Sam: I've been doing that every day.

Tommy: So good.

Sam: So good.

Tommy: I just worked it out. I've done 27 hours because you can cheque your minutes.

Sam: Oh yeah, I should check.

Tommy: It's awesome.

Sam: You can see it's not a competition.

Josh: This isn't Strava.

Sam: Whatever. You're fucking into it.

Josh: You're missing the point. I'm doing one now.

Sam: Do you know what? Why do you think that that app— because I've tried lots of different sorts of meditation and that one really stuck with me.

Tommy: I've always liked Sam. I like his voice. I think I respect him as an academic. And so I—

Josh: but is it a bit of a Trojan horse to meditation? Because I've got the app and I'm like fucking preparing to—

Sam: you know, I think it worked for me. Like, I've done Transcendental Meditation courses where you spend ridiculous amounts of money.

Josh: And how much is it? It's like $1,200, I think.

Sam: No, I think it was like $2,500.

Tommy: Can you tell us your word? Don't you come up— don't you get a word given?

Josh: We said mastinator 4 times, he can't say it again.

Sam: And look, I did that for a little while, but it just didn't stick. But I think Sam Harris, it's that for people who have very analytical brains, he gives you a guided meditation, but he's also giving you a bit of an education around what is meditation at the same time.

Tommy: Yeah.

Sam: So that part of your brain that's always, when you're meditating, going, I don't know if I'm doing this right. Should it be like this? Oh, fuck. Oh, fucked it. No, I'm not doing it. Oh, this is a waste of time. Yeah. Whereas his guided meditation just keeps you I guess, feeling confident that you're, that you're learning what meditation is while you're doing it.

Tommy: Yeah, because there are all those things are appearances in, in consciousness. Like Mr. 97 saying, I'm thinking about my breathing. So he says, identify that first moment of your breath, but then you start thinking too much about trying to find that. But then that is a part of the whole process. That's a part of this world we live in, consciousness, and things are happening and all the emotional responses are no notifications within consciousness that we're identifying.

Sam: So what difference has it made for you doing that?

Tommy: I think, um, I think it's definitely— and one of these things he talks about, what are the benefits of meditation, and it's this alarm system that you've created. And when you have a practise that you do daily like meditation, or like when, um, uh, You know, you try. So basically you're becoming aware of your shortfalls or those responses that you have that come up naturally, anger or all of those things. So, I think I've become more aware of those responses that come up and not letting them take hold of me and then how I act.

Sam: Yeah.

Josh: Well, and I think that that's like the thing with the team dynamic. Like I reckon Tommy doing meditation has probably been the biggest impact on my life.

Mason: Wow.

Josh: In the past like 3 months. And it hasn't—

Sam: What was he like before?

Josh: Well, no, it was more— it wasn't— the funny thing is the way that Tommy's meditate— Tommy has done meditation doesn't mean that he was a problem and he's fixed it. He's worked out how to deal with me. So even though I'm fucking still outrageous and need to meditate, he doesn't respond to my anxiety.

Sam: He doesn't react.

Josh: And yeah, and so we can then have a conversation. And so there's like, we used to have blowups all the time. We don't have like, it's just not a thing anymore.

Tommy: I think also, Sammy, one of the great benefits for me has been those moments where you're thinking about work or you're feeling anxious about what you've got going on and just being able to step back from that. And then just, I've been able to get out of those moments much, much quicker.

Josh: Well, we used to love to lean into shit. Like we were like, um, And yeah, Bri was blown away because when she used to like work on the odd occasion at our office, she would see like Tommy and I could be discussing something and we could spend 4 hours and it could take our whole, like half of our day being like, why we're doing it this way. Because we straight away blow it up to, if we do it this way, it means all about this, about the rest of our business. And we're fucking, everything's blown up, right? It's like a simple email. We didn't get back to that email. This means this. And now this is crisis, right? And so we're just not having any crisis moments anymore. Everything like— and part of it is the team.

Tommy: Until the liquidators get here.

Josh: Exactly. But they're not here until August 15th.

Sam: So you're saying, so Tommy meditating basically means you don't have to?

Josh: Well, that's what Bree going to a psychologist means. I don't have to either.

Sam: So Josh is feeling— Well, I've got to go twice a week and Based on Mr.

Josh: 97's hair, but you're obviously out of context.

Sam: It makes a lot of sense.

Josh: It makes a lot of sense. You were talking about Think About, that was, you know, 7 or 8 months of your life.

Sam: Yeah.

Josh: You've got a great opportunity with SEA. How much can you talk about that?

Sam: A little bit. So yeah, SEA is essentially doubling down in their investment in on-demand audio. So they are, which is podcasting, streaming, I don't need to tell you guys. And as part of that, they've asked me to help come on board and create some new content. So I haven't started yet. Don't start. This is my week off. So this is my week of doing Organized August.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Oh, great. Yeah. Organized August.

Sam: This is fucking great.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: He actually gives me a semi-job. He's like, Organized August.

Sam: I had a big day yesterday I can talk about. But yeah, so I'll be joining the team there to just really help help explode that out and figure out.

Josh: So what are they thinking about? Like, is it obviously crime podcasts are going massive? Like, is that how much is that on your radar?

Sam: It's too premature for me to talk about what they're thinking about. Like, I haven't started until next week, but in terms of my radar, I think it's really interesting that for a moment in time, the biggest podcast in the world was an Australian storey produced in Australia by an Australian. That was— it's just, you know, previously I would have thought that that was just such a local thing that would never work overseas, but it became the biggest podcast in the world for a couple of weeks there.

Josh: What is this? Teachers Pay Teachers. I mean, how do we— what I find interesting is those things feel like they can have that global audience. Say what we're doing at the Daily Talk Show, or even—

Sam: not as much.

Josh: Yeah, I know. I mean, I mean, 20% of it.

Tommy: Murder. We need to commit a murder.

Sam: Yeah, that's a good analogy.

Josh: I mean, You've got the criminology background, so you're, you're going to be primed to, uh, to do that crime podcast stuff. But I mean, the talk show style, I wonder how much opportunity there is to have a global audience.

Sam: Look, I, look, I think that what podcasting, what YouTube, what online content in general has shown us is that those geographic geographic borders don't exist in the way that we thought that they did.

Josh: You can be a gronk anywhere in the world.

Sam: You can be a gronk. I'm not sure you'd want to be.

Josh: No, you do.

Tommy: You actually got no choice.

Sam: But yeah, I don't think those geographic borders are what we think they are. I think that, you know, just as we've been consuming American and English content our whole life, there's nothing to say that, you know, we're fortunate to live in an English-speaking country. And I think that means our stories, our conversations, our content can live anywhere in the world if it's good enough.

Tommy: Hamish and Andy were on Jay Leno. Was that back in the day? Remember they were on US?

Sam: They did Jay Leno. Yeah, they did a couple of storeys on Jay Leno. One of the best things we did was with Christian O'Connell. We did a— we figured out that his show was on air at the same time. His breakfast show in London was on there at the same time as our drive show. So we did a simulcast where we broadcast for 2 hours live into both markets. It was a logistical headfuck, but but so much fun and listeners loved it.

Josh: Yeah, I think that that's the, that's the stuff that sticks with me when I think about like Hamish and Andy. It is those big moments. What are, if you were to think of your top moments in your mind of where you're the most proud.

Sam: Sure.

Josh: It might not be necessarily the biggest thing, but the ones where it's like—

Sam: Easily getting you two to surprise everyone and perform live on our last show in 2010. That's right.

Tommy: Hamish told the storey at 100.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Of getting on, getting, you know, the not being able to tell anyone.

Sam: It was amazing. So we figured out, so the boys were doing a tour around the country for our last week on air. And at the time we thought that was possibly going to be their last week doing Drive ever.

Josh: How much of a headfuck was that for you? Like, obviously when you're, you've got talent, there's renegotiations all the time. As a producer, are you constantly thinking about like, oh, is this going to be the final? There's probably 4 years.

Tommy: Not really.

Sam: No, we would just we were just doing it, you know, like we were too busy doing that. And I had a national role, so I was a national executive producer. So a lot of my energy was going into developing new shows, developing new producers.

Tommy: So crisis calls from Shepparton.

Josh: Yes. So you were— so this was the final, the final show of— do you remember what year?

Sam: 2010. 2010. And we figured out that you two were performing the night after in Melbourne and we'd booked the night after our Melbourne show. So on the Friday we were finishing in Melbourne at the Myer Music Bowl, which is for people outside of Melbourne, it's like a natural amphitheatre that holds about 5,000 people.

Josh: It's amazing. I saw Red Hot Chili Peppers.

Tommy: Oh dude, I was at that one too. It's one of the best venues for just feeling like you're outside. It's just the sound.

Josh: So cool. I felt like it was the closest I ever got to being a Triple M listener.

Sam: Got it.

Tommy: Okay.

Josh: Yeah. Headbanging.

Sam: Yeah. Very cool.

Josh: You have to watch the video, guys.

Tommy: Yeah.

Sam: And so Anyway, and we had a relationship with their head of PR, head of media and PR, who was this incredible Kiwi woman who we'd worked with about a year previously when we'd had them on the show just as a phone interview. And she'd kind of set that up and really pushed us to come up with a better idea for the interview. It was really, it was just a really good experience. And so I kind of just stayed in contact with her. And so when we realised that our show, our last show lined up with their Melbourne show at Etihad Stadium, I think, I think it was for their 360 tour. We just started putting the feelers out thinking this is such a fucking long shot. But we were booking live artists and actually our big get on that show was to get John Farnham to perform You're the Voice on that show. And that took probably 6 months of work, of working with his, with John's manager Glenn Wheatley and just, just chipping away for 6 months to get them feeling comfortable that this is something they should do. And they finally agreed, which was amazing. And then, yeah, and then we got this phone call probably 3 days out because the boys were already on the— I was still in Melbourne, I think they were over in Adelaide, and get this phone call from this woman and she's like, Sam, I've got some news for you. The Irish rock band U2 will perform at, uh, on your show. And we're like, fuck. Um, but she said, look, the only way—

Josh: Do you remember where you were when you took the call?

Sam: Completely. I was sitting— the show had just finished and I was sitting in the studio in Melbourne. Um, and I'd sort of gone out of the studio to take the call. And then she said, but look, the only way we can do this is if it's a surprise. Like, the only— if we— if it becomes a publicised thing, it just won't work. It needs to be a surprise moment. Um, so you know, no one else can find out about it because if it gets out, we'll just have to walk away from it and no one will ever know. So, okay, so how do you— so remember on the day, you know, so we told our head of engineering, Andrea Cole, um, so because she had to work with the band's engineering team just to get all their gear, um, and they did it like a stripped-back performance of a few songs. And then we told our boss, Grumpy Dave, But we hadn't— we were so terrified that this will leak and it won't happen. You know, they'll just walk away and it'll be— no one will ever believe us.

Tommy: So could you write down on a piece of paper how many people knew at that point? Like you just—

Sam: Yeah, it would have been literally, I think the CEO knew, Grumpy Dave knew, and the head of engineering knew. Okay. And you said, yeah, of course. Sorry. And Hamish and Andy and myself. And anyway, they took the band turn up. You two turn up before our drive show starts. So it's live to air between 4 and 6, and they've got a green room. And, you know, we couldn't even put U2 in the green room and stuff. Like, it was just so—

Tommy: 2U? Yeah, 2XU.

Sam: No one will ever get that. Um, and I remember the general manager at the time— the band had turned up, Hamish and Andy and myself had gone.

Josh: Had you done anything on air to say it would be great to get U2? Uh, was there any ad or anything?

Sam: No, I don't think we had. I don't think we dared to do that. Yeah. And so, yeah, the band turned up and they were lovely and generous and they wanted to really understand what the cultural significance was of Hamish and Andy and how they were fitting into it. And, and the boys had written this really funny song called We Are Better Than U2. And the whole idea was we were going to perform that and then U2 would come on sort of singing We Are Better Than U2 and then sort of take over.. And so we tried to, you know, we'd explain that to them and they were just so humble and listening and, you know, just wanted to get it. They also, I remember really clearly, wanted to make sure they didn't upstage John Farnham, which was— wow, which was so interesting. Like, their management were just really clear around, you know, it's really important that we can do this, but we don't want to—

Josh: no king gronks.

Sam: No king gronks. Exactly right. They understood that. That how important to Australians John Farnham was and that he was performing last on the show and that that's how it should be. Anyway, I thought that was really interesting. But, and yeah, I remember our general manager coming around at some point going, Sam, 2 are here. I know they're going to perform. He's like, what? Like, it was fucking cool. Like, you can't— the element of surprise, you just can't. Like, if we had promoted that for 3 weeks, it just never would have had the same impact. But a surprise is just— yeah.

Josh: So is that the lesson? Like, is the— uh, because I know, like, having been in radio, there's a lot of, um, oh, you leave the room, I want to talk about this thing. And even 97 and I have worked out that's like, oh, if he wants to bring something, then it's great to, um, bring it to one of us so we can have one, one reaction, conversation. Yeah. I mean, what, what are the lessons from specific moment?

Sam: There's so many. I mean, to me it was just as a producer watching how their whole team operated, how their, their, their road, their tour manager, this guy Brian Seller, and Francis, who was their PR and media liaison, just, just the— I mean, they're really smart people, but they're really just very humble and they like, you know, they've got good manners. They, you know, they— it's about saying thank you. It's about, it's about being very culturally sensitive, you know, to what environment that they were coming into. And, you know, they just did things well. They just, they were like, let's only do this if it's going to be really great.

Tommy: I mean, it might not be that hard to impress people, right? Like, so, so if people meet I know Hamish and, you know, Andy, I've met them a bunch of times. When you meet them, they're kind, they give you engaged conversation for whatever moment you have with them. They're big, tall, you know, they've really got a presence about them, which I don't feel like they're— seems like they're going out of their way. They're just being great people. I think Jules Lund is the same. You're the same. I mean, you're all best friends, right? It's like, it's, um, and then so when you when you expect something like from a rock star, it's like you can rattle people quite quickly by just being the thing that most people want and expect because maybe they have a different expectation on you.

Josh: Yeah, I wonder that, like, Sammy, that perspective or that way of doing business, how, how do you think like us as a show, like how could we bring that culture to our team from the beginning? How do you start that?

Sam: Like what are, what are the, the few things, the actions?

Josh: Maybe it's how we have our relationship with— like, we're constantly thinking about our guests and how we can better communicate with our guests.

Sam: You know what, one really simple thing, and Jules Lund taught me this, was just the art of saying thank you. Like, taking time to thank people well is such a simple thing to do that goes such a long way. Like, you know, Jules and I did a late night show before I was in radio he won a competition. He probably told this story, but anyway, it was a late night show. It was like at 10 o'clock at night to midnight on Tuesday nights or something. No one was listening, but we treated it as if it was a big deal because we didn't know any better. And that's all you can do.

Josh: I mean, that's the other thing we talk about is just like delusion helps.

Sam: Totally. Yeah, we thought, fuck, we're on Fox FM, this is massive. It wasn't until years later I realised that not so much, but Anyway, and then after that, Jules made these cards and we wrote a thank you card to everyone that had helped us just make the show. And it's only now that we realise how generous people were actually being. Like, you know, people had actual jobs and they were helping these kids do this late night show. And, and, you know, someone who we'd given one of those cards to came up to me me a few years ago and just said, you know, I've still got that card where you guys said thank you. And I just think it's such a simple thing and it just creates a spirit of generosity. You get more out of it than other people. But yeah, it's a simple one.

Tommy: Old school. Yeah, it's just being old school.

Josh: Exactly. Well, yeah, I think that it's something that can easily be looked over when you're just constantly producing, moving to the next thing.

Tommy: We tell our kids to say thank And then you lose it. Thank you. And then you forget to do it as an adult.

Josh: Um, before you go, what are you excited about in the next week? You know, like starting a new role. Yeah, I find it's like, yeah, or talking Organized August, getting everything organized. What is it for you? What are you doing?

Sam: So which, next week or this week?

Josh: No, this week. Preparation.

Sam: I did a great Organized August yesterday. Um, I took my car to get serviced. I, um, went to the doctor to get some stuff sorted that I needed to get sorted. It. Did a blood donation. Oh, great. Which I've been putting off for a long time. Did the supermarket shopping. Yes, it's probably not as impressive. Today I'm going to— we've got a meeting with a financial planner.

Josh: Oh, great.

Sam: Yeah, you should have him on. That would be a good conversation. Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, so Katie and I are doing a session. My partner and I are doing a session with a financial planner. Again, something I've put off. So I just wanted to take a week between finishing one job, starting another job, all that life admin shit that you just put off. I'm trying to tick it all off.

Josh: I like how you just sort of— once you actually work out what you have done, it can sometimes be underwhelming. I caught myself on Sunday doing the washing. I'm like, oh, Organized August. I'm like, actually, who normally does this?

Sam: That's just what people do. You don't need to go and give yourself a cookie for doing your own washing.

Josh: It doesn't need a hashtag.

Tommy: Do you think, Sammy, the new job at SEA will have less of that feeling of swimming, understanding what you're doing when you're back in your own?

Sam: I think it'll be— what's interesting about it, it's a really familiar environment but a really unfamiliar, undefined challenge. Like, you know, working in a traditional media business and trying to work out how that business future-proofs itself and, um, and plans for the future of content is its own challenge. But yeah, absolutely, the environment will be much more familiar and the people, you know, there's some awesome people I'm really looking forward to working with again.

Josh: Are you getting your old office back?

Sam: No, I'm not. I don't know. I don't actually quite know where I'm going to be or what I'm going to do.

Tommy: I know it's in the digital area.

Josh: Yeah. How do you know?

Tommy: No, I'm joking.

Josh: So I was right. 2 metre by 2 meter.

Sam: Box.

Tommy: Maybe.

Josh: I mean, that's— SEA has come a long way in regards to digital. Like, you think about the perspective of, yeah, when I was the, you know, web guy Josh versus where it is today. It's amazing.

Sam: It's funny how SEO as a company has come such a long way, but yet you're still wearing the same jumper. Not much, not much. It's interesting though.

Josh: Yeah.

Sam: Okay, that's something.

Josh: Uh, Sammy, thanks for coming on the show.

Sam: Thank you guys. Um, and, and, you know, congratulations on this. I think that this is um, just, it's an awesome success that you, you really just created something from nothing. I love that it's undefined and you're comfortable with the ambiguity of it, but I think you're building something really special. So congratulations.

Josh: Thanks, Sammy. It's a daily talk show. HypeTheDailyTalkShow.com is the email address if you want to send an email. Also, uh, take a— uh, don't, don't watch that.

Sam: Uh, this year Interviewing Sam Kavanaugh.

Josh: If you've, uh, if you've listened or watched, take a screen grab on Instagram, uh, tag us up so we can see that you're, uh, listening and we can say thank you. We might even send a card.

Sam: That'd be lovely.

Josh: It's a Daily Talk Show. We'll see you tomorrow, guys.

Tommy: See you guys.