Podcast Tryhards

Tommy: It's a very low barrier to get into the Gronk Squad.

Josh: That's crazy! We've committed to do The Daily Talk Show for 10 years.

Tommy: Say hi, guys.

Jess: Hi, guys.

Josh: Put it in the calendar. I'd just like to cheque the temperature in the room. I told you my squeegee story.

Tommy: It is outrageous.

Josh: Come on, let's go. It's The Daily Talk Show episode 1012.

Tommy: What is happening? What day is it? I don't know where I am.

Josh: It is Thursday.

Tommy: Fuck, the week has flown, hasn't it? Yeah, it's, uh, it's gone. Um, one thing I— you know when you read shit and you get a bit spooked? Not spooked, but you just start having an out-of-body experience realising how, uh, irrelevant you are in the scheme of the universe when you don't have a podcast. Exactly, exactly. No, no, no. Um, how's this for a headline? NASA spacecraft Voyager 1 detects persistent hum beyond our solar system. Have you heard this shit?

Josh: Soundos would hate that.

Tommy: I mean, it is a frequency that might not be like— they may have manipulated the frequency so it can be played back and heard because it is like this. It might be different to our ears, but the spacecraft— what, what's— so a few things. This spacecraft has been floating. There's no one in it, don't worry. It's been— it got launched in 1977. They thought this thing was going to last like, um, 4 or 5 years. It was built to last 4 or 5 years. It's fucking still there, 43 years ago.

Josh: And it's the opposite of the Daily Talk Show, this thing.

Tommy: Yeah, this thing's got fucking stamina, dude. It has gone beyond the solar system. So it took 20 or something, 20 years or something to get to the other side of the solar system.

Josh: How are they communicating? Have they got point-to-point? How are they communicating, I think, with the rocket?

Tommy: I think they have a good NBN connection. I don't know, it's some satellite. This is what blows my mind. How, how do we not know some things? How can't we cure cancer, but we can send a fucking spaceship to the other side of the solar system and the technology lasts 43 years and we're still picking up signals that it's sending back to us.

Josh: Have you ever thought, like, because I saw the headline, I was like, to be honest, if an astronaut said, oh yeah, there's a hum in space and it wasn't a headline, like, I wouldn't bat an eyelid. Like, does it mean anything to you about the hum thing?

Tommy: Just that it just has more questions than anything.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Where's it coming from? How's it, how's it created?

Josh: Is that you on the microphone?

Jess: Yeah.

Josh: Sorry, you just— Yeah.

Tommy: Who is Who is creating it? And is it an alien? Like, what? Or is it some other species? Like, it's crazy, dude.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. When you start looking at that type of content, it can definitely play with your mind a little bit.

Tommy: Yeah. I don't mind it though, because it then is like, what does it all mean? Yeah. What's the experience here? What are you? Last night I was playing hard with Bodhi.

Josh: What does that mean?

Tommy: We were just immersed in play. And the thing about children is that they want to play a lot. Like a lot of kids, like if you told, like if you came up to a kid and said, let's go and do play, like whatever their thing is. So Bodhi loves cars, he loves, you know, his little imagination, like watch this. Or some kid might like go outside or playing fucking a game, board game or something. But they're very in the moment with it. I was thinking like the opposite of adults. Like I watch myself and I'm not, and I have in the past been playing but not in the play. Who's that guy? Remember we were hearing about him? He's like this, he'd written some self-help book or something. He's like, He does play the, like, hours of focused play with his kid. Who was that? I think we were— This was on the podcast early days. We were talking about it.

Josh: There's a guy, Charlie Hoehn, I think.

Tommy: And that's not Charlie Hunnam, who Jess loves.

Josh: No. Charlie, he used to be the assistant for Tim Ferriss.

Tommy: Yeah, maybe.

Josh: And he had— There's a picture of like a kid, I think, with a baseball glove or whatever. It's like, A Life of Play. Yeah, that's like A Life of Play, like it's all about play. But it is, it's that one.

Tommy: What I find, there's a very, there's a correlation between things like meditation and anything you do. So, this is where the meditation stuff I do is like trying to take the practise outside of the formal practice. The formal practise sitting on a mat or fucking cushion, whatever, listening. But then outside of that, having the discipline to stop and try and actually, uh, point your attention and awareness to something. Which you see how it's like, as you get older, your mind just starts getting more cluttered. There's more things you're thinking about. Bodhi's not thinking about the hum from the outer space. Yeah, he's not thinking about his podcast finishing up. Yeah, he's just thinking about Hot Wheels. Yeah, it's quite a simple existence.

Josh: But that's— I think that's the appeal of golf. In all seriousness, like today when I was there, like I had a lesson and it's all about thinking less about like— And so, and the thing is, if you think about it, what you're doing is you're trying to make good contact with the club head on the ball. Like it's a very simple exis— Like talk about a simple existence. It's like, and the thing is, which I think this is very true to my personality. He's like, you're, um, you're trying too hard to have a good swing, but that's not actually a good— like, I'm going up and down and trying to control the club head. And so the idea is that if you imagine the, the bit of the, like, you know, the head of the club, the bottom of the club, you want to get it into the middle with the, the ball. The counterintuitive thing is the more— if you try and force it too much, if you try and aim it all up, it doesn't work. But if you can just trust the process of the swing. So the example being, um, I got a compliment where I, uh, he said, oh, can you just swing the golf club like, like softball, like it's like a baseball swing? So I do it. He said, have you played? I said I played table tennis. He said, you can tell. But the idea being that you don't think about, like, when it comes to table tennis or baseball or anything like that, you don't think about a bunch of the things that you can get trapped into with golf.

Tommy: With golf, you're like, okay, highly technical. Golf is more technical than table tennis.

Josh: But the, the interesting thing is that is the misconception of it in regards to— it's actually about just getting that swing, and it's got like getting too bogged down in, okay, my feet are here, I'm going to put my pressure on here. It's actually like, it's like throwing a ball, right?

Tommy: You intuitively know how to throw a ball, but that's from you, from when you're young. If you'd been playing golf since you were— actually, you have been, but there's, there's some kids that wouldn't think about any of that.

Josh: Exactly.

Tommy: And so they are intuitive. Surfing, I don't think about how I'm going to get myself up to to stand up, to go when the wave comes.

Josh: But beginners are probably like, yeah, one beat, two beat, hands up.

Tommy: Like, yeah, because you, yeah, you need to go through the paces. Yeah, it's like the podcast. You, early days, we were thinking way more about how the structure and who, how you'd hit it. Like, it's amazing we've scripted every episode of this show. We actually have. Jess laughed, and this is where that bit I wrote for you. Come in, Jess, come in, say the bit that I was wanting.

Jess: G'day. Sorry about the microphone. See it, chat?

Josh: Oh, that's okay. So, Jess is typing on her computer and there's a little bit of annoying sound, but it's okay.

Jess: But you know what? We're shutting the podcast down, so who cares?

Tommy: With that attitude?

Josh: Yeah, fuck off. And she criticised me so hard with how I announced it yesterday, by the way. Yeah, go on, Jess. What's the line?

Tommy: Yeah, what's the line? You need to deliver it clearly.

Jess: I don't even know what you guys are talking about.

Tommy: Wasn't listening.

Josh: Yeah, so this script— so TJ was just talking about the scripted stuff.

Tommy: Thanks, Josh, you nailed that.

Josh: I wrote that. Yes. And then I said, we—

Tommy: I said we've scripted every episode of the podcast, and then I said, Jess, can you come in with a line I wrote for you?

Josh: Oh my God, I'm so dumb. I thought you actually had a line for it. You're extending the joke. Is that what you're doing? Yeah, I actually thought that Jess had a line and I was pissed off that she didn't remember it.

Jess: No, Josh, I It was just a real— it was like yesterday when you just randomly went into telling people.

Josh: Sorry about that. I can't see your face, Jess. It's almost like Wilson from— Oh yeah. That show. What was that called?

Tommy: Home Improvement.

Josh: Home Improvement. My dad's favourite. My dad's favourite show. I think Dad likes to think of himself as a bit of a Tim Allen.

Tommy: I do like Tim Allen. Tim Allen's a great actor. Underrated, do you think? He's like played, played Sam.

Josh: All I know that very problematic nowadays. Yeah. Why? Just probably like nothing that wouldn't turn you off him.

Tommy: Okay. No, no.

Josh: Good, good, good. Like, but yeah, I think he's like slightly maybe controversial on some stuff. Yeah. But it's the removing an element of So, you know, the idea of a tryhard. Do you remember being a kid? Were you ever called—

Tommy: I'm looking at one.

Josh: Were you ever? No. So, the thing is—

Tommy: No, I wasn't called a tryhard.

Josh: So, in Australia, I don't know about gronks around the world if you've heard that phrase, a tryhard. It's funny, a tryhard.

Tommy: What would the American— I mean, it's probably closer to being tryhard in America. It'd be the translation in Italy or like— Well, it'll probably sound heaps nicer, you know.

Josh: But you really want to— are you thinking about moving to Italy? I feel like there's a lot of Italian themes.

Tommy: I mean, we're having gnocchi today. Yeah, fucking making that. I love— if I was to learn a language, it would go Italiano, and then it would go French and Spanish.

Jess: Okay, but it's just because Josh didn't ask you yesterday.

Tommy: No, that was what action I'd want. I'm talking about what language I'd like to—

Josh: yeah, yeah. What language? It's good because it sort of ties in nicely with your accent.

Jess: Yeah. You look Italian as well.

Tommy: Oui, oui. That's French.

Jess: No.

Josh: So, on the tryhard thing, it's clearly like in Australia, if you say you're a tryhard, it's not a good thing.

Tommy: Is it? Just thinking of tryhards back in the day.

Josh: What would—

Tommy: Explain to me, explain what a tryhard is in your eyes.

Josh: So, I think that if you just look at the phrase versus what it means, I think there's a distinction. So, I think a try-hard culturally, a try-hard is someone who is— I think that here's the details. I think that someone that maybe is trying hard optically to look a certain way.

Tommy: Yeah, that's a good description.

Josh: So, they're externally, they're trying to project a certain external appearance They're trying hard to do that.

Tommy: They buy all the gear for the thing but aren't— don't really care about this. But the thing is, it's the optics.

Josh: It's all optics. Yeah, a tryhard was a little bit more— it was more toxic because it was like if you were just giving it a crack, if you're actually just a little bit out there or doing something different, people could call you— I was called a tryhard. And if you think about it, it's like I was a try—

Tommy: like I was like trying hard, trying hard, which I don't think that's what they were No, I think young kids is the toxic. I know it's toxic, but it's more around like, you're a derp. Like you're a— There's something else. There's another ingredient beyond the trying of trying hard at something.

Josh: Maybe it's this. Is it a tryhard someone that is not naturally good at something, but they're giving it a crack? Yeah.

Tommy: Which when you paint it like that, it's really sad, isn't it? That young kids, other kids are saying that.

Jess: Do you want to know the real definition?

Tommy: Yeah, I'd love that.

Jess: A person usually of little talent who tries hard to succeed, especially through imitation, usually to gain fame or popularity. A person who is perceived as putting too much effort into something recreational, such as a game.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jess: You guys pretty much nailed it.

Tommy: Yeah, it's interesting because it is nuanced because it could change.

Josh: It's the optics bit, I think. So, the bit that I relate to.

Tommy: It's the type of person. So I wasn't called a tryhard, but why? I was trying hard. I was trying hard. Fucking, at the bowl, dude, maybe I felt real hard.

Josh: Maybe it felt more— maybe you looked more the part of what you were trying to do. So for instance, it's not nice either way to call people a tryhard.

Tommy: I haven't— you— I haven't called someone a tryhard.

Josh: It's a real sort of immature— yeah, yeah, tryhard.

Tommy: If you're trying hard with the podcast, good. That's actually a positive. Try hard. You've tried harder.

Josh: You've had a whole day, um, or like 18 hours or whatever since our episode, so you should be full of something like that. So you should sort of, um, reconciled all your thoughts and exactly how you feel. Um, any changes or anything? Like, the beauty— this is what I, what I love specifically about this format and why I think we gravitated to it so much is we say something one day, then we think about it in the evening, and then we come back the next day and we're like, I actually don't believe that anymore. Or he's in, he's in, he's more context.

Tommy: Well, I think, but, uh, yeah, you're totally right. Nothing I don't believe from yesterday. That's— but we have in the past done that. We believe one thing. Tomorrow I might want to learn Spanish as my first language because it might just be more applicable if I wanted to move to Mexico. You know, there's lots more integration with Spanish than Italian. No offence to the Italians. Love, love, love it. Lovely comments. Thank you for all the comments on Instagram. And so when you see the celebration happening, yeah, I think a lot of people who might be in the comments might not listen to the show. It's like there's a different audience. Why do you say that? And because I think some of them aren't, you know, tapped in all the time, they might have been there for the journey, and that's what they're there for. You— what you realise is people are there for the journey beyond necessarily the, the thing. So the podcast.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So they may have once listened, but then they just dig, dig the, uh, dig, dig the, um, the mission, and then they're supporters of the mission. Not saying any judgement to that, but it's Nice to see people we've never heard of before or people like you don't know who have been listening. So, there's that. There's the people who I probably know aren't listening, but as supporters, and that's awesome because that's a part of the pie. People who I don't know that have been listening but haven't been commenting that say, well done. And so, that is nice seeing that love.

Josh: Yeah. On YouTube as well, some lovely comments on YouTube.

Tommy: Especially YouTube, the people that you don't know, because a lot of people don't comment. A lot of people are passive listeners or viewers, especially on YouTube.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: You know, so it's really lovely. Thank you.

Josh: If someone came to you today, it's a terrible time for it, but they said, mate, I'm thinking about starting a podcast. Yeah. What would you say?

Tommy: Go for it. Yeah. Fuck yeah.

Josh: Any words of wisdom at this point? Or sort of insight, like you've done over 1,000 episodes, um, just even top level, like what's intuitively, what, where do you go?

Tommy: Um, start. Like, I, yeah, I mean, how many conversations have you had about starting the podcast? Um, if you've been talking about it for a while, it's probably a good time to get it going. Yeah, you don't have to be ready. Don't feel like what you're going to put out the first day, the 100th episode will be what it will be like in the future. It's, it's a journey and people might not listen.

Josh: And so it reminds me, Scooter, Scooter Derek's got a great studio, Castaway Studios, does podcasts and stuff, and he gets a lot of people coming in saying they want to do a podcast. And he said that The other day someone said, oh, you know, a mate and I want to start a podcast. You know, we don't think we're going to be Joe Rogan or anything.

Tommy: And Scooter's like, yeah, no, I figured most people aren't going to be Joe Rogan. Yeah, but maybe they need to say that. Maybe that's— they're saying that because they— there's a pressure inside that they think that they have to end up somewhere like Joe Rogan. It doesn't— everyone's on their own trip. And so, but you don't know what that is until you do your own thing. Something might really work. And there's a bunch of, like, the thing about Joe Rogan that is great is that he actually talks about how that show wasn't what he thought it was going to become. He did it with his mate. Like, he, you know, it was early. He was a very early adopter of that stuff in in respects that, like, looking at their video setup years ago, like, that was harder back then. That wasn't like now, you can use your laptop and plug in a microphone and have video of you and someone pretty easily. Yeah, like, that was harder back then. And so he pushed through. What about, like, you will get a reward if you push through over the years. Something will happen. What is that something?

Josh: Don't know. What do you think most people's biggest fear is with podcasting?

Tommy: I don't know what to say. I've got nothing to say. Maybe that's true, but you won't find out unless you do it. And, uh, the biggest fear is, um, who am I doing it with? How do I do it? Do I— I can't do it by myself. Like, all these are all beliefs. There's probably someone thinking, I can only do it by myself, I couldn't do it with somebody else, you know. And so, yeah.

Josh: Do you think— do you have a different perspective on failure, do you think, from before we started to today?

Tommy: Um, uh, not really.

Josh: What—

Tommy: because it— I failed plenty of times. I think if you're worried about—

Jess: if—

Tommy: yeah, I've never really thought the failure— thought about the failure thing. What does that mean? What does that— what does failure mean to you? When do you know you've failed?

Josh: I think it's this elusive thing that's not very clear, but I think a lot of people, including ourselves, have put a lot of emphasis on it. It's almost like it's a, um, it can be something that can keep you going, or it can be something that can hold you back. So, you know, speaking to friends where they're going to think like they're at a transitional period of their life and like when you break it all down, the biggest fear they have is failing. And then it's like, okay, well, what is failing? Failing is failing. Um, you know, this is in some regards a failure from with a certain lens.

Tommy: Um, but I do, yeah, I don't think you— if you, if you haven't done stuff in your life, maybe then there's a— you have a, a high fear of failure. Which would be something needing to work through to get started. Like, what— so what if in failure is a lot of thinking, thinking about what it means for you, what others are thinking? But if, but if you— yeah, if you can get to a point where you, you're not as deeply connected to the outcome as you may have once been before, or what? Yeah, it's, it's a weird one because someone can easily say we failed. I don't think that.

Josh: No, I don't think there's a— like, what, when you think about the podcast specifically, what were the— did the fears change for you over the course of the last 3 years, or what do you think the biggest sort of fears were for you?

Tommy: Um, Oh, it's not really. I mean, it hasn't— I don't— I haven't used that term fear in my mind.

Josh: What is it? What relates more?

Tommy: Um, I mean, I've, I've kind of— it's more— I— mine is more about what I'm capable of and Yeah, it's not fear though. It's not fear.

Josh: What is it?

Tommy: Um, yeah, I don't know.

Josh: It's, um, uncertainty.

Tommy: No, I mean, it's just what— doing the thing that I am enjoying. Like, but then, so the thing is, what you learn is— what I've learned, sorry, is, um, the thinking that goes on in your mind isn't necessarily the truth. And so it's a balance and a juggling act of when do you connect. And if you go deep into it, the thoughts you're thinking, connecting them to your identity, is the trap, is the ego, is where pain fucking exists. Because then if anything comes under attack that you've formed into your identity there's a lot of pain that resides there because that's— you're just constantly caught in it. So there's this thing of like doing and then feeling disconnected from it in a way where you're disconnected from the attachment to it. And so, which is— I, I, I've— the struggle is, um, how do you— how, how do you do anything then if you sort of get closer to truly believing that stuff? That we're not our thoughts, and, and the identity we hold and think about ourselves is just all thought. And, you know, and so it's like, so there—

Josh: but there's a version of a, of a, a type of person that is so enlightened or so sort of detached from storey and reality I find personally hard to communicate with, right? Where it's like communication needs to be based on some sort of foundational understanding of truth, or that there can be stories, or there is that sort of thing. So I think that when you talk about stories, I think where— because it's such a natural position for me to be in, which is thinking it all through, like thinking like the Daily Talk Show, like even those montages that JB puts together, for me, that's like a visual representation of the experience. For me, like, that's like when I, when, when I think about what we, uh, are doing and were doing, it was so, so much was connected into those dots. Um, and I think that obviously there's some negativity to an attachment to that, but then there's also—

Tommy: It's, I mean, it's negativity in the attachment to what that means for you as an individual. So, there's the journey. So, I think this is the thing. Someone can be fucking in a cave, completely detached from any storey meaning and thought. Doesn't— And then there's the version where you can go through life and have that balance. I don't know if that's the right word, but— Or have the have the experience that is less powered by that, less powered by the stories. They still happen.

Jess: You can't—

Josh: I mean, what about like an athlete that's going to the Olympics? What would a version be? Because I can imagine, say, if I was an athlete going to the Olympics, if you can— Golf in the Olympics?

Tommy: It should be.

Josh: There is, yeah. Golf is in the next Olympics. I don't know if it's always been that way.

Tommy: Surfing is too.

Josh: Rock climbing too. Yeah. Bouldering. Also, what's the dance where you spin on your head?

Tommy: Breakdancing.

Josh: Breakdancing in there as well. That's taken the piss. I love breakdancing.

Tommy: I did it as a kid.

Josh: So the— How's that chair for you, Jess? You can talk. The mic is on. It's actually more comfortable when you talk.

Jess: I know.

Josh: It's very creaky. Is that one of the shit chairs? How much are we selling that one for?

Tommy: No, that's a good chair. What have we done?

Jess: It could have been the table, to be honest.

Tommy: I think it's the table. Yeah, it's the table.

Josh: No, so the— So, I think about like as from an athlete perspective, the aim is you're going for gold.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. I think so.

Josh: Like there's this storey and that's like it's this weird. So, for instance, think about families when you get married, marriage or like long-term relationships. These are all stories. It's like It's all made up in a lot of ways, but it's like, I'm going to have a family, I'm going to do all of this. Like, that is a story. And so, there is— Stories are important and it's actually storeys is what the— Makes the whole world go by.

Tommy: But you, I mean, you're kind of referencing. So, I never thought to myself, I'm going to have kids, I'm not going to have kids. I just— didn't really touch it. I was like, I didn't have too much connection to either. And so the storey happens and unfolds with what, what, how life unfolds. The athlete thing— there is huge advantage to being captured by ego, identity, identification with your narrative, your thought to achieving. Look at some of the most— if the metric is gold, if the metric is success, money, there are some maniacs in this world that at all costs, at all costs.

Josh: And so what's life for then? What is life like?

Tommy: It's, it's—

Josh: what is it for you, do you think? What, um, So, if you don't go out thinking, I want kids or anything like that, then what, like, what is the— What's the— Not even the goal. Goal seems too sort of sterile or like too— Like, what's the point?

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, what is the point?

Josh: Do you have any thoughts?

Tommy: I mean, the point—

Josh: What's the point for you? Like, just, it's so hard to speak for anyone else. Like, what's the— Looking dark on you, but what is the— no, but because for me, I, I take so much in the storey of this, like, and you've, uh, you've seen the positives and the negative side from me of the storey of, oh, we're going to do this and this, and it's like that and that, and it's like, that's served us, it hasn't served us. Um, but I— the reason I ask is because I want to understand, or get that perspective, the operating system for me, that just to have everything based in a storey is so strong. That's like, it's so uncon—

Tommy: like, but that is it.

Josh: So the thing is, so for instance, when, uh, when we've spoken and you're like, I haven't worked out exactly what after, you know, post-show, you know, post all this stuff looks like, this— my thing is I'm like 'Oh, he's not ready to tell us his story, like what he wants to do yet.' But it's like, the weirdness is that I can't, like, my operating system— But yeah, I understand that's my flaw. Yeah, I just assume that's like, 'Oh, you're not— like, you know, but you're not telling me because it's like, how can you possibly?' But I understand that's ridiculous. Yeah, but that's because I'm like, I can't— like, so the idea of, um, yeah, like all that stuff, like the kids stuff, I think is a good example because it's like there's that version of you know, just like, oh, like it wasn't really planned, it just happened and that was a thing and all that sort of thing. Um, which I think is so— it's just so foreign. So I want to talk less, I want to understand like, what is the— what do you think that is? Has that always been— do you think you've always operated from that place?

Tommy: Yeah, I think I probably look out— I'm pro— I'm pro— I think just with a bunch of the things I consume and the practise I'm doing, I'm, I'm just looking at where I— where that is taking me. So where that— where the storey is actually taking me.

Josh: If you're hearing that noise, guys, it's not the office getting knocked down, um, it's just some construction across the road, potentially NBN maybe.

Tommy: Nah, it's a cherry picker. Yeah, it's a gutter. It's a scissor lift and they're fixing a gutter. I did hear a dripping drain all like yesterday.

Josh: You think it's related?

Tommy: I think they're fixing it. I think it was coming in. It was rusty.

Josh: Okay. Takes a lot. And so this— So, but yeah, so, so you're the guy—

Tommy: Naturally, I can go to— What am I?

Josh: No, no. I was going to say you were the guy who had a vision board of a TV presenter role where you're fucking cut out.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Like, like, so going from like this—

Tommy: 7 years ago. Yeah, I know, but the thing is, like, I actually, I don't know, I don't know where to land because I think there is a lot of suffering that comes from the attachment to these stories. And so when I see, so when I'm, when I'm Observing what's happening. So, if I think about, okay, for the future, what does it look like? What does it mean? Like, there is a version. I'm not saying don't think this through. You're asking something 3 days in to have an answer for the future, which—

Josh: Well, it's not. I think like the— And this is part of it. It's like—

Tommy: People don't have to have an answer. There is—

Josh: But it's not a threat. I think that the consideration is it's like, The— where we landed was for me personally, actually 2 and a half years of thinking, right? Like the thinking just came to a decision.

Tommy: That's a good storey for retrospectively looking at it.

Josh: But isn't that like, aren't we always like, we're always thinking, right? We're building context and we're trying to understand. It's not like one day we wake up and say, we're going to finish doing this thing. And it's like, I don't know what the future holds. Like, um, but this is why I'm not saying that it's wrong. What I'm saying is I find it interesting what is the, the difference between, um, that version of like the, um—

Tommy: So I think there's probably an, an operating— What I'm seeking is to try and operate more from the present than I am with my mind for the future, or looking at what, what has happened in the past and what that is meaning to me in my identity. So I look at how present I am with Amy, with my, my son, with what I'm doing, the activities I'm doing, what I'm not doing. And, and it's— and yes, there's importance to seeing what's ahead and what moves you want to make but there is an also an operation from a more present existence that can move you forward. It's not for everyone. I don't think that's for you. You said last week creativity comes from destruction. I think the opposite. Creativity can come from when there's a lot less noise and peace and you're more present. That's the complete opposite.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so that's cool.

Josh: Yeah. I think that the, the creativity destruction is about, um, you need to break stuff to make new things.

Tommy: That's a story. Yeah, that's your story. I don't think that's necessarily true. I don't think you have to smash apart, break. Like, that's not necessarily how it needs to happen. Just like someone who operates from a high place of anxiety that gets far in their business isn't— doesn't have to do it that way. There is options. There are multiple versions that work. That works for something like Jules Lundt, you know, that, that's worked for him. And yeah, and so yeah, I don't know. I mean, this is, um, this is a—

Josh: is it— is that a— is that a new— because like talking about the practise or whatever, if we go from episode 1 to where you are now, there's a huge amount of growth for you in regards to understanding what you practise is what you— your prioritisation looks like, all of that sort of stuff. So is that— is the storey stuff, is that developed thinking based on these experiences?

Tommy: Yeah, I definitely think so. Because it's like if you're not observing the storey and you're just existing in it, there's a level of, um, operating from, you know, that, that sort of, uh, you could say ego, but it's— which is in a negative because we all have it. But if you're— if it's consuming you and there's not a zoomed out lens to question all these things, what it even means, does it— it's like, it is just an experience, it is thought, it— like all these things. There is another place to operate from. Which I feel is what I'm more moving towards.

Josh: And so that looks like— I mean, it's not— life's not about everything being measured, but what's the awareness? Like, how do— what's the daily awareness practise to make sure that you're in alignment with what you— where you want to go? Or not even what you want to go, what you— the expectation.

Tommy: Like, I think there's too— there's so much thought in that. And a place of being present and awareness can bring the fruits. There's another, there's another, you know, which like, I'm not there yet, but I think what you're saying is think about nothing.

Josh: That's what, that's where I land with these conversations is it's like the And this is just because we think differently, which is fine. But what I'm trying to understand is it's like, and maybe that's the biggest thing, maybe I try too hard to understand. Maybe it's like everyone's on their own journey. Don't worry. Don't worry about it. But I think that has been— this conversation right now is really the the battle that you and I have tried to understand. Like, you know, it's the pulling nature of me wanting to, you know, understand what the future's like. And then there's the fucking just show up. And I— the show up stuff has worked.

Tommy: I see how much pain there is in thinking about the future, like, to when it consumes you. All, like, all pain mentally, a lot of it is because we're worried about what's happening next and what's up, what's in the future, or we're thinking about what the fuck we did in the past and how it should have been different. If there just is presence, whether it's for 10 minutes, because you will be swept back into it, that is— there's peace in that. That changes the operating system at which when you come back into it and it dis— and it, and it de-energizes a lot of the connection to the storeys and the identity. That's the practice. Not saying I fucking do it perfectly, but that's my goal for the moment. So using that, which makes me a better father, a better husband, a better business partner, like all these things. I don't think I would have survived the last couple of years if I wasn't doing that. I think about myself fucking 5 years ago and how, how I wasn't. It's like a different fucking head I had on me, a different mind. I don't know what I would have been doing each day when I wasn't thinking about then vision boards, fucking what I'm doing, what, what, what I'm probably looking like. All these things that are just if, if you, if you can't break the spell of the thought, you are the thinking, and that is your identity, and that is operating from a place of ego. Like, that's it swallowing you all up. And I've done a lot of that in my life, and I see the trappings of it, I see the dangers of it, I see the other side to another way of operating that is much more peaceful and feels like achievement.

Josh: How do you make decisions If you're not thinking about the future.

Tommy: Well, I'm not saying you don't ever think about these things.

Josh: So, what's the distinction?

Tommy: Don't live in the future.

Josh: So, then not living in the future, like I think that there's a—

Tommy: It's a painful existence living in the future when you are only ever in this moment now. Like how— Like, and so—

Josh: So, for me, I lived I lived in the future based on— so if, you know, for us, we were in a position where it felt like we hadn't worked it all out yet, right? Which you never work it all out. But the, the thinking around the future is what are the things that we can do? It's not about like, I can't fucking wait until— it's what can we do now to move things in a position that helps you in the future. Like if you go to buy a house, for instance, what— like there is a day where you are buying a house, or there's heaps of things that you do where it doesn't serve you right now, but it will serve you in the future. And so that's what I'm trying to work out, is I think that what you're describing with the vision board stuff, that's one extreme of, you know, what that meant for you. But I think that there's— there is a version in between where you are now and where you were, which is stories. Stories are powerful connectors and a way of synthesising this fucked up world. Like, under— like, being able— like, I think that the, the criticism, which is fair on me, is that optimism bias, or like my ability to have a shit situation and be like, create a good storey out of it. And if storey then impacts—

Tommy: So that's my go-to as well. But I also just understand that there's something else other than that, which is the experience. And it— And so if— But if you're—

Josh: So wouldn't the experience though—

Tommy: If you're super negative about your experience, it's highly productive to be have an optimistic lens on it. I'm not super negative about my situation, so I'm speaking for myself. I understand when I— if I wanted to start carving this positive storey right now about everything in the future, that is cool too. But I'm okay because I'm not over here suffering in my situation.

Josh: Do you not feel like— because this is—

Tommy: because I don't feel like I need to at this moment.

Josh: That's why I think that I What I always find interesting is it's like, it does feel like it is, like, which is also completely fine. Like, it doesn't feel great, or it's like, it does, it's not, but like, there is suffering involved. And so like, I think that that's the, the bit that I struggle with because it's like you can't have friends helping you or talking and that sort of thing. You feel like with that sort of like You're like, we're both suffering with the change, which is fine, but the yelling louder—

Tommy: You might be like, I'm not, I don't think.

Josh: And so this is the, this is the thing. I think that like, I'm suffering.

Tommy: So there's more of a—

Josh: There's an intensity to you at the moment with the changes that are happening, which makes sense. And there's— and I would be showing it in other ways too. But I think that bringing that energy and saying there's no suffering, it's all good—

Tommy: I'm asking you, is there suffering?

Josh: Yeah, I think that— I don't know, I can't answer that.

Tommy: That's what you're saying when you're saying there's suffering. You're speaking for yourself.

Josh: Well, so what I'm seeing is a mate who doesn't want to talk But hang on, this is you projecting your thinking onto me. I'm saying how you're making me feel.

Tommy: Which is you, not me.

Josh: And so the thing is that like when you are in existence in a partnership.

Tommy: But that has been like, that in its essence has been about a lot of this podcast, like the effects that it is on you, but from external people that aren't you, which So you're saying you have no control over a situation, other people?

Josh: Well, I'm saying that's what you do.

Tommy: You do have control when other people are feeling a certain way. It doesn't have to fucking sweep kick you under that you're then gone based on someone else.

Josh: But I think the thing—

Tommy: and so this is where I don't think I would have survived the last couple of years if I'd had that approach in this relationship. And this environment. Yeah, because that's where it can't— like, yeah, you can't— if you're— if, if external people are the problem and, and, and the thing that rattles you, there's another version to that.

Josh: I think that we are all living beings that are trying to work out what life is.

Tommy: Of course, but that's what— like, this is no judgment, there's just two operating systems that are different. And so the thing is, you're not understanding 'Uh, which you don't need to.' But then you— but when you layer it like, 'You're suffering over there,' that's the thing, is because I can't understand how the— you know, you not thinking—

Josh: 'Are you okay?' 'Yeah, I'm okay.' And so I think that that's like— I think the, the hard bit is, and this is, this is the hardest bit, um, to reconcile, is it's like when you have friends or you're— and and you feel like you're feeling an energy or you're feeling like things aren't okay. And, and the—

Tommy: We've had tougher times mentally than this. Yeah. And so, and so this is where I think when, when it's like you stop something, it's like people see and say, are you okay? Like, you know, there are—

Josh: Is there a— Is there an element though that could just be Um, uh, so if someone, you know, someone at the service station asks, how are you? You don't need to give them the full spiel.

Tommy: Thanks, man.

Josh: Yeah. Is there, is there an element where, where I take it down to like— because spending 2 or 3 years, like, or, you know, 4 years when you consider outside of the Daily Talk Show, we've spent a lot of time together. We've spent a lot of— and And, and it's interesting. I think that this is such an— I don't know where I land with it.

Tommy: I think that because you're looking at how you operate and I operate and there's the clash of I'm not doing it like you because— and then that doesn't make sense for you and it doesn't make sense for me how you'd like— why you would approach something like that. And so that's where it's—

Josh: How do you have productive Conversation—

Tommy: like, so when, so when, when individuals impact other individuals, when you're part of a team or partnership or relationship or a marriage, manage you, manage you, manage the storeys you're telling yourself, manage how you're connecting dots, how you're, um, self-managing, how you're taking care of yourself. Like, that's all you have, that's all you have.

Josh: And so, but so there's the self-management And then there's like communicating for the purpose of progress. Where does that— where does that— because I understand that it's not about having these crazy outcomes or to change anyone or to, to do all that sort of thing, but there is a— when you're coexisting, you co-collaborate, when you're doing all of this sort of stuff, um, co-creating Um, I, yeah, I feel like I've— and we've said, you and I both agree that I feel the room. I feel how the people in the room are feeling. And the thing is that I think that the feedback is that I shouldn't allow that to negatively impact me. And I just don't think that I can ever get to that point.

Tommy: If I can't— I think you can, dude. I think You totally can.

Josh: I don't think I ever want to be there because I think that that for me, that's, that's where relationships, where empathy, where—

Tommy: I don't think it is though. I totally think there's a complete other operating system that exists.

Josh: What is it?

Tommy: Just not having it—

Josh: Toughen up?

Tommy: Not at all. Not at all. Why? There's nothing about toughening up. It's nothing about toughening up.

Josh: Then how would you describe it?

Tommy: It's not an attack on your identity. It's not an attack to Josh as an existing thing when other people are like this.

Josh: So I think that that's where it gets missed, is like, I'm not saying, hey, you know, like there's certain people that will say, oh, like, oh, what have I done wrong? Oh, like, you know, they'll just keep saying like, I feel like I've— and that's more annoying than the fuck. It's like, mate, You haven't done anything wrong. I'm just in a shit mood, but you're actually pissing me off now. I'm not saying that. It's purely like friend to friend, business partner to business partner. How do you, how do you communicate? And the thing, and I think that what I really want out of all of this, and I, I, there's a, I've got to have a detachment because it's like, I can't, uh, I can't, um, tell you or expect for you to communicate the way that I want to be communicated to, but just I would love the tools and understanding to how to— so it might not be saying, are you ready?

Tommy: You see the different— you see the— it's two operating systems coexisting. I'm like, the dots don't need to be connected. Like, this is the opposite of what you do. So those tools aren't natural. The ask is too big for a lot of those things. And so that's really, really hard. And it's the success of this podcast, you know, has been based on the differences a lot of the time.

Josh: And I think that that's what's made it.

Tommy: Yeah, no, exactly, exactly. And so, but you don't, you don't need to be more like me. I don't need to be more like you. It's like, I can't, but that's not our job to, it's not your job to fucking change me. It's not my job to change you..

Josh: And so they're about different operating. And so yeah, is there a, is there a possible toolkit to make it less painful to, for two individuals that are so different to communicate and to understand and to empathize?

Tommy: I, I mean, I don't have an answer. I don't have, I don't, I don't know. I mean, you could say things like, but it all then comes back to like my operating system. So it's like, fucking meditate more, dude. That's such a dumb thing. You're like, think more, dude. Think things through. Think about the future. Like, these aren't productive things, but they would be if we wanted each other to think like each other or to operate from a place that we're both operating from.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so that's, that's complex because.

Josh: Yeah, it's so complex because it's not like I think that the answer I don't think is that everyone thinks the same, but I think there's a way of coexisting anyway.

Tommy: But that is it. But it's also navigating things. It's also The tools are when you and I have some experience, how do I not let that fucking get to me? How do you say something to me that could be taken as like a real slap in the face, vice versa, and not let that hold, you know, as much energy and stay as long? Like, these are all things like that are tools. And so I have a bunch of these things that I, that I know work in coexisting with somebody who communicates differently.

Josh: Well, maybe it's okay to feel those things.

Tommy: I'm not saying it's not. There's no judgement in it. It's just like, if you nut down to what is it, what is that feeling inside, not being that feeling inside. So what is it? Not what, not how am I it. And what— and operating from that place of that's it, and that's swallowing you up. And then what is the energy there? How do you give something the half-life?

Josh: I wonder if it's like the, um, there could be a numbness to that approach where it's like it almost feels like—

Tommy: no, I think it's a complete awareness that the feeling's there. And but it's a—

Josh: where does it work in regards— so there's self-awareness and then an awareness of, uh, how you make other people feel. So that idea of not taking on how other people feel, where does then the awareness of how you're making people feel fit into the operating system?

Tommy: But there's a, there's an awareness. So self-awareness, awareness is layered. You can, you can understand and think the self is No, I get myself, I understand myself. But then that's a— there could be a layer of like attachment to the self that you think you know, and then a version maybe in a different place which is observing that awareness that you have on yourself. And then there could be another version of awareness, so it's operating from I mean, this is like, this is the things that I listen to and read and sort of feel like I'm understanding more to these layers.

Josh: And how has it helped you?

Tommy: I think it's helped a bunch. I think it's helped exponentially. Exponentially? Exponentially. Exponentially. Jess, exponentially?

Josh: Um, yeah, sure. She's not sure.

Jess: She just said I wanted to go upstairs halfway through all of that. You got something to do?

Tommy: You got something to do?

Jess: No, it was just painful.

Josh: Really? Why?

Jess: I just feel like you both come, you always come from just two completely different perspectives, and it's hard to watch because I can see what you both need, but you're both, you're arguing over—

Tommy: I'm not even arguing, we're just pointing out different views.

Jess: I'm sorry, it's the cutting in for me. Um, you both always come at things so differently But I think in terms of communication, like, what do you need from each other? That's what you're not talking about. I think that's what the key is. You're both talking about how each other communicates, but you're not saying, Tommy, what I need from you is this. And Tommy, you're not saying that to Josh as well. Like, you might need a break to process what's going on with everything at the moment and where you want to take your next step. And you might want to be present. And Josh, you might want to look to the future, but you're not talking about that with each other. You're expecting each other to know.

Josh: Well, I think there's a respect. I think that the— and what we've spoken about is that the— there's an element of when you're trying to communicate, like what you and I trying to work out how our communication styles can be potentially adjusted to better work in the circumstance, like in for one another. January 2020, we had a specific conversation where it's like you were very clear, which I appreciate, which is like, I don't want to talk so much about all of this future stuff or fucking all of that type of thing. I just want to like head down, do stuff. I don't want to be talking about it. I don't want to be strategizing or thinking or dreaming. I just want to fucking do it. Which I understand. Um, but there was like, there was also the other version from, uh, episode 100 to 500 where it was all, all about that. It was where could it go, what could we, what could we be doing.

Tommy: Um, yeah, it's slightly sort of threaded with no context of where it had come from. So too much going around in circles, wasting hours talking about stuff where it, it's— because there is not— there is a point to which it can be productive and a point to which it can be counterproductive. And if the suffering is coming from way too much, then it's like— it's— see, this is the thing, don't get me wrong, there's a place to think about the future, there's a place to write goals, there's a like There's all of that.

Josh: The biggest friction, I think, is what I was always seeking was to be on the same page. Not to necessarily think the same way or to want the same things, but to be on the same page of where we were headed. And I think that that is hard with how we both communicate. Is that— do you think that's fair?

Tommy: Not really. But that doesn't matter. Like, because I don't think— I think there's so many times where it literally simplified down to what we talked about earlier. But then there's so much like, how is it not on the same page for a bunch of the time? That's how you— that's how we've kept it going. And so there is— but it's just how you thread it, how your mind connects the dots and why it isn't on the same page, you know, all this stuff.

Josh: And so Jess, your feedback on us.

Tommy: So that's true. That's a good piece of feedback.

Josh: And so what does that look like for you then? What do you need from me?

Tommy: To finish up the show today.

Josh: Yeah. And I think that that's the thing. It's the, the, the default normally is not, not now. Let's not talk about that now.

Tommy: This is like painting me in this person that doesn't talk, hasn't talked all we've fucking done for the last years and years is talked. So that—

Josh: which it doesn't fit, which is how we're so different because it feels like, yeah, yeah, like there's definitely, yeah, less that we've been able to do.

Tommy: But I, I understand what you're saying, Jess.

Jess: I mean, an observation of mine since working here has always been that we, we do, we talk a lot, but we never resolve a lot. I think that's the way.

Josh: And that's the same painting, that's the on the same page. So we can talk a lot and then, um, you can talk a lot and not really be painting what is needing to be resolved. Like, well, because there's a true— so there's a version which is like, this is what I want to do, but if the other business partner is not completely on board or not sure, or if it's like, like this And this is the thing is that like, um, but that hasn't been the case. Yeah, I think that the— no, I think there's a, uh, um, the— where I am not good at the thinking that I do, trans— like translating other people's thinking and incorporating it in, in a way that works in a good way, like specifically with how you and I operate, which is because I think that the, the feedback I've received is it's like, um, I try. So for instance, looking at this case, you tell me I'm all good, I, I, there is no suffering. Whereas like for me, which, uh, I wonder if there is a place for it or not, is I feel like I see suffering and that's okay. How can I help? What's that like? And so the thing is that, uh, I very rarely take—

Tommy: but I pointed out there's been times of 10x suffering compared to now. So you're saying I'm suffering now? I've felt 100 times worse and I don't even like— and so how does that make sense for you? Like when I say that I— that there's not immense suffering, I think I'm optimistic about the future whether it's hard or not. And my feeling to it, yeah, that can happen. You can do that. Yeah, that is an existence that shit can be hard and it's not that hard. It doesn't feel that hard. I'm not fucking— I'm not crazy worried about things.

Jess: Yeah.

Tommy: You know, it's like, yeah, that is an existence too.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. I think like these conversations, I think like what I appreciate is that you'll have them because it is like this plays to, like this plays to my strength in regard, like I understand the feeling that you have, which is like, uh, this type of conversation plays to my strength in the way that I communicate. So yeah.

Tommy: Which, yeah, I mean, I appreciate that you have these conversations. No, I do too, because I think it helps me solidify more of the experience I'm having in the practise and the path I'm on, which it, you know, it can do that for you or not. That's not for me to pick up that. But Jess, how was the show notes today? Did you nail out— this should be at least 100 there.

Jess: There's quite a few today.

Tommy: If you just want to jump through, just thank Jess.

Josh: Hi@thedailytalkshow.com. We've been getting some lovely emails. We'll sort of, I think maybe tomorrow— sorry, do your call to action.

Tommy: Oh yeah, any questions, any feedback, any love, hi@thedailytalkshow.com.

Josh: We'll put them all together and we'll, I think tomorrow, let's do a bit Q&A sort of thing.

Tommy: Tomorrow, Friday, yep.

Josh: Black Friday. So he's cool with that. We don't have to, right?

Tommy: Is it 3 weeks of this?

Josh: No, no, no, no. I'm cool. It's 2 weeks, isn't it?

Tommy: Uh, 2 weeks from tomorrow. We've got 11 shows left, guys. Yeah, from tomorrow.

Josh: Have a good one, guys.

Tommy: See you guys.